Loss of libido - any advice, please?

[EvilBiker]

Please excuse the long post - I really need some help here....

My wife has now finally come out and said that she does not enjoy sex - in fact, she goes as far as to say that it repulses her. Even French kissing is a turnoff.

This started around about the time we got married. Before then, we had a very active sex life, for roughly 3 years. I suppose I cannot take this into account, really, due to it being the honeymoon period of the relationship. I do find the complete turnaround disconcerting.

We attended sex therapy sessions together for roughly 8 months, from around October 2005. Therapist concluded that I had a normal, active sex drive, that the wife was not contributing to the relationship at all sexually, recommended that I walk away from the relationship. This was quite a mindf**k, I thought sex therapists were supposed to HELP.

At that stage, the wife was on the pill (not sure which type). Her mood swings were extreme, and she used to verbally attack me nearly every day. A friend suggested she change the type of pill she was on, as it had (in the friend's case) made a huge difference to her moods. Also taken into account was the fact that the wife used to get severe cramps during her period, to such an extent that she used to have morphine shots to alleviate the pain.

So, after some investigation, she decided to have an IUD fitted, namely a Mirena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IntraUterine_System). At the same time she went onto Cipralex, an Escitalopram SSRI. Results looked promising from the drug, she mellowed out somewhat, and the verbal attacks stopped. (I won't go into the Mirena saga, it's just a side issue, I believe). Cipralex was chosen by her GP as the SSRI of choice as it was believed at that stage to have the least effect on libido...

During the declining period, we tried MDMA, more out of curiosity than anything else (we have a lot of rave culture friends). It actually worked out nicely - we had great sex, although the after effects of the drug meant that the next day was a bit of a waste - we spent most of the time sleeping the effects off.

Thing carried on going from bad to worse. With the SSRI now in full effect, the wife could not take MDMA anymore, as the effects were totally squashed by the Cipralex. Normal sex was a non-event. We had sex maybe 4 times in 2006, only once normally, and there was no involvement from the wife's side, in effect. I felt like I was, to put it bluntly, forcing myself on her.

This year the situation is worse. We last had sex in February. I eventually cracked and gave over an ultimatum - either investigate and find a solution, or prepare for divorce.

I had been looking into the effects of Cipralex to try figure out if there was any contribution from the SSRI to the percieved increasing decline of libido. I did find that the initial studies on the effect of Cipralex on the libido were highly underrated. During the course of my investigations, I looked at other SSRIs and alternatives like Wellbutrin, etc. etc. I did not believe that Cipralex was the inital cause of the wife's loss of interest, as this had started occurring before she went onto the SSRI, but I did feel that maybe the drug was further suppressing whatever libido she had left.

Armed with a myriad of facts on SSRIs, various agonists, MAOIs, etc. I visited her GP and had a free and frank discussion on possible ways forward. Heh, he was actually quite taken aback by the fact that a mere engineer knew more about the subject than he did! Anyway, he agreed with me on the effects of Cipralex, and after some discussion with colleagues, decided to try the Wellbutrin approach. I must add here that he was not at all aware that we were having any sexual problems - the wife never mentioned it to him.

Now, Wellbutrin has some small effect on dopamine production (increases it slightly), and does not affect libido. We thought this would help to some extent. So far, two months down the line, there has been no change. Of course, along with the change in medication, it was recommended that the wife consult a psychiatrist, to see if there were perhaps some underlying reason for the lack of interest.

In the interim, we heard about a product called Scentuelle, which apparently enhanced libido to some extent. I did some investigation, but could not find any proper studies done on it. However, desperate as I was, I bought a month's supply, even though I suspected the placebo effect had a lot to do with the product. It does not seem to be doing anything for the wife.

I must state here that the wife has been trying as hard as I am to find a solution. We both love each other, she wants to spend the rest of her life with me, but she realises that I am not happy with the current situation.
This weekend she broached the subject with me again, I suspect after being egged on by here psychiatrist to report back to me. According to the psych, there is no apparent cause for her lack of libido. So, in effect, I cannot realistically hold out any hope of a change to the situation any time soon, and perhaps never.

Also, according to the psych, the majority of women suffer from lack of libido, and in most cases they are prepared to compromise to some extent to make the marriage work (ie. engage in sex with their spouses even though they don't particularly feel like it). My wife is not prepared to compromise. In her words, she cannot face "being raped" by me, that is how strong her feelings are against sex right now.

So, the alternatives:

1. I must compromise and never again have normal sex with her. She is open to maybe taking Ecstacy once a month, as she enjoys sex on the drug, as long as she is convinced there are no long term effects from the use thereof. I don't like this idea, to be honest. Firstly, the drug is illegal, which means the only supply is erratic in terms of quality, and secondly, I believe it is basically papering over the problem.

2. Get divorced.

So far, it looks like I get divorced. I must say, even though I do not like the Ecstasy idea, I'm leaning towards it, because I do not want to lose this woman. We fit together in all other areas of our lives and we both love each other. I am at a total loss as to what to do further to prevent us seperating - it's tearing me apart.

I would welcome any advice on the matter. Am I flogging a dead horse? Is there an avenue I have neglected to cover?

Depressingly,
EB.

[Taffer]

[Dancing David]

Tough situation.

There are effects of SSRIs on all sorts of systems, including the libidinal. I am not a sex therapist, nor do I have any experience in sexual counseling.

There are a couple things I can think of:

1. Hormone levels, they effect libidinal energy in both men and women.

2. Other SSRIs or antidepressants, they may have less of an effect, if that is the cause. I don't know about wellbuproprion.

3. She may have depression at this time and the ahedonia associated with it.

4. Maybe talk to another psyciatrist, I have had some wierd experiences with them where someone is having an obvious side effect but the doc insists that it just can not be.

5. Did the sex therapist engage in romance therapy? In that for women there are different triggers for arousal than most men. I imagine that there may be some cognitive behavioralk issues involved.


I am very sorry to hear about this. It sounds strangely reminiscent of my first marriage with a lot of other issues as well.

I have a lot of emotional flattening from antidepressants but given the nature of my anxiety and obsessions that is a good thing. But the falttening of the painful emotions does aloow the more pleasant ones to come through. I prefer to be on treatment but for me there is just this feeling of dullness at first (lasted about two years) as I adjusted to having less reactive emotions and less intrusive thoughts of an emotional nature.

I don't know if the depression or the antidepressant if flattening your partners libido. I do suggest talking with as many knowledgeable people as possible. And beware taking any authority too seriously unless you know the basis for thier thoughts, especialy a psychiatrist.

[Puppycow]

Since you didn't mention kids I assume there are none. I think you need to get a divorce. I absolutely would in that situation. The sooner the better. There are plenty of other people out there for each of you. I mean "being raped"? Come on. You can't have a worthwhile marraige if that's how she feels.

I also recommend not looking to find a solution in some drug. Getting her on just the right combination of meds doesn't sound like a good plan to me. Start looking at dating sites on the Net if you need some encouragement. And don't feel sorry for her. Life's too short. Get a divorce.

[NeilC]

Clearly taking ecstasy is not a viable long term proposition. It's illegal for starters.

SSRIs are famous for causing loss of libido. But seeing as a therapist has pointed out character/relationship/behaviour problems it doesn't see that you can blame that alone or maybe even at all.

It sounds like she needs more therapy or you two need relationship counciling. Sounds like something is wrong there. I've gone though periods of not wanting sex (funnily enough the french kissing was the first thing to go and the most "painful" for me that time) and I've gone through periods of my wife not being too keen. We've always got over them. I discovered that I need to be feeling confident in other areas of my life to be happy in bed - e.g. if I'm down about work I'm not up for it in the sack. So depression is one area to investigate. Other things we've noticed is lack of affection and 1-to-1 focus leg to problems. I.e. when the snuggling and kissing and talking frankly etc drop so does the sex. And to a certain extent lack of respect came into things. After a few years it can easy to take people for granted and not spend much time thinking about how you can make them happy on a minute by minute basis - you'd rather let her do the washing up cos your tired instead of doing more than your fair share because it makes them happy - you get the idea. For us this sort of slightly selfish (well not selfless anyway) attitude creates a mini battle/competition instead of harmony. All these things always led to less sex and worse sex. Obviously I've no idea if this applies to you but if she's being treated for depression I'm guessing some of it might - depressed people are not always fun to be with as a rule.

I wonder if the heavy periods and pill problems indicate hormonal problems?

I don't like the sound of this shrink. WTF is with "women suffer from lack of libido, and in most cases they are prepared to compromise to some extent to make the marriage work". I'm not sure that is even true, plenty of women moan about not getting enough sex for starters. And even if it is, there is huge difference between compromising a bit when you're not 100% hot to trot and feeling like you are being raped when your loving husband makes advances to you.

Re: divorce....if you don't have kids and you ain't happy it's got to be worth considering.

[EvilBiker]

Thank for the reponses!

Originally Posted by Dancing David

1. Hormone levels, they effect libidinal energy in both men and women.

2. Other SSRIs or antidepressants, they may have less of an effect, if that is the cause. I don't know about wellbuproprion.

3. She may have depression at this time and the ahedonia associated with it.

4. Maybe talk to another psyciatrist, I have had some wierd experiences with them where someone is having an obvious side effect but the doc insists that it just can not be.

5. Did the sex therapist engage in romance therapy? In that for women there are different triggers for arousal than most men. I imagine that there may be some cognitive behavioralk issues involved.

1. She has had hormone level tests, specifically for testosterone. All normal.

2. Yup, the effects vary from one to the other but on the whole any SSRI decreases libido, it seems. Wellbuproprion does not, and in fact, is used to treat the loss of libido in some cases. From Wikipedia:

Quote:

Several studies have indicated that bupropion also relieves sexual dysfunction among non-depressed patients. After a 12-weeks course in a mixed male/female double-blind study, 63% of subjects on bupropion rated their condition as improved or much improved vs. only 3% of subjects on placebo.[24]

Two studies, one of which was placebo-controlled, demonstrated efficacy of bupropion for women with hypoactive sexual desire[25][26] resulting in significant improvement of arousal, orgasm and overall satisfaction.

Bupropion also showed promise as a treatment for sexual dysfunction caused by chemotherapy for breast cancer[27] and for orgasmic dysfunction.[28]

As with the treatment of SSRI-induced sexual disorder, a higher dose of bupropion (300 mg) may be necessary, since a randomized study, which employed a lower dose (150 mg), failed to find any significant difference between bupropion, sexual therapy or combined treatment.[29] Interestingly, bupropion does not affect any measures of sexual functioning in healthy males.[30]

3. This is true. We are hoping that the Wellbutrin will treat this without the loss of libido..

4. I'm considering another psych, but the wife is pushing back, as with every new one she has to go through the whole introduction cycle again, which is pretty traumatic.

5. Yes, we did engage in romantic therapy - we know the buttons to push. The problem is that at this stage there are such levels of guilt and apprehension involved, it can get pretty hard to follow through with. My aim at this stage is to promote the seperation of affection from sex - the wife is at the moment scared stiff of offering any affection because she believes it will lead to intercourse in all cases.

I am trying to cover all bases here before taking the divorce decision. I've been searching again today, and have found out about a new drug currently undergoing trials, which could be of some use - Bremelanotide. It looks promising, though I'm not sure when it will be out on the market.

[EvilBiker]

Originally Posted by Splossy

It sounds like she needs more therapy or you two need relationship counciling. Sounds like something is wrong there. I've gone though periods of not wanting sex (funnily enough the french kissing was the first thing to go and the most "painful" for me that time) and I've gone through periods of my wife not being too keen. We've always got over them. I discovered that I need to be feeling confident in other areas of my life to be happy in bed - e.g. if I'm down about work I'm not up for it in the sack. So depression is one area to investigate. Other things we've noticed is lack of affection and 1-to-1 focus leg to problems. I.e. when the snuggling and kissing and talking frankly etc drop so does the sex. And to a certain extent lack of respect came into things. After a few years it can easy to take people for granted and not spend much time thinking about how you can make them happy on a minute by minute basis - you'd rather let her do the washing up cos your tired instead of doing more than your fair share because it makes them happy - you get the idea. For us this sort of slightly selfish (well not selfless anyway) attitude creates a mini battle/competition instead of harmony. All these things always led to less sex and worse sex. Obviously I've no idea if this applies to you but if she's being treated for depression I'm guessing some of it might - depressed people are not always fun to be with as a rule.

One of the problems which has manifested itself due to the lack of intimacy is that I have been overeacting the other way, effectively smothering her with attention, which I think has actually pushed her away more. This came out of our initial therapy session. Trust me, taking her for granted has definitely never been on the cards in my case. I appreciate your insight, though

Quote:

I wonder if the heavy periods and pill problems indicate hormonal problems?

Apparently not, according to the tests, which showed normal hormonal levels. Frankly, I was surprised that the doc had not done hormone tests before putting her on an SSRI. I insisted on hormone tests before recommending any medication changes.
Regarding the cramps, subsequent to the IUD insertion, she had a laparoscopy done and some traces of endimetriosis were found and dealt with. The periods have lessened now too.

Quote:

I don't like the sound of this shrink. WTF is with "women suffer from lack of libido, and in most cases they are prepared to compromise to some extent to make the marriage work". I'm not sure that is even true, plenty of women moan about not getting enough sex for starters. And even if it is, there is huge difference between compromising a bit when you're not 100% hot to trot and feeling like you are being raped when your loving husband makes advances to you.

I'm also a bit wary of this shrink, frankly, especially when she first mentioned regression therapy. However, she comes very highly recommended...

Quote:

Re: divorce....if you don't have kids and you ain't happy it's got to be worth considering.

Yes, it is an option, but really, it is a last resort. Maybe I'm being stupid, but what is keeping me trying is the fact that besides the physical, we have an outstanding relationship.

[EvilBiker]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Since you didn't mention kids I assume there are none. I think you need to get a divorce. I absolutely would in that situation. The sooner the better. There are plenty of other people out there for each of you. I mean "being raped"? Come on. You can't have a worthwhile marraige if that's how she feels.

I also recommend not looking to find a solution in some drug. Getting her on just the right combination of meds doesn't sound like a good plan to me. Start looking at dating sites on the Net if you need some encouragement. And don't feel sorry for her. Life's too short. Get a divorce.

At this stage, even though it is quite a way down the line, I still feel like divorce is essentially giving up. Don't get me wrong, I've been divorced before, and know the ins and outs. It's just that in this case, the attraction in all other areas is still there...

[tkingdoll]

I am sorry to hear about your problems. But...for all the medical solutions you are seeking, could it not just simply be that she's not attracted to you any longer?

I was in a celibate relationship for a few years, we wanted to stay together because we had everything in common, and although we started off with a normal sex life, after a while I just stopped finding him physically attractive. And, sorry to say, but it's very unpleasant to have sex with someone to whom you are not attracted. Anyway, we tried to pretend it was OK to not have sex but actually it wasn't, and we split when I met someone I was very attracted to, who is now my husband.

There is a difference between not being attracted to anyone, and not being attracted to you specifically. Could it be that she has a libido, but not for you?

I hope you can work things out though, you sound like a very caring guy.

Have you discussed experimenting with an open relationship? You get to keep the love but your sexual needs are fulfilled elsewhere? I've never tried it and not sure how it works long-term but if you want the love and companionship from each other and can separate the sex, it might be something to consider. There is at least one person on this forum in a successful open relationship, I believe.

[NeilC]

Originally Posted by EvilBiker

One of the problems which has manifested itself due to the lack of intimacy is that I have been overeacting the other way, effectively smothering her with attention, which I think has actually pushed her away more. This came out of our initial therapy session. Trust me, taking her for granted has definitely never been on the cards in my case. I appreciate your insight, though

I didn't mean to imply it was from your direction but more a whole-relationship thing. In my case it was ME not making the effort but still ME losing interest. I found I had to make more effort in other areas to regain my ador. Not entirely sure why.

Maybe it is just some chemical thing curable by pills but that you had a therapist say she's not giving enough and to leave her implies that the relationship is not working perfectly in all areas other than sex. Unless of course she has some deep psychological problem connected to sex that are only just coming out now - you know like child abuse or something?

[CynicalSkeptic]

I'm in a similar situation, though not quite as bad. Sex went from nearly daily, to about 1/month seemingly overnight. There is/was also verbal (and sometimes physical) abuse. She has said that sex maybe twice a month would be ok with her, of course I'm thinking more like 3-4 times per week.

Like you, I gave her an ultimatum of either seek help, or divorce, which she did (this was more for the abuse then the lack of sex), and now we're actually in couples counseling as well as individual counseling. We had been to marriage counseling previously, but moved away from our first one, and had a lousy second one. Now we've found a very good psychologist, and we're dealing with real issues that go back to childhood.

Also, like your situation even when she does agree to sex, she often doesn't enjoy it, but merely tolerates it to try to appease me, but that is a thoroughly unsatisfying experience, and has actually led to more fights. Also like you, she enjoys it more when using drugs (weed in our case, haven't tried ecstasy, wouldn't even know where to get it (she's hinted at that as she used to be into the rave scene)).

One of the issues that she actually acknowledges is her weight. She gained a lot during her pregnancy, and has not lost it in the two+ years since. She doesn't feel good about her body so sex is uncomfortable for her psychologically and physically.

Another issue that has only surfaced in counseling has to do with our daughter. She has a medical condition, and it impacts my wife much more emotionally than it does me. Because I rationalize everything, my wife doesn't think I care or feel as deeply as she does about our daughter's situation, so she doesn't feel as connected to me, so that's another sexual turn-off for her.

Finally, she's also on an SSRI, but I think right now the other issues play more of a role than the drugs.

I have also seriously considered divorce, but since we have a child, that's really a last resort option for me. However, if things continue the way they are I'll seriously have to consider it again.

I would recommend couples counseling again and finding a different doctor for her. My wife had also gotten a GP to prescribe her SSRIs in the past, but she wasn't being monitored or doing any talk therapy, so it was pretty ineffective. We're finally making progress with our current situation, but it's a long bumpy road. Changing your doctor/therapist is one option that may be better than divorce.

[NeilC]

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

could it not just simply be that she's not attracted to you any longer?

This is obviously a valid question but out of interest, what does that mean for all of us as we age? There are not many attractive 60 year old women who've had say 2 kids. Not really. I imagine perceived attractiveness between married couples involves some self delusion.

[CynicalSkeptic]

Originally Posted by EvilBiker

the wife is at the moment scared stiff of offering any affection because she believes it will lead to intercourse in all cases.

I know exactly what you're talking about. She will literally freeze up, or push me away when I try to hug/kiss her, and this is leads to feelings of rejection for me (can you say downward spiral). BTW, we've been seeing our currently psychologist for about 6-7 months, and he sent her to a psychiatrist for meds almost immediately, he just recently did the same for me, so I'm also now taking an SSRI.

Quote:

One of the problems which has manifested itself due to the lack of intimacy is that I have been overeacting the other way, effectively smothering her with attention, which I think has actually pushed her away more.

Same here. Well, I don't think I'm being overly affectionate, but she claims I'm smothering her (her exact words) when I'm just trying to be a loving caring husband. But since she thinks that it means I'm wanting sex, she won't accept my affection.

[tkingdoll]

Originally Posted by Splossy

This is obviously a valid question but out of interest, what does that mean for all of us as we age? There are not many attractive 60 year old women who've had say 2 kids. Not really. I imagine perceived attractiveness between married couples involves some self delusion.

There's no single answer to this. A 60-year-old guy and woman might be desperately, clothes-rippingly attracted to each other.

Often we're sexually attracted to someone just because they're new.

What's that old psychology? Romantic love lasts 3 years? Which I assume is a euphemism for sexual attraction.

Interestingly, my husband is the only man I've ever been attracted to for more than 2 years. No idea if we got married because we're hot for each other, or if some subconcious mechanism causes us to remain attracted to each other because we know we're married.

I don't know if I'm being wildly unfair here, but it seems to me far more likely that a woman is simply no longer attracted to a man than there being some underlying medical or psychological issue. But for the man, it's the hardest to accept, for good reason.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by EvilBiker

At this stage, even though it is quite a way down the line, I still feel like divorce is essentially giving up. Don't get me wrong, I've been divorced before, and know the ins and outs. It's just that in this case, the attraction in all other areas is still there...

Well I guess it depends on how important sex is for you. How about taking a vacation from each other? I'm not sure exactly why you need to be married if you don't have and aren't planning to have kids. In fact you said that getting married was about the point when the relationship began to head south. "Giving up" doesn't seem like a big problem if there are no kids. You are both adults, and you just need to meet someone else and try again. Time will heal the heart, but first you have to make a clean break.

[Crazycowbob]

Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic

...One of the issues that she actually acknowledges is her weight. She gained a lot during her pregnancy, and has not lost it in the two+ years since. She doesn't feel good about her body so sex is uncomfortable for her psychologically and physically...

I'd be carefull of this personally, because in my experience with my ex-wife this was an excuse. She lost the weight, got lots of confidence in her body, but still no change to the lack of a sex life.

Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic

I know exactly what you're talking about. She will literally freeze up, or push me away when I try to hug/kiss her, and this is leads to feelings of rejection for me (can you say downward spiral)...

EvilBiker:

I can vouch for this as well, though it may not be because she associates it with sex, and more just that she is not attracted. It's tough to try and make the decision on divorce though, I know. Sex isn't everything, and if that's the only thing wrong, there may be a way to make things work still. But with me and my wife, the lack of sex was really more of an indicator of a lot of other problems that we had tried to ignore.

I can't really advise you on what direction you should go with this, other than to say look at everything and try to find the cause. One thing to consider, does she still mastrubate? If not, then there possibly is something up physically or psychologically, and not just disinterest in you. If she does, then there's a more than fair chance she just doesn't get excited by you specifically.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by EvilBiker

Thank for the reponses!



1. She has had hormone level tests, specifically for testosterone. All normal.

2. Yup, the effects vary from one to the other but on the whole any SSRI decreases libido, it seems. Wellbuproprion does not, and in fact, is used to treat the loss of libido in some cases. From Wikipedia:

Sure, SSRIs effect people differently as well, and different SSRIs have different effects. I take sertraline (Zolfot) at times it will increase my arousal, at others it inhibits the erection. But in general my libido follows my mood.

Quote:

3. This is true. We are hoping that the Wellbutrin will treat this without the loss of libido..

4. I'm considering another psych, but the wife is pushing back, as with every new one she has to go through the whole introduction cycle again, which is pretty traumatic.

Yes it is, the main thing is that she find a psych that she trustss, preferably who works with a therapist she trusts.

Quote:

5. Yes, we did engage in romantic therapy - we know the buttons to push. The problem is that at this stage there are such levels of guilt and apprehension involved, it can get pretty hard to follow through with. My aim at this stage is to promote the seperation of affection from sex - the wife is at the moment scared stiff of offering any affection because she believes it will lead to intercourse in all cases.

Yes intimacy should not always lead to sex, I note the use of language which would imply anxiety and cognitive conflicts. Which makes me wonder if she is having symptoms and cognitions that are part of this process. Perhaps some cognitive behavioral approaches of desensitization and identification of triggers.

Quote:

I am trying to cover all bases here before taking the divorce decision. I've been searching again today, and have found out about a new drug currently undergoing trials, which could be of some use - Bremelanotide. It looks promising, though I'm not sure when it will be out on the market.

Divorce is painful, if you both want to stay married, I would try some CBT and maybe some other medications, as well as an examination of lifestyle choices. But it is up to your wife which path she follows. I also wonder why the XTC is effective, I don't recomend it as a course of action. But it makes me to wonder.

Good luck. I tried very hard to not be divorced, my ex-wife was not willing to participate in staying together.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by EvilBiker

I'm also a bit wary of this shrink, frankly, especially when she first mentioned regression therapy. However, she comes very highly recommended...

Back up slowly, do not make eye contact, when the beast can no longer see you then run like heck.


DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER!

Get away from that psychiatrist as fast and as long as possible, as soon as possible. WOO WOO WOO WOO.

Of course that is your wife's decision.

Regression therpay , bad. Psychodynamics bad. CBT good.

[CynicalSkeptic]

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

I am sorry to hear about your problems. But...for all the medical solutions you are seeking, could it not just simply be that she's not attracted to you any longer?
...
There is a difference between not being attracted to anyone, and not being attracted to you specifically. Could it be that she has a libido, but not for you?

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but...
Well, that is something that has gone through my head as well. In fact, I wonder if she's only staying with me so I'll support her while she's in school and help with the kid, then she'll divorce me when she graduates and starts making real money. That's certainly not good for the ego, nor the feelings about the future of the relationship.

My wife has never had a relationship last over 2-3 years before our marriage, and that's about when ours started to really head south. So all these things hit at roughly the same time (birth of child / weight gain / 2 year milestone / moving to a new city & starting school).

[casebro]

Isn't there a specific drug marketed as "Viagra for Women"?

[Miss Anthrope]

Hi EB--

Well, first of all, a giant hug to you because this is a very difficult situation. I'm very sorry.

I read your post earlier and have been mulling it for a little bit. I think you've been making the efforts necessary to try and resolve this. While marriage is a relationship that transcends sex, sex is still important. And it seems like sex isn't the only major issue going on here. The comment about rape really struck me.

Issues of libido aside, sexual contact can be a loving, intimate way to connect. On a regular basis I provide sexual favors for my husband when I am not in the mood, simply because he is stressed, or just because I love him so damn much I want to do something that makes him very happy. If I can't find the drive to get in the mood, then my mood is one of love and sharing. A truly good marriage involves not just the relationship of lovers, but as PARTNERS, BEST FRIENDS, the two of you being one unit facing the world. Basic empathy is important. When my husband is hurting, it hurts my heart. When I have it in my power to make him happy or do something nice for him, it brings me joy. When I hurt him it crushes me, I feel absolutely awful. He behaves exactly the same toward me. This most definitely works all the way into the bedroom.

From the description of how the issues are flowing, that this is situation where you can't do anything right. Yes, through couples therapy you can find a nice middle ground. A good question is, are BOTH parties willing to get beyond their issues and meet on that middle ground? Is there enough humility on both sides to really see where the other partner is coming from? For the record, I see a lot of empathy from you, a sincere willingness to look for non-blaming causes for the problems. I know in a lot of relationships, some people are so caught up in their own hurt that they can't step out and realize that the other partner has needs and pain, too. If there is no willingness to do this, then little actual improvement can occur.

It seems to me you have the sex therapist and a psychiatrist telling you she's not going to improve in this department. The fact she uses the term rape, as well as the history of verbal abuse, tells me she is has some very deep, complex issues that may not just relate to brain chemistry, but a possible personality disorder that needs to be addressed. This requires a strong desire to work through it, and fearless explorations on her part. I'm not getting that she's ready for that from what you tell me, but I really couldn't know.

If I were in your shoes, the question I would be asking myself is if I am going to spend much more time waiting for her to work out her own issues. Does she truly empathize with my situation in this relationship, does she truly care about my hurt and frustration? Can she go into therapy and really work on herself in a truly productive way?

For some people I would suggest an open marriage, but I see this as absolutely disasterous for the situation.

I certainly, with all sincerity, wish you the best in this painful and complicated situation. I know there is much hard work and healing ahead of you, no matter what route you take. I apologize if anything in my reply mischaracterizes your situation.

Warmest thoughts-
MA

[RenaissanceBiker]

IF you get divorced (I'm not advising you either way there), trade your sportbike in on a Harley Davidson TC-96. Your problem will solve itself.

[MrMonty]

This is a great discussion, thanks to everyone who's contributing. Always encouraging to know there are others out there with similar problems, solutions, and methods of coping.

My wife had similar problems to EvilBiker's, just not as bad. Heavy periods and cramping. Her loss of libido happened after her OB got her on depo-provera. For 2 years we dealt with the same stuff you had to deal with, only not as bad I guess. Alcohol was my wife's best route to non-agonizing sex. Getting her off depo and me getting my vasectomy was the best thing we'd done for our marriage.

We've seen some counselors for couples and individually. I don't know if it's just bad luck but none of them seemed that good. I don't put much credence in their profession anymore.

Good luck.

[Quinn]

Hey EB,

I've been in a similar situation -- wife had zero interest in sex, or in any show of affection for fear it would lead to sex, constantly pushed me away, etc. Tried altering the meds, tried therapy, tried an open relationship. Although the divorce was possibly the most difficult and painful thing I've done, I can honestly say I'm much happier now. [ETA: And so is she.] That doesn't mean I'm telling you that's what you should do, as that's a call only you can make. But I am telling you that as horrible as it seems, it is possible to get through it and end up better off.

Ironically, my next serious relationship developed the exact opposite problem: it got to the point where the sex was the only good thing about it, and any time we weren't ***********, we wanted to kill each other. For future reference, that's no good either.

[CynicalSkeptic]

Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker

IF you get divorced (I'm not advising you either way there), trade your sportbike in on a Harley Davidson TC-96. Your problem will solve itself.

??? 'Cuz it'll vibrate his nuts off and kill his Libido too?

[Charles Livingston]

Originally Posted by Miss Anthrope

Hi EB--

Well, first of all, a giant hug to you because this is a very difficult situation. I'm very sorry.

I read your post earlier and have been mulling it for a little bit. I think you've been making the efforts necessary to try and resolve this. While marriage is a relationship that transcends sex, sex is still important. And it seems like sex isn't the only major issue going on here. The comment about rape really struck me.

Issues of libido aside, sexual contact can be a loving, intimate way to connect. On a regular basis I provide sexual favors for my husband when I am not in the mood, simply because he is stressed, or just because I love him so damn much I want to do something that makes him very happy. If I can't find the drive to get in the mood, then my mood is one of love and sharing. A truly good marriage involves not just the relationship of lovers, but as PARTNERS, BEST FRIENDS, the two of you being one unit facing the world. Basic empathy is important. When my husband is hurting, it hurts my heart. When I have it in my power to make him happy or do something nice for him, it brings me joy. When I hurt him it crushes me, I feel absolutely awful. He behaves exactly the same toward me. This most definitely works all the way into the bedroom.

From the description of how the issues are flowing, that this is situation where you can't do anything right. Yes, through couples therapy you can find a nice middle ground. A good question is, are BOTH parties willing to get beyond their issues and meet on that middle ground? Is there enough humility on both sides to really see where the other partner is coming from? For the record, I see a lot of empathy from you, a sincere willingness to look for non-blaming causes for the problems. I know in a lot of relationships, some people are so caught up in their own hurt that they can't step out and realize that the other partner has needs and pain, too. If there is no willingness to do this, then little actual improvement can occur.

It seems to me you have the sex therapist and a psychiatrist telling you she's not going to improve in this department. The fact she uses the term rape, as well as the history of verbal abuse, tells me she is has some very deep, complex issues that may not just relate to brain chemistry, but a possible personality disorder that needs to be addressed. This requires a strong desire to work through it, and fearless explorations on her part. I'm not getting that she's ready for that from what you tell me, but I really couldn't know.

If I were in your shoes, the question I would be asking myself is if I am going to spend much more time waiting for her to work out her own issues. Does she truly empathize with my situation in this relationship, does she truly care about my hurt and frustration? Can she go into therapy and really work on herself in a truly productive way?

For some people I would suggest an open marriage, but I see this as absolutely disasterous for the situation.

I certainly, with all sincerity, wish you the best in this painful and complicated situation. I know there is much hard work and healing ahead of you, no matter what route you take. I apologize if anything in my reply mischaracterizes your situation.

Warmest thoughts-
MA

If I had any idea how, I would nominate this. Very well said. While I understand why tkingdoll suggested it, I agree with Miss A that an open relationship could spell trouble for this situtation.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by EvilBiker

So, the alternatives:

1. I must compromise and never again have normal sex with her. She is open to maybe taking Ecstacy once a month, as she enjoys sex on the drug, as long as she is convinced there are no long term effects from the use thereof. I don't like this idea, to be honest. Firstly, the drug is illegal, which means the only supply is erratic in terms of quality, and secondly, I believe it is basically papering over the problem.

2. Get divorced.

3. Get a girlfriend for booty calls

Seriously.

[tkingdoll]

Originally Posted by Charles Livingston

If I had any idea how, I would nominate this. Very well said. While I understand why tkingdoll suggested it, I agree with Miss A that an open relationship could spell trouble for this situtation.

Yeah, I think Miss A's post was very well-thought out and reasonable. I was just throwing suggestions out there because I hate to see a marriage fail, but on reflection there could be underlying emotional issues which would render that a bad idea. I guess I was working on the assumption that Mrs EvilBiker was emotionally balanced - if that's not the case then even suggesting an open marriage could be a disaster. My understanding is that one requires a stable emotional foundation. If that's not present in this case then I would consider my suggestion the wrong one.

ETA: I also thought of nominating Miss A's post but I wasn't sure it was very tactful given the nature of the thread.

[Charles Livingston]

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

Yeah, I think Miss A's post was very well-thought out and reasonable. I was just throwing suggestions out there because I hate to see a marriage fail, but on reflection there could be underlying emotional issues which would render that a bad idea. I guess I was working on the assumption that Mrs EvilBiker was emotionally balanced - if that's not the case then even suggesting an open marriage could be a disaster. My understanding is that one requires a stable emotional foundation. If that's not present in this case then I would consider my suggestion the wrong one.

ETA: I also thought of nominating Miss A's post but I wasn't sure it was very tactful given the nature of the thread.

Your suggestion was my initial thought too. Well, at least after I read your initial post.

ETA: Good point about the nature of the thread.

[skeptifem]

there is some research going on to see if the use of the pill can have a permanent effect on libido. I know the pill killed my sex drive.

There are physical reasons the libido can dissapear as well though. Maybe she should get a gynological exam of some sort or just a normal physical to see if there is something else causing the problem.

[EvilBiker]

Thanks for all the responses. Although this may sound like a really crappy thing to say, I'm glad that others have had the same problems I have. I think you get what I mean by that.

I'll try and respond to all of you - please forgive if I miss anybody out.

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

I am sorry to hear about your problems. But...for all the medical solutions you are seeking, could it not just simply be that she's not attracted to you any longer?

Originally Posted by Crazycowbob

I can't really advise you on what direction you should go with this, other than to say look at everything and try to find the cause. One thing to consider, does she still mastrubate? If not, then there possibly is something up physically or psychologically, and not just disinterest in you. If she does, then there's a more than fair chance she just doesn't get excited by you specifically.

She is still attracted to me - this is actually something the sex therapist brought up. She could not believe that my wife was not getting nookie somewhere else. This is definitely not the case. It is just that the wife does not have any interest in sex right now. She does not masturbate either.

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

Have you discussed experimenting with an open relationship? You get to keep the love but your sexual needs are fulfilled elsewhere? I've never tried it and not sure how it works long-term but if you want the love and companionship from each other and can separate the sex, it might be something to consider. There is at least one person on this forum in a successful open relationship, I believe.

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

3. Get a girlfriend for booty calls
Seriously.

The open relationship idea was floated briefly, but it didn't fly. Regarding a girlfriend, I cannot consider that - my conscience would drown me in guilt.

[EvilBiker]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Well I guess it depends on how important sex is for you. How about taking a vacation from each other? I'm not sure exactly why you need to be married if you don't have and aren't planning to have kids. In fact you said that getting married was about the point when the relationship began to head south. "Giving up" doesn't seem like a big problem if there are no kids. You are both adults, and you just need to meet someone else and try again. Time will heal the heart, but first you have to make a clean break.

We are considering a seperation, but not in the formal sense. We recognise the need for time alone, something which our daily lives has not really allowed us. It's a fine balance between spending quality time together (weekends away, etc.) and having time for ourselves. Our weeks are hectic, we only really get to connect on weekends. Tricky one, but something we need to sort out.

Regarding marriage sans kids. It's more of a protection issue, I suppose. Common law marriage in this country is still sort of rough around the edges when it comes to estate issues after death. Considering that I am 16 years older than my wife, I am pretty much assured of kicking the bucket before her, and I don't want her to have to deal with all sorts of legal issues.

[EvilBiker]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Back up slowly, do not make eye contact, when the beast can no longer see you then run like heck.
DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER!
Get away from that psychiatrist as fast and as long as possible, as soon as possible. WOO WOO WOO WOO.
Of course that is your wife's decision.
Regression therpay , bad. Psychodynamics bad. CBT good.

You know, some of my skepticism rubbed off on my wife. She was the one who went "Regression therapy? Bleah! Woo!" when it was first mentioned by the psych. I gather the psych got the point, and didn't mention it again.

[EvilBiker]

Originally Posted by casebro

Isn't there a specific drug marketed as "Viagra for Women"?

I've found nothing that is not doused in woo at this stage. As I mentioned in my initial post, I looked at Scentuelle, which has no proper test data (tried it anyway), and the only other one that looks like having some credence attached is Bremelanotide (http://www.palatin.com/products/brem...e/overview.asp). The drug is currently in Phase 2b clinical trials - not sure when it will be released.

[EvilBiker]

Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker

IF you get divorced (I'm not advising you either way there), trade your sportbike in on a Harley Davidson TC-96. Your problem will solve itself.

Ah, now I get the username. Does Renaissance refer to the era when your machinery was produced?
Just kidding, mate. I'm not the cruiser type, I prefer the speed.

Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic

??? 'Cuz it'll vibrate his nuts off and kill his Libido too?

[Brian Jackson]

I just came from a similar situation. My ex had no desire for intimacy whatsoever and it made the relationship boring. So I left. Anybody that tells you sex isn't that important is attempting to justify why they aren't gettin' any. Granted there's more to a marriage than sex, but when that valve is turned off... It's kinda like vitamin C: you don't need much, but without that daily dose we get scurvy.

[EvilBiker]

Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic

I'm in a similar situation, though not quite as bad. Sex went from nearly daily, to about 1/month seemingly overnight. There is/was also verbal (and sometimes physical) abuse. She has said that sex maybe twice a month would be ok with her, of course I'm thinking more like 3-4 times per week.

Like you, I gave her an ultimatum of either seek help, or divorce, which she did (this was more for the abuse then the lack of sex), and now we're actually in couples counseling as well as individual counseling. We had been to marriage counseling previously, but moved away from our first one, and had a lousy second one. Now we've found a very good psychologist, and we're dealing with real issues that go back to childhood.

Also, like your situation even when she does agree to sex, she often doesn't enjoy it, but merely tolerates it to try to appease me, but that is a thoroughly unsatisfying experience, and has actually led to more fights. Also like you, she enjoys it more when using drugs (weed in our case, haven't tried ecstasy, wouldn't even know where to get it (she's hinted at that as she used to be into the rave scene)).

One of the issues that she actually acknowledges is her weight. She gained a lot during her pregnancy, and has not lost it in the two+ years since. She doesn't feel good about her body so sex is uncomfortable for her psychologically and physically.

Another issue that has only surfaced in counseling has to do with our daughter. She has a medical condition, and it impacts my wife much more emotionally than it does me. Because I rationalize everything, my wife doesn't think I care or feel as deeply as she does about our daughter's situation, so she doesn't feel as connected to me, so that's another sexual turn-off for her.

CS, you are hitting the right points here. You seem to have exactly the same sort of situation - thanks for sharing.

I'll touch on two points:

1. On your daughter and the connection issue. When we first met, the wife was quite involved with the Wiccan philosophy - as a skeptic, I at first was pretty off-handed about it, which did, for a time, lead to some serious friction. I believe we have moved past that point, but it may have left scars. For a long time, she felt that we were not "connecting", because she could not believe I saw the world as she did. Sexual turnoff, definitely.

2. Weight - my wife has also put on weight, not much, about 8 kgs or so. She is actively trying to lose it, but it does affect how she feels. In my case, however, when she did lose weight in the last cycle (about 2 years ago), and looked smoking hot, it didn't do anything to her sex drive, and I ended up getting even more frustrated - I mean damn, how would you feel if you had this utter babe lying next to you and you could not do anything??? Argh.

I'll bring up some more on the issues in a summary post later on. On the good side, it seems like you are finding solutions?

[EvilBiker]

Originally Posted by Quinn

Ironically, my next serious relationship developed the exact opposite problem: it got to the point where the sex was the only good thing about it, and any time we weren't ***********, we wanted to kill each other. For future reference, that's no good either.

Been there! One of my previous relationships was very sexual, but nothing else. The extremes on both sides suck.

Glad you are happier now!

[EvilBiker]

Originally Posted by nails3jesus0

there is some research going on to see if the use of the pill can have a permanent effect on libido. I know the pill killed my sex drive.

There are physical reasons the libido can dissapear as well though. Maybe she should get a gynological exam of some sort or just a normal physical to see if there is something else causing the problem.

I've seen a lot of stuff on the effect of the Pill, especially on the point of it killing off sex drive. I wish they would tell young women this when they start out using it.

Regarding gynae exams, she's been down that road - there are no physical problems.

[Slimething]

EB, I feel your pain. I"ve been there and miscalculated badly. I don't offer personal advice to anyone, nor should anyone let others decide what to do in such matters. It's a painful decision you must make.

My ex started off much like yours after our first child. What I first thought was her not liking sex turned out to be a protracted nervous breakdown. She got better for a while and we had a second child. (dum-dum-dum) Then she took up weed and vodka and, after 18.5 y of marriage, greeted me when I got home with the news that she had retained a lawyer. The poor woman is basically a see-through cutout of what she had once been. I am attracted to strong, intelligent women and the one I married couldn't be topped. In the end, I tried to save her but it was beyond my ability. No winners.

So, you have no kids but you love and want to help your wife. Divorce won't be difficult, comparatively. Walking away will be, though. I have no idea which path you'll take but I wish both of you the very best possible outcome.