Let's look at the truth

[Senex]

The Amazing Randi's first love was being a magician. We all belong to this website in his name but the prohibitions on the magic part of this site is on the verge of getting it non-supported, I don't know this is a fact, but it's a thread that goes 5 or 6 days between posts.

I do know that there are magicians who post on this thread. I do know I was helped more than a bit for a show I performed. I do know the people who helped me are now discouraged and won't help others. I do know that lightening up the rules may bring them back.

I suspect James Randi would approve.

[tkingdoll]

Are you talking about the non-disclosure rule? That's mandated by Randi himself.

If you mean the other rules in the membership agreement then I hardly think "attracting more magicians" is a good reason to relax them.

I frequent a few magic forums and they are mostly full of infighting and politics. Similar to what you get here, except to a greater degree, so I can't understand your point.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

Are you talking about the non-disclosure rule? That's mandated by Randi himself.

If you mean the other rules in the membership agreement then I hardly think "attracting more magicians" is a good reason to relax them.

I frequent a few magic forums and they are mostly full of infighting and politics. Similar to what you get here, except to a greater degree, so I can't understand your point.

You are right. I'll leave this wonderful sharing of ideas alone. Nothing wrong here. I'm stirring a pot best left alone.

[tkingdoll]

Originally Posted by Senex

You are right. I'll leave this wonderful sharing of ideas alone. Nothing wrong here. I'm stirring a pot best left alone.

What stirring? What pot? What wonderful sharing of ideas?

Are you going to answer my question about which rules you mean? the non-disclosure rule or the general conduct rules?

[DRBUZZ0]

Originally Posted by Senex

The Amazing Randi's first love was being a magician.

I do not going to speak for Mr. Randi but how you know that was his first love? I suppose that depends on how you define love, but one might say it is usually one's mother. So perhaps his mom was his first love. If not, it may have been his father. Or another family member.

I doubt that "being a magacian" was the most important thing to the infantile Randi. Or are you saying his first love of a concept? Can you even love something abstract like the infinitive "to be" applied to "magacian?

I hightly doubt it was romantic love, but in that case it would just seem weird. More likely it was a high school sweetheart or something. I don't know if that's true or not, but it seems a lot more likely that would be the first, because that is how it goes for most people.

But then the question, has been phrased so well in that annoying 90's club song which asks "What is love?" I don't know and I'm very confused now!

[Senex]

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

What stirring? What pot? What wonderful sharing of ideas?

Are you going to answer my question about which rules you mean? the non-disclosure rule or the general conduct rules?

I'm speaking of this thread as non-participatory. This thread is dysfunctional. This thread should change or not be included in the site. I want to post here but the smell of death overwhelms me.

Let's be able to chat about magic tricks or put this thread to rest.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by Senex

I'm speaking of this thread as non-participatory. This thread is dysfunctional. This thread should change or not be included in the site. I want to post here but the smell of death overwhelms me.

Let's be able to chat about magic tricks or put this thread to rest.

Just to be clear, by "thread" do you mean "sub-forum"? i.e. the Conjuror's Corner subforum? Or do you mean just this thread that you have started in that subforum?

[Senex]

What Randi's motivation was wasn't important, what was is that he brought this website to us. I wish you the best Dr.Buzzo.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by Terry

Just to be clear, by "thread" do you mean "sub-forum"? i.e. the Conjuror's Corner subforum? Or do you mean just this thread that you have started in that subforum?

I mean the Conjurer's Corner Subforum...

[tkingdoll]

Originally Posted by Senex

I'm speaking of this thread as non-participatory. This thread is dysfunctional. This thread should change or not be included in the site. I want to post here but the smell of death overwhelms me.

Let's be able to chat about magic tricks or put this thread to rest.

Why did you start the thread then?

Posting and running is classic troll behaviour. You aren't a troll I assume, but it would be nice to get some answers to the questions your OP raised.

[Wolfman]

Senex,

I'm a complete non-magician, but can appreciate your point to a certain degree...certainly, the "Conjurer's Corner" seems to be one of the less active sections within these forums.

On the other hand, while several people have asked you to clarify specifically which "restrictions" you would like relaxed, you have failed to do so; you just went into passive-aggressive mode.

I would think that if you had positive suggestions as to how to encourage more conversation within these forums, without getting rid of the "do not disclose secrets" mandate (which I completely understand), others would be very interested to hear about it.

And I'd also question the assertion that because a particular forum does not have multiple posts every day, it is therefore useless, or should be shut down. There still seem to be a number of people here who use this forum, and who find it useful, without feeling obligated to post in it on a daily basis.

This forum is set up with specific requirements, to meet the interests/needs of a specific group of people. If it does not meet your needs/interests, then you can A) suggest positive ways of improving it, or B) find another site that does meet your needs/interests.

[NeilC]

Senex - WTF are you talking about?

Start again and try to make you point in such a way that we can be sure of what it actually is.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by Splossy

Senex - WTF are you talking about?

Start again and try to make you point in such a way that we can be sure of what it actually is.

My point is that "The Conjuror's Corner" has fallen into disuse. Posts to this category are few. It isn't because there are few conjurers, it is because of the environment.

I do beleieve that the restriction of not exposing tricks makes the difference. It shouldn't be about exposing tricks-- but i should be able to write clearly why my nail writer didn't impress the people at my Beltraine event -- and why my arm didn't show a chosen card as clearly as it might have.

I didn't dig my nail enought into my arm There, I said it. Am I giving up a trick -- Yes -- but am I giving advice to someone who may use this advice in th future -- yes, I wish I had advice from someone who did this trick for a crowd. What works in a living room doesn't necessarily work in a field. Why are we ashamed to share this information.

[tkingdoll]

Originally Posted by Senex

My point is that "The Conjuror's Corner" has fallen into disuse. Posts to this category are few. It isn't because there are few conjurers, it is because of the environment.

I do beleieve that the restriction of not exposing tricks makes the difference. It shouldn't be about exposing tricks-- but i should be able to write clearly why my nail writer didn't impress the people at my Beltraine event -- and why my arm didn't show a chosen card as clearly as it might have.

I didn't dig my nail enought into my arm There, I said it. Am I giving up a trick -- Yes -- but am I giving advice to someone who may use this advice in th future -- yes, I wish I had advice from someone who did this trick for a crowd. What works in a living room doesn't necessarily work in a field. Why are we ashamed to share this information.

Because this is a public forum and many magicians make a living from their art. If methods are discussed in an open forum then it makes life very hard for working magicians when a kid says "you have a wire there" or whatever. I'm sure as a magician Randi doesn't want his forum to be responsible for that. I know I wouldn't, anyway. This is the forum of the JREF, which is not an organisation about magic. It's an educational foundation. If this was the Randi Magic Forum you'd have a point.

Methods are best discussed in private forums, of which there are many. I can link you to some if you're not familar with them.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

Methods are best discussed in private forums, of which there are many. I can link you to some if you're not familar with them.

Yes, I had one gig and I found many forums. If I did three a year I bet I would know three times the forums I know about now.

However, I believe the JREF should be an active site for young magicians. I could have gone to the dark side when I was in college. As I speak I have three rubber nails in ten feat of where I stand. I used to bend things. People believed their keys were at risk just by standing near me when I was in my early twenties.

Sharing that information isn't wrong. Doing what the woos do and explaining to others isn't wrong.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I think you're more likely to find skeptics who are interested in magic here, rather than magicians looking for a forum to discuss magic and it's secrets.

That is unless the JREF wants to open a password protected sub-subforum for discussion of secrets. The best alternative would be private discussion via PM.

Magicians looking to discuss methods, etc. would be better served on the Genii or Magic Cafe' forums.

[Wolfman]

Senex,

Let me give the non-magician's viewpoint here...

...I enjoy reading this forum. I don't post, because I'm not a magician, and don't pretend to understand most of the tricks. But that's just the point...its magic because I don't understand. Now, if I find that people in here are suddenly publicly discussing how their tricks went wrong -- and thereby revealing how the trick is done -- that person is not just "helping other magicians"...they are revealing how every other magician does the trick.I know for a fact that, were I a magician who had spent significant time in perfecting this skill myself, and then some amateur who hadn't gotten it yet made posts in public forums that gave away how the trick was done, I'd likely be more than a little pissed off.

And rightly so.

You say that you are concerned about participation, but I'm willing to bet that nothing would cause SERIOUS magicians to abandon this forum faster than if it suddenly were to turn into a forum that told everyone else how they were doing their tricks.

I go back to my original point -- different forums serve different purposes. There are private forums in which practicing magicians can share secrets, give each other advice, etc., as has been pointed out already. That is the purpose of those forums. This forum is, obviously, not set up for that purpose. And rather than trying to make the whole forum change just because you personally don't like it, would it not be more fruitful to go to a forum that is already established for the purposes you seek?

I've run a discussion forum of my own for several years, one that focuses specifically on debate; it is a forum that tends to have a fair bit of confrontation, and clash of personalities. Before you become a member of my forum, there is a very clear description of the purpose of the forum, and a recommendation that you join only if you share in and agree with that stated purpose. Yet, time after time after time, I get people who register, become members, then start complaining to me that I should change it because "it doesn't meet their needs". They find it too confrontational, they don't like the fact that people are always disagreeing and debating with each other.

And my response is always the same. You knew what the purpose of this forum was when you joined it. If you like it, then feel free to continue to participate. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other forums out there that will meet your needs. But what I am not going to do is play the useless game of trying to make every single person happy. It is pointless, and it is impossible.

There are, obviously, people here who like and appreciate this forum the way it is. The purpose and rules for this forum are clearly stated, and were set in place by the founder of the site himself. So, while I appreciate and sympathize with your personal frustrations, I'd suggest that you are not only barking up the wrong tree, but you are in the wrong forest entirely.

[tkingdoll]

Originally Posted by Senex

Yes, I had one gig and I found many forums. If I did three a year I bet I would know three times the forums I know about now.

However, I believe the JREF should be an active site for young magicians. I could have gone to the dark side when I was in college. As I speak I have three rubber nails in ten feat of where I stand. I used to bend things. People believed their keys were at risk just by standing near me when I was in my early twenties.

Sharing that information isn't wrong. Doing what the woos do and explaining to others isn't wrong.

This reminds me of a discussion a while back in another thread. I was arguing (hypothetically) that you can't expect people to accept your word that a method is mundane when it looks paranormal if you are not prepared to reveal the method. In other words, magicians are enabling woo if they refuse to reveal methods. If I can't figure out how David Copperfield levitates, it must be real, right?

Wasn't a popular opinion, funnily enough, although Randi has met this idea halfway - he reveals key bends etc.

Magic is a funny business.

[JonWhite]

Just to throw my 2 cents in the ring...

The Conjuror's Corner sub-forum seems to be a fairly natural extension of the other forum areas. From Houdini through to Banachek and Derren Brown, magicians have historically had a real role to play in debunking psychic fraudsters. As with Randi himself, who better to catch a trickster than a trickster....

Whenever a magic related issue has a relevance to a scientific or paranormal issue, it becomes an obvious topic for discussion. When magic/mentalism is presented not as mystery and entertainment but actual (i.e.) "psychic" fact it becomes fair game. If it's sadly necessary to expose an effect such as spoon bending to show Geller for the fraud he is or to highlight cold reading as a very real explanation for Sylvia Browne's perceived "hits" then it's ultimately for the best in trying to prevent the non-magic aware public from being blatantly scammed and lied to. Even then there are some who may have a genuine concern as such exposure can doubtless affect their own (non-scamming) shows - just look at the flack Ian Rowland still gets from some quarters for his cold reading exposure.

There's surely no problem at all with a general discussion of magic and effects, but it's gotta be for the best to stay within the current guidelines of non-exposure. That's a rule employed within all open magic forums and why should any discussion here be any different? After all, for non-magicians it's the not-knowing that keeps magic alive and for magicians themselves maintains their art. If there is a question of method of a particular effect that could constitute exposure if openly discussed there's always private messaging, where there'll often be a magician around who can help out a fellow magician.

I think many of us are always up for a chewy, magic related thread offering each other ideas, pointers, or maybe conjecture re. DB's latest stunt. One can discuss the use of effects without having to reveal the inner workings - i.e. offering say "Out Of This World" as a possible choice of effect or explanation, without exposing actual details of the "OOTW" method. At what point conjecture becomes exposure can certainly tread a fine line though, but I guess that's what gives the moderator's purpose!

I'm waffling, but mean to simply say that I think things here are probably about right as they are.


ETA: Meant to add smilies but forgot!

[Senex]

I'm going to push the envelope...

Young gentleman reading this gather round. The best, and I mean the best trick you can ever do is be in a bar and snuff someone's cigarette out right in front of the rascal who smoked it.

Thumb tip. It's in every magic set ever sold. They don't tell you you can put cigarettes out with it. You can do it and be a hero! It's a miracle to your audience. No BS, I've had people offer me over $50 twice to teach them how to do it. I give it to you for free.

But for god's sakes, please practice before you perform it. Even a simple miracle takes a little practice.

[Senex]

Last year I had a girlfriend who liked to go nude beaches. I watched Chris Angel do a coin through can effect on TV. I watched what he did and I knew you could do it it nude. I felt I could do it just from watching what he did -- but I paid the $15 to download the instructions.

That's something we should share. I perform in the nude sometimes. I have ways of disposing things in the sand (not very well, but I can say what I did and how it was received).

That's the kind of info that is invaluable. Where are you going to find someone like me? I've stuffed material in the sand at a beach with a thumb tip. I didn't do it particularly well and I wish to read from others who might have done it better. I can say what I did and why it sucked -- you can say what you did and how it was wonderful.

We can learn from each other.

[tkingdoll]

Originally Posted by Senex

Last year I had a girlfriend who liked to go nude beaches. I watched Chris Angel do a coin through can effect on TV. I watched what he did and I knew you could do it it nude. I felt I could do it just from watching what he did -- but I paid the $15 to download the instructions.

That's something we should share. I perform in the nude sometimes. I have ways of disposing things in the sand (not very well, but I can say what I did and how it was received).

That's the kind of info that is invaluable. Where are you going to find someone like me? I've stuffed material in the sand at a beach with a thumb tip. I didn't do it particularly well and I wish to read from others who might have done it better. I can say what I did and why it sucked -- you can say what you did and how it was wonderful.

We can learn from each other.

You're coming across as a little odd right now.

[DRBUZZ0]

Originally Posted by Senex

Last year I had a girlfriend who liked to go nude beaches. I watched Chris Angel do a coin through can effect on TV. I watched what he did and I knew you could do it it nude. I felt I could do it just from watching what he did -- but I paid the $15 to download the instructions.

That's something we should share. I perform in the nude sometimes. I have ways of disposing things in the sand (not very well, but I can say what I did and how it was received).

That's the kind of info that is invaluable. Where are you going to find someone like me? I've stuffed material in the sand at a beach with a thumb tip. I didn't do it particularly well and I wish to read from others who might have done it better. I can say what I did and why it sucked -- you can say what you did and how it was wonderful.

We can learn from each other.

Dude. I have to tell you - I really truely honestly believe you are not hiding anything in your pants. Theres no need at all to take them off.

Oh wait... are you a dude? If not, disregard all previous statements in this post.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

Oh wait... are you a dude? If not, disregard all previous statements in this post.

I'm a dude and I always disregard what you write. I've picked on you and now you are picking on me but that's not going to help you.

You are young and single. Bantering with me isn't going to help you. Banter with young single women. You might have to change websites -- they are out there.

[Azrael 5]

I have no problem with cold reading being exposed.I don't even think it should come into a magic act,but each to their own.
If a woo claimed to be bending a coin with his mind on TV and people posted how to do it via sleight of hand Id be peeved;but generally that doesn't happen.
Secrets should be protected>You want free secrets:YouTube.

And yes you can do the coin in can in the nude.although depends which version I guess.Not seen Angel do it.I can't abide him.

[Senex]

I just called the young woman in this photo to ask her if I could post it. It's been very long since I spoke with her. She said I could do whatever I wanted with the photo. She also thought I might be ready to injure myself. I assured her that atheists realize they are experiencing everything they ever will won't cut it short.

[DJM]

This place is getting even weirder than the Magic Cafe..

[monoman]

Originally Posted by Senex

I just called the young woman in this photo to ask her if I could post it. It's been very long since I spoke with her. She said I could do whatever I wanted with the photo. She also thought I might be ready to injure myself. I assured her that atheists realize they are experiencing everything they ever will won't cut it short.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Senex/tej3.JPG

You're coming across as a little odd right now

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Originally Posted by Senex

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Senex/tej3.JPG

This is not the type of "exposure" I was expecting on a magic forum.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by monoman

You're coming across as a little odd right now

I was born a little odd. I can mock. What are we mocking...?

[DRBUZZ0]

Originally Posted by Senex

I just called the young woman in this photo to ask her if I could post it. It's been very long since I spoke with her. She said I could do whatever I wanted with the photo. She also thought I might be ready to injure myself. I assured her that atheists realize they are experiencing everything they ever will won't cut it short.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Senex/tej3.JPG

If you have no problem with the human body and the idea of being nude, why are you preventing us from seeing your girlfriend's chacha?

I smell something and when you're on a nude beach and you smell something you best beware. But this is not a nude beach and what I smell is not a crotch infection. No, what I smell is the stench of hypocracy. And that is a smell I simply cannot deal with.

So shall I destroy it with the Lysol and Fabreze of liberty and the tourch shall be passed to the next generation who will continue to on the great Quest.

[Whyatica]

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by Senex

I felt I could do it just from watching what he did -- but I paid the $15 to download the instructions.

That's something we should share.

Sure. We could also convert all our CD music to mp3 and file swap them here- I'm not sure what the difference is. (The fact that it happens all the time doesn't make it right).

Or perhaps we could share the important things in magic- like ethics- not stealing ideas that the creator sells. What gives you the right to sell a trick that someone else came up with, tested and spent money to market? The fact that you bought it so now it's yours?

Originally Posted by Senex

That's the kind of info that is invaluable.

You claim it's invaluable but apparently you don't even think it's worth $15.

Originally Posted by Senex

Where are you going to find someone like me?

Unfortunately it's all too easy to find people like you in magic clubs and all over the internet. You're the people that figure if you bought the trick then it becomes yours to give away. Or if someone else passed it along to you then it's yours to give away to everyone.

Originally Posted by Senex

We can learn from each other.

Sure, if being unethical and dishonest is really something you want to learn.

Having read this whole thread I have the strong feeling that you're much like many of the 12-15 year olds that frequent a lot of magic message boards. You're interested in giving away information that you claim is 'invaluable' in the hopes that others will give you their invaluable information. But your definition of 'invaluable' seems to mean 'anything that I don't want to pay for or that I want to give away free even if it's not mine to give'.

[Bob Klase]

It's true that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Originally Posted by Senex

Young gentleman reading this gather round. The best, and I mean the best trick you can ever do is be in a bar

Perhaps that's the best trick 'you' can ever do in a bar. Personally I can think of quite a few that would be better for me- mostly depending on the circumstances and the people. I even share some of them privately with people I trust. There are many people I would never even share the idea, much less the method. That would include people I would never share them who would steal them from me and pass around the internet for free.

Originally Posted by Senex

Thumb tip. It's in every magic set ever sold. They don't tell you you can put cigarettes out with it. You can do it and be a hero! It's a miracle to your audience. No BS, I've had people offer me over $50 twice to teach them how to do it. I give it to you for free.

Wow. And what did you accomplish by doing that? Do you think there are magicians here who aren't aware of it? Or do you think people that aren't magicians should be told how everything is done? Or does it just make you feel smart to show that you know something everyone else doesn't know?

Originally Posted by Senex

But for god's sakes, please practice before you perform it. Even a simple miracle takes a little practice.

Even a great miracle becomes a simple stupid trick when you tell everybody how you did it.

[Senex]

Thumb tip advice seems to be taboo here. It's too bad. I can share lighting conditions thread works best in. I have experience doing magic at a campfire. I've had my Hindu rope rising trick exposed because the campfire was in the wrong area. Why can't I share my failures and occassional success?

I have news for some people. I can put any magic trick known to man in my PC search area and google it. If I can't find someone giving away the secret I can find someone on Youtube mucking the trick up enough for me to know how it works.

Anyone who wants to know the secret to magic tricks who has access to google can find out whatever they want. Keeping secrets is a thing of the past. It's both a good thing and a bad thing, but it is.

The truth is your audience aren't the googlers. People like to be entertained. No one is monitoring this site to shout out how you did an effect at your next presentation.

We can share war stories or we can let the place die of disuse. Your call.

[Darat]

Senex what "we" can do is abide by the rules of this Forum - one of which is no disclosure of magic tricks, and exactly what this means was clarified earlier this month: Originally Posted by Jeff Wagg The official word.. You may not reveal tricks here. Also, you may not embed video or images that reveal tricks. However, you can post links to revealed tricks. The latter is simply a matter of practicality. We do strongly discourage revealing tricks, though at times there is a reason for it. Specifically we do NOT want this type of exchange: "Hey, I saw The Great Gonzo saw a lady in half! How did he do that?" "Oh, you get a special box that's filled with blood and a woman who can bend a whole lot to get out of the way of the saw.." Something like this would be OK: "Sylvia Browne knew her daughters name!! How could she know that?" "She didn't know it. She used cold reading to get that information out of the Mom." There is a clear difference between the two. There is a link between skepticism and conjuring, but as conjuring is a "secret" art, and one that many people depend on for their livelihood, this board shall not serve as a clearing house for how tricks are done. Let me make it very clear if you now breach this rule you will be banned.

Posted By:Darat

[tkingdoll]

Originally Posted by Senex

Thumb tip advice seems to be taboo here. It's too bad. I can share lighting conditions thread works best in. I have experience doing magic at a campfire. I've had my Hindu rope rising trick exposed because the campfire was in the wrong area. Why can't I share my failures and occassional success?

I have news for some people. I can put any magic trick known to man in my PC search area and google it. If I can't find someone giving away the secret I can find someone on Youtube mucking the trick up enough for me to know how it works.

Anyone who wants to know the secret to magic tricks who has access to google can find out whatever they want. Keeping secrets is a thing of the past. It's both a good thing and a bad thing, but it is.

The truth is your audience aren't the googlers. People like to be entertained. No one is monitoring this site to shout out how you did an effect at your next presentation.

We can share war stories or we can let the place die of disuse. Your call.

They might be able to get the answers elsewhere but that doesn't mean they should get them here.

I'm not sure why you think you have a large audience for your 'war stories'. As far as I can see no-one gives a hoot about the time you couldn't get your rope to stay erect, although posting pictures of naked ex-girlfriends is always an interesting way to illustrate a point.

You're basically discussing magic methods with yourself.

[Senex]

OK, I could say I never really broke any rules, but since I am threatened with banning I will stay off this part of the forum. No more ex nude girlfriend photos for you rascals.

[Senex]

One thing before I go away. I performed bare-ass naked at a nude camp ground. Pretty girls can make make me do about anything. I was on an elevated platform and I did a performance without any clothes on. My audience was also nude.

I could have told you what I did and why it worked/didn't work. But not anymore. I have unique experience.

[DRBUZZ0]

Originally Posted by Senex

One thing before I go away. I performed bare-ass naked at a nude camp ground. Pretty girls can make make me do about anything. I was on an elevated platform and I did a performance without any clothes on. My audience was also nude.

I could have told you what I did and why it worked/didn't work. But not anymore. I have unique experience.

God that's so damn hot