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Tags vaccine , parkinsons , flu

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Old 30th April 2007, 04:42 PM   #1
SquishyDave
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Flu vaccine linked to Parkinson's?

I overheard someone say this at work. I looked around but could find nothing. No information saying there was one, none saying there wasn't.

Not even anti-vac websites I found seemed to say this.

Is there anyone here who might have some greater insight? My googling has failed me.

Thanks.
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Old 30th April 2007, 05:45 PM   #2
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Old folks get flu shots: Old folks get Altzeimers. So, therefore...

Sounds bogus to me.

Sounds bogus to me.

Sounds bogus to me.

And I just had a flu shot last week.
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:11 PM   #3
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Ask them how it would be linked. Parkinson's is caused by a deficiency of dopamine due to degenerations in the basal ganglia. Does anything in the flu vaccine affect the basal ganglia? Does anything in the flu vaccine cause dopamine levels to drop any other way? The answer is no, but ask anyways.

Maybe the maroons just figure the old folks are getting Parkinsons because of the flu vaccine (the vaccine is free for the ederly), rather than knowing Parkinsons is often the result of old age (not always though, re: Michael J. Fox).

Vaccines get blamed for everything, so I'm not surprised to hear of this new ridiculous pack of hooey. I wonder where they heard it from?

Maybe they heard something about the vaccine being developed for Parkinsons?
http://www.webmd.com/parkinsons-dise...insons-vaccine
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:16 PM   #4
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I would ask, but this person is my very first nemesis. I will not talk to her any more than is required by my job.

I think I can find out from the person she was telling. A group of us are getting our flu vaccine on Thursday, paid for by our employee, so I will ask the person she was talking to the details.

Luckily she has not influenced anyone else in the office, or I would be making a much bigger deal out of this.

Thanks Eos.
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:28 PM   #5
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You're very welcome. Gee, I wonder why you don't like that girl/nemesis?
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:45 PM   #6
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Wikipedia says -

Quote:
Because the brain lesions found in Alzheimer's disease contain aluminum, there is concern that consumption of excess aluminium compounds may cause or contribute to the development of this and other neurodegenerative diseases (Perl, 2006, Kawahara, 2005)
Some vaccines contain aluminum hydroxide and/or aluminum phosphate. This is probably the reason for the supposed link.

>edit

Yep. A quick search finds hundreds of web pages talking about this. And, as you would expect, they range from out there CT pages to official denials of any possible link between vaccines containing aluminum and any health problems from them.

Caveat Emptor

Last edited by robinson; 30th April 2007 at 06:51 PM. Reason: more stuff
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:51 PM   #7
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Flu vaccines in the US aren't adjuvanted, though.
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:51 PM   #8
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*breathes*

Okay, first of all, Wiki BAD, BAD Wiki.

Second of all, aluminum is NOT found in Alzheimer lesions like that. Not built up, like it was the sole cause or something ridiculous. Not like anyone with Alzheimers has had MORE exposure than anyone else. And it is not an indicated "cause". Eliminating all the aluminum in the world would not cause Alzheimer rates to drop, blah blah, on and on, just like with the mercury and autism crappola...

Third of all, vaccines don't contain aluminum.

*grits teeths* *mumbles*

Please use better sources for your information robinson.
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:54 PM   #9
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A lot of vaccines are adjuvanted with aluminum, but not flu vaccines.
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:56 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
A lot of vaccines are adjuvanted with aluminum, but not flu vaccines.

Please list them, in alphabetical order, with verifiable proof.
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:00 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post
Maybe the maroons just figure the old folks are getting Parkinsons because of the flu vaccine (the vaccine is free for the ederly), rather than knowing Parkinsons is often the result of old age (not always though, re: Michael J. Fox).
Maybe you should learn to use Google before saying you have no idea about something. It only takes a few minutes to find stuff.

Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post
Vaccines get blamed for everything, so I'm not surprised to hear of this new ridiculous pack of hooey. I wonder where they heard it from?
No, vaccines don't get blamed for everything. And it isn't usually the vaccines that people object to, but the toxic chemicals and heavy metals in them. Vaccines good, heavy metals bad. Again, Google is your friend.

I found a dozen links about this issue in less than 15 seconds. Of course, it does involve reading and thinking and stuff, as well as a skeptical eye, so maybe wondering about stuff is better than researching it.

It certainly is easier.

Quote:
Aluminum hydroxide is commonly used in pediatric and adult vaccines, including those for whooping cough, hepatitis A and hepatitis B.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0331152235.htm

Last edited by robinson; 30th April 2007 at 07:06 PM. Reason: addendum
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post
Second of all, aluminum is NOT found in Alzheimer lesions.
Please back up your statement, with verifiable proof.

Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post
Third of all, vaccines don't contain aluminum.
Please back up your statement, with verifiable proof.
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:02 PM   #13
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Yeah, there seems to be no way for us to meaningfully communicate. Ah well.
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:05 PM   #14
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This is pretty common knowledge, Eos. Just look up "vaccines adjuvants" and you can find it pretty easily. In the US, only aluminum salts are licensed for use right now. Probably Canada, too.
Off the top of my head, the DTaP, TD, Gardasil, Prevnar, some HepA and B vaccines, and Adacel are adjuvanted. None of the live vaccines need adjuvants (like varicella, MMR, etc) since they're living, replicating viruses.

If you really want me to look up the package inserts I will, but it's not difficult information to obtain on your own.
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:10 PM   #15
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Aluminum Potassium Sulfate
(Adjuvant )

DtaP (Tripedia), DTwP (Aventis Pasteur), DT (Aventis Pasteur,), Td (Aventis Pasteur)

Aluminum Hydroxide (Adjuvant)

Anthrax (BioThrax), DTaP (Certiva, Infanrix, Acel-Imune), DT (Massachusetts), Td (Massachusetts), Hib (PedvaxHib), Hib-Hepatitis B (Comvax), Hepatitis A (Havrix, Vaqta), Hepatitis B (Engerix-B, Recombivax- HB), Lyme disease (LymeRix), Human Papillomavirus (Gardasil)

Aluminum Phosphate (Adjuvant)

DTaP (Acel-Immune), DtwP (Massachusetts, BioPort), DT (Wyeth-Lederle), Td (Massachusetts, Wyeth-Lederle), Pneumococcal (Prevnar), Rabies (BioRab), Human papillomavirus (Gardasil)

Source: CDC

Time spent on post: 2 seconds searching, 30 seconds copy and paste, 5 seconds formatting, 30 seconds to write this.

Look on Eons face: Priceless

Last edited by robinson; 30th April 2007 at 07:14 PM. Reason: humor
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:15 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by robinson View Post
Maybe you should learn to use Google before saying you have no idea about something. It only takes a few minutes to find stuff.


No, vaccines don't get blamed for everything. And it isn't usually the vaccines that people object to, but the toxic chemicals and heavy metals in them. Vaccines good, heavy metals bad. Again, Google is your friend.
Heavy metal bad. Simple as that? Just use google? Why not use reliable sources of information and your brain instead?


Some facts on Aluminum:
Quote:
Aluminum, the most abundant metal on Earth, is found in soil, in water and in air.

The intake of aluminum from food for an adult amounts to about 8 milligrams per day, although higher daily intakes have also been estimated. In general, approximately 95% of the normal daily intake of aluminum for an adult comes from food. For infants, daily intakes of aluminum are usually less than 1 milligram per day.

a number of other studies have shown no relationship between aluminum in drinking water and the onset of dementia. In addition, scientists have been unable to induce Alzheimer's disease-type changes in the brains of laboratory animals expo sed to aluminum, or to explain the absence of Alzheimer's disease-type changes in brains of patients suffering from dialysis encephalopathy. Some studies have also shown little or no accumulation of aluminum in the brain tissues of Alzheimer's patients.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/wate...uminium_e.html

So, nobody will say aluminum has been completly ruled out yet, they also have a lot of questions to answers. Basically, unless you ingest hundreds of times more than you already do per day, then nothing is going to change to make you more at risk of Alzheimers, especially not in the minimal amount you would get even if ALL vaccines contain them.

I'd still like to hear of what common vaccines available today have aluminum compounds in them, and if that compound stays in the body at all for even more than a few hours.

At the above link they answer some frequent questions, and basically you don't need to change anything, and can even still use aluminum pots if you aren't too paranoid about aluminum already.

If you're that concerned though, you'd better stop using deoderant and antiperspirants too.
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:16 PM   #17
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I think the Lyme disease one got pulled because of autoimmune reaction lawsuits.
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:17 PM   #18
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Quote:
Certain aluminum compounds have been found to be an important component of the neurological damage characteristics of Alzheimer's Disease (AD). Much research over the last decade has focused on the role of aluminum in the development of this disease.
http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/aluminum.htm

Quote:
However, abundant evidence now shows that aluminum may adversely affect the nervous system in humans and animals.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/wate...uminium_e.html

I thought this was about Parkinson's disease?

Quote:
Aluminum deposition in the central nervous system tissues of patients with Parkinson's disease

Yasui M, Kihira T, Ota K, Mukoyama M, Adachi K.

Division of Neurological Diseases, Wakayama Medical College.

Aluminum (Al) concentration in the 26 anatomic central nervous system (CNS) regions, liver, kidney, spleen and heart of our patients with Parkinson's disease, and five neurologically normal controls was measured by a non-destructive neutron activation analysis (NAA), in order to clarify the implication of Al on pathogenesis of Parkinson's disease. Al concentration in substantia nigra, caudate nucleus and globus pallidus increased in patients with Parkinson's disease more than that in controls (p less than 0.05). There was a significant difference in Al concentration of gray matter and basal ganglia in Parkinson's disease, compared with those of controls (p less than 0.01). It is likely that high Al deposition in pathological foci responsible for Parkinson's disease might be implicated in the pathogenesis of Parkinson's disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Last edited by robinson; 30th April 2007 at 07:25 PM. Reason: add link
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:20 PM   #19
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Oy, you were the one who posted the Wiki stuff on Alzheimers.

Yes, I had no idea what aluminum compounds were used in any vaccine.

Now, prove a link to alzheimers. Or parkinsons. Or any other disease antivaxxers are trying to blame vaccines for.

I still would like to know how long the aluminum compounds stay in the body. Are they even absorbed into the blood stream, and passed onto any tissues in the body?

I'm still searching the CDC for the kinds of salts used in the vaccines listed. Can anyone please supply a link?
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:27 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Eos
I still would like to know how long the aluminum compounds stay in the body. Are they even aborbed into the blood stream, and passed onto any tissues in the body?
There was an FDA meeting in Puerto Rico a few years back on the studies on aluminum toxicology, body burden, clearance rates, etc. From what I remember, in rabbits, the clearance rate is around 3 days. First stop is the lymphatic system, and then it makes it into the urinary track. Most is excreted, but what stays collects primarily in bone, then brain and muscle.
If you're curious, I'll try to re-find a link to the meeting. It's the most comprehensive source I've found on the question so far.
There was also a mouse neurotoxicity study done last year that's pretty interesting.
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:28 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post
I'd still like to hear of what common vaccines available today have aluminum compounds in them, and if that compound stays in the body at all for even more than a few hours.
I'm searching for the paper that first linked vaccines to Parkinson's. (And yes, I didn't know there was one until about 5 minutes ago). I would like that info you requested as well, concerning aluminum in vaccines.

>edit

Hmm... this isn't the earliest, but it was the first I found.

Quote:
Histochemical localization of aluminum in the rabbit CNS

G. Y. Wen1 and H. M. Wisniewski

"Summary: Aluminum was observed in the nucleolus, interchromatin granules, rough endoplasmic reticulum, free ribosomes, euchromatin, and the heterochromatin of the neuron. The association of aluminum with the first four r-RNA-containing cellular components and with the last two DNA-containing chromatins suggests the association of aluminum with the nucleic acids. The aluminum may interfere with the normal mechanism of the protein synthesis of r-RNA and of the transcription or gene modulation of DNA. Aluminum was also observed in the astrocytic process and in the nuclei of endothelial cells, pericytes, and the muscle cells of the blood vessels. The detection of aluminum in the pyrimidal cells of the cerebral cortex and hippocampus and in the spinal cord neurons, was observed 1 h after i. v. injection, indicating a rapid entry of aluminum from the injection site through the blood-brain barrier (BBB) to the neurons. Using Morin stain, pyramidal neurons of the cerebral cortex and hippocampus, motoneurons of spinal cord, ganglion cells, and bipolar cells of retina and Purkinje cells of cerebellum, exhibited yellow fluoroscence, with peak intensitiy at 560 nm. Tangles were observed in these six types of neurons. The granule cells of hippocampus and cerebellum and the photoreceptors of the retina exhibited green fluorescence with the peak intensity at 490–500 nm. Tangles were not observed in these three types of neurons."

(1) New York State Office of Mental Retardation and Developmental Disabilities, Institute for Basic Research in Developmental Disabilities, 1050 Forest Hill Road, 10314 Staten Island, NY, USA

Received: 7 May 1985 Accepted: 9 July 1985

Last edited by robinson; 30th April 2007 at 07:35 PM. Reason: addendum
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by robinson View Post
Blah blah, may, might, likely. Let's look into it some more, because these sources have no concrete conclusions.

Let's post lots of contradictory links, because that is going to get us somewhere.

Bottom line was posted already. You can stuff tons of aluminum in animals, and they won't just get Alzheimer plaques or decreased dopamine due to damaged basal ganglia.

I'm still waiting for the CDC link, because I haven't found the web page yet. How did you find it in 2 seconds?
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:31 PM   #23
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Here's that meeting:

http://www.autismhelpforyou.com/alum...1%20of%202.pdf

It's long, but it's informative.

ETA:
Here's the neurotoxicity study...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=17114826

Here's the fulltext:
http://www.a-champ.org/documents/Pet...06_Mar_10b.pdf

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Old 30th April 2007, 07:32 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
There was an FDA meeting in Puerto Rico a few years back on the studies on aluminum toxicology, body burden, clearance rates, etc. From what I remember, in rabbits, the clearance rate is around 3 days. First stop is the lymphatic system, and then it makes it into the urinary track. Most is excreted, but what stays collects primarily in bone, then brain and muscle.
If you're curious, I'll try to re-find a link to the meeting. It's the most comprehensive source I've found on the question so far.
There was also a mouse neurotoxicity study done last year that's pretty interesting.

What aluminum compounds did they use? How long does it take the aluminum salts in vaccines to clear?
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:42 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Here's that meeting:

http://www.autismhelpforyou.com/alum...1%20of%202.pdf

It's long, but it's informative.

ETA:
Here's the neurotoxicity study...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=17114826

Here's the fulltext:
http://www.a-champ.org/documents/Pet...06_Mar_10b.pdf
I read the meeting pdf page about the adjuvant, and the presenter said that he had no doubt that it cleared from the body and didn't not go anywhere "unexpected". The meeting happened in 2000.

Is the adjuvant in the anthrax vaccine different than in any other? It didn't look like it, and the findings have not been replicated (especially not in humans).

I would think the people involved in the war were exposed to many things (conditions and compounds) that many of us never will be.

None of these studies have shown anything conclusive about the "threat of poisoning from vaccines".
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Old 30th April 2007, 08:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post
I read the meeting pdf page about the adjuvant, and the presenter said that he had no doubt that it cleared from the body and didn't not go anywhere "unexpected". The meeting happened in 2000.

.
You read it the whole way through already?
I'm trying to find the rabbit radioisotope part, and I'm still only 1/3rd of the way through.
Haven't found it yet. I'm at page 101...which talks about the demise of the depot theory, where they found that the adjuvant could be injected 3 days before the antigen and the adjuvanted immune response is the same.

I'll let you know when I get to the rabbit part I remember. Specifically, there was a lot of variation between different rabbits. I'm pretty sure three days was the average, though.

ETA:
Ok...back to the aluminum clearance rate..
Go to page 111 of the FDA meeting...it's a sheep study, and they say at 24 hours there's still a lot of aluminum in the lymphatic fluid, and it decreases through day five. They also found aluminum in "cells" (he says probably macrophages or dendric cells) peaking in day one, and mostly cleared by day 5.

ETAA:
Found the rabbit study. Page 163.
They used a human dose, and used both al hydroxide and aluminum phosphate. It appeared in the blood within an hour, and made it into the urine within 5 days for one bunny, and 6 for the other. One bunny still hadn't excreted the al phosphate at 33 days, though.

Quote:
Is the adjuvant in the anthrax vaccine different than in any other? It didn't look like it, and the findings have not been replicated (especially not in humans).
The anthrax adjuvant is the same aluminum hydroxide used in most other vaccines.
That study can't be replicated in humans, though. We can't go around dissecting human brains for experimental purposes. It would be nice to at least see a primate study of some kind on aluminum hydroxide, though. To my knowledge, that's the only animal study of the sort that's ever been done. It's pretty new, so it'll be a year or two before we see what the follow-up work is, if there is any at all.

Last edited by kellyb; 30th April 2007 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 30th April 2007, 08:07 PM   #27
Eos of the Eons
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I finally tracked down a no-nonsense story on adjuvants:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medi...hp?newsid=9615

Quote:
Live vaccines, containing weakened forms of an infectious organism, generally work fine by themselves.

But vaccines containing dead organisms (inactivated vaccines) or pieces of the infectious organisms or their toxins (acellular or recombinant vaccines) generally need adjuvants to boost their effectiveness. Aluminum salts, known as alum, are the only adjuvant approved for use in the United States for routine preventive vaccines.
These compounds have been extensively studied and found to be safe:

Quote:
It was found that aluminum did not significantly penetrate the cellular components of blood. Sixty percent of the intravenous dose was excreted in the urine and the remaining 40% was excreted in the feces.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...TRY=1&SRETRY=0
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Old 30th April 2007, 08:19 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post
Second of all, aluminum is NOT found in Alzheimer lesions.
Please back up your statement, with verifiable proof.

Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post
Third of all, vaccines don't contain aluminum.
Please back up your statement, with verifiable proof.

There are many studies showing aluminum is connected to brain problems. Who knew?

Quote:
Histochemical localization of aluminum in the rabbit CNS

G. Y. Wen1 and H. M. Wisniewski

"Summary: Aluminum was observed in the nucleolus, interchromatin granules, rough endoplasmic reticulum, free ribosomes, euchromatin, and the heterochromatin of the neuron. The association of aluminum with the first four r-RNA-containing cellular components and with the last two DNA-containing chromatins suggests the association of aluminum with the nucleic acids. The aluminum may interfere with the normal mechanism of the protein synthesis of r-RNA and of the transcription or gene modulation of DNA. Aluminum was also observed in the astrocytic process and in the nuclei of endothelial cells, pericytes, and the muscle cells of the blood vessels. The detection of aluminum in the pyrimidal cells of the cerebral cortex and hippocampus and in the spinal cord neurons, was observed 1 h after i. v. injection, indicating a rapid entry of aluminum from the injection site through the blood-brain barrier (BBB) to the neurons. Using Morin stain, pyramidal neurons of the cerebral cortex and hippocampus, motoneurons of spinal cord, ganglion cells, and bipolar cells of retina and Purkinje cells of cerebellum, exhibited yellow fluoroscence, with peak intensitiy at 560 nm. Tangles were observed in these six types of neurons. The granule cells of hippocampus and cerebellum and the photoreceptors of the retina exhibited green fluorescence with the peak intensity at 490500 nm. Tangles were not observed in these three types of neurons."

(1) New York State Office of Mental Retardation and Developmental Disabilities, Institute for Basic Research in Developmental Disabilities, 1050 Forest Hill Road, 10314 Staten Island, NY, USA

Received: 7 May 1985 Accepted: 9 July 1985
Eos, if you are going to make claims, you might want to do some research first. That way you won't look dumb.
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Old 30th April 2007, 08:24 PM   #29
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Blah blah blah. We eat aluminum every day. The folks with Parkinsons or Alzheimers don't have a higher amount than anyone else. The body tissues with aluminum don't have it any higher concentrations than would be expected to be found with average consumption.

And I'll quote again:

Quote:
Aluminum, the most abundant metal on Earth, is found in soil, in water and in air.

The intake of aluminum from food for an adult amounts to about 8 milligrams per day, although higher daily intakes have also been estimated. In general, approximately 95% of the normal daily intake of aluminum for an adult comes from food. For infants, daily intakes of aluminum are usually less than 1 milligram per day.

a number of other studies have shown no relationship between aluminum in drinking water and the onset of dementia. In addition, scientists have been unable to induce Alzheimer's disease-type changes in the brains of laboratory animals expo sed to aluminum, or to explain the absence of Alzheimer's disease-type changes in brains of patients suffering from dialysis encephalopathy. Some studies have also shown little or no accumulation of aluminum in the brain tissues of Alzheimer's patients.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/wate...uminium_e.html
Also,
Alum salts in vaccines aren't around long enough and don't accumulate in body tissues. So they aren't the issue.


So we can link studies allll day, and there is still nothing conclusive about average consumption of aluminum being tied to any type of deterioration, let alone common brain disorders.
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Old 30th April 2007, 08:42 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post


These compounds have been extensively studied and found to be safe:



http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...TRY=1&SRETRY=0
That was in rats fed aluminum orally?
The uptake by the gut is around .01%, so I'm not sure how applicable that is.
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Old 30th April 2007, 10:19 PM   #31
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Blah blah blah. We eat aluminum every day.

Straw men are so easy to demolish. Next time someone claims Parkinson's is connected to eating aluminum, I can use this to debunk em.. Cool. Of course, I don't know anybody who eats aluminum every day, but it could happen.

The folks with Parkinsons or Alzheimers don't have a higher amount than anyone else.

Why should anyone believe you? So far you have made false statements, and shrugged off your ignorance, and then tried to change the topic. Good luck with that.

The body tissues with aluminum don't have it any higher concentrations than would be expected to be found with average consumption.

Gee, should I listen to some anonymous person who is wrong about stuff, or read scientific studies by, well, scientist and stuff? There sure is a lot of science stuff about aluminum, vaccines and brains and nerves and stuff.

Murayama H, Shin RW, Higuchi J, Shibuya S, Muramoto T, Kitamoto T. Interaction of aluminum with PHFtau in Alzheimer's disease neurofibrillary degeneration evidenced by desferrioxamine-assisted chelating autoclave method.Am J Pathol. 1999 Sep;155(3):877-85.

Gosh, I don't know. Reading stuff is hard.


Shin RW, Kruck TP, Murayama H, Kitamoto T. A novel trivalent cation chelator Feralex dissociates binding of aluminum and iron associated with hyperphosphorylated tau of Alzheimer's disease. Brain Res. 2003 Jan 24;961(1):139-46.


That sounds all scientific and stuff. Wouldn't it be easier to just know something? Then I don't have to think.

Singer SM, Chambers CB, Newfry GA, Norlund MA, Muma NA. Tau in aluminum-induced neurofibrillary tangles. Neurotoxicology. 1997;18(1):63-76.

Damn. If I listen to Eos, I don't have to read anything. What to do?

Toda S, Yase Y. Effect of aluminum on iron-induced lipid peroxidation and protein oxidative modification of mouse brain homogenate. Biol Trace Elem Res. 1998 Feb;61(2):207-17.

Wait a minute. They did animal studies and stuff? I thought it was safe, or we don't know, or something.

Sayre LM, Perry G, Harris PL, Liu Y, Schubert KA, Smith MA. In situ oxidative catalysis by neurofibrillary tangles and senile plaques in Alzheimer's disease: a central role for bound transition metals. J Neurochem. 2000 Jan;74(1):270-9.

Hey! This is starting to be a serious drain on my time.

Xie CX, Yokel RA. Aluminum facilitation of iron-mediated lipid peroxidation is dependent on substrate, pH and aluminum and iron concentrations. Arch Biochem Biophys. 1996 Mar 15;327(2):222-6.

Jope RS. Modulation of phosphoinositide hydrolysis by NaF and aluminum in rat cortical slices. J Neurochem. 1988 Dec; 51(6): 1731-6.

Blair HC, Finch JL, Avioli R, Crouch EC, Slatopolsky E, Teitelbaum SL. Micromolar aluminum levels reduce 3H-thymidine incorporation by cell line UMR 106-01. Kidney Int. 1989 May; 35(5): 1119-25.

There is sure a lot of studies about aluminum. And rats. Can't we study people?

Jope RS. Modulation of phosphoinositide hydrolysis by NaF and aluminum in rat cortical slices. J Neurochem. 1988 Dec; 51(6): 1731-6.

Lai JC, Lim L, Davison AN. Effects of Cd2+, Mn2+, and Al3+ on rat brain synaptosomal uptake of noradrenaline and serotonin. J Inorg Biochem. 1982 Nov; 17(3): 215-25.


More rats.

Candura SM, Castildi AF, et al. Interaction of aluminum ions with phosphoinositide metabolism in rat cerebral cortical membranes. Life Sci 49: 1245-1252, 1991.

Publicover SJ. Brief exposure to the G-protein activator NaF/ AlCl3 induces prolonged enhancement of synaptic transmission in area of rat hippocampal slices. Expl Brain Res 84: 680-684, 1991.


Cmon! What about vaccines?

Lacson AG, D'Cruz CA, et al. Aluminum phagocytosis in quadriceps muscle following vaccination in children: relationship to macrophagic myofasciitis. Pediatr Dev Pathol 5: 151-158, 2002.

Flarend RE, Hem SL, et al. In vivo absorption of aluminum-containing vaccine adjuvants using 26 Al. Vaccine 15: 131401318, 1997.

Authier FJ Cherin P, et al. Central nervous system disease in patients with macrophagic myofasciitis. Brain 124: 974-983, 2001.

Gherardi RK. Lessons from macrophagic myofasciitis: towards definition of a vaccine adjuvant-related syndrome. Rev Neurol (Paris) 159: 162-164, 2003.

Bergfors E, Trollfors B, Inerot A. Unexpectantly high incidence of persistent itching and delayed hypersensitivity to aluminum in children after the used of absorbed vaccines from a single manufacturer. Vaccine 22: 64-69, 2003.


Whoops! I guess we can study peoples.

Mundy WR, Freudenrich TM, Kodavanti PR. Aluminum potentates glutamate-induced calcium accumulation and iron-induced oxygen free radical formation in primary neuronal cultures. Mol Chem Neuropathol 32: 41-57, 1997.

It does, of course, go on and on and on. Seems like there is a lot of science and stuff involved. It almost makes you wonder, if aluminum, injected into the bloodstream, is a lot different than eating traces of it.



























Nah. You would have to be a skeptic to think like that. Better to just believe what we are told. There is nothing wrong, aluminum, like mercury, isn't that bad. Think of the children.
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Old 30th April 2007, 10:32 PM   #32
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The question that started this thread is about flu vaccines.

The list Robinson posted doesn't seem to mention any flu vaccines.

Does anyone have any evidence that flu vaccines contain aluminum?

If so, where is it?

If not, trying to link flu vaccines to Parkinson's via the questioned link between aluminum and Alzheimers fails due to subverted support.
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:00 PM   #33
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No, there's no aluminum in flu vaccines. I think everyone here agreed that was bunk early in the thread.

The aluminum thing was just an off topic sidetrack.

ETA: Although flu vaccines are going to be adjuvanted with aluminum in the near future. But I seriously doubt the woman mentioned in the OP was making some kind of prediction about the future. But if you want to fast-forward into the future 5-10 years, there are going to be all kinds of accusations directed towards influenza vaccines because of the new adjuvants they're going to start adding in to boost effectiveness and save antigens.

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Old 1st May 2007, 01:48 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by robinson View Post
It almost makes you wonder, if aluminum, injected into the bloodstream, is a lot different than eating traces of it.
Are you suggesting that vaccines are injected into the bloodstream? None is, the routes are either intramuscular, subcutaneous or oral.
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Old 1st May 2007, 03:52 AM   #35
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Oh look, Robinson is making unfounded claims about vaccines again, while at the same time accusing others of not doing research and looking silly. What's that? He's going on about mercury again despite being proved wrong about it over and over again? Gosh, one would almost suppose he is a troll or something.
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Old 1st May 2007, 04:00 AM   #36
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Has anyone here presented one tiny shred of evidence supporting the claim in the OP?

Do you really think the tiny amount of aluminum in a 0.5 cc flu shot once a year is in any way a significant source of aluminum? If that were the case then only people who got flu shots would have aluminum in their brains. Why? Because any other source of aluminum is either going to be much larger or not absorbed at all.

In other words, for the amount of aluminum in a flu shot to be significant, other sources would have to be very small. If other sources are great, then the flu shot wouldn't be adding more than a drop in a bucket.

Side note I'm sure no one cares about: We also have a few intradermal vaccines, Capsid. Rabies vaccine is given intradermally for example.
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Old 1st May 2007, 04:31 AM   #37
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Ooops forgot about intradermal.
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:25 AM   #38
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Back to the OP.
My guess is that Nemesis got it wrong - nobody has suggested a link between the flu vaccine and Parkinson's. However, it has been suggested that the Spanish Flu outbreak of 1918 may have caused a variety of neurological disorders, including Parkinson's, in survivors.
Quote:
It is estimated that about 25-30% of the world population was infected and upward of 40 million people died in less than a year. About the same time, the world was hit by an unusual epidemic of neurological diseases. Circumstantial and epidemiological evidence links post-encephalitic Parkinsonism to the 1918 influenza pandemic, but a causal link was never formally proven as the pandemic occurred before the advent of modern virology.
www.parkinson.org
So Nemesis got it half-assed and backwards, and doesn't know what she's talking about!

If you want to carry on arguing about aluminium, take it to a new thread!
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Old 1st May 2007, 07:23 AM   #39
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As to the topic at hand, it wasn't hard to find information on the Net that says, in no uncertain terms, that flu vaccines are linked to Parkinson's.

The name that stands out most is Hugh Fudenberg, MD. But his website doesn't actually have anything about it, but in an ironic twist, it has all kinds of stuff about Autism, Gulf War syndrome, and vaccines. Ack!

A radio show broadcast in Nov. 25, 2003, an un-named doctor stated 'If you have taken the flu shot more than 8 times in the last 10 years you have an 80% chance of getting Alzheimers'. I'm not saying that claim is true, I'm telling you why people might repeat something like this. It doesn't explain why people say flu vaccines are linked to Parkinson's however.

I would bet the Doctor was Hugh Fudenberg, but I have no evidence to show this is true.

So, the question in the OP is up for debate, but why the question came up is clear. It is a lot like the Thimerosal/Autism debate. Or the vaccine/Gulf War debate. Lots of smoke, maybe some fire, lots of shooting in the dark.

My opinion, based on the obvious facts, is that flu vaccines don't cause Alzheimer's, just like Mercury doesn't cause Autism. But I still avoid mercury, lead, aluminum, cadmium, radium, DDT, and a host of other heavy metals and toxic chemicals, because it doesn't hurt to play it safe.

I'm a skeptic when it comes to injecting stuff into my body.

Originally Posted by skeptigirl View Post
Has anyone here presented one tiny shred of evidence supporting the claim in the OP?
There is a study quoted many times on questionable web sites, but I can't find the actual study published online. (Red flag)

I'm sure it suffers the same drawbacks that pop up concerning these sort of things. The Doctor who seems to know the most about the problem will have some kind of "treatment" for it, and will charge money for it, making the information suspect.

Like that HIV thing. The guy who claimed to discover it, patented a test to detect it, and even after splitting the profits with the people who actually discovered it, made a lot of money off of it. So there was suspicion cast on the science, based on the money/profit factor.

And in an attempt to not be a waste of your time, cause you have read this far down, into a questionable post, let me say that I value you, and the JREF forums, because I don't see much stuff like this anywhere else. I avoid CT forums, woo and questionable websites, so these sort of questions/issues don't appear on my screen. I get more information about strange stuff here, than anywhere else.

I also find a LOT of "evidence", "proof" and other high weirdness about these matters on web pages, but because I consider them suspect, I try not to link to them, sticking to sources that have, at least IMO, some credibility.

And as always, if you think I made some dumb claim, then simply link to it, you know, quote me, and point this out to the group. It isn't hard to do. If I am being dumb, and you point this out, I will become smarter. And thank you for it.

As for that unpleasant aluminum linked to problems thingy, there is a new study in Neuromolecular Medicine, February 2007, Volume 9, Issue 1 called
Quote:
Aluminum, Neuron Death and Anthrax Vaccine

Aluminum adjuvant linked to gulf war illness induces motor neuron death in mice.

Petrik MS, Wong MC, Tabata RC, Garry RF, Shaw CA. Department of Ophthalmology and Program in Neuroscience, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.


"Whereas many environmental factors have been linked to GWI, the role of the anthrax vaccine has come under increasing scrutiny. Among the vaccine's potentially toxic components are the adjuvants aluminum hydroxide and squalene..... Aluminum-treated groups also showed significant motor neuron loss (35%) and increased numbers of astrocytes (350%) in the lumbar spinal cord....The findings suggest a possible role for the aluminum adjuvant in some neurological features associated with GWI and possibly an additional role for the combination of adjuvants."
A troll might start a topic about it, make some woo claims, stir up some crap with the rabid crowd that just can't stand evidence like this.

heh

Me, I don't care that much.

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Old 1st May 2007, 08:36 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by skeptigirl View Post
Has anyone here presented one tiny shred of evidence supporting the claim in the OP?

Do you really think the tiny amount of aluminum in a 0.5 cc flu shot once a year is in any way a significant source of aluminum? If that were the case then only people who got flu shots would have aluminum in their brains. Why? Because any other source of aluminum is either going to be much larger or not absorbed at all.

In other words, for the amount of aluminum in a flu shot to be significant, other sources would have to be very small. If other sources are great, then the flu shot wouldn't be adding more than a drop in a bucket.
But there's no aluminum in flu shots!
They're not adjuvanted with anything right now, except one in the UK that uses squalene.
This is the third or 4th time in this thread I've said this.
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