Religious people love to cause pain to athiest

[DRBUZZ0]

Ok, so I haven't mentioned this too much, but given that I had talked to a few about it, I'm just wondering why those with religion seem to sometimes have no problem causing pain to those who do not.

For those of you who do not know, my dog Timmy, who was by far the best friend and life companion I have ever had died very unexpectedly in April, succumbing to wounds from being hit by my bother in a car, even as he fought to stay alive and breathe at the veterinarian.

Now obviously this hurts... a lot. The sadness is overwhelming and crippling and the loneliness and guilt for not protecting him is horrible.

But that's not really the point. Grief is to be expected, but I thought that I could count on my friends and family to provide some degree of confort or empathy for me at such a time. I'm not really looking to pick battles with them and I thought I could just let my guard down.

But the problem is I am an athiest. I'm not an athiest because I hate religion for what it is or because I like being an athiest. I never considered it a decision. I simply want to believe what is correct and accurate and all the information I know supports my views from my perspective.

My family are not fundies. They don't hate gay people or try to spread the gospil to everyone they meet. They don't want prayer in schools, but they do go to church every sunday. They're catholic but not militantly traditional and they definately are pro-religion.

Family death had always been kinda hard for me, because every time I had gone to a wake or funeral, my sadness would be met with empty statements like "He's in a better place now and he's looking down on you." or "he's watching us right now and you know he wouldn't want to see you so sad."

These were always so empty to me. If only some could say "Everyone has to go and he lived a good long life." or some secular sort of comfort. But never.

But I never make it an issue. I even go to the ceremonies and kneel and pretend to pray. Okay, you can call that a compromise of my principals, but to me it's better to lie than to cause conflict or added pain for my grandmother or others. As far as religion: death is one time when I'll cut them near infinite slack.


But this death has been so hard because my family has not only not comforted me but actively tried to cause pain. I've gone to them, with no energy for a fight and talked about how much I miss Timmy. Even if they said something like "Well, really, all the ways I know of dealing with it are religion based so I don't know I can be help to you." Well, that would be okay.

But a lot of what I have gotten has been semi-compassionate but with some very strong backhandedness thrown into it.

Some of these statements have included:

"It must be very hard for you, believing that he's gone and just rotting in the ground like that. I mean, I don't even know why you'd want to think that. Maybe you'd feel better if you went to church."

"If you want to insist that he died randomly and for no reason and that's all there is to it, then you can do that. I mean, if you wanted any comfort you could just admit that sometimes it's someone's time. Maybe you're mad at god for taking him, but that's not a good way to be."

"So then to you he's just gone and no more? That's something I don't think many people could deal with. I think you'd be much happier if you would think about whether things might happen for a reason."


But that's basically it... talk that invokes everything from never seeing him again to his life being unjustly short to images of his little body and his fluffy little head that I used to pet lifelessly turning to dirt. The most deeply upsetting things one can think of.

From my parents, sister, aunts and others.

So I should laugh at their ignorance? Or just let it roll off? Since then it's been an issue of just not feeling or having the energy to fight them.

I'm not angry but saddended and find myself diven by my so-called loving family members into the solitude of my room without being able to work all day. They cause one to feel so lonely because of their beliefs and to realize that the dog was actually the only one who really cared and did not have an agenda or anything.

I mean, they miss him too, because he was a great little guy. And to some degree they don't want me to be miserable.

It seems more like they think they think that they need to tough-love me into going to church or picking up religion. Or that they are somehow doing good. They seem to have this assumption that I know for a fact god exists but I am denying it for some rebellious reason or I have a grudge.

Rather it's just shown me how little they actually care about people and not ideas. I've considered just packing up and headed to the other end of the country without ever talking to them again.


But before this turns into my own personal sob story:

If atheists (and I know at least a few who agree) are willing to compromise some things and cut some slack to religious people on issues of death and grief, just out of compassion, why cannot the religious try to do the same?

If I hold no contempt for believers in general, other than to think that they are missinformed and a bit in denial, why would such harsh will come from them?

Do they even realize that this sort of thing could easily drive someone to the depths of depression? Or suicide? (No i"m not saying it would for me)... But it's just such an inhuman way of dealing with people!

Do they simply feel nothing? No regret for the suffering they cause others?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

fwiw, I think your experience highlights how much of a crutch religion is for some people. Having to accept that when you're dead, you're dead; and yet still face the grief of loss is no easy process. I wish there were some words I could give you to express to them that being atheist, doesn't mean being without empathy, sympathy, or feelings.

[This Guy]

What Arkan said.

Sorry for your lose. We can become very attached to our pets, and it does make it hard to see them go.

As for the family comments, to further what Arkan said, I think it shows how much easier it is to be religious. You don't have to face the facts that a loved one is gone. You can pretend that they are "looking down" or "in a better place", or any of the other often used sayings. That's a lot easier than admitting they are gone.

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

Some of these statements have included:

"It must be very hard for you, believing that he's gone and just rotting in the ground like that. I mean, I don't even know why you'd want to think that.

I was unaware pets went to Heaven in Christianity. I thought while Christians were living it up in Heaven, their pets were "just gone and rotting in the ground like that", too.

[jimlintott]

You are not grieving because your dog is dead, you are grieving because he is no longer alive. What you miss is what he gave you when he was alive and your friend. Atheists like myself focus on the living and life. The religious seem preoccupied with what happens when you die. It would make no difference to you if your dog is now in doggy heaven or rotting in the ground. He isn't there to lick your face anymore.

What those people said to you is rude in my opinion. It says to me that they don't have enough concern for the living.

I'm sorry about your dog.

[Elizabeth I]

I hate it when people don't listen to your feelings - just jump right in to try to fix you.

My sympathies on the loss of your four-footed friend.

[skeptifem]

Originally Posted by Beerina

I was unaware pets went to Heaven in Christianity. I thought while Christians were living it up in Heaven, their pets were "just gone and rotting in the ground like that", too.

yeah animals dont have souls according to christianity. they are just trying to convert him. maybe not understand how big of a deal it is.

[kerikiwi]

You are not being entirely fair in saying that they are actively trying to cause you pain. Their responses are not aimed to hurt you, nor are they the cause of your depression, which is undoubtedly real, and which you need to deal with in a positive way.

[shemp]

Buzz, the best response to such cretins is a flamethrower to ignore them, and if they persist, then behead them with a sword walk away.

[Miss Anthrope]

Originally Posted by jimlintott

You are not grieving because your dog is dead, you are grieving because he is no longer alive. What you miss is what he gave you when he was alive and your friend. Atheists like myself focus on the living and life. The religious seem preoccupied with what happens when you die. It would make no difference to you if your dog is now in doggy heaven or rotting in the ground. He isn't there to lick your face anymore.

What those people said to you is rude in my opinion. It says to me that they don't have enough concern for the living.

I'm sorry about your dog.

My thoughts exactly.

I'm so sorry!

[DRBUZZ0]

Originally Posted by nails3jesus0

yeah animals dont have souls according to christianity. they are just trying to convert him. maybe not understand how big of a deal it is.

Actually, one of my Christian friends countered that. I didnt even realize she was the type who would impose this on others but she said that if you love a pet then it goes to heaven because when you go to heaven you are surrounded by those you love and can have everything you'd want.

So presumably, if you got there and the dog wasn't there that would be not good. Thus, only animals noone cares about don't go to heaven.

I posed the question what if you loved a family member or friend who went to hell because they didn't accept jesus christ. And she went on to say, "well there would be like a clone of them." And that it wouldn't be them but apparently some sort of hologram or something which you wouldn't ever be told is not really them.. I guess it would be really convincing.

Then I asked if the same applied to pets and she said "I don't know. I can try to find the website which explains all this stuff"

[Pup]

It would be too cynical to say that Christians are realizing they can take advantage of your temporary vulnerability to push the superiority of their message. No. They'd never do that.

For what it's worth, I always found stories of heaven, the rainbow bridge, etc., to stand in the way of the normal grieving process. The end goal is acceptance: he was a wonderful companion when he was alive; death is inevitable; tragedies happen and can't always be prevented no matter how much we wish they could.

Yet stories about how he's not really dead, he's playing beyond the rainbow bridge, you'll see him again some day, etc., bother me. They imply that actually accepting the reality of death is so horrible, so overwhelming, so impossible to comprehend, that it must be avoided at all cost, as if making up any kind of denial and forcing yourself to believe it is the only alternative.

And yet... accepting death isn't as scary as they make it out to be. It's not easy, of course not. It takes time. But it happens, and then the good memories begin to outweigh the sad feelings.

[Miss Anthrope]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

Actually, one of my Christian friends countered that. I didnt even realize she was the type who would impose this on others but she said that if you love a pet then it goes to heaven because when you go to heaven you are surrounded by those you love and can have everything you'd want.

So presumably, if you got there and the dog wasn't there that would be not good. Thus, only animals noone cares about don't go to heaven.

I posed the question what if you loved a family member or friend who went to hell because they didn't accept jesus christ. And she went on to say, "well there would be like a clone of them." And that it wouldn't be them but apparently some sort of hologram or something which you wouldn't ever be told is not really them.. I guess it would be really convincing.

Then I asked if the same applied to pets and she said "I don't know. I can try to find the website which explains all this stuff"

Ouch. It's like a theological Gong Show.

[Kopji]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

Actually, one of my Christian friends countered that. I didnt even realize she was the type who would impose this on others but she said that if you love a pet then it goes to heaven because when you go to heaven you are surrounded by those you love and can have everything you'd want.

So presumably, if you got there and the dog wasn't there that would be not good. Thus, only animals noone cares about don't go to heaven.

I posed the question what if you loved a family member or friend who went to hell because they didn't accept jesus christ. And she went on to say, "well there would be like a clone of them." And that it wouldn't be them but apparently some sort of hologram or something which you wouldn't ever be told is not really them.. I guess it would be really convincing.

Then I asked if the same applied to pets and she said "I don't know. I can try to find the website which explains all this stuff"

Stunningly narcissistic.

So let me get this straight... if an atheist dies our 'real' evil nature is punished forever, while a fictional 'good' (but false) version of us exists in heaven to entertain(?) our friends who were good enough to go there instead of us. We exist in heaven only as a version that they wanted us to be.

Or maybe we act just the same in heaven, but an exact duplicate is being punished in hell.

The people in heaven think that everyone goes to heaven, but the reality is that most are really in hell suffering forever.

If there really was a God he would smite such people as an affront to his honor, or maybe even for claiming to be made in his image.

[DRBUZZ0]

Originally Posted by Pup

It would be too cynical to say that Christians are realizing they can take advantage of your temporary vulnerability to push the superiority of their message. No. They'd never do that.

For what it's worth, I always found stories of heaven, the rainbow bridge, etc., to stand in the way of the normal grieving process. The end goal is acceptance: he was a wonderful companion when he was alive; death is inevitable; tragedies happen and can't always be prevented no matter how much we wish they could.

Yet stories about how he's not really dead, he's playing beyond the rainbow bridge, you'll see him again some day, etc., bother me. They imply that actually accepting the reality of death is so horrible, so overwhelming, so impossible to comprehend, that it must be avoided at all cost, as if making up any kind of denial and forcing yourself to believe it is the only alternative.

And yet... accepting death isn't as scary as they make it out to be. It's not easy, of course not. It takes time. But it happens, and then the good memories begin to outweigh the sad feelings.

It's not that I cannot deal with the death of my friend Tim. I have to accept it and everything and the stuff they say to me does not really change anything but.

1. Despite not changing anything, it still makes it hurt when I try not to think about it in the worst light and I have people who are literally trying to force the most painful and disturbing images and concepts into my head.

I don't want to concentrate on never seeing him again or that his life was so short or that there was no good readon for him to die and that it's unfiar. I know it's true, but I don't want that subject forced in my face all the time.

2. It has shown me that those around me have no actual value in how I feel and it doesn't really matter to them whether they are compassionate or try to hurt. Just that they would even try that at all is heart breaking.

If they actually said stuff like "He had a good life, and I really don't know what more I can say other than there are others in the world and life will get better."

Even that sort of non-substentative attempt to understand that this has nothing to do with me rebelling and trying to refuse to accept a god which is self-evident. Well... I mean that would be SOMETHING. Then it would actually seem like they had some sense of "This guy hurts and I don't want to make that worse. I actually wish he would do less."


I think having my family do this has turned this into another horrible issue entirely which I could easily see how it would drive someone who might already be weak to something like suicide. Is it not caring about me? Or just having no sense of decency at all?

[skeptifem]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

Actually, one of my Christian friends countered that. I didnt even realize she was the type who would impose this on others but she said that if you love a pet then it goes to heaven because when you go to heaven you are surrounded by those you love and can have everything you'd want.

see, that doesnt make sense to me either. you would get sick of the things you love in an eternity. the concept of heaven to me was always being content with out anything. a permazen

Quote:

So presumably, if you got there and the dog wasn't there that would be not good. Thus, only animals noone cares about don't go to heaven.

I posed the question what if you loved a family member or friend who went to hell because they didn't accept jesus christ. And she went on to say, "well there would be like a clone of them." And that it wouldn't be them but apparently some sort of hologram or something which you wouldn't ever be told is not really them.. I guess it would be really convincing.

Then I asked if the same applied to pets and she said "I don't know. I can try to find the website which explains all this stuff"

your friend is playing a game of religion mad lib "what about _____(noun)?" "uhhhhh how about CLONES. yeah clones."


i just thought of something about your OP though.

I think they think they are fixing the problem.

not 'oh buzz is depressed over the death of his dog', more like "buzz is depressed because he doesnt believe in jesus and if he did he wouldnt be so depressed over the death of his dog".

the intentions are good, but it is some very cruel **** to say to someone. its very hard to forgive people who are mean in such a way, but I know I have hurt peoples feelings becase of a complete misunderstanding and felt like hell when I realized what I had done.Its like when someone says 'when is the baby due?" to someone and its revealed the person wasnt pregnant. oh gosh thats awkward. In this case they probably wont realize what they are doing wrong, but I bet they would feel bad if they could. I try to imagine being them and how they decided to say such things, and that helps me not be so angry when people say rude things out of a spiritual concern for me. Just try to imagine actually seriously believing that someone you care about is going to get tortured for all eternity. its a disturbing thing to imagine, but it explains the behavior.

[Kopji]

And sorry about your dog; not only is the loss of a companion, it is that in the death of others we face our own eventual death.

If it will help, consider that for a short while some bits of the universe came together in a way that gave you a special appreciation and perspective of the beauty of it.

I had to endure stories about how my dog was chasing squirrels in a heavenly pasture after he died. Some of the difficulty in facing the death of a loved one lies in being surrounded by nonsense.

[Chimera]

I'm sorry to hear about your beloved pet. My kitty died about 2 months ago, and she was my baby. I, too, had Christian/Catholic/religious people tell me that my cat was now watching over me.

Her death has been very difficult for me to deal with as well. I've never lost anything really close to me, and, my beliefs being what they are, I know that I will never see her again. I don't spend much time dwelling on this part, but I've been thinking about death more and having some fear about losing loved ones in the future. I've woken up crying and reaching for my husband a few times in the past 2 months.

I'm sorry that I don't have any advice for you, except that time does make it easier. For me, the memories of my pet have become more happy and wistful than sad.

[Wheezebucket]

My dog Gracie is moving on in years and will likely be ending her run on this Earth fairly soon. I feel for you brotha, just the thought of losing her nearly brings me to tears. Your family is way off the mark, and I hope they haven't tarnished your memories of Timmy in any way.

[Suggestologist]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

For those of you who do not know, my dog Timmy, who was by far the best friend and life companion I have ever had died very unexpectedly in April, succumbing to wounds from being hit by my bother in a car, even as he fought to stay alive and breathe at the veterinarian.

Now obviously this hurts... a lot. The sadness is overwhelming and crippling and the loneliness and guilt for not protecting him is horrible.

I would expect that your brother feels some guilt as well.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

But that's not really the point. Grief is to be expected, but I thought that I could count on my friends and family to provide some degree of confort or empathy for me at such a time. I'm not really looking to pick battles with them and I thought I could just let my guard down.

Don't expect people to think from your point (and angle and scope) of view. They have their own...

Their Pretty Pleasing Picture

Religion gives them easy justifications for things like death. It's gives them a pretty picture to think about and they may not understand why you don't just accept a (relatively) pleasing picture rather than a darker picture of what happened to Timmy. They don't want to see you suffer and to them it seems obvious that if you accepted the pleasing picture you would be in less emotional distress (than seeing the darker picture you seem to have), so they are trying to push you into the pretty picture of Timmy chasing squirrels in a perfect playground where he's loved and blah blah blah.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

... I even go to the ceremonies and kneel and pretend to pray. Okay, you can call that a compromise of my principals, but to me it's better to lie than to cause conflict or added pain for my grandmother or others. As far as religion: death is one time when I'll cut them near infinite slack.

Financial independence is important. You won't feel the need to play to their every religious nonsense when you're independent of them.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

But this death has been so hard because my family has not only not comforted me but actively tried to cause pain. I've gone to them, with no energy for a fight and talked about how much I miss Timmy. Even if they said something like "Well, really, all the ways I know of dealing with it are religion based so I don't know I can be help to you." Well, that would be okay.

That makes no sense for them to say. It really doesn't. Don't expect the impossible. They're just people, they can't read your mind. They're trying to be compassionate by trying to get you to see things their way, which seems like it would be less emotionally anguished than your current view. So they are trying to be compassionate.

Then again, they may just be tired of your whining. I know there have been times when I was tired and would have been happy in the moment for someone to just believe some nonsense if they would just stop being so annoying.... aaarrrggggggggghhhhh....

You know what I mean, right? People only have so much patience and resilience to lend to others, people have their own problems too. They may not have much of an emotional reserve to give to someone else, at any particular span of time.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

But a lot of what I have gotten has been semi-compassionate but with some very strong backhandedness thrown into it.

Some of these statements have included:

"It must be very hard for you, believing that he's gone and just rotting in the ground like that. I mean, I don't even know why you'd want to think that. Maybe you'd feel better if you went to church."

"Maybe you'd feel better if.." sounds like they want you to feel better.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

"If you want to insist that he died randomly and for no reason and that's all there is to it, then you can do that. I mean, if you wanted any comfort you could just admit that sometimes it's someone's time. Maybe you're mad at god for taking him, but that's not a good way to be."

Sounds like they are referencing their own experience here, "being mad at god" and are telling you what they were told at the time. And from their perspective it probably makes sense.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

"So then to you he's just gone and no more? That's something I don't think many people could deal with. I think you'd be much happier if you would think about whether things might happen for a reason."

'I think you'd be much happier if..." Sounds like they actually think so. And they would like you to be happier.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

But that's basically it... talk that invokes everything from never seeing him again to his life being unjustly short to images of his little body and his fluffy little head that I used to pet lifelessly turning to dirt. The most deeply upsetting things one can think of.

Think about the good times. Are you happy he was your pet? Will you get another one? That's probably what I would suggest. Get another pet. Will you be happy that your new pet is your pet?

Fix whatever mistake caused Timmy to get run over. Of course.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

From my parents, sister, aunts and others.

So I should laugh at their ignorance? Or just let it roll off? Since then it's been an issue of just not feeling or having the energy to fight them.

Understand it as best you can. But it's apparent to me that you don't have the emotional resilience at this time, to give them some slack for trying to cheer you up through the only ways they think would work. They don't know any other ways.

[RandFan]

Sorry for your loss DRBUZZ0. I've been confronted lately about my beliefs. I simply state that I would take an ugly truth over a beautiful lie any day. That's a personal preference. I can't pretend the truth is something that it isn't.

[DRBUZZ0]

Originally Posted by Suggestologist

Financial independence is important. You won't feel the need to play to their every religious nonsense when you're independent of them.

No that's not the issue. What I mean is that a funeral or wake, I'm willing to compromise my athiest principals to prevent conflict.

For example when my grandfather died, I knelt down at the coffin like everyone else did. I know it was a sham and I normally would not do such a thing and pretned I am something I am not

But I did not want to cause any conflict and I knew if I didn't follow the religious motions, it would have at the very least, been upsetting for my grandmother. So I just decided to cut some slack at that point and bow to my family's wishes for me to go to church.

Quote:

That makes no sense for them to say. It really doesn't. Don't expect the impossible. They're just people, they can't read your mind. They're trying to be compassionate by trying to get you to see things their way, which seems like it would be less emotionally anguished than your current view. So they are trying to be compassionate.

I only wish that they could admit that they believe different than I do and that they may not have anything to help me, if thats the case. A neutral statement would be better than a hurtful one.

Quote:

Then again, they may just be tired of your whining. I know there have been times when I was tired and would have been happy in the moment for someone to just believe some nonsense if they would just stop being so annoying.... aaarrrggggggggghhhhh....

No it's not that. First of all the religious backhandedness was imediate, even as my mom, who loved the dog felt bad herself, she added a few anti-athiest statements.

And it's not like it takes much. I'm not looking for them to listen to sobbing or anything. Any time I say something like "Yes, I saw Mr. Smith yesterday and he asked me why I wasn't walking with Tim. I felt really bad because he didn't know and I had to break the news to him."

A statement like that would be all it takes for the "Well, if you'd just accept god..."

Quote:

Think about the good times. Are you happy he was your pet? Will you get another one? That's probably what I would suggest. Get another pet. Will you be happy that your new pet is your pet?

I will get another pet at some point, because I love dogs so much and would want to give another dog a home. The thing is that I think the best way to get over this is to think of the good times and not dwell on how unfair it was for him or that I will never see him again.

Of course... the Christians seem to make it a point to never stop rubbing the most upsetting aspects in my face REPEATEDLY


Honestly, I'm just not sure if I'm even as upset over loosing Tim anymore as I am over the faith I have lost in friends and close family members. I now realize I am alone because the loss of my buddy was compounded by the cruelty of my relatives

[Suggestologist]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

I only wish that they could admit that they believe different than I do and that they may not have anything to help me, if thats the case. A neutral statement would be better than a hurtful one.

It just doesn't make sense for them to think that way. How would a neutral statement help you? They don't have an experiential reference for something like that.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

No it's not that. First of all the religious backhandedness was imediate, even as my mom, who loved the dog felt bad herself, she added a few anti-athiest statements.

Well, she's coping with it in her way. And she's trying to give you her own coping strategy. It makes sense for her to do that.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

And it's not like it takes much. I'm not looking for them to listen to sobbing or anything. Any time I say something like "Yes, I saw Mr. Smith yesterday and he asked me why I wasn't walking with Tim. I felt really bad because he didn't know and I had to break the news to him."

A statement like that would be all it takes for the "Well, if you'd just accept god..."

Again, I think you're triggering their own sadness. And again, I think they're trying to give you their own coping strategy, which has been triggered at that moment. Giving a neutral message when their own coping strategy has been aroused is not an easy thing for them to do. It's basically impossible (unless they understand the process, and even then it would be difficult.)

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

Honestly, I'm just not sure if I'm even as upset over loosing Tim anymore as I am over the faith I have lost in friends and close family members. I now realize I am alone because the loss of my buddy was compounded by the cruelty of my relatives

Like I've been saying; don't expect the impossible. They're only people.

[Yiab]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

I even go to the ceremonies and kneel and pretend to pray. Okay, you can call that a compromise of my principals, but to me it's better to lie than to cause conflict or added pain for my grandmother or others.

I wouldn't call that a compromise of your principals unless you actually are praying. The way I see it is that you realize that a funeral is for the living to grieve and so you play your part in allowing the rest of them to do so. You kneel over the casket not because you're going to pray but because that is part of the ceremony, and ceremony is something we humans have been using for a long time to help us deal with death. Sometimes (maybe even often) it is simply the ritual and the structure that helps people cope with death; it reminds us that the world as we know it is not over. Participating in that ritual as your local culture (i.e. family) expects you to need not be a religious act at all, merely a social one.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

So I should laugh at their ignorance? Or just let it roll off? Since then it's been an issue of just not feeling or having the energy to fight them.

I have two suggestions on how to go about dealing with this. First, I'd suggest finding some atheist friends who are capable of comforting you around death. Everybody needs a support network and it sounds like your family can't act as one for you in this particular instance.

Second, it might be helpful to tell your family most of what you've written here. Explaining to them that you're looking for comfort and support and that most of what they're saying is hurtful to you might allow them to realize that they're not helping and to begin trying to do so.
Now, I don't know your family so I can't predict how they will react to this kind of information. My honest guess is that they'll probably be completely willing to accomodate you with secular comfort and will feel somewhat uncomfortable around doing so, but in the same way that you might feel uncomfortable kneeling over your grandfather's coffin at the funeral - uncomfortable because you're holding back something which helps you but which you know would cause others pain. Eventually, they'll get used to using secular comforts with you and it will become one time when their religious beliefs could interject but don't.
So think about talking to your family (maybe one person at a time) about your feelings and your needs, it's a course that many people wouldn't even think of in your situation, but it might help.

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

If atheists (and I know at least a few who agree) are willing to compromise some things and cut some slack to religious people on issues of death and grief, just out of compassion, why cannot the religious try to do the same?

Many of them don't see atheists compromising, so it wouldn't even occur to them that compromise may be necessary. People tend to filter out things which don't agree with their paradigm; your mother sees you kneeling over your grandfather's coffin as though in prayer and she thinks that you are praying. She may forget for a moment that you are an atheist or she may see this as evidence that you do believe but are "angry at god" or somesuch.
There's also an aspect of the in-group mentality which comes into play here: a group of people is more likely to see only the good things about themselves and only the bad things about those who they see as "opposition" (at least in individualist cultures like ours). It often doesn't even involve conscious bias, it's simply the way people function socially.

Originally Posted by Suggestologist

Don't expect the impossible. They're just people, they can't read your mind. They're trying to be compassionate by trying to get you to see things their way, which seems like it would be less emotionally anguished than your current view. So they are trying to be compassionate.

I agree. This is also why I suggested talking to your family about this situation as they probably will be willing to compromise once they see that it is needed.

[Elizabeth I]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

...I posed the question what if you loved a family member or friend who went to hell because they didn't accept jesus christ. And she went on to say, "well there would be like a clone of them." And that it wouldn't be them but apparently some sort of hologram or something which you wouldn't ever be told is not really them...I guess it would be really convincing...

So Heaven would essentially be lying to you? "This looks like your best friend and acts like your best friend and sounds like your best friend so you can have eternal happiness, but really your best friend is burning in infinite unending torment because he/she was an unrepentant sinner..."

[DOC]

Originally Posted by nails3jesus0

yeah animals dont have souls according to christianity

Do you have any source for this statement.

[Tanstaafl]

I don't recall anything in the bible saying they do.

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZO

From my parents, sister, aunts and others.

So I should laugh at their ignorance?

You can, if you want, but I wouldn't be too rough on your family -- Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Issac Newton, and Carl Jung had similar ignorance.

[DOC]

According to this website you just might see Timmy again.

http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_...mals/pets.html

[Tony]

Originally Posted by DOC

You can, if you want, but I wouldn't be too rough on your family -- Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Issac Newton, and Carl Jung had similar ignorance.

Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Issac Newton, and Carl Jung taunted people with their beliefs over the deaths of the person's loved ones? Evidence?

[DRBUZZ0]

Originally Posted by DOC

According to this website you just might see Timmy again.

http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_...mals/pets.html

Okay, I will grant that there are ways you could look at Christian dogma (no pun intended) that would not preclude me from seeing my dog in the afterlife.

Of course, that assumes that there is an afterlife and that Christian dogma is based on anything other than a combination of mythology, attempts to explain things beyond understanding of the time, ethical philosophy, tales of various teachers or spiritual leaders (which were probably consolidated into one) and stuff that was just conveniently invented.

This is the issue with Christians: They assume everyone knows that there is a god and that they are correct and that atheists "Deny the existence of God." or that they "Refuse to admit God's existence."

To say that an atheist denies god makes it sound like they think there is one. I do not deny the existence of god any more than I deny the existence of the Loch Ness Monster. The fact that I do not consider there to be a Loch Ness Monster is not because I do not like the idea of a Loch Ness Monster, or I think it would somehow admit to being weaker than Nessie.

I do not accept the Loch Ness Monster because the belief is based only on a few very suspect and vague eyewitness accounts and photographic evidence which is either historically known to be fake or can be relatively easily explained as a hoax or an error.

Given how much research has been put into it, I'm fine accepting Nessie is entirely fictional, despite the fact that it's probably possible to come up with a biological senerio in which a large animal could live under a cold freshwater lake. Just the same, I find the non-existance of God to be a reasonable assumption and the non-existance of the God as described in the Bible to be almost gaurenteed.

This is exactly the way Christians seem to think. But seriously... As far as I am concerned it is ficticious! I AM NOT SAYING IT BECAUSE I HAVE A GRUDGE OR ARE REBELLING!

(sorry for the yelling)

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by nails3jesus0

yeah animals dont have souls according to christianity. they are just trying to convert him. maybe not understand how big of a deal it is.

Alternatively, if they truly believe their pets will go to Heaven because they (the humans) are good Christians, one could ask them right back why it's proper to woship a God who throws some pets into Hell because their owner refused to worship Jesus.

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

Actually, one of my Christian friends countered that. I didnt even realize she was the type who would impose this on others but she said that if you love a pet then it goes to heaven because when you go to heaven you are surrounded by those you love and can have everything you'd want.

So presumably, if you got there and the dog wasn't there that would be not good. Thus, only animals noone cares about don't go to heaven.

Christ. I hate it when reality accurately reflects my cynical and sarcastic humor viewpoints.

Quote:

I posed the question what if you loved a family member or friend who went to hell because they didn't accept jesus christ. And she went on to say, "well there would be like a clone of them." And that it wouldn't be them but apparently some sort of hologram or something which you wouldn't ever be told is not really them.. I guess it would be really convincing.

So God is a liar? A deceiver?

And the Christian now knows that there might be a clone of their loved one. Since God will walk amongst them and be their god, the Christian should remember to ask God if their mother in Heaven is really their mom or just a clone. Would God lie or tell the truth? Once word got out, everyone would ask God about everyone important in their (after)lives.

No, I think that theory is flawed.

Quote:

Then I asked if the same applied to pets and she said "I don't know. I can try to find the website which explains all this stuff"

http://forums.randi.org

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by jimlintott

You are not grieving because your dog is dead, you are grieving because he is no longer alive. What you miss is what he gave you when he was alive and your friend. Atheists like myself focus on the living and life. The religious seem preoccupied with what happens when you die. It would make no difference to you if your dog is now in doggy heaven or rotting in the ground. He isn't there to lick your face anymore.

What those people said to you is rude in my opinion. It says to me that they don't have enough concern for the living.

I'm sorry about your dog.

They weren't being rude purposefully- but, like most people in socially awkward situations (hospitalizations, deaths, divorce, job loss, etc.), they are uncomfortable. Uncomfortable people tend to grasp at conversational straws. Religion provides conversational straws, but if they can't use those, they are up the creek unpaddled.

[skeptifem]

Originally Posted by DOC

Do you have any source for this statement.

LOL at you acting like you have ever cared about things like sources or evidence. Of all the threads to start a petty argument in... this is probably the most selfish place to do so. I am not going to respond to you in this thread from this point on, period. Start a new thread if you want to discuss this and I will post there.

[skeptifem]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

Okay, I will grant that there are ways you could look at Christian dogma (no pun intended) that would not preclude me from seeing my dog in the afterlife.

<snip>

arguing with DOC is an exercise in futility. Check out the thomas jefferson thread for evidence. He is just going to anger you more.

[Travis]

Oh man does this ring true. A little over two years ago my brother was shot and killed in Vallejo, CA. It was a suicide by a cop.

Right while I was in the middle of coming to terms with the fact that I would never see my brother again I started getting all sorts of "advice" from religious friends and family. Stuff like:

"I know you felt you needed to act like you were an atheist to rebel, but now would be a good time to come back to the God you know in your heart still loves you."

"You don't believe in hell so you must be reassured that he can't be in torment. I, on the other hand, must try to come to grips that he probably is. So, for you, this should be easier than it will be for me." This statement is in regards to my brother also being an atheist.

"Satan lured your brother so far away from the light and love of God that this was inevitable. This may be your future. But I believe you still accept Jesus even if you if feel you need to tell everyone you don't."

And so on. I really feel for you losing a companion like that. I had to put both my dog of 10 years and cat of 16 years down last year.

[Wolfman]

DRBUZZO,

Man, can I relate.

In the past week, both my grandmother and my sheltie have died; my grandmother of old age, my sheltie of an infection that went to his brain.

I come from a very religious, fundamentalist family (my father is a priest, my mother a receptionist for a missionary training organization); I myself grew up with strong Christian beliefs, at one point planning to become a missionary.

But, today, I am an atheist...the only one in my family.

Well, never have I had as many difficulties with this as have occurred since my grandmother's death. Everyone in the family goes on and on and on about how "now she's in a better place", "she's gone to be with God", "We'll see her again in paradise", etc.

I respect their beliefs, and do not seek in any way to disagree or argue with them. But my simple silence on the matter is more than enough. Accusations such as, "How can you believe your grandmother is nowhere now?" "Your grandmother was a wonderful woman, how can you not believe she's being rewarded in paradise?"

Etc., etc., ad nauseum. I appreciate the pain they feel, and I've remained silent in the face of their accusations, but it hurts not only to be treated as a criminal, and to have to defend myself for things that I haven't even said; but that at a time when I also am feeling tremendous loss for both my grandmother and my dog, I am unable to get any support from the rest of the family unless I first state that "Grandma's gone to Heaven". (On a side note, my family believes only humans have souls, so my dog's afterlife is not an issue)

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Travis

Oh man does this ring true. A little over two years ago my brother was shot and killed in Vallejo, CA. It was a suicide by a cop.

What do you mean by that? Do you mean he convinced a cop to kill him?

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

If atheists (and I know at least a few who agree) are willing to compromise some things and cut some slack to religious people on issues of death and grief, just out of compassion, why cannot the religious try to do the same?

Generalize from the specific to the universal much?

Quote:

Do they simply feel nothing? No regret for the suffering they cause others?

Yeah, such a bunch of heartless bastidges, all of "them" are out to ruin your life. "They" are out to get you. Get thee to the CT forum, and quickly, which is where this tripe belongs.

DR