Stupid, stupid vegans kill their own baby

Yuri Nalyssus · 21st May 2007, 09:50 AM

I know being rude about vegans has the feel somehow of kicking a puppy, what with their gentle, animal loving natures and all but this example of the death of an innocent caused by trendy dietary faddishness has made my blood boil.

Quote:

WHEN Crown Shakur died of starvation, he was 6 weeks old and weighed 3.5 pounds. His vegan parents, who fed him mainly soy milk and apple juice, were convicted in Atlanta recently of murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty... An adult who was well-nourished in utero and in infancy may choose to get by on a vegan diet, but babies are built from protein, calcium, cholesterol and fish oil. Children fed only plants will not get the precious things they need to live and grow.

Yuri

EeneyMinnieMoe · 21st May 2007, 10:12 AM

Incredible. I've always disliked hippies and spat on vegeterarians, vegans and any other class of nutjob but this time, it's not veganism per se to blame, it's insanity. Those must just be sick people.

I abstain from veal because it's flat out morally wrong to eat it and I never particularly liked veal anyway but other than that, I see nothing wrong with eating meat, like nature intended us to.

Orangutan · 21st May 2007, 10:13 AM

This is tragic. And I'm assuming these are educated people.

fuelair · 21st May 2007, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Orangutan

This is tragic. And I'm assuming these are educated people.

Their baby was named Crown. I fear I do not share your assumption!!

Oualawouzou · 21st May 2007, 10:38 AM

How the heck can you not worry about your newborn baby fading away like that?

Two years ago, I would have found this sickening. Now that I'm a father, I find this sickening, infuriating and just plain disgusting on every level. Words fail to convey the emotion.

EeneyMinnieMoe · 21st May 2007, 10:46 AM

Quite honestly, I think it's better that the baby died instead of surviving with brain damage and physical disability you'd get from this type of malnutrition.

Then again, I'm not a parent and I shouldn't say.

jimbob · 21st May 2007, 10:57 AM

6 weeks old,

Surely you would have to be an insanly fundamentalist vegan *not* to breastfeed a child at that age. Yes I *do* know that breastmilk is an animal product, but surely an exception can be made...

I'm with Oualawouzouon this.

ob986s · 21st May 2007, 11:04 AM

I am related to the Prosecutor on this case (wife's cousins husband which officially makes him nothing to me, but i will say related) Next time I see him I will ask about the situation. From reading the local papers about the case it appears they were stupid and believing too much of the Vegan Woo. I'll see if I can get anything from Chuck to add to this thread.

Jon

Foster Zygote · 21st May 2007, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

6 weeks old,

Surely you would have to be an insanly fundamentalist vegan *not* to breastfeed a child at that age. Yes I *do* know that breastmilk is an animal product, but surely an exception can be made...

I'm with Oualawouzouon this.

I know that some mothers have difficulty with breastfeeding. And I mean physical difficulty, not emotional difficulty. But if they refused to breast feed that poor child because they thought that it somehow offended their vegan convictions then they are just plain stupid. I'm talking about heavy duty stupidity too, not run of the mill stupidity. The kind of stupidity that leads to parents watching their infant starve to death when it would be simple for them to raise a well nourished, healthy child.

hcmom · 21st May 2007, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

Incredible. I've always disliked hippies and spat on vegeterarians, vegans and any other class of nutjob but this time, it's not veganism per se to blame, it's insanity. Those must just be sick people.

I abstain from veal because it's flat out morally wrong to eat it and I never particularly liked veal anyway but other than that, I see nothing wrong with eating meat, like nature intended us to.

Nature may have intended us to eat meat, but that doesn't mean we can't choose not to.

I'm not seeing this as vegan nut-ism (of course my opinion on vegans is biased...) but just a plain old case of some people not being suited for the human race.

Yuri Nalyssus · 21st May 2007, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

I know that some mothers have difficulty with breastfeeding. And I mean physical difficulty, not emotional difficulty. But if they refused to breast feed that poor child because they thought that it somehow offended their vegan convictions then they are just plain stupid. I'm talking about heavy duty stupidity too, not run of the mill stupidity. The kind of stupidity that leads to parents watching their infant starve to death when it would be simple for them to raise a well nourished, healthy child.

I'm assuming that the mother was unable to breast feed for some reason then refused, for reasons of dogma, to feed baby milk supplement because it contains animal products. Surely no-one would refuse to breast feed... surely...

Anthropoveganism, now there's a thought, I mean, people are animals too.

Yuri

Juustin · 21st May 2007, 11:34 AM

I'll admit to being a vegetarian for about 11 years, about 2 of them were spent as a vegan. That qualifies me to speak as an "animal rights nutjob" when saying these people are obviously sick in the head. For the record, I'm just a vegetarian for personal ethical reasons, I'm not one of those get-up-in-your-face/throw-paint-at-old-ladies nutjobs.

Frankly, I don't care what your convictions are, your first responsibility as a parent is to make sure your infant is safe and healthy. I'm against armed robbery, but if my *infant needs medicine or he/she will die, and I absolutely have no way to get it, I'm going to steal it. How you can make the central theme of your life being "cruelty free" and letting your baby waste away to nothing is beyond me.

*This infant is hypothetical, as far as I know.

ponderingturtle · 21st May 2007, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Their baby was named Crown. I fear I do not share your assumption!!

You are confusing educated and smart.

hcmom · 21st May 2007, 11:40 AM

I've now read the linked article, and I have to say I have problems with it, too.

Quote:

...but babies are built from protein, calcium, cholesterol and fish oil.

Uh... fish oil? I can say with utmost certainty that my babies had NO fish oil in their diet, as they were nurslings until nearly 6 months of age. And there are plenty of babies who are lactose-intolerant, and can only have soy-based formula, so the problem isn't likely to be that aspect of it.

kbm99 · 21st May 2007, 11:40 AM

This has been hashed over at length in this thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=81755

From my (admittedly limited) knowledge of this case, it's not so much *what* the parents were feeding the kid, but the fact that they simply were not feeding him enough of anything at all. It's not the vegan diet that was the problem, the kid just plain starved to death.

joobz · 21st May 2007, 11:42 AM

How do vegan Indians feed thier babies when breast milk isn't an option?

Also, How can they let an infant go 1 week without gaining weight and not be concerned?

Lynx2174 · 21st May 2007, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

Anthropoveganism, now there's a thought, I mean, people are animals too.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with abstaining from the soylent green.

kbm99 · 21st May 2007, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by joobz

How do vegan Indians feed thier babies when breast milk isn't an option?

Why are you of the impression that vegan parents don't breastfeed?

strathmeyer · 21st May 2007, 11:55 AM

It's perfectly legal for religious people to kill their children this way; was is veganism any different?

joobz · 21st May 2007, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by kbm99

Why are you of the impression that vegan parents don't breastfeed?

I'm not. I'm asking about a culture that has a long history of veganism. How do they handle situations where the mother can't breast feed. There are instances (see above comments) where a mother is physically unable to breast feed.

What is done in these situations? Do they use wetnurses or are there supplements that is considered appropriate?

Terry · 21st May 2007, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

Incredible. I've always disliked hippies and spat on vegeterarians, vegans and any other class of nutjob

What an enlightened and fact-based attitude to people's individual diet choices. Well done, old chap.

headscratcher4 · 21st May 2007, 12:33 PM

I think they were simply. irresponsible vegans. IF they were stupid vegans, they would have eaten their own baby.

brodski · 21st May 2007, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by strathmeyer

It's perfectly legal for religious people to kill their children this way; was is veganism any different?

Its legal for the religious to starve their kids to death? Do you have a case, law or ruling to back that up?
I can't bring myself to believe that the first amendment protects murder or manslaughter.

tracer · 21st May 2007, 12:47 PM

Was there any visible indication that the baby was in dire nutritional straits before it died?

joobz · 21st May 2007, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by tracer

Was there any visible indication that the baby was in dire nutritional straits before it died?

I think the whole 3.5 lbs at 6 weeks (presuming not a premature birth) is evidence of nutritional dire straights.

kbm99 · 21st May 2007, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by joobz

I'm not. I'm asking about a culture that has a long history of veganism. How do they handle situations where the mother can't breast feed. There are instances (see above comments) where a mother is physically unable to breast feed.

What is done in these situations? Do they use wetnurses or are there supplements that is considered appropriate?

Sorry about the misapprehension on my part. I know there are soya-based formulas available in some parts of the world. It may also be the case (I do not know myself) that the strict dietary rules for adults are not universally applied to children.

Fnord · 21st May 2007, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Speaker-To-Animals

How much cunning do you need to stalk a blade of grass? How much strength to kill it?

Some people use intellect and reason to enter into a dietary system.

Others are in tune enough with their own emotions and feelings to know when a dietary system is or is not working.

Then there are those Vegans who ignore all reason and compassion in their quest for the 'perfect' diet.

I think that this last group was what Larry Niven had in mind when he penned the quote above.

Yuri Nalyssus · 21st May 2007, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by joobz

I'm not. I'm asking about a culture that has a long history of veganism. How do they handle situations where the mother can't breast feed. There are instances (see above comments) where a mother is physically unable to breast feed.

Name me a society that is vegan (as opposed to vegetarian) based please.

In many societies, without the benefit of synthesised baby milk substitute, it would be impossible to rear babies whose mothers were unable to breastfeed unless a wet nurse was available. In the society I live in such milk substitutes are available, the coice is there - either you compromise your dogma or your baby dies.

Yuri

ponderingturtle · 21st May 2007, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by strathmeyer

It's perfectly legal for religious people to kill their children this way; was is veganism any different?

Depends on the state. In california it seems to be legal to deny medical treatment to a child for religious reasons, unless they die in which case religion is not a valid excuse to avoid the manslaughter charges.

Yuri Nalyssus · 21st May 2007, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

Incredible. I've always disliked hippies and spat on vegeterarians, vegans and any other class of nutjob but this time, it's not veganism per se to blame, it's insanity. Those must just be sick people.

I abstain from veal because it's flat out morally wrong to eat it and I never particularly liked veal anyway but other than that, I see nothing wrong with eating meat, like nature intended us to.

Some people think it's wasteful and morally wrong not to eat veal. Rose veal is an ethical alternative to crate reared and means there would no longer be a need to euthanase male calves as they are born - they can be reared outdoors in a humane manner until slaughter at 6 to 7 months of age.

I have no problem with (in fact I have respect for) vegetarians who have considered the ethics of eating meat and come to a rational decision. I dislike evangelical vegetarians who believe that it is a "natural" diet for human kind despite all historical and anatomical evidence to the contrary.

The food-faddies I despise most are carnivores who eat meat but come over all squeamish when it's pointed out to them that meat comes from dead animals.

Yuri

andyandy · 21st May 2007, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

I abstain from veal because it's flat out morally wrong to eat it and I never particularly liked veal anyway but other than that, I see nothing wrong with eating meat, like nature intended us to.

you do know the "like nature intended us to" argument can be applied for a justification of sex with anyone once they reach puberty? That is to say, it's not a particularly paletable reason - and is not IMO a valid reason in itself as to why one should eat meat.

cloudshipsrule · 21st May 2007, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Also, How can they let an infant go 1 week without gaining weight and not be concerned?

Ignorance

joobz · 21st May 2007, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

Name me a society that is vegan (as opposed to vegetarian) based please.

In many societies, without the benefit of synthesised baby milk substitute, it would be impossible to rear babies whose mothers were unable to breastfeed unless a wet nurse was available. In the society I live in such milk substitutes are available, the coice is there - either you compromise your dogma or your baby dies.

Yuri

This is what I was wondering. I was under the impression that some Brahmin were pure vegan, and I was wondering how they take care of children.

ClintonHammond · 21st May 2007, 02:34 PM

Ya... Ignorance.

By the bucket-load!

Yuri Nalyssus · 21st May 2007, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by joobz

This is what I was wondering. I was under the impression that some Brahmin were pure vegan, and I was wondering how they take care of children.

If you look here you will find many half baked religious based justifications for veganism but the movement is essentially a modern construct, an outgrowth of vegitarianism with no basis in religion or society at large ancient or modern.

Look elsewhere on the web site and also this one and you will find much mealy mouthed pseudoscientific blather about the nutritional qualities of such a diet. There is carefully spun talk of calcium levels being barely adequate for adults and vitamin D levels being just fine, again for adults, just so long as you spend every moment you can outdoors and lots of waffle about how vitamin B12 is derived from bacteria while avoiding mentioning how much or how little is present in a vegan diet.

My take on the propaganda is that adults can survive on a vegan diet only if heavily supplemented and I am left to assume (given this pro-vegan site avoids mentioning it) that it is impossible to rear a human child on a vegan diet.

These people are as hypocritial as anti-vivisectionists who decide it's ok to take drugs when it's them that's ill as opposed to other people. They couldn't possibly survive in anything other than modern, western society where a ready supply of artificial supplements is available. Their "lifestyle" is a fake contrivance.

Yuri

andyandy · 21st May 2007, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

My take on the propaganda is that adults can survive on a vegan diet only if heavily supplemented and I am left to assume (given this pro-vegan site avoids mentioning it) that it is impossible to rear a human child on a vegan diet.

Yuri

This is quite an assumption isn't it? As far as i'm aware, lot's of people do raise their children on vegan diets....

a cursory web search...

http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/WELCO...nchildren.html

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/kids.htm

and from the informative BBC food site

Quote:

Vegetarian and vegan diets can be a healthy way of eating for all age groups - provided that enough thought is given to balance youngsters’ diets. There are potential pitfalls (getting adequate amounts of B12 and iron, for example, is likely to require planning) but provided that parents (and teenagers) understand how to balance their requirements, vegetarian and vegan diets can be healthy and adequately nutritious.

EeneyMinnieMoe · 21st May 2007, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by andyandy

you do know the "like nature intended us to" argument can be applied for a justification of sex with anyone once they reach puberty? That is to say, it's not a particularly paletable reason - and is not IMO a valid reason in itself as to why one should eat meat.

No. It's not natural for a 12-year-old to have sex or want to have sex with an adult. Really want, not bang it out to Dad's porn collection.

It interferes with their natural sexual developement.

Ok then, here are some other reasons: it's healthy, supplies nutrients that are hard to replace and very hard to maintain a full-time diet on when you do, performs the function of population control, is morally justifiable because those animals eat other animals which in turn eat other animals, keeps the economy going, gives many people around the world a livelihood, keeps many people around the world who can't afford to only eat plants alive and tastes great.

EeneyMinnieMoe · 21st May 2007, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Terry

What an enlightened and fact-based attitude to people's individual diet choices. Well done, old chap.

I'm sorry but I'm with South Park: if you don't eat meat, you're a p*ssy. Crude and harsh but funny and true.

And if you don't recognize that those animals are just animals and are as "cruel" to other animals as you think you're being to them, you're a delusional p*ssy.

However, by all means don't eat meat- more for the rest of us.

Par · 21st May 2007, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

They couldn't possibly survive in anything other than modern, western society where a ready supply of artificial supplements is available.

Even if that were true, well, so what?

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

Their "lifestyle" is a fake contrivance

What do you mean by this exactly? Do you apply this sort of pejorative language to all lifestyles that require modern, developed society? Is posting on the JREF forum a “fake contrivance”?

andyandy · 21st May 2007, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

I'm sorry but I'm with South Park: if you don't eat meat, you're a p*ssy. Crude and harsh but funny and true.
.

it's only funny in southpark because you can laugh at cartman's ignorance. Said in seriousness, it's a pretty moronic thing to say.

21st May 2007, 09:50 AM	#1
Yuri Nalyssus Muse Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 705	Stupid, stupid vegans kill their own baby I know being rude about vegans has the feel somehow of kicking a puppy, what with their gentle, animal loving natures and all but this example of the death of an innocent caused by trendy dietary faddishness has made my blood boil. Quote: WHEN Crown Shakur died of starvation, he was 6 weeks old and weighed 3.5 pounds. His vegan parents, who fed him mainly soy milk and apple juice, were convicted in Atlanta recently of murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty... An adult who was well-nourished in utero and in infancy may choose to get by on a vegan diet, but babies are built from protein, calcium, cholesterol and fish oil. Children fed only plants will not get the precious things they need to live and grow. Yuri
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail

21st May 2007, 10:15 AM	#4
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 18,501	Originally Posted by Orangutan This is tragic. And I'm assuming these are educated people. Their baby was named Crown. I fear I do not share your assumption!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 18,501

21st May 2007, 11:04 AM	#8
ob986s Scholar Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 104	I am related to the Prosecutor on this case (wife's cousins husband which officially makes him nothing to me, but i will say related) Next time I see him I will ask about the situation. From reading the local papers about the case it appears they were stupid and believing too much of the Vegan Woo. I'll see if I can get anything from Chuck to add to this thread. Jon
ob986s Scholar Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 104

21st May 2007, 11:12 AM	#9
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: under the water where the shark bubbles blow Posts: 8,672	Originally Posted by jimbob 6 weeks old, Surely you would have to be an insanly fundamentalist vegan not to breastfeed a child at that age. Yes I do know that breastmilk is an animal product, but surely an exception can be made... I'm with Oualawouzouon this. I know that some mothers have difficulty with breastfeeding. And I mean physical difficulty, not emotional difficulty. But if they refused to breast feed that poor child because they thought that it somehow offended their vegan convictions then they are just plain stupid. I'm talking about heavy duty stupidity too, not run of the mill stupidity. The kind of stupidity that leads to parents watching their infant starve to death when it would be simple for them to raise a well nourished, healthy child.
	__________________ Minions... ATTACK!!!

21st May 2007, 11:29 AM	#10
hcmom Tagger Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Probably lost. Posts: 9,277	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe Incredible. I've always disliked hippies and spat on vegeterarians, vegans and any other class of nutjob but this time, it's not veganism per se to blame, it's insanity. Those must just be sick people. I abstain from veal because it's flat out morally wrong to eat it and I never particularly liked veal anyway but other than that, I see nothing wrong with eating meat, like nature intended us to. Nature may have intended us to eat meat, but that doesn't mean we can't choose not to. I'm not seeing this as vegan nut-ism (of course my opinion on vegans is biased...) but just a plain old case of some people not being suited for the human race.
	__________________ JeffWagg> hcmom, you can feel that way if you want, but you're quite innocent. Curnir> Hcmom. taking reality into a wholly new direction

21st May 2007, 10:12 AM	#2
EeneyMinnieMoe Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 5,813	Incredible. I've always disliked hippies and spat on vegeterarians, vegans and any other class of nutjob but this time, it's not veganism per se to blame, it's insanity. Those must just be sick people. I abstain from veal because it's flat out morally wrong to eat it and I never particularly liked veal anyway but other than that, I see nothing wrong with eating meat, like nature intended us to.

21st May 2007, 10:13 AM	#3
Orangutan Graduate Poster Tagger Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Florida. Posts: 1,163	This is tragic. And I'm assuming these are educated people.

21st May 2007, 10:38 AM	#5
Oualawouzou Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 355	How the heck can you not worry about your newborn baby fading away like that? Two years ago, I would have found this sickening. Now that I'm a father, I find this sickening, infuriating and just plain disgusting on every level. Words fail to convey the emotion.

21st May 2007, 10:46 AM	#6
EeneyMinnieMoe Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 5,813	Quite honestly, I think it's better that the baby died instead of surviving with brain damage and physical disability you'd get from this type of malnutrition. Then again, I'm not a parent and I shouldn't say.

21st May 2007, 10:57 AM	#7
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Derbyshire, UK Posts: 3,633	6 weeks old, Surely you would have to be an insanly fundamentalist vegan not to breastfeed a child at that age. Yes I do know that breastmilk is an animal product, but surely an exception can be made... I'm with Oualawouzouon this.

21st May 2007, 11:32 AM	#11
Yuri Nalyssus Muse Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 705	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote I know that some mothers have difficulty with breastfeeding. And I mean physical difficulty, not emotional difficulty. But if they refused to breast feed that poor child because they thought that it somehow offended their vegan convictions then they are just plain stupid. I'm talking about heavy duty stupidity too, not run of the mill stupidity. The kind of stupidity that leads to parents watching their infant starve to death when it would be simple for them to raise a well nourished, healthy child. I'm assuming that the mother was unable to breast feed for some reason then refused, for reasons of dogma, to feed baby milk supplement because it contains animal products. Surely no-one would refuse to breast feed... surely... Anthropoveganism, now there's a thought, I mean, people are animals too. Yuri
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail

21st May 2007, 11:34 AM	#12
Juustin Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Schenectady, NY Posts: 501	I'll admit to being a vegetarian for about 11 years, about 2 of them were spent as a vegan. That qualifies me to speak as an "animal rights nutjob" when saying these people are obviously sick in the head. For the record, I'm just a vegetarian for personal ethical reasons, I'm not one of those get-up-in-your-face/throw-paint-at-old-ladies nutjobs. Frankly, I don't care what your convictions are, your first responsibility as a parent is to make sure your infant is safe and healthy. I'm against armed robbery, but if my infant needs medicine or he/she will die, and I absolutely have no way to get it, I'm going to steal it. How you can make the central theme of your life being "cruelty free" and letting your baby waste away to nothing is beyond me. This infant is hypothetical, as far as I know.
	__________________ Science has all the answers. We just don't have all the science. - James Morrow

21st May 2007, 11:38 AM	#13
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Bronx, NY Posts: 21,689	Originally Posted by fuelair Their baby was named Crown. I fear I do not share your assumption!! You are confusing educated and smart.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

21st May 2007, 11:40 AM	#14
hcmom Tagger Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Probably lost. Posts: 9,277	I've now read the linked article, and I have to say I have problems with it, too. Quote: ...but babies are built from protein, calcium, cholesterol and fish oil. Uh... fish oil? I can say with utmost certainty that my babies had NO fish oil in their diet, as they were nurslings until nearly 6 months of age. And there are plenty of babies who are lactose-intolerant, and can only have soy-based formula, so the problem isn't likely to be that aspect of it.
	__________________ JeffWagg> hcmom, you can feel that way if you want, but you're quite innocent. Curnir> Hcmom. taking reality into a wholly new direction

21st May 2007, 11:40 AM	#15
kbm99 Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 241	This has been hashed over at length in this thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=81755 From my (admittedly limited) knowledge of this case, it's not so much what the parents were feeding the kid, but the fact that they simply were not feeding him enough of anything at all. It's not the vegan diet that was the problem, the kid just plain starved to death.
kbm99 Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 241

21st May 2007, 11:42 AM	#16
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Inside the Magical Murder Bag Posts: 13,831	How do vegan Indians feed thier babies when breast milk isn't an option? Also, How can they let an infant go 1 week without gaining weight and not be concerned?
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

21st May 2007, 11:48 AM	#17
Lynx2174 Thinker Join Date: May 2005 Location: California Posts: 248	Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus Anthropoveganism, now there's a thought, I mean, people are animals too. Hey, there's nothing wrong with abstaining from the soylent green.
	__________________ Fight apathy or dont. This isn't *********** rocket surgery.

21st May 2007, 11:53 AM	#18
kbm99 Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 241	Originally Posted by joobz How do vegan Indians feed thier babies when breast milk isn't an option? Why are you of the impression that vegan parents don't breastfeed?
kbm99 Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 241

21st May 2007, 11:55 AM	#19
strathmeyer seriously unable to be serious Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Posts: 2,382	It's perfectly legal for religious people to kill their children this way; was is veganism any different?

21st May 2007, 12:11 PM	#20
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Inside the Magical Murder Bag Posts: 13,831	Originally Posted by kbm99 Why are you of the impression that vegan parents don't breastfeed? I'm not. I'm asking about a culture that has a long history of veganism. How do they handle situations where the mother can't breast feed. There are instances (see above comments) where a mother is physically unable to breast feed. What is done in these situations? Do they use wetnurses or are there supplements that is considered appropriate?
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

21st May 2007, 12:22 PM	#21
Terry Zeitgeist-impaired Technical Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: logged in to the server Posts: 6,426	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe Incredible. I've always disliked hippies and spat on vegeterarians, vegans and any other class of nutjob What an enlightened and fact-based attitude to people's individual diet choices. Well done, old chap.

21st May 2007, 12:33 PM	#22
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,014	I think they were simply. irresponsible vegans. IF they were stupid vegans, they would have eaten their own baby.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

21st May 2007, 12:35 PM	#23
brodski faceless bureaucrat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: the three Chiltern Hundreds of Stoke, Desborough and Burnham Posts: 12,120	Originally Posted by strathmeyer It's perfectly legal for religious people to kill their children this way; was is veganism any different? Its legal for the religious to starve their kids to death? Do you have a case, law or ruling to back that up? I can't bring myself to believe that the first amendment protects murder or manslaughter.
	__________________ This toilet is not a designated bomb shelter.

21st May 2007, 12:47 PM	#24
tracer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Silicon Valley, Calif. Posts: 1,341	Was there any visible indication that the baby was in dire nutritional straits before it died?

21st May 2007, 12:59 PM	#25
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Inside the Magical Murder Bag Posts: 13,831	Originally Posted by tracer Was there any visible indication that the baby was in dire nutritional straits before it died? I think the whole 3.5 lbs at 6 weeks (presuming not a premature birth) is evidence of nutritional dire straights.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

21st May 2007, 01:01 PM	#26
kbm99 Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 241	Originally Posted by joobz I'm not. I'm asking about a culture that has a long history of veganism. How do they handle situations where the mother can't breast feed. There are instances (see above comments) where a mother is physically unable to breast feed. What is done in these situations? Do they use wetnurses or are there supplements that is considered appropriate? Sorry about the misapprehension on my part. I know there are soya-based formulas available in some parts of the world. It may also be the case (I do not know myself) that the strict dietary rules for adults are not universally applied to children.
kbm99 Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 241

21st May 2007, 01:07 PM	#27
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,105	Originally Posted by Speaker-To-Animals How much cunning do you need to stalk a blade of grass? How much strength to kill it? Some people use intellect and reason to enter into a dietary system. Others are in tune enough with their own emotions and feelings to know when a dietary system is or is not working. Then there are those Vegans who ignore all reason and compassion in their quest for the 'perfect' diet. I think that this last group was what Larry Niven had in mind when he penned the quote above.
	__________________ I am being scorned as a fool by people who claim that I am oppressing them merely because they can not force me to believe as they do.

21st May 2007, 01:21 PM	#28
Yuri Nalyssus Muse Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 705	Originally Posted by joobz I'm not. I'm asking about a culture that has a long history of veganism. How do they handle situations where the mother can't breast feed. There are instances (see above comments) where a mother is physically unable to breast feed. Name me a society that is vegan (as opposed to vegetarian) based please. In many societies, without the benefit of synthesised baby milk substitute, it would be impossible to rear babies whose mothers were unable to breastfeed unless a wet nurse was available. In the society I live in such milk substitutes are available, the coice is there - either you compromise your dogma or your baby dies. Yuri
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail

21st May 2007, 01:24 PM	#29
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Bronx, NY Posts: 21,689	Originally Posted by strathmeyer It's perfectly legal for religious people to kill their children this way; was is veganism any different? Depends on the state. In california it seems to be legal to deny medical treatment to a child for religious reasons, unless they die in which case religion is not a valid excuse to avoid the manslaughter charges.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

21st May 2007, 01:53 PM	#30
Yuri Nalyssus Muse Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 705	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe Incredible. I've always disliked hippies and spat on vegeterarians, vegans and any other class of nutjob but this time, it's not veganism per se to blame, it's insanity. Those must just be sick people. I abstain from veal because it's flat out morally wrong to eat it and I never particularly liked veal anyway but other than that, I see nothing wrong with eating meat, like nature intended us to. Some people think it's wasteful and morally wrong not to eat veal. Rose veal is an ethical alternative to crate reared and means there would no longer be a need to euthanase male calves as they are born - they can be reared outdoors in a humane manner until slaughter at 6 to 7 months of age. I have no problem with (in fact I have respect for) vegetarians who have considered the ethics of eating meat and come to a rational decision. I dislike evangelical vegetarians who believe that it is a "natural" diet for human kind despite all historical and anatomical evidence to the contrary. The food-faddies I despise most are carnivores who eat meat but come over all squeamish when it's pointed out to them that meat comes from dead animals. Yuri
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail

21st May 2007, 02:18 PM	#31
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 6,709	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe I abstain from veal because it's flat out morally wrong to eat it and I never particularly liked veal anyway but other than that, I see nothing wrong with eating meat, like nature intended us to. you do know the "like nature intended us to" argument can be applied for a justification of sex with anyone once they reach puberty? That is to say, it's not a particularly paletable reason - and is not IMO a valid reason in itself as to why one should eat meat.
	__________________ Discussion on psychosomatic element of many chronic pain conditions. Mental health provision in the developed world - the invisible problem. A charity that needs more support.

21st May 2007, 02:22 PM	#32
cloudshipsrule Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,171	Quote: Also, How can they let an infant go 1 week without gaining weight and not be concerned? Ignorance

21st May 2007, 02:28 PM	#33
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Inside the Magical Murder Bag Posts: 13,831	Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus Name me a society that is vegan (as opposed to vegetarian) based please. In many societies, without the benefit of synthesised baby milk substitute, it would be impossible to rear babies whose mothers were unable to breastfeed unless a wet nurse was available. In the society I live in such milk substitutes are available, the coice is there - either you compromise your dogma or your baby dies. Yuri This is what I was wondering. I was under the impression that some Brahmin were pure vegan, and I was wondering how they take care of children.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

21st May 2007, 02:34 PM	#34
ClintonHammond Guest Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Windsor Ontario Canada Posts: 871	Ya... Ignorance. By the bucket-load!

21st May 2007, 03:07 PM	#35
Yuri Nalyssus Muse Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 705	Originally Posted by joobz This is what I was wondering. I was under the impression that some Brahmin were pure vegan, and I was wondering how they take care of children. If you look here you will find many half baked religious based justifications for veganism but the movement is essentially a modern construct, an outgrowth of vegitarianism with no basis in religion or society at large ancient or modern. Look elsewhere on the web site and also this one and you will find much mealy mouthed pseudoscientific blather about the nutritional qualities of such a diet. There is carefully spun talk of calcium levels being barely adequate for adults and vitamin D levels being just fine, again for adults, just so long as you spend every moment you can outdoors and lots of waffle about how vitamin B12 is derived from bacteria while avoiding mentioning how much or how little is present in a vegan diet. My take on the propaganda is that adults can survive on a vegan diet only if heavily supplemented and I am left to assume (given this pro-vegan site avoids mentioning it) that it is impossible to rear a human child on a vegan diet. These people are as hypocritial as anti-vivisectionists who decide it's ok to take drugs when it's them that's ill as opposed to other people. They couldn't possibly survive in anything other than modern, western society where a ready supply of artificial supplements is available. Their "lifestyle" is a fake contrivance. Yuri
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail Last edited by Yuri Nalyssus; 21st May 2007 at 03:10 PM.