Does anyone wish to admit they claimed to be agnostic when they are an atheist?

Senex · 30th April 2007, 11:35 AM

I'll admit I identified myself to many people for the last few years as an agnostic when I was, in fact, an atheist. My motivation was to make it easier for the religious people I admire to find my beliefs easier to accept.

I no longer find that necessary or care about the consequences. I wonder if anyone has a similar attitude/experience to share?

Piscivore · 30th April 2007, 11:39 AM

I claim to be all kinds of things. Some of them are even occasionally true.

But I don't ever recall claiming I was agnostic. I may have for a couple weeks in college claimed to be agnostic, but what I really mostly was at that time was full of s[rule 8].

JoeTheJuggler · 30th April 2007, 11:44 AM

I'm only "out" as an atheist among certain people and groups of people. I still find most people have a distorted idea of what atheism is.

One friend of mine swears that he read a news story about the atheists building a great big church somewhere.

thomps1d · 30th April 2007, 12:08 PM

I've never actually outright lied to somebody about my lack of religious belief.

I have, however, gone to good lengths to divert the conversation away from that particular topic when it comes up.

Person: Well, I was raised as a Christian, so I plan to do the same to my children. What about you?

thomps1d: Squee! Squibble squibble squoo!

Person: Whaaaaa?

thomps1d: I concur wholeheartedly. So, what did you think of last night's episode of Popular Reality Show?

Kochanski · 30th April 2007, 01:49 PM

I hid behind the label agnostic for quite a few years. It was just easier, most people have no idea what agnostic means whereas many people "think" they know what atheist means.

After I read The God Delusion I decided not to hide anymore. I decided that if people are uncomfortable with the term atheist, that is their problem. They will have to just accept me for who I am and perhaps in the process they will unlearn some of their prejudice.

roger · 30th April 2007, 01:53 PM

I have no anecdotes, but I'll point out that I just state that I don't believe in God, and never use the terms agnostic or atheist. Even on this site we have endless threads on the meanings of those two words, and I've never witnessed a consenous. "I don't believe in God" states your position without the baggage of philosophy or a dictionary fight. There is also my perception that people often associate perjoratives with atheist, such as devil worship or other things. Why rile somebody up unnecessarily?

Khyron · 30th April 2007, 02:13 PM

I usually will lie to people who I consider well-intentioned but self-deluded. I will claim or allow them to assume that I share their flavor of religiosity.

Most people don't come right out and ask. When it does come up, I will say that I am questioning or skeptical of religion, rather than atheist. This is more true anyway - my attitude is very much related to their teachings, not to the (imaginary) higher being their teachings claim exists.

How far I push it depends on whether they're someone I think can handle it and still remain civil with me, and whether I'm going to have to do business with them in the future.

Madalch · 30th April 2007, 02:49 PM

I've had people tell me that I wasn't an atheist, but an agnostic.

slingblade · 30th April 2007, 02:54 PM

I was agnostic for a few years. I no longer believed the specifics of my religion, but I still believed there was some kind of god out there.

So I switched to paganism and wicca for a while.

The common thread there was my belief in magical thinking.
When I gave that up, the belief in a god went with it.

ksbluesfan · 30th April 2007, 03:04 PM

For me, the conversation usually goes something like this:

Interrogator: What religion or you?
Me: I'm not religious. I'm an atheist.
Interrogator: So, you think it's impossible that God exists, right?
Me: I believe it is highly improbable that there is a God.
Interrogator: Then you're "agnostic".
Me: Whatever.

Ginarley · 30th April 2007, 03:08 PM

I've always been an atheist but when I was younger if I got in discussions about religion I wasn't confident enough to adopt the hard line atheist approach so I'd hide being agnosticism. Now clarity is much more important for me and my confidence is much higher so if someone is offended by me being an atheist then thats their problem

JoeTheJuggler · 30th April 2007, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by slingblade

I was agnostic for a few years. I no longer believed the specifics of my religion, but I still believed there was some kind of god out there.

Nit-picking, but wouldn't that make you a theist rather than an agnostic at that point?

slingblade · 30th April 2007, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Nit-picking, but wouldn't that make you a theist rather than an agnostic at that point?

I dunno. I never heard the term theist until I came to this forum. Does it really matter?

I once believed in the christian god, then I believed in pagan gods and goddesses, and now I don't believe any of it.

Call it what you like.

Senex · 30th April 2007, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by slingblade

I was agnostic for a few years. I no longer believed the specifics of my religion, but I still believed there was some kind of god out there.

So I switched to paganism and wicca for a while.

The common thread there was my belief in magical thinking.
When I gave that up, the belief in a god went with it.

Not that long ago I gave paganism a thought. I wanted to belong to a community like Congregationalists do but not have to believe in a god. I wanted to go to a meeting and say "Go Earth," "Spring, Summer, Fall" or "Winter." I also wanted to meet some loose pagan women. hehehehe...

I did a bit of research before the first meeting and read that these people believe in spells and sell candles, books and alter pieces to people. I could tell it was a scam before I ever walked into the church. You have to pay to take courses to increase your spiritual knowledge. Scam, scam, scam scam...

If you can't trust pagans what religion can you trust?

I'll tell you -- None!

Gord_in_Toronto · 30th April 2007, 06:55 PM

Pah! About 30 years ago I was injured in a skiing accident and was taken to the then Roman Catholic hospital in Ottawa. The Sister doing the admitting asked me my religion was and I said "Atheist". I took a look at what she had written on the form and saw an "A". I said, "You better not put that, they'll think I'm an Anglican." She said , in a nice French accent, "That is not an "A", that is an "Aitch"." Heretic? Heathen?

They put my leg back together just fine.

EeneyMinnieMoe · 30th April 2007, 07:02 PM

I know I'm an agnostic. I know cause I tried being an atheist when I was like 12 and it didn't work for me.

A skeptic is supposed to be open to possibility and remain neutral until they see evidence and that's what an agnostic is.

I just don't claim to know if there is a God or if there isn't, you know.

Wowbagger · 30th April 2007, 07:08 PM

I still call myself a "scientific agnostic", but when quizzed what that means I say "de facto Athiest" (a la Dawkins). They mean the same thing: I admit science can not test whether God exists or not, but the chances of him doing so are rather slim, and for practical purposes non-existant.

Although, sometimes I still call myself an "armchair scientist", most people don't see that as a religious option.

And, those times when I need to be really diplomatic, I might be inclined to call myself a "secular Jew". But, that hasn't happened, yet.

Fronzel · 30th April 2007, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by ksbluesfan

Interrogator: Then you're "agnostic".
Me: Whatever.

Which is where mine tend to go if I don't say "None of your business". I tend to compound the agnostic accusations because I do admit that I am willing to be convinced that I am wrong and could possibly find something clicks and makes me think it is the One True Way. But I also secretly hope to find a chest full of pirate gold in my yard. That doesn't make me a treasurist.

Originally Posted by Senex

Not that long ago I gave paganism a thought

I think I've mentioned I want to find the weirdest and most obscure religion possible so I can whine and bitch about oppression like the 93% Christian minority. Plus I can make up arbitrary rules when I don't want to do something. "It is against my religion to read emails marked 'FYI' or contain more then 12 spelling errors. I'm sorry."

thaiboxerken · 30th April 2007, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

I just don't claim to know if there is a God or if there isn't, you know.

But do you believe there is a god?

If no, you are atheist.
If yes, you are theist.

There are no other valid answers to this question.

Also, agnostic is a position about what you think people can know, it has nothing to do with belief in a god or not.

I'm atheist, which means I don't believe in any gods. I'm also a skeptic. I'll be glad to believe in any gods that can be shown to exist, but until then, I simply can't believe gods exist. Replace "gods" with "psychics", "pixies" or any other mythical beings and creatures to illustrate my point.

EeneyMinnieMoe · 30th April 2007, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

But do you believe there is a god?

If no, you are atheist.
If yes, you are theist.

There are no other valid answers to this question.

Also, agnostic is a position about what you think people can know, it has nothing to do with belief in a god or not.

I'm atheist, which means I don't believe in any gods. I'm also a skeptic. I'll be glad to believe in any gods that can be shown to exist, but until then, I simply can't believe gods exist. Replace "gods" with "psychics", "pixies" or any other mythical beings and creatures to illustrate my point.

I'm also sure that any deities would be unknowable to science. So, yes, I'm an agnostic.

I used to believe there was one. Then I really didn't know, honest to God (sorry, old habit

) . I'm not being afraid to call myself an atheist here.

Now, I don't even care.

To answer you, though, it's not yes or no but maybe.

sesshin · 30th April 2007, 07:53 PM

I am technically an atheist, in that I do not believe in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic concept of God, but I would never call myself one. I tell people I am agnostic or nontheist because I feel that is a more correct description of my beliefs.

To me there is just too much baggage associated with the word atheist. Religious people automatically assume that you are anti-religion, even if thats not the case. Then all the anti-religious people who loudly proclaim they are atheists further reinforce the stereotype.

I am not anti-religion, I just simply don't choose to believe in any . I think that is an important distinction to make.

agnostic/nontheist (weak atheism) as opposed gnostic/atheist (strong atheism)

thaiboxerken · 30th April 2007, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

To answer you, though, it's not yes or no but maybe.

That's just dishonest. There is no maybe in a belief question. You either believe or you don't.

Ginarley · 30th April 2007, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by sessbj

I am technically an atheist, in that I do not believe in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic concept of God, but I would never call myself one. I tell people I am agnostic or nontheist because I feel that is a more correct description of my beliefs.

To me there is just too much baggage associated with the word atheist. Religious people automatically assume that you are anti-religion, even if thats not the case. Then all the anti-religious people who loudly proclaim they are atheists further reinforce the stereotype.

I am not anti-religion, I just simply don't choose to believe in any . I think that is an important distinction to make.

agnostic/nontheist (weak atheism) as opposed gnostic/atheist (strong atheism)

I'm all for taking the word back rather than avoiding the term. Once people realise atheism does not equate to church burning rampant and debauchery the word will eventually lose its taint.

EeneyMinnieMoe · 30th April 2007, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

That's just dishonest. There is no maybe in a belief question. You either believe or you don't.

No, it's not. I asked myself your question and I honestly can't say I don't. I'm being very emotionally honest with you.

thaiboxerken · 30th April 2007, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

No, it's not. I asked myself your question and I honestly can't say I don't. I'm being very emotionally honest with you.

No, you aren't. A person either believes in a god or they don't. It's that simple. There is no "maybe" in believing if a god exists or not. You might think that maybe one exists, but you still either believe one exists or not.

chris epic · 30th April 2007, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kochanski

most people have no idea what agnostic means

no pun intended

bignickel · 30th April 2007, 10:50 PM

An agnostic is someone who doesn't believe that any evidence/experience/reasoning can establish the existence of the supernatural. An atheist/non-theist is someone who doesn't believe in the existence of the supernatural.

One can, like Michael Shermer, be both: an agnostic non-theist. To the theist, the agnostic position is much worse than simply being an atheist/non-theist. The agnostic can never be convinced one way or the other, not matter what evidence/experience/reasoning is thrown at him. He's a complete waste of time to preachers.

bignickel · 30th April 2007, 10:54 PM

A quick note: I agree that with theist or atheist/non-theist, there is no possible fence sitting.

Theism is a rather exclusive club: if you don't believe in the supernatural (re: god/s), then you're outside the group. Everyone else who is not a theist, is, by definition, atheist/non-theist. If you're not sure about the existence of god/s, don't ever think about god/s because t/he/y have no meaning in your life, can't make up your mind about the existence of the supernatural... you're not a theist. Sorry. You have to believe to be able to join that club. So, you're out here with most of us (on this board, anyway).

kellyb · 30th April 2007, 11:11 PM

I only call myself agnostic when I don't want to frighten someone. Most of the time I go with atheist, though.
Technically, I'm somewhere in between most of the time, but some days I just sort of "feel" like maybe there is some kind of deist god of some sort, and other days, I'm pretty darned sure there is no god.

The Great Hairy One · 1st May 2007, 12:00 AM

I've always been an atheist, and always described myself as one. Although I used to be a fire-and-brimstone, screaming fundamental atheist, now I'm much more mellow.

Cheers,
TGHO

PenguinWarrior · 1st May 2007, 01:34 AM

I've never claimed to be agnostic. Online I tend to use atheist (pushed that way by the terminology of this board, I guess), in person I'll say either "I don't believe in God" or "I'm not religious" if it comes up (which it rarely does, honestly). If I'm in the right mood I might even say Secular Humanist, which is how I described myself to the Jehovah's Witnesses who came round the other day (although that was because I reckoned they were less likely to try the hard sell with a positive label than with merely "I don't believe" as the first tends to sound like more thought has gone into it (not necessarily true, of course, but it just SOUNDS that way)).

l0rca · 1st May 2007, 01:36 AM

That was me for a couple of months with my family. I eventually came around to being more stern with my atheism when I found compelling arguments to be involved in humanist causes. When I was honest with my family, I've recieved criticism about how I was "too young to understand god", and I would come back around. But noboby has treated me different because of it.

canadarocks · 1st May 2007, 04:38 AM

I guess that I am a "De Facto" atheist. I agree with the statement: "I cannot know for certain, but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life under the assumption that there is no God". To my wife, this is still agnostic (i.e., I don't know). I usually tell strangers and coworkers that I am not religious (but a few have correctly guessed my stance).

roger · 1st May 2007, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by roger

Even on this site we have endless threads on the meanings of those two words, and I've never witnessed a consenous.

As I said earlier in this thread. And once again, we are having a dictionary fight.

tkingdoll · 1st May 2007, 05:01 AM

I don't really care for labels like this, but if pushed I will self-identify as an atheist, just because other people seem to like to compartmentalise. My preferred response to the question "do you believe in God?" is "which one?".

MRC_Hans · 1st May 2007, 05:15 AM

If pressed, I will identify myself as agnostic, because that, IMO, is the proper scientific position: The putative existence of God is unconfirmed, but not disproven.

Generally, I prefer to just say that I'm not religious.

Hans

Orangutan · 1st May 2007, 05:20 AM

I'm agnostic. however my current level of believe that i will ever see any proof of the existence of a supernatural creator(s) is 0. So I call myself atheist. If someone has a problem with that label, I explain why I use it instead of agnostic. I don't think many people have though about the fact that just because I say I'm agnostic doesn't mean I give even odds on God. So I think Atheist better defies my view.

Beerina · 1st May 2007, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

I'll be glad to believe in any gods that can be shown to exist

I won't be glad. If a god existed, and it was more or less similar to the Western God, I'd be pretty damned horrified that such a terrible creature existed and was in charge of things. A god "who is love" doesn't torture almost everybody who ever lived, for ever and ever.

Marquis de Carabas · 1st May 2007, 08:57 AM

Agnostic and atheist are not mutually exclusive, and I am both. Which one I use, if either, at any given time is dependent upon circumstance and the effect I wish to have on the listener. In general, I'd rather go with I don't believe in god, but sometimes a nice one-word response is called for.

ClintonHammond · 1st May 2007, 09:45 AM

If asked about "Ghawd" I say the same thing William Gibson says about cyberspace....

There's no THERE there...

If it offends some DLDs, that's their problem, not mine.

30th April 2007, 11:35 AM	#1
Senex Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 2,346	Does anyone wish to admit they claimed to be agnostic when they are an atheist? I'll admit I identified myself to many people for the last few years as an agnostic when I was, in fact, an atheist. My motivation was to make it easier for the religious people I admire to find my beliefs easier to accept. I no longer find that necessary or care about the consequences. I wonder if anyone has a similar attitude/experience to share?

30th April 2007, 11:39 AM	#2
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 21,203	I claim to be all kinds of things. Some of them are even occasionally true. But I don't ever recall claiming I was agnostic. I may have for a couple weeks in college claimed to be agnostic, but what I really mostly was at that time was full of s[rule 8].
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30th April 2007, 11:44 AM	#3
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 13,050	I'm only "out" as an atheist among certain people and groups of people. I still find most people have a distorted idea of what atheism is. One friend of mine swears that he read a news story about the atheists building a great big church somewhere.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

30th April 2007, 01:49 PM	#5
Kochanski Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Anonymous Unimportant Place (not a secret Scorpion training facility for Shosuro ninjas) Posts: 2,154	I hid behind the label agnostic for quite a few years. It was just easier, most people have no idea what agnostic means whereas many people "think" they know what atheist means. After I read The God Delusion I decided not to hide anymore. I decided that if people are uncomfortable with the term atheist, that is their problem. They will have to just accept me for who I am and perhaps in the process they will unlearn some of their prejudice.
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30th April 2007, 02:13 PM	#7
Khyron Scholar Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 97	I usually will lie to people who I consider well-intentioned but self-deluded. I will claim or allow them to assume that I share their flavor of religiosity. Most people don't come right out and ask. When it does come up, I will say that I am questioning or skeptical of religion, rather than atheist. This is more true anyway - my attitude is very much related to their teachings, not to the (imaginary) higher being their teachings claim exists. How far I push it depends on whether they're someone I think can handle it and still remain civil with me, and whether I'm going to have to do business with them in the future.
Khyron Scholar Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 97

30th April 2007, 12:08 PM	#4
thomps1d Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Regina, SK, Canada Posts: 193	I've never actually outright lied to somebody about my lack of religious belief. I have, however, gone to good lengths to divert the conversation away from that particular topic when it comes up. Person: Well, I was raised as a Christian, so I plan to do the same to my children. What about you? thomps1d: Squee! Squibble squibble squoo! Person: Whaaaaa? thomps1d: I concur wholeheartedly. So, what did you think of last night's episode of Popular Reality Show?

30th April 2007, 01:53 PM	#6
roger Philosopher Join Date: May 2002 Location: Golden CO, USA Posts: 8,584	I have no anecdotes, but I'll point out that I just state that I don't believe in God, and never use the terms agnostic or atheist. Even on this site we have endless threads on the meanings of those two words, and I've never witnessed a consenous. "I don't believe in God" states your position without the baggage of philosophy or a dictionary fight. There is also my perception that people often associate perjoratives with atheist, such as devil worship or other things. Why rile somebody up unnecessarily?

30th April 2007, 02:49 PM	#8
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 5,606	I've had people tell me that I wasn't an atheist, but an agnostic.
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30th April 2007, 02:54 PM	#9
slingblade 63% similar to you Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In This Fog, Who Knows? Posts: 15,397	I was agnostic for a few years. I no longer believed the specifics of my religion, but I still believed there was some kind of god out there. So I switched to paganism and wicca for a while. The common thread there was my belief in magical thinking. When I gave that up, the belief in a god went with it.
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30th April 2007, 03:04 PM	#10
ksbluesfan Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 1,052	For me, the conversation usually goes something like this: Interrogator: What religion or you? Me: I'm not religious. I'm an atheist. Interrogator: So, you think it's impossible that God exists, right? Me: I believe it is highly improbable that there is a God. Interrogator: Then you're "agnostic". Me: Whatever.

30th April 2007, 03:08 PM	#11
Ginarley Post-normalist Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Palmy, NZ Posts: 1,022	I've always been an atheist but when I was younger if I got in discussions about religion I wasn't confident enough to adopt the hard line atheist approach so I'd hide being agnosticism. Now clarity is much more important for me and my confidence is much higher so if someone is offended by me being an atheist then thats their problem
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30th April 2007, 03:11 PM	#12
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 13,050	Originally Posted by slingblade I was agnostic for a few years. I no longer believed the specifics of my religion, but I still believed there was some kind of god out there. Nit-picking, but wouldn't that make you a theist rather than an agnostic at that point?
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

30th April 2007, 03:25 PM	#13
slingblade 63% similar to you Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In This Fog, Who Knows? Posts: 15,397	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler Nit-picking, but wouldn't that make you a theist rather than an agnostic at that point? I dunno. I never heard the term theist until I came to this forum. Does it really matter? I once believed in the christian god, then I believed in pagan gods and goddesses, and now I don't believe any of it. Call it what you like.
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30th April 2007, 03:43 PM	#14
Senex Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 2,346	Originally Posted by slingblade I was agnostic for a few years. I no longer believed the specifics of my religion, but I still believed there was some kind of god out there. So I switched to paganism and wicca for a while. The common thread there was my belief in magical thinking. When I gave that up, the belief in a god went with it. Not that long ago I gave paganism a thought. I wanted to belong to a community like Congregationalists do but not have to believe in a god. I wanted to go to a meeting and say "Go Earth," "Spring, Summer, Fall" or "Winter." I also wanted to meet some loose pagan women. hehehehe... I did a bit of research before the first meeting and read that these people believe in spells and sell candles, books and alter pieces to people. I could tell it was a scam before I ever walked into the church. You have to pay to take courses to increase your spiritual knowledge. Scam, scam, scam scam... If you can't trust pagans what religion can you trust? I'll tell you -- None!

30th April 2007, 06:55 PM	#15
Gord_in_Toronto Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 9,681	Pah! About 30 years ago I was injured in a skiing accident and was taken to the then Roman Catholic hospital in Ottawa. The Sister doing the admitting asked me my religion was and I said "Atheist". I took a look at what she had written on the form and saw an "A". I said, "You better not put that, they'll think I'm an Anglican." She said , in a nice French accent, "That is not an "A", that is an "Aitch"." Heretic? Heathen? They put my leg back together just fine.
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30th April 2007, 07:02 PM	#16
EeneyMinnieMoe Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 5,813	I know I'm an agnostic. I know cause I tried being an atheist when I was like 12 and it didn't work for me. A skeptic is supposed to be open to possibility and remain neutral until they see evidence and that's what an agnostic is. I just don't claim to know if there is a God or if there isn't, you know.

30th April 2007, 07:08 PM	#17
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 9,199	I still call myself a "scientific agnostic", but when quizzed what that means I say "de facto Athiest" (a la Dawkins). They mean the same thing: I admit science can not test whether God exists or not, but the chances of him doing so are rather slim, and for practical purposes non-existant. Although, sometimes I still call myself an "armchair scientist", most people don't see that as a religious option. And, those times when I need to be really diplomatic, I might be inclined to call myself a "secular Jew". But, that hasn't happened, yet.
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30th April 2007, 07:09 PM	#18
Fronzel Thinker Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 217	Originally Posted by ksbluesfan Interrogator: Then you're "agnostic". Me: Whatever. Which is where mine tend to go if I don't say "None of your business". I tend to compound the agnostic accusations because I do admit that I am willing to be convinced that I am wrong and could possibly find something clicks and makes me think it is the One True Way. But I also secretly hope to find a chest full of pirate gold in my yard. That doesn't make me a treasurist. Originally Posted by Senex Not that long ago I gave paganism a thought I think I've mentioned I want to find the weirdest and most obscure religion possible so I can whine and bitch about oppression like the 93% Christian minority. Plus I can make up arbitrary rules when I don't want to do something. "It is against my religion to read emails marked 'FYI' or contain more then 12 spelling errors. I'm sorry."
Fronzel Thinker Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 217

30th April 2007, 07:18 PM	#19
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 15,138	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe I just don't claim to know if there is a God or if there isn't, you know. But do you believe there is a god? If no, you are atheist. If yes, you are theist. There are no other valid answers to this question. Also, agnostic is a position about what you think people can know, it has nothing to do with belief in a god or not. I'm atheist, which means I don't believe in any gods. I'm also a skeptic. I'll be glad to believe in any gods that can be shown to exist, but until then, I simply can't believe gods exist. Replace "gods" with "psychics", "pixies" or any other mythical beings and creatures to illustrate my point.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine Last edited by thaiboxerken; 30th April 2007 at 07:22 PM.

30th April 2007, 07:43 PM	#20
EeneyMinnieMoe Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 5,813	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken But do you believe there is a god? If no, you are atheist. If yes, you are theist. There are no other valid answers to this question. Also, agnostic is a position about what you think people can know, it has nothing to do with belief in a god or not. I'm atheist, which means I don't believe in any gods. I'm also a skeptic. I'll be glad to believe in any gods that can be shown to exist, but until then, I simply can't believe gods exist. Replace "gods" with "psychics", "pixies" or any other mythical beings and creatures to illustrate my point. I'm also sure that any deities would be unknowable to science. So, yes, I'm an agnostic. I used to believe there was one. Then I really didn't know, honest to God (sorry, old habit ) . I'm not being afraid to call myself an atheist here. Now, I don't even care. To answer you, though, it's not yes or no but maybe.

30th April 2007, 07:53 PM	#21
sesshin Thinker Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 163	I am technically an atheist, in that I do not believe in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic concept of God, but I would never call myself one. I tell people I am agnostic or nontheist because I feel that is a more correct description of my beliefs. To me there is just too much baggage associated with the word atheist. Religious people automatically assume that you are anti-religion, even if thats not the case. Then all the anti-religious people who loudly proclaim they are atheists further reinforce the stereotype. I am not anti-religion, I just simply don't choose to believe in any . I think that is an important distinction to make. agnostic/nontheist (weak atheism) as opposed gnostic/atheist (strong atheism)

30th April 2007, 07:58 PM	#22
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 15,138	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe To answer you, though, it's not yes or no but maybe. That's just dishonest. There is no maybe in a belief question. You either believe or you don't.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

30th April 2007, 08:31 PM	#23
Ginarley Post-normalist Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Palmy, NZ Posts: 1,022	Originally Posted by sessbj I am technically an atheist, in that I do not believe in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic concept of God, but I would never call myself one. I tell people I am agnostic or nontheist because I feel that is a more correct description of my beliefs. To me there is just too much baggage associated with the word atheist. Religious people automatically assume that you are anti-religion, even if thats not the case. Then all the anti-religious people who loudly proclaim they are atheists further reinforce the stereotype. I am not anti-religion, I just simply don't choose to believe in any . I think that is an important distinction to make. agnostic/nontheist (weak atheism) as opposed gnostic/atheist (strong atheism) I'm all for taking the word back rather than avoiding the term. Once people realise atheism does not equate to church burning rampant and debauchery the word will eventually lose its taint.
	__________________ "What we need is less gasping and more thinking" - Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow pp147 http://authorofconfusion.wordpress.com/

30th April 2007, 10:03 PM	#24
EeneyMinnieMoe Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 5,813	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken That's just dishonest. There is no maybe in a belief question. You either believe or you don't. No, it's not. I asked myself your question and I honestly can't say I don't. I'm being very emotionally honest with you.

30th April 2007, 10:44 PM	#25
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 15,138	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe No, it's not. I asked myself your question and I honestly can't say I don't. I'm being very emotionally honest with you. No, you aren't. A person either believes in a god or they don't. It's that simple. There is no "maybe" in believing if a god exists or not. You might think that maybe one exists, but you still either believe one exists or not.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

30th April 2007, 10:48 PM	#26
chris epic Perpetual Student Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 675	Originally Posted by Kochanski most people have no idea what agnostic means no pun intended
	__________________ "You have a strange and unsettling mind" -CapelDodger "I hate books. They only teach us to talk about things we know nothing about." -Rousseau

30th April 2007, 10:50 PM	#27
bignickel Mad Mod Poet God Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,633	An agnostic is someone who doesn't believe that any evidence/experience/reasoning can establish the existence of the supernatural. An atheist/non-theist is someone who doesn't believe in the existence of the supernatural. One can, like Michael Shermer, be both: an agnostic non-theist. To the theist, the agnostic position is much worse than simply being an atheist/non-theist. The agnostic can never be convinced one way or the other, not matter what evidence/experience/reasoning is thrown at him. He's a complete waste of time to preachers.
	__________________ "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." - Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone

30th April 2007, 10:54 PM	#28
bignickel Mad Mod Poet God Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,633	A quick note: I agree that with theist or atheist/non-theist, there is no possible fence sitting. Theism is a rather exclusive club: if you don't believe in the supernatural (re: god/s), then you're outside the group. Everyone else who is not a theist, is, by definition, atheist/non-theist. If you're not sure about the existence of god/s, don't ever think about god/s because t/he/y have no meaning in your life, can't make up your mind about the existence of the supernatural... you're not a theist. Sorry. You have to believe to be able to join that club. So, you're out here with most of us (on this board, anyway).
	__________________ "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." - Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone Last edited by bignickel; 30th April 2007 at 10:55 PM. Reason: Tightened up wordiness

30th April 2007, 11:11 PM	#29
kellyb Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,841	I only call myself agnostic when I don't want to frighten someone. Most of the time I go with atheist, though. Technically, I'm somewhere in between most of the time, but some days I just sort of "feel" like maybe there is some kind of deist god of some sort, and other days, I'm pretty darned sure there is no god.
kellyb Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,841

1st May 2007, 12:00 AM	#30
The Great Hairy One Chief Cdr Scientist, NWO Cloning Labs Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,066	I've always been an atheist, and always described myself as one. Although I used to be a fire-and-brimstone, screaming fundamental atheist, now I'm much more mellow. Cheers, TGHO
	__________________ High Priest of Gzortch, the Demon Prince of Nostrils

1st May 2007, 01:34 AM	#31
PenguinWarrior Scholar Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 101	I've never claimed to be agnostic. Online I tend to use atheist (pushed that way by the terminology of this board, I guess), in person I'll say either "I don't believe in God" or "I'm not religious" if it comes up (which it rarely does, honestly). If I'm in the right mood I might even say Secular Humanist, which is how I described myself to the Jehovah's Witnesses who came round the other day (although that was because I reckoned they were less likely to try the hard sell with a positive label than with merely "I don't believe" as the first tends to sound like more thought has gone into it (not necessarily true, of course, but it just SOUNDS that way)).
PenguinWarrior Scholar Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 101

1st May 2007, 01:36 AM	#32
l0rca I know so much karate Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,100	That was me for a couple of months with my family. I eventually came around to being more stern with my atheism when I found compelling arguments to be involved in humanist causes. When I was honest with my family, I've recieved criticism about how I was "too young to understand god", and I would come back around. But noboby has treated me different because of it.

1st May 2007, 04:38 AM	#33
canadarocks Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: North Wales, PA Posts: 155	I guess that I am a "De Facto" atheist. I agree with the statement: "I cannot know for certain, but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life under the assumption that there is no God". To my wife, this is still agnostic (i.e., I don't know). I usually tell strangers and coworkers that I am not religious (but a few have correctly guessed my stance).

1st May 2007, 04:53 AM	#34
roger Philosopher Join Date: May 2002 Location: Golden CO, USA Posts: 8,584	Originally Posted by roger Even on this site we have endless threads on the meanings of those two words, and I've never witnessed a consenous. As I said earlier in this thread. And once again, we are having a dictionary fight.

1st May 2007, 05:01 AM	#35
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	I don't really care for labels like this, but if pushed I will self-identify as an atheist, just because other people seem to like to compartmentalise. My preferred response to the question "do you believe in God?" is "which one?".
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie