Forget it, there is no Terror threat. Period. - Page 8

Ion · 5th June 2007, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

I mean a little civility on your part might make people more willing to discuss issues with you seriously.

I disagree.

Civility from the liberals led to more leeway for the right wing to sling mud in 2004.

Like criticizing a Vietnam veteran's decorations, ironically by stay at home right wingers.

Mud slinging by right wingers was unmatched.

What was wrong in 2004 is that the right wingers were not called on and bashed.

The entire debacle that the right wing is bringing to the world now, should have been stopped in 2004 -and before- by calling on right wingers, smacking them and shaming them to quit.

Ion · 5th June 2007, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Tailgater

His mom must be down in the basement helping him edit all of his posts. This page of the thread is suddenly changing.

No Tailgater.

Rather your homeless mom helps you to lie.

Ion · 5th June 2007, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

...
Why did you run away from your homeland, Romania, rather than stay there and make it a better place with your incredible wit and talent?

Coward much?
...
DR

No.

Illusions.

Illusions that elsewhere (in U.S.) is different.

Ion · 5th June 2007, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Tailgater

...This thread was about the virtual non-existence of terrorist threats till it was hijacked with all the "Bush lied about Iraq" bickering.
...

Well,

Bush lied about Iraq.

It applies straight to Forget it, there is no Terror threat. Period.

Ion · 5th June 2007, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Cry me a river. So, his revenge is using up good people's air in San Diego CA.
...
DR

Cry me a river:

your "...good people...", when they are U.S. military or navy, when they are right wingers, I am bashing them in person here in San Diego.

The brutes they even don't expect to be exposed like I do it to their face.

They are used to taking advantage with force of mild liberals.

I show them force from a liberal.

BPSCG · 5th June 2007, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

I mean a little civility on your part might make people more willing to discuss issues with you seriously.

Originally Posted by Ion

I disagree.

Very well. I have nothing more to say to you. Good-bye.

Ziggurat · 5th June 2007, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ion

The entire debacle that the right wing is bringing to the world now, should have been stopped in 2004 -and before- by calling on right wingers, smacking them and shaming them to quit.

And how many "right wingers" have you gotten to "quit" by being a complete ass? The only thing you've accomplished on this board is embarassing the other war opponents who, unlike you, don't require high doses of clozapine to keep the the trees fro screaming.

Ion · 5th June 2007, 04:08 PM

Many.

You will too, soon, old man.

Ziggurat · 5th June 2007, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ion

Many.

My fault: I didn't mean how many people you've gotten to quit talking to you.

Ion · 5th June 2007, 04:42 PM

That's a step in the right direction:

the right wingers should be silenced.

Ziggurat · 5th June 2007, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Ion

the right wingers should be silenced.

Of course. After all, who needs free speech when we've got people like Ion telling us what to think and say?

Nobody like you, Ion. Not even the other left wingers. When you're crying yourself to sleep at night, do you ever wonder why?

Corsair 115 · 5th June 2007, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by NoZed Avenger

I've not heard of that previously.

The only authority I have seen argued for anything remotely similar regards the non-uniformed combatants picked up in an actual fight.

Do you have a cite or anythign to look at?!

This Wikipedia page is a quick starting point. According to it, security certificates apparently go back a couple of decades. I know some security legislation was passed by Parliament in the aftermath of 9/11, and thought security certificates were introduced as part of that, but it seems I was incorrect about that particular element.

This CTV News article mentions a bit about the legislation passed back in 2001 when it came up for renewal earlier this year.

RandFan · 5th June 2007, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ion

That's a step in the right direction:

the right wingers should be silenced.

You would fit nicely in a George Orwell novel.

You have only silence people talking to you.
You have silenced, liberals, Democrats, Independents, left leaning moderates and right leaning Republicans also.

Good job!

Oliver · 5th June 2007, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

And, speaking of Germany, their police have been getting some harm from a bunch of German/European terrorists today (160 plus wounded if the US media hasn't just lied about it). Some silliness about an economic conference. Must be imagining it since there is no terrorism-Oliver said so and he's right there!

For those who don't understand the purpose of terrorism:

Building confusion and fear to manipulate the Enemies social behavior.
Weaken or influencing the enemies economy/military/politics = catching focus/distracting from other issues.
Forcing the Enemy to take appreciated and/or unreasonable actions.
Splitting/distracting alliances/supporters of the enemy to reduce the enemies inner power.

YOU FELL INTO THE AL QAIDA TRAP.
HOW ARE YOU DOING DOWN THERE?

RandFan · 6th June 2007, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

For those who don't understand the purpose of terrorism:

Building confusion and fear to manipulate the Enemies social behavior.
Weaken or influencing the enemies economy/military/politics = catching focus/distracting from other issues.
Forcing the Enemy to take appreciated and/or unreasonable actions.
Splitting/distracting alliances/supporters of the enemy to reduce the enemies inner power.

YOU FELL INTO THE AL QAIDA TRAP.
HOW ARE YOU DOING DOWN THERE?

Actually we are doing pretty damn good. Average citizens are going about their business and there hasn't been an attack since 9/11. The economy has recovered and we don't cower in fear. We over threw the Taliban and Al Qaeda and killed a lot of their people.

It's mixed, we have had failures. Intellectual honesty compels one to acknowledge that. On the other hand, it would take a lack of intellectual honesty to cherry pick the results of our response to terror the way you have.

NeoRicen · 6th June 2007, 03:11 AM

Quote:

and we don't cower in fear

Well some of us don't...

brodski · 6th June 2007, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

You would fit nicely in a George Orwell novel.

Down and out in Paris and London?

Tailgater · 6th June 2007, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Actually we are doing pretty damn good. Average citizens are going about their business and there hasn't been an attack since 9/11. The economy has recovered and we don't cower in fear. We over threw the Taliban and Al Qaeda and killed a lot of their people.

It's mixed, we have had failures. Intellectual honesty compels one to acknowledge that. On the other hand, it would take a lack of intellectual honesty to cherry pick the results of our response to terror the way you have.

Very nice rational post.

Oliver · 6th June 2007, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Actually we are doing pretty damn good. Average citizens are going about their business and there hasn't been an attack since 9/11. The economy has recovered and we don't cower in fear. We over threw the Taliban and Al Qaeda and killed a lot of their people.

It's mixed, we have had failures. Intellectual honesty compels one to acknowledge that. On the other hand, it would take a lack of intellectual honesty to cherry pick the results of our response to terror the way you have.

Well, I don't know everything that took place in America after 9/11, but what I've learned was a gigantic response on nearly every social and political sector. So from this viewpoint, 9/11 was an Al Qaida success story compared to the "War on Terror", thanks to the Iraq lie.

Or to say it differently: The current Government did everything to produce more reasons to hate America.

If I was Bin Laden, I would have laughed my ass off.

But kidding aside - maybe you have another definition of terroristic goals, do you?

Anyway, my main point still is - if the government doesn't care in a serious way besides using Terror as argument in campaigns, why should I? Why should those who feel scared and unsafe?

The possibility to die in some accident still is more than 100 times bigger - and don't forget how many people would have saved if the towers were evacuated immediately after the first impact.

Skibum · 6th June 2007, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

and don't forget how many people would have saved if the towers were evacuated immediately after the first impact.

Hindsights a bitch, too bad we all can't see the future.

Darth Rotor · 6th June 2007, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Ion

Cry me a river:

your "...good people...", when they are U.S. military or navy, when they are right wingers, I am bashing them in person here in San Diego.

The brutes they even don't expect to be exposed like I do it to their face.

They are used to taking advantage with force of mild liberals.

I show them force from a liberal.

Note: most people in San Diego are not in the military, and most people (based on my having lived there for about five years) in San Diego County are pretty decent people.

Could you provide more detail? Are you going out and starting fights with Navy men in San Diego? "Bashing?" Protesting in front of 32d street? Egging the houses in Mira Mesa?

What do you mean by this, in detail, Ion the oxygen thief? I get the sense that you are telling me about fantasies you have in your basement, but I'd be pleased to learn that this sense is in error.

DR

Ziggurat · 6th June 2007, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Or to say it differently: The current Government did everything to produce more reasons to hate America.

You're clueless, Oliver. That has never been what terrorists are short on. Hell, even the French hate us - but why am I not worried about Jacque LePew hijacking planes?

No, Oliver, playing nice to terrorists so that they don't hate you doesn't work. Never has, never will.

Quote:

But kidding aside - maybe you have another definition of terroristic goals, do you?

Actually, yes, you missed a pretty god-damned central aspect of the whole thing: its primary audience is actually not us, but the muslim world. 9/11 was a success for the terrorists in the sense that it made a lot of muslims think that terrorist were these heroes who could bring the Great Satan to its knees. And that's incredibly dangerous, because people adopt behavior they think is successful, and it looked like terrorism was successful. So how do you counter that? By striking back, hard. By showing that we WILL not be brought to our knees, that no matter how hard they hit us, we WILL hit back even harder, that not only can they not hope to win through terrorism, but that they will LOSE whenever they even try. If they hate us for it, that's fine: as long as they know that terrorism cannot defeat us, and that our response will always hurt them more than it hurts us, then they will learn to express that hatred through other means. Like the French do.

Quote:

Anyway, my main point still is - if the government doesn't care in a serious way besides using Terror as argument in campaigns, why should I?

You're clueless, Oliver. And I'm getting tired of trying to open your eyes when you're determined to keep them shut. You came to this board asking questions, and you've been given lots of answers, but you haven't paid attention to any of them.

Quote:

and don't forget how many people would have saved if the towers were evacuated immediately after the first impact.

And don't forget how many more people would have died if the first plane had hit lower down the tower. Also don't forget how many of those people died, Oliver.

You're worthless, Oliver. You're absolutely worthless.

Ion · 6th June 2007, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

...
Nobody like you, Ion. Not even the other left wingers...

Nobody you understand.

The ones that you don't understand, do like me.

Ion · 6th June 2007, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

...
You have only silence people talking to you.
You have silenced, liberals, Democrats, Independents, left leaning moderates and right leaning Republicans also.

Good job!

Did I silence France's Chirac?

Did I silence Germany's Schroeder?

They were exposing Bush's war as a war for occupation, not liberation.

In last Thursday's news, Bush's plans for long term occupation of Iraq proves them right.

Did I silence Oliver, here?

Look at the world.

The world sees Bush as the greatest threat.

How many U.S. soldiers died in Iraq yesterday?

They die because they -and you- are liked?

The world despises you, U.S. Fascists.

Ion · 6th June 2007, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Skibum

Hindsights a bitch, too bad we all can't see the future.

The anti-war movement was right in 2003.

BPSCG · 6th June 2007, 09:13 AM

This makes a wonderful lamb kebab. The marinade works even better on chunks of chicken; we used skinless thighs and it was the most flavorful chicken I've had in a long time.

It will probably make more couscous than you really need. Oh, and you really don't have to boil the apricots unless they're the really tough, chewy dried ones.

3/4 cup olive oil
2/3 cup fresh lemon juice
6 large garlic cloves, minced
2 tablespoons chopped fresh mint
4 teaspoons salt
4 teaspoons grated lemon peel
2 teaspoons ground black pepper
2 teaspoons ground coriander
1 teaspoon ground cumin
4 pounds well-trimmed boneless leg of lamb, cut into 2-inch cubes

16 12-inch-long metal skewers
32 whole dried apricots (preferably Mediterranean), soaked in boiling water 5 minutes, drained
4 red onions, each cut into 8 chunks

Golden Couscous preparation

Whisk first 9 ingredients in medium bowl to blend. Transfer 1/2 cup marinade to small bowl; cover, chill, and reserve as basting sauce. Add lamb to remaining marinade in medium bowl; toss to coat. Marinate 2 hours at room temperature or cover and refrigerate overnight.

Prepare barbecue (medium-high heat). Remove lamb from marinade. Thread lamb cubes onto 8 skewers, dividing equally. Thread apricots and onion chunks alternately on remaining 8 skewers. Brush all skewers with some of reserved 1/2 cup marinade. Sprinkle onion-apricot skewers with salt and pepper. Grill onion-apricot skewers until onions soften and begin to brown, occasionally turning and basting with marinade and moving skewers to cooler part of barbecue if necessary to keep apricots from burning, about 10 minutes. Grill lamb to desired doneness, turning occasionally, about 8 minutes for medium-rare.

Mound Golden Couscous on platter. Top with skewers and serve.

Darth Rotor · 6th June 2007, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Ion

The anti-war movement was right in 2003.

OK, let's take that as a premise. What did they achieve by guessing correctly? What policy action, what change, what succor to the downtrodden was achieved by being right? Being right and being able to act on that rightness are two different things.

I'll suggest that the fundemantal failure in the anti war message was its packaging. The audience who needed to hear it, and be convinced, (Congress, among others) wasn't listening, partly due to how the message was presented (Of course, there are other factors). A bad sales pitch won't close the deal.

If I have right of way as a pedestrian, and cross the street, and am still hit by a car and killed by a driver failing to observe my right of way to walk across the street, I am right. I am also dead. A fat lot of good being right did me.

So, assuming your point is correct, a fat lot of good "being right" did the anti war movement, since it utterly failed to achieve its aim: prevent a war. If all they wanted to do was "be right," then the entire exercise was self massaging of their egos, and not much better than masturbation. I'll give Nader, Ellsberg, and Chomsky a bit more credit than that. You, not so much.

So, Ion, Mister Anti War Success in Being Right, how do you like your failure?

Let's switch to Ion style logic.

The soldiers and Iraqis are dead, thanks to your failure to stop the war. It's your fault, since you failed. You have blood on your hands, Ion, the blood of innocents, because you failed.

OK, that's enough Ion style logic.

DR

Ion · 6th June 2007, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

...
You're worthless, Oliver. You're absolutely worthless.

Really?

He is anti-war.

So let me get this straight:

you are pro-war, the war is a catastrophe, but you are worthy.

And anti-war Oliver who saves lives is "...worthless...".

It's the other way around, right wing coward Zig:

.) you are worthless;

.) Oliver is worthy.

Darth Rotor · 6th June 2007, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Ion

Really?

He is anti-war.

So let me get this straight:

you are pro-war, the war is a catastrophe, but you are worthy.

And anti-war Oliver who saves lives is "...worthless...".

It's the other way around, right wing coward RandFan:

.) you are worthless;

.) Oliver is worthy.

Ion, you were responding to Zig, yet you called RandFan a coward.

WTF?

DR

Ion · 6th June 2007, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

...
I'll suggest that the fundemantal failure in the anti war message was its packaging.
...
DR

Basement girl,

the anti-war movement should have exposed the U.S. Fascism in 2003.

Like Hitler should have been exposed, not appeased, in 1938.

Ion · 6th June 2007, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Ion, you were responding to Zig, yet you called RandFan a coward.

WTF?

DR

I meant Zig.

I edited it.

Darth Rotor · 6th June 2007, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ion

Basement girl,

the anti-war movement should have exposed the U.S. Fascism in 2003.

Like Hitler should have been exposed, not appeased, in 1938.

So you failed twice: you failed to "expose US Fascism" and you failed to stop a war. Want to go for the hat trick?

I seem to recall sufficient rhetoric, the use of name calling like "Fascist" in the run up to the war. Great way to win an argument, that ad hom, is it? Great way to convince people, a great way to sell your message, right?

Given the feedback I get when I throw rocks at people on this forum, the reverse if often the case.

DR

Ion · 6th June 2007, 09:39 AM

I succeeded twice:

.) Bush's U.S. is Fascist and I expose it;

.) I don't stop the war because the pro-war people get killed.

Lonewulf · 6th June 2007, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Ion

Basement girl,

the anti-war movement should have exposed the U.S. Fascism in 2003.

Like Hitler should have been exposed, not appeased, in 1938.

Godwinn'd

Azure · 6th June 2007, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Could you provide more detail? Are you going out and starting fights with Navy men in San Diego? "Bashing?" Protesting in front of 32d street? Egging the houses in Mira Mesa?
DR

Not in San Diego.

He should go to Coronado and start fights with the Navy guys there.

Azure · 6th June 2007, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Ion

I succeeded twice:

.) Bush's U.S. is Fascist and I expose it;

.) I don't stop the war because the pro-war people get killed.

Why is Fascism bad Ion?

Darth Rotor · 6th June 2007, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Azure

Not in San Diego.

He should go to Coronado and start fights with the Navy guys there.

At McP's pub, on IIRC Thursday nights. (That was the night where a particular strain of Coronado Naval Base denizens tended to congregate, and assume the chick magnet role.)

DR

Azure · 6th June 2007, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

At McP's pub, on IIRC Thursday nights. (That was the night where a particular strain of Coronado Naval Base denizens tended to congregate, and assume the chick magnet role.)

DR

I knew they weren't lying when some of those 'denizens' told me they did it to get the ladies.

NoZed Avenger · 6th June 2007, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

This Wikipedia page is a quick starting point. According to it, security certificates apparently go back a couple of decades. I know some security legislation was passed by Parliament in the aftermath of 9/11, and thought security certificates were introduced as part of that, but it seems I was incorrect about that particular element.

This CTV News article mentions a bit about the legislation passed back in 2001 when it came up for renewal earlier this year.

Thanks for the links -- reading now.

That was a big gap in my Canadian knowledge -- I had never even heard of it.

Ion · 6th June 2007, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

Godwinn'd

Fascistin'd.

5th June 2007, 02:43 PM	#281
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Originally Posted by BPSCG I mean a little civility on your part might make people more willing to discuss issues with you seriously. I disagree. Civility from the liberals led to more leeway for the right wing to sling mud in 2004. Like criticizing a Vietnam veteran's decorations, ironically by stay at home right wingers. Mud slinging by right wingers was unmatched. What was wrong in 2004 is that the right wingers were not called on and bashed. The entire debacle that the right wing is bringing to the world now, should have been stopped in 2004 -and before- by calling on right wingers, smacking them and shaming them to quit.
	Last edited by Ion; 5th June 2007 at 02:54 PM.

5th June 2007, 03:01 PM	#282
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Originally Posted by Tailgater His mom must be down in the basement helping him edit all of his posts. This page of the thread is suddenly changing. No Tailgater. Rather your homeless mom helps you to lie.
	Last edited by Ion; 5th June 2007 at 03:28 PM.

5th June 2007, 03:12 PM	#285
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Cry me a river. So, his revenge is using up good people's air in San Diego CA. ... DR Cry me a river: your "...good people...", when they are U.S. military or navy, when they are right wingers, I am bashing them in person here in San Diego. The brutes they even don't expect to be exposed like I do it to their face. They are used to taking advantage with force of mild liberals. I show them force from a liberal.
	Last edited by Ion; 5th June 2007 at 03:17 PM.

5th June 2007, 03:37 PM	#286
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by BPSCG I mean a little civility on your part might make people more willing to discuss issues with you seriously. Originally Posted by Ion I disagree. Very well. I have nothing more to say to you. Good-bye.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

5th June 2007, 04:04 PM	#287
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,213	Originally Posted by Ion The entire debacle that the right wing is bringing to the world now, should have been stopped in 2004 -and before- by calling on right wingers, smacking them and shaming them to quit. And how many "right wingers" have you gotten to "quit" by being a complete ass? The only thing you've accomplished on this board is embarassing the other war opponents who, unlike you, don't require high doses of clozapine to keep the the trees fro screaming.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th June 2007, 03:04 PM	#283
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor ... Why did you run away from your homeland, Romania, rather than stay there and make it a better place with your incredible wit and talent? Coward much? ... DR No. Illusions. Illusions that elsewhere (in U.S.) is different.

5th June 2007, 03:07 PM	#284
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Originally Posted by Tailgater ...This thread was about the virtual non-existence of terrorist threats till it was hijacked with all the "Bush lied about Iraq" bickering. ... Well, Bush lied about Iraq. It applies straight to Forget it, there is no Terror threat. Period.

5th June 2007, 04:08 PM	#288
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Many. You will too, soon, old man.
	Last edited by Ion; 5th June 2007 at 04:18 PM.

5th June 2007, 04:38 PM	#289
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,213	Originally Posted by Ion Many. My fault: I didn't mean how many people you've gotten to quit talking to you.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th June 2007, 04:42 PM	#290
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	That's a step in the right direction: the right wingers should be silenced.

5th June 2007, 05:03 PM	#291
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,213	Originally Posted by Ion the right wingers should be silenced. Of course. After all, who needs free speech when we've got people like Ion telling us what to think and say? Nobody like you, Ion. Not even the other left wingers. When you're crying yourself to sleep at night, do you ever wonder why?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th June 2007, 08:49 PM	#292
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,588	Originally Posted by NoZed Avenger I've not heard of that previously. The only authority I have seen argued for anything remotely similar regards the non-uniformed combatants picked up in an actual fight. Do you have a cite or anythign to look at?! This Wikipedia page is a quick starting point. According to it, security certificates apparently go back a couple of decades. I know some security legislation was passed by Parliament in the aftermath of 9/11, and thought security certificates were introduced as part of that, but it seems I was incorrect about that particular element. This CTV News article mentions a bit about the legislation passed back in 2001 when it came up for renewal earlier this year.
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

5th June 2007, 09:19 PM	#293
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,355	Originally Posted by Ion That's a step in the right direction: the right wingers should be silenced. You would fit nicely in a George Orwell novel. You have only silence people talking to you. You have silenced, liberals, Democrats, Independents, left leaning moderates and right leaning Republicans also. Good job!
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

5th June 2007, 09:29 PM	#294
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by fuelair And, speaking of Germany, their police have been getting some harm from a bunch of German/European terrorists today (160 plus wounded if the US media hasn't just lied about it). Some silliness about an economic conference. Must be imagining it since there is no terrorism-Oliver said so and he's right there! For those who don't understand the purpose of terrorism: Building confusion and fear to manipulate the Enemies social behavior. Weaken or influencing the enemies economy/military/politics = catching focus/distracting from other issues. Forcing the Enemy to take appreciated and/or unreasonable actions. Splitting/distracting alliances/supporters of the enemy to reduce the enemies inner power. YOU FELL INTO THE AL QAIDA TRAP. HOW ARE YOU DOING DOWN THERE?
	__________________

6th June 2007, 12:58 AM	#295
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,355	Originally Posted by Oliver For those who don't understand the purpose of terrorism: Building confusion and fear to manipulate the Enemies social behavior. Weaken or influencing the enemies economy/military/politics = catching focus/distracting from other issues. Forcing the Enemy to take appreciated and/or unreasonable actions. Splitting/distracting alliances/supporters of the enemy to reduce the enemies inner power. YOU FELL INTO THE AL QAIDA TRAP. HOW ARE YOU DOING DOWN THERE? Actually we are doing pretty damn good. Average citizens are going about their business and there hasn't been an attack since 9/11. The economy has recovered and we don't cower in fear. We over threw the Taliban and Al Qaeda and killed a lot of their people. It's mixed, we have had failures. Intellectual honesty compels one to acknowledge that. On the other hand, it would take a lack of intellectual honesty to cherry pick the results of our response to terror the way you have.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

6th June 2007, 03:11 AM	#296
NeoRicen Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 444	Quote: and we don't cower in fear Well some of us don't...
NeoRicen Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 444

6th June 2007, 03:34 AM	#297
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,086	Originally Posted by RandFan You would fit nicely in a George Orwell novel. Down and out in Paris and London?
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,086

6th June 2007, 04:27 AM	#298
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by RandFan Actually we are doing pretty damn good. Average citizens are going about their business and there hasn't been an attack since 9/11. The economy has recovered and we don't cower in fear. We over threw the Taliban and Al Qaeda and killed a lot of their people. It's mixed, we have had failures. Intellectual honesty compels one to acknowledge that. On the other hand, it would take a lack of intellectual honesty to cherry pick the results of our response to terror the way you have. Very nice rational post.
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212

6th June 2007, 05:21 AM	#299
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by RandFan Actually we are doing pretty damn good. Average citizens are going about their business and there hasn't been an attack since 9/11. The economy has recovered and we don't cower in fear. We over threw the Taliban and Al Qaeda and killed a lot of their people. It's mixed, we have had failures. Intellectual honesty compels one to acknowledge that. On the other hand, it would take a lack of intellectual honesty to cherry pick the results of our response to terror the way you have. Well, I don't know everything that took place in America after 9/11, but what I've learned was a gigantic response on nearly every social and political sector. So from this viewpoint, 9/11 was an Al Qaida success story compared to the "War on Terror", thanks to the Iraq lie. Or to say it differently: The current Government did everything to produce more reasons to hate America. If I was Bin Laden, I would have laughed my ass off. But kidding aside - maybe you have another definition of terroristic goals, do you? Anyway, my main point still is - if the government doesn't care in a serious way besides using Terror as argument in campaigns, why should I? Why should those who feel scared and unsafe? The possibility to die in some accident still is more than 100 times bigger - and don't forget how many people would have saved if the towers were evacuated immediately after the first impact.
	__________________

6th June 2007, 06:24 AM	#300
Skibum Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Fredericksburg, Virginia Posts: 1,187	Originally Posted by Oliver and don't forget how many people would have saved if the towers were evacuated immediately after the first impact. Hindsights a bitch, too bad we all can't see the future.

6th June 2007, 08:23 AM	#301
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by Ion Cry me a river: your "...good people...", when they are U.S. military or navy, when they are right wingers, I am bashing them in person here in San Diego. The brutes they even don't expect to be exposed like I do it to their face. They are used to taking advantage with force of mild liberals. I show them force from a liberal. Note: most people in San Diego are not in the military, and most people (based on my having lived there for about five years) in San Diego County are pretty decent people. Could you provide more detail? Are you going out and starting fights with Navy men in San Diego? "Bashing?" Protesting in front of 32d street? Egging the houses in Mira Mesa? What do you mean by this, in detail, Ion the oxygen thief? I get the sense that you are telling me about fantasies you have in your basement, but I'd be pleased to learn that this sense is in error. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

6th June 2007, 08:40 AM	#302
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,213	Originally Posted by Oliver Or to say it differently: The current Government did everything to produce more reasons to hate America. You're clueless, Oliver. That has never been what terrorists are short on. Hell, even the French hate us - but why am I not worried about Jacque LePew hijacking planes? No, Oliver, playing nice to terrorists so that they don't hate you doesn't work. Never has, never will. Quote: But kidding aside - maybe you have another definition of terroristic goals, do you? Actually, yes, you missed a pretty god-damned central aspect of the whole thing: its primary audience is actually not us, but the muslim world. 9/11 was a success for the terrorists in the sense that it made a lot of muslims think that terrorist were these heroes who could bring the Great Satan to its knees. And that's incredibly dangerous, because people adopt behavior they think is successful, and it looked like terrorism was successful. So how do you counter that? By striking back, hard. By showing that we WILL not be brought to our knees, that no matter how hard they hit us, we WILL hit back even harder, that not only can they not hope to win through terrorism, but that they will LOSE whenever they even try. If they hate us for it, that's fine: as long as they know that terrorism cannot defeat us, and that our response will always hurt them more than it hurts us, then they will learn to express that hatred through other means. Like the French do. Quote: Anyway, my main point still is - if the government doesn't care in a serious way besides using Terror as argument in campaigns, why should I? You're clueless, Oliver. And I'm getting tired of trying to open your eyes when you're determined to keep them shut. You came to this board asking questions, and you've been given lots of answers, but you haven't paid attention to any of them. Quote: and don't forget how many people would have saved if the towers were evacuated immediately after the first impact. And don't forget how many more people would have died if the first plane had hit lower down the tower. Also don't forget how many of those people died, Oliver. You're worthless, Oliver. You're absolutely worthless.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

6th June 2007, 09:06 AM	#303
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Originally Posted by Ziggurat ... Nobody like you, Ion. Not even the other left wingers... Nobody you understand. The ones that you don't understand, do like me.

6th June 2007, 09:09 AM	#304
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Originally Posted by RandFan ... You have only silence people talking to you. You have silenced, liberals, Democrats, Independents, left leaning moderates and right leaning Republicans also. Good job! Did I silence France's Chirac? Did I silence Germany's Schroeder? They were exposing Bush's war as a war for occupation, not liberation. In last Thursday's news, Bush's plans for long term occupation of Iraq proves them right. Did I silence Oliver, here? Look at the world. The world sees Bush as the greatest threat. How many U.S. soldiers died in Iraq yesterday? They die because they -and you- are liked? The world despises you, U.S. Fascists.
	Last edited by Ion; 6th June 2007 at 09:17 AM.

6th June 2007, 09:12 AM	#305
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Originally Posted by Skibum Hindsights a bitch, too bad we all can't see the future. The anti-war movement was right in 2003.

6th June 2007, 09:13 AM	#306
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	This makes a wonderful lamb kebab. The marinade works even better on chunks of chicken; we used skinless thighs and it was the most flavorful chicken I've had in a long time. It will probably make more couscous than you really need. Oh, and you really don't have to boil the apricots unless they're the really tough, chewy dried ones. 3/4 cup olive oil 2/3 cup fresh lemon juice 6 large garlic cloves, minced 2 tablespoons chopped fresh mint 4 teaspoons salt 4 teaspoons grated lemon peel 2 teaspoons ground black pepper 2 teaspoons ground coriander 1 teaspoon ground cumin 4 pounds well-trimmed boneless leg of lamb, cut into 2-inch cubes 16 12-inch-long metal skewers 32 whole dried apricots (preferably Mediterranean), soaked in boiling water 5 minutes, drained 4 red onions, each cut into 8 chunks Golden Couscous preparation Whisk first 9 ingredients in medium bowl to blend. Transfer 1/2 cup marinade to small bowl; cover, chill, and reserve as basting sauce. Add lamb to remaining marinade in medium bowl; toss to coat. Marinate 2 hours at room temperature or cover and refrigerate overnight. Prepare barbecue (medium-high heat). Remove lamb from marinade. Thread lamb cubes onto 8 skewers, dividing equally. Thread apricots and onion chunks alternately on remaining 8 skewers. Brush all skewers with some of reserved 1/2 cup marinade. Sprinkle onion-apricot skewers with salt and pepper. Grill onion-apricot skewers until onions soften and begin to brown, occasionally turning and basting with marinade and moving skewers to cooler part of barbecue if necessary to keep apricots from burning, about 10 minutes. Grill lamb to desired doneness, turning occasionally, about 8 minutes for medium-rare. Mound Golden Couscous on platter. Top with skewers and serve.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

6th June 2007, 09:24 AM	#307
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by Ion The anti-war movement was right in 2003. OK, let's take that as a premise. What did they achieve by guessing correctly? What policy action, what change, what succor to the downtrodden was achieved by being right? Being right and being able to act on that rightness are two different things. I'll suggest that the fundemantal failure in the anti war message was its packaging. The audience who needed to hear it, and be convinced, (Congress, among others) wasn't listening, partly due to how the message was presented (Of course, there are other factors). A bad sales pitch won't close the deal. If I have right of way as a pedestrian, and cross the street, and am still hit by a car and killed by a driver failing to observe my right of way to walk across the street, I am right. I am also dead. A fat lot of good being right did me. So, assuming your point is correct, a fat lot of good "being right" did the anti war movement, since it utterly failed to achieve its aim: prevent a war. If all they wanted to do was "be right," then the entire exercise was self massaging of their egos, and not much better than masturbation. I'll give Nader, Ellsberg, and Chomsky a bit more credit than that. You, not so much. So, Ion, Mister Anti War Success in Being Right, how do you like your failure? Let's switch to Ion style logic. The soldiers and Iraqis are dead, thanks to your failure to stop the war. It's your fault, since you failed. You have blood on your hands, Ion, the blood of innocents, because you failed. OK, that's enough Ion style logic. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 6th June 2007 at 09:26 AM.

6th June 2007, 09:26 AM	#308
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Originally Posted by Ziggurat ... You're worthless, Oliver. You're absolutely worthless. Really? He is anti-war. So let me get this straight: you are pro-war, the war is a catastrophe, but you are worthy. And anti-war Oliver who saves lives is "...worthless...". It's the other way around, right wing coward Zig: .) you are worthless; .) Oliver is worthy.
	Last edited by Ion; 6th June 2007 at 09:32 AM.

6th June 2007, 09:28 AM	#309
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by Ion Really? He is anti-war. So let me get this straight: you are pro-war, the war is a catastrophe, but you are worthy. And anti-war Oliver who saves lives is "...worthless...". It's the other way around, right wing coward RandFan: .) you are worthless; .) Oliver is worthy. Ion, you were responding to Zig, yet you called RandFan a coward. WTF? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

6th June 2007, 09:30 AM	#310
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor ... I'll suggest that the fundemantal failure in the anti war message was its packaging. ... DR Basement girl, the anti-war movement should have exposed the U.S. Fascism in 2003. Like Hitler should have been exposed, not appeased, in 1938.

6th June 2007, 09:31 AM	#311
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Ion, you were responding to Zig, yet you called RandFan a coward. WTF? DR I meant Zig. I edited it.

6th June 2007, 09:36 AM	#312
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by Ion Basement girl, the anti-war movement should have exposed the U.S. Fascism in 2003. Like Hitler should have been exposed, not appeased, in 1938. So you failed twice: you failed to "expose US Fascism" and you failed to stop a war. Want to go for the hat trick? I seem to recall sufficient rhetoric, the use of name calling like "Fascist" in the run up to the war. Great way to win an argument, that ad hom, is it? Great way to convince people, a great way to sell your message, right? Given the feedback I get when I throw rocks at people on this forum, the reverse if often the case. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

6th June 2007, 09:39 AM	#313
Ion Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Diego, California, US Posts: 3,262	I succeeded twice: .) Bush's U.S. is Fascist and I expose it; .) I don't stop the war because the pro-war people get killed.

6th June 2007, 10:14 AM	#314
Lonewulf Humanistic Cyborg Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 10,380	Originally Posted by Ion Basement girl, the anti-war movement should have exposed the U.S. Fascism in 2003. Like Hitler should have been exposed, not appeased, in 1938. Godwinn'd
	__________________ Writing.com Account

6th June 2007, 10:20 AM	#315
Azure Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Alberta Posts: 2,538	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Could you provide more detail? Are you going out and starting fights with Navy men in San Diego? "Bashing?" Protesting in front of 32d street? Egging the houses in Mira Mesa? DR Not in San Diego. He should go to Coronado and start fights with the Navy guys there.