Primates that understand English?

Miss Anthrope · 30th May 2007, 05:26 PM

Just found this article on primates understanding spoken English.

Quote:

You can talk to the apes, and they know what you are saying.

The residents of the Great Ape Trust are part of groundbreaking language research where the apes are being taught to communicate with humans by pressing 350 lexigrams -- symbols that appear on a screen and represent thoughts and objects.

The superstar is 26-year-old Kanzi, whom Bill Fields has been working with for years. To communicate, Fields speaks to Kanzi, who then points to the lexigrams to respond and demonstrate a level of understanding.
"Qualitatively, there is no difference between Kanzi's language and my language," Fields said. "It's a matter of degree."

ImaginalDisc · 30th May 2007, 05:28 PM

The "matter of degree" is the issue. My dog understood enough English to go fetch people in other rooms by name, knew the difference between being ordered to the front door and back door, and knew a bunch of other verbal commands. That didn't make her Chaucer.

Miss Anthrope · 30th May 2007, 05:38 PM

Did you read all three pages of the article?

No one is claiming they are Chaucer. But they can understand and press the corresponding button, and they can also take control of the conversation, as noted in the article when they ask for candy or let them know their head or stomach hurts. They can express fear. It's a cool development. How cool remains to be seen, given it's an article rather than a published study, but quite interesting.

I'm still skeptical/uncertain of what it truly means, but it certainly merits research.

andyandy · 30th May 2007, 06:00 PM

ook

CapelDodger · 30th May 2007, 06:13 PM

If you can't summon up grammar, forget about it. Making associations is a widespread talent. And taking control of a conversation has nothing to do with language. Not amongst primates.

Except when HomSap engages with its fellows, of course, and even then less than is commonly assumed, IMO. In this case you have mixed primates, some of whom know - and care to know - that they could tear your arm off and beat you to death with it, and others who entertain no such notions and assume you don't. Absent any evidence that the arm-ripping thing would increase the flow of treats, stick with the easy stuff. Bish, bosh, banana. And a sense of superiority.

Jeff Corey · 30th May 2007, 06:22 PM

Define grammar. Kanzi assembles lexigrams appropriately to resemble English conversation.

CapelDodger · 30th May 2007, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by andyandy

ook

My fellow primates ...

I'm with you, joined the big club, we are at heart bracchiationising (?ook) primates up against, firstly, cats and secondly animals that don't appreciate beer.

The secrets of which will be freely provided to HomPongo, in recognition of the redhead swingers that have left such an imprint on our shared male primate inheritance.

CapelDodger · 30th May 2007, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

Define grammar. Kanzi assembles lexigrams appropriately to resemble English conversation.

How's their Future Imperative coming on?

"Appropriate" to "resembling" something to people that were looking and hoping for it? And English in particular? I'd have thought that Chinese ideograms would cut out a middleman.

Jeff Corey · 30th May 2007, 06:46 PM

And now for something completely similar http://youtube.com/watch?v=dOFUvLfxPO
Oh, just U Tube the Monkees.

ImaginalDisc · 30th May 2007, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Miss Anthrope

Did you read all three pages of the article?

No one is claiming they are Chaucer. But they can understand and press the corresponding button, and they can also take control of the conversation, as noted in the article when they ask for candy or let them know their head or stomach hurts. They can express fear. It's a cool development. How cool remains to be seen, given it's an article rather than a published study, but quite interesting.

I'm still skeptical/uncertain of what it truly means, but it certainly merits research.

I didn't say that was he claim, but language studies of non-human speakers are a pain because the animal typically signals one of two words, or lexigraphs, or whatever it's been trained to use, and the people involved use a fairly liberal amount of interpretation.

strathmeyer · 30th May 2007, 07:09 PM

I look forward to the Great Ape Trust collaborating with current cognitive psychologists so that the appropriate changes to the literature can be made.

Jeff Corey · 30th May 2007, 07:14 PM

I think not. "Cognitive psychologists" is an oxymoron.

cloudshipsrule · 30th May 2007, 07:16 PM

Quote:

they ask for candy or let them know their head or stomach hurts.

I bet they ask for candy! What animal couldn't be trained to depress the appropriate 'buttons' to summon up candy on demand. Who's to say 'letting the trainer know their head or stomach hurts' isn't another way the grape apes are saying:

"Give me some more candy, fool!"

Complexity · 30th May 2007, 08:18 PM

I do.

Goshawk · 30th May 2007, 08:45 PM

Just wish to mention that we discussed apes using sign language extensively (Not to say exhaustively

) last September.

Miss Anthrope · 30th May 2007, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Goshawk

Just wish to mention that we discussed apes using sign language extensively (Not to say exhaustively

) last September.

These apes are not using sign language

articulett · 30th May 2007, 09:19 PM

Both Kanzi and Pansheba are Bonobos and they do understand speech--even without facial cues or body cues--very well. There was a great documentary on them recently called "Chimps are People Too"--they have a website with clips, I think. It was very impressive--Pansheba made Ramen noodles and followed directions, including flicking a burning piece of plastic off the stove. Kanzi, lights matches and puts meat on the barbecue (in another video). Sue (his trainer) wore a welders mask and leads him through some bizarre and detailed instructions which he follows--without receiving any facial or body clues (.e.g. "give the stuffed dog a shot"; "put the key in the fridge".) The whole documentary is very impressive. And both chimpanzees and bonobos show gestures very similar to humans--(e.g. putting hand out with open palm when begging)

The bonobos bark...almost as if they are trying to talk,--apes lack the vocal apparatus to talk like we do, but there's no reason they can't hear and understand language.

Miss Anthrope · 30th May 2007, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by articulett

Both Kanzi and Pansheba are Bonobos and they do understand speech--even without facial cues or body cues--very well. There was a great documentary on them recently called "Chimps are People Too"--they have a website with clips, I think. It was very impressive--Pansheba made Ramen noodles and followed directions, including flicking a burning piece of plastic off the stove. Kanzi, lights matches and puts meat on the barbecue (in another video). Sue (his trainer) wore a welders mask and leads him through some bizarre and detailed instructions which he follows--without receiving any facial or body clues (.e.g. "give the stuffed dog a shot"; "put the key in the fridge".) The whole documentary is very impressive. And both chimpanzees and bonobos show gestures very similar to humans--(e.g. putting hand out with open palm when begging)

The bonobos bark...almost as if they are trying to talk,--apes lack the vocal apparatus to talk like we do, but there's no reason they can't hear and understand language.

Thanks for the tip. At their site I found a video of the welder mask where Kanzi follows the instructions, pretty cool stuff. This video is under "novel sentences" here.

ETA: One thing made me pause. In that video, when she asks for the Perrier water, it seems that Kanzi reaches for the jam before the instruction to pour into the jam is given. Could be audio drift for internet video, but it could be a sign of rote rather than true comprehension, no?

cloudshipsrule · 30th May 2007, 10:39 PM

[quote]Both Kanzi and Pansheba are Bonobos and they do understand speech--even without facial cues or body cues--very well. QUOTE]

They can do almost anything with CGI these days!

strathmeyer · 30th May 2007, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

I think not. "Cognitive psychologists" is an oxymoron.

Great, I'll start calling universities and research journals and let them know they can fire those vagabonds!

30th May 2007, 05:26 PM	#1
Miss Anthrope All your post are belong to us Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: A Tiny Oasis in the PNW Posts: 3,597	Primates that understand English? Just found this article on primates understanding spoken English. Quote: You can talk to the apes, and they know what you are saying. The residents of the Great Ape Trust are part of groundbreaking language research where the apes are being taught to communicate with humans by pressing 350 lexigrams -- symbols that appear on a screen and represent thoughts and objects. The superstar is 26-year-old Kanzi, whom Bill Fields has been working with for years. To communicate, Fields speaks to Kanzi, who then points to the lexigrams to respond and demonstrate a level of understanding. "Qualitatively, there is no difference between Kanzi's language and my language," Fields said. "It's a matter of degree."
	__________________ We're not elected officials, nor are we paid professionals. You want us to act as such? Fine. Cough up the cash - because as a professional, I don't come cheap."-Jmercer, who happens to rock.[/color]

30th May 2007, 05:28 PM	#2
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	The "matter of degree" is the issue. My dog understood enough English to go fetch people in other rooms by name, knew the difference between being ordered to the front door and back door, and knew a bunch of other verbal commands. That didn't make her Chaucer.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

30th May 2007, 05:38 PM	#3
Miss Anthrope All your post are belong to us Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: A Tiny Oasis in the PNW Posts: 3,597	Did you read all three pages of the article? No one is claiming they are Chaucer. But they can understand and press the corresponding button, and they can also take control of the conversation, as noted in the article when they ask for candy or let them know their head or stomach hurts. They can express fear. It's a cool development. How cool remains to be seen, given it's an article rather than a published study, but quite interesting. I'm still skeptical/uncertain of what it truly means, but it certainly merits research.
	__________________ We're not elected officials, nor are we paid professionals. You want us to act as such? Fine. Cough up the cash - because as a professional, I don't come cheap."-Jmercer, who happens to rock.[/color]

30th May 2007, 06:00 PM	#4
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,192	ook
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

30th May 2007, 06:13 PM	#5
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,740	If you can't summon up grammar, forget about it. Making associations is a widespread talent. And taking control of a conversation has nothing to do with language. Not amongst primates. Except when HomSap engages with its fellows, of course, and even then less than is commonly assumed, IMO. In this case you have mixed primates, some of whom know - and care to know - that they could tear your arm off and beat you to death with it, and others who entertain no such notions and assume you don't. Absent any evidence that the arm-ripping thing would increase the flow of treats, stick with the easy stuff. Bish, bosh, banana. And a sense of superiority.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

30th May 2007, 06:22 PM	#6
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,794	Define grammar. Kanzi assembles lexigrams appropriately to resemble English conversation.

30th May 2007, 06:26 PM	#7
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,740	Originally Posted by andyandy ook My fellow primates ... I'm with you, joined the big club, we are at heart bracchiationising (?ook) primates up against, firstly, cats and secondly animals that don't appreciate beer. The secrets of which will be freely provided to HomPongo, in recognition of the redhead swingers that have left such an imprint on our shared male primate inheritance.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

30th May 2007, 06:43 PM	#8
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,740	Originally Posted by Jeff Corey Define grammar. Kanzi assembles lexigrams appropriately to resemble English conversation. How's their Future Imperative coming on? "Appropriate" to "resembling" something to people that were looking and hoping for it? And English in particular? I'd have thought that Chinese ideograms would cut out a middleman.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

30th May 2007, 06:46 PM	#9
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,794	And now for something completely similar http://youtube.com/watch?v=dOFUvLfxPO Oh, just U Tube the Monkees.
	Last edited by Jeff Corey; 30th May 2007 at 06:56 PM. Reason: Bad link

30th May 2007, 07:05 PM	#10
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Miss Anthrope Did you read all three pages of the article? No one is claiming they are Chaucer. But they can understand and press the corresponding button, and they can also take control of the conversation, as noted in the article when they ask for candy or let them know their head or stomach hurts. They can express fear. It's a cool development. How cool remains to be seen, given it's an article rather than a published study, but quite interesting. I'm still skeptical/uncertain of what it truly means, but it certainly merits research. I didn't say that was he claim, but language studies of non-human speakers are a pain because the animal typically signals one of two words, or lexigraphs, or whatever it's been trained to use, and the people involved use a fairly liberal amount of interpretation.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

30th May 2007, 07:09 PM	#11
strathmeyer seriously unable to be serious Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Posts: 2,382	I look forward to the Great Ape Trust collaborating with current cognitive psychologists so that the appropriate changes to the literature can be made.

30th May 2007, 07:14 PM	#12
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,794	I think not. "Cognitive psychologists" is an oxymoron.

30th May 2007, 07:16 PM	#13
cloudshipsrule Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,171	Quote: they ask for candy or let them know their head or stomach hurts. I bet they ask for candy! What animal couldn't be trained to depress the appropriate 'buttons' to summon up candy on demand. Who's to say 'letting the trainer know their head or stomach hurts' isn't another way the grape apes are saying: "Give me some more candy, fool!"

30th May 2007, 08:18 PM	#14
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	I do.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

30th May 2007, 08:45 PM	#15
Goshawk Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Decatur, Illinois, USA Posts: 1,453	Just wish to mention that we discussed apes using sign language extensively (Not to say exhaustively ) last September.

30th May 2007, 09:02 PM	#16
Miss Anthrope All your post are belong to us Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: A Tiny Oasis in the PNW Posts: 3,597	Originally Posted by Goshawk Just wish to mention that we discussed apes using sign language extensively (Not to say exhaustively ) last September. These apes are not using sign language
	__________________ We're not elected officials, nor are we paid professionals. You want us to act as such? Fine. Cough up the cash - because as a professional, I don't come cheap."-Jmercer, who happens to rock.[/color]

30th May 2007, 09:19 PM	#17
articulett Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Las Vegas, NV (and the ethers of cyberspace) Posts: 15,786	Both Kanzi and Pansheba are Bonobos and they do understand speech--even without facial cues or body cues--very well. There was a great documentary on them recently called "Chimps are People Too"--they have a website with clips, I think. It was very impressive--Pansheba made Ramen noodles and followed directions, including flicking a burning piece of plastic off the stove. Kanzi, lights matches and puts meat on the barbecue (in another video). Sue (his trainer) wore a welders mask and leads him through some bizarre and detailed instructions which he follows--without receiving any facial or body clues (.e.g. "give the stuffed dog a shot"; "put the key in the fridge".) The whole documentary is very impressive. And both chimpanzees and bonobos show gestures very similar to humans--(e.g. putting hand out with open palm when begging) The bonobos bark...almost as if they are trying to talk,--apes lack the vocal apparatus to talk like we do, but there's no reason they can't hear and understand language.
	Last edited by articulett; 30th May 2007 at 09:24 PM.

30th May 2007, 09:33 PM	#18
Miss Anthrope All your post are belong to us Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: A Tiny Oasis in the PNW Posts: 3,597	Originally Posted by articulett Both Kanzi and Pansheba are Bonobos and they do understand speech--even without facial cues or body cues--very well. There was a great documentary on them recently called "Chimps are People Too"--they have a website with clips, I think. It was very impressive--Pansheba made Ramen noodles and followed directions, including flicking a burning piece of plastic off the stove. Kanzi, lights matches and puts meat on the barbecue (in another video). Sue (his trainer) wore a welders mask and leads him through some bizarre and detailed instructions which he follows--without receiving any facial or body clues (.e.g. "give the stuffed dog a shot"; "put the key in the fridge".) The whole documentary is very impressive. And both chimpanzees and bonobos show gestures very similar to humans--(e.g. putting hand out with open palm when begging) The bonobos bark...almost as if they are trying to talk,--apes lack the vocal apparatus to talk like we do, but there's no reason they can't hear and understand language. Thanks for the tip. At their site I found a video of the welder mask where Kanzi follows the instructions, pretty cool stuff. This video is under "novel sentences" here. ETA: One thing made me pause. In that video, when she asks for the Perrier water, it seems that Kanzi reaches for the jam before the instruction to pour into the jam is given. Could be audio drift for internet video, but it could be a sign of rote rather than true comprehension, no?
	__________________ We're not elected officials, nor are we paid professionals. You want us to act as such? Fine. Cough up the cash - because as a professional, I don't come cheap."-Jmercer, who happens to rock.[/color] Last edited by Miss Anthrope; 30th May 2007 at 09:40 PM.

30th May 2007, 10:39 PM	#19
cloudshipsrule Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,171	[quote]Both Kanzi and Pansheba are Bonobos and they do understand speech--even without facial cues or body cues--very well. QUOTE] They can do almost anything with CGI these days!

30th May 2007, 11:05 PM	#20
strathmeyer seriously unable to be serious Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Posts: 2,382	Originally Posted by Jeff Corey I think not. "Cognitive psychologists" is an oxymoron. Great, I'll start calling universities and research journals and let them know they can fire those vagabonds!