Water Fuel

grayman · 17th June 2007, 07:01 PM

Has anyone seen this video? An inventor claims to have created an engine that runs on water.

I am hoping someone more knowledgeable in chemistry and engineering will comment.

Earthborn · 17th June 2007, 07:50 PM

It has been discussed before. Here for example.

The technology is no magic, and quite likely to work. But it does not use water as a fuel, and it does not do anything that 'scientists once thought is impossible'. Water is split into hydrogen and oxygen, and apperently the guy uses a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gas to power stuff. Basically high school chemistry stuff, while doing something more useful than causing loud bangs.

The snag of technology is the same as all hydrogen and air powered contraptions: it takes more energy to produce the 'fuel' than you get out of using it, and that energy comes from electricity out of a wall socket that has to be produced somewhere else. Inventions like these offer a great promise for a possible future in which nuclear fusion can provide us with energy to spare. What the world needs right now are actual energy sources, not more ways to spend energy.

blutoski · 17th June 2007, 11:41 PM

Actually, the Kleins' claims are a little twist on this. Yes, it's an electrolysis machine: their claim to inventing a new substance is bogus, and this part is a scam. However, they're not claiming it's a fuel source. They're making two somewhat original claims:

that it's a substitute for oxyacetylene for welding tasks
that it is a fuel additive that improves mileage in a conventional fossil-fuel engine

It's possible that these claims could be true. Their evidence is shrouded in secrecy, so for the timebeing, skepticism is appropriate.

My prediction is that the Kleins will go the Dennis Lee route or fade away.

DRBUZZ0 · 17th June 2007, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by grayman

Has anyone seen this video? An inventor claims to have created an engine that runs on water.

I am hoping someone more knowledgeable in chemistry and engineering will comment.

GAAA! This "I can run my car on water" thing just will not go away.

No you cannot. Water will not decompose without putting energy into it (of equal or less to what you get from the components). Water will not react with any component of the air. You *could* in theory run a car on water and something else (like lithium, sodium other chemicals) but that doesn't really help ya does it?

Water cannot ever be used by itself as a fuel because it contains zero chemical energy by itsself. Sure, you can split it and run the car on hydrogen, but you need ENERGY to do that, so you would need to do it ahead of time and you would need more energy (from grid power or something) than you would ever get back. Not to mention that there are other complications with fueling a car on hydrogen.

Ok... I was not entirely accurate. There is a way you can fuel a car on just water... build a giant scaffolding or tower ontop of the car, put a big tank of water on it and have it come down and turn a waterwheel or turbine. I somehow doubt it will produce enough energy to move the massive tower and the car it is build on, but you can give it a shot

blutoski · 17th June 2007, 11:49 PM

Again: DRBUZZO... Klein is not claiming that the car runs on water. It is merely an additive to the combustion engine.

Note: I don't think it actually improves mileage 30% as Klein claims... I just want to clarify for the sake of discussion.

Further: even if it improves mileage by x%, it would need to be demonstrated that the cost of using this additive is less expensive than the fuel required to go that extra distance.

Just to complicate things, he also claims the additive reduces emissions. No evidence, of course.

LTC8K6 · 17th June 2007, 11:54 PM

Sounds like the age old Brown's gas scam to me.

AZAtheist · 18th June 2007, 01:02 AM

You'd think that Fox News, since they presented this fluff piece, would take the time to revisit it and set the record straight. I remember when it showed up on TV...I was watching it through my TiVo and was able to go back and review the claims. The story fell apart like a well boiled chicken when the inventor stated that he started with water and decomposed it "using an electrical process". He might have said proprietary electrical process but no matter, the answer for all educated, rational people is there. Hydrogen and Oxygen are a great fuel and it sends people and things into orbit regularly. However, getting Hydrogen and Oxygen from water is not an efficient process. LTC8K6 refers to the "Brown's" gas. It was an attempt to put Hydrogen and Oxygen together so that a welder would be able to use a single tank. The problem was that the tank would explode if the presure was allowed to go much below 200 psi.

TjW · 18th June 2007, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by blutoski

Actually, the Kleins' claims are a little twist on this. Yes, it's an electrolysis machine: their claim to inventing a new substance is bogus, and this part is a scam. However, they're not claiming it's a fuel source. They're making two somewhat original claims:

that it's a substitute for oxyacetylene for welding tasks
that it is a fuel additive that improves mileage in a conventional fossil-fuel engine

It's possible that these claims could be true. Their evidence is shrouded in secrecy, so for the timebeing, skepticism is appropriate.

My prediction is that the Kleins will go the Dennis Lee route or fade away.

Hydrogen-oxygen torches have been used since practically forever in making glassware and jewelery.
There are SAE papers that show efficiency improvements in IC engines with some small amount of hydrogen injection.

So it's hard to see how anyone can claim that this was unknown to science.

But hydroxy torches aren't going to replace oxyacetylene for most welding, because while they're high temperature, they're relatively low energy.
And I doubt hydrogen injection will go much of anywhere for mobile applications, because you'd either have to reform the hydrocarbon fuel on board (expensive), use a very efficient alternator and electrolysis system while adding water to a separate tank when refueling (expensive and a PITA), or refill a separate hydrogen tank when you refuel ( a PITA).

So I agree with you and LTC8K6: this is a retread of a Brown's gas scam.

MilwaukeeMike · 18th June 2007, 08:20 AM

Wouldn't that be nice... Just plug you water hose into your gas tank...

Mashuna · 18th June 2007, 08:33 AM

I thought I had a car that runs on water. It turns out that it's actually called a boat.

17th June 2007, 07:01 PM	#1
grayman Happy-go-lucky Heretic Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Casa del Whacko Posts: 6,142	Water Fuel Has anyone seen this video? An inventor claims to have created an engine that runs on water. I am hoping someone more knowledgeable in chemistry and engineering will comment.
	__________________ Stupidity is a condition. Ignorance is a choice. - Wiley All great truths begin as blasphemies. - George Bernard Shaw God is evil. As soon as you accept that, it all makes sense. - Sledge

17th June 2007, 07:50 PM	#2
Earthborn Terrestrial Intelligence Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Terra Firma Posts: 5,647	It has been discussed before. Here for example. The technology is no magic, and quite likely to work. But it does not use water as a fuel, and it does not do anything that 'scientists once thought is impossible'. Water is split into hydrogen and oxygen, and apperently the guy uses a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gas to power stuff. Basically high school chemistry stuff, while doing something more useful than causing loud bangs. The snag of technology is the same as all hydrogen and air powered contraptions: it takes more energy to produce the 'fuel' than you get out of using it, and that energy comes from electricity out of a wall socket that has to be produced somewhere else. Inventions like these offer a great promise for a possible future in which nuclear fusion can provide us with energy to spare. What the world needs right now are actual energy sources, not more ways to spend energy.
	__________________ Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that! Multatuli

17th June 2007, 11:41 PM	#3
blutoski Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 5,966	Actually, the Kleins' claims are a little twist on this. Yes, it's an electrolysis machine: their claim to inventing a new substance is bogus, and this part is a scam. However, they're not claiming it's a fuel source. They're making two somewhat original claims: that it's a substitute for oxyacetylene for welding tasks that it is a fuel additive that improves mileage in a conventional fossil-fuel engine It's possible that these claims could be true. Their evidence is shrouded in secrecy, so for the timebeing, skepticism is appropriate. My prediction is that the Kleins will go the Dennis Lee route or fade away.
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

17th June 2007, 11:49 PM	#5
blutoski Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 5,966	Again: DRBUZZO... Klein is not claiming that the car runs on water. It is merely an additive to the combustion engine. Note: I don't think it actually improves mileage 30% as Klein claims... I just want to clarify for the sake of discussion. Further: even if it improves mileage by x%, it would need to be demonstrated that the cost of using this additive is less expensive than the fuel required to go that extra distance. Just to complicate things, he also claims the additive reduces emissions. No evidence, of course.
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

17th June 2007, 11:54 PM	#6
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,629	Sounds like the age old Brown's gas scam to me.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

17th June 2007, 11:44 PM	#4
DRBUZZ0 Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: The Command Bunker Posts: 3,320	Originally Posted by grayman Has anyone seen this video? An inventor claims to have created an engine that runs on water. I am hoping someone more knowledgeable in chemistry and engineering will comment. GAAA! This "I can run my car on water" thing just will not go away. No you cannot. Water will not decompose without putting energy into it (of equal or less to what you get from the components). Water will not react with any component of the air. You could in theory run a car on water and something else (like lithium, sodium other chemicals) but that doesn't really help ya does it? Water cannot ever be used by itself as a fuel because it contains zero chemical energy by itsself. Sure, you can split it and run the car on hydrogen, but you need ENERGY to do that, so you would need to do it ahead of time and you would need more energy (from grid power or something) than you would ever get back. Not to mention that there are other complications with fueling a car on hydrogen. Ok... I was not entirely accurate. There is a way you can fuel a car on just water... build a giant scaffolding or tower ontop of the car, put a big tank of water on it and have it come down and turn a waterwheel or turbine. I somehow doubt it will produce enough energy to move the massive tower and the car it is build on, but you can give it a shot

18th June 2007, 01:02 AM	#7
AZAtheist Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 225	You'd think that Fox News, since they presented this fluff piece, would take the time to revisit it and set the record straight. I remember when it showed up on TV...I was watching it through my TiVo and was able to go back and review the claims. The story fell apart like a well boiled chicken when the inventor stated that he started with water and decomposed it "using an electrical process". He might have said proprietary electrical process but no matter, the answer for all educated, rational people is there. Hydrogen and Oxygen are a great fuel and it sends people and things into orbit regularly. However, getting Hydrogen and Oxygen from water is not an efficient process. LTC8K6 refers to the "Brown's" gas. It was an attempt to put Hydrogen and Oxygen together so that a welder would be able to use a single tank. The problem was that the tank would explode if the presure was allowed to go much below 200 psi.

18th June 2007, 07:46 AM	#8
TjW Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: up in the air Posts: 9,974	Originally Posted by blutoski Actually, the Kleins' claims are a little twist on this. Yes, it's an electrolysis machine: their claim to inventing a new substance is bogus, and this part is a scam. However, they're not claiming it's a fuel source. They're making two somewhat original claims: that it's a substitute for oxyacetylene for welding tasks that it is a fuel additive that improves mileage in a conventional fossil-fuel engine It's possible that these claims could be true. Their evidence is shrouded in secrecy, so for the timebeing, skepticism is appropriate. My prediction is that the Kleins will go the Dennis Lee route or fade away. Hydrogen-oxygen torches have been used since practically forever in making glassware and jewelery. There are SAE papers that show efficiency improvements in IC engines with some small amount of hydrogen injection. So it's hard to see how anyone can claim that this was unknown to science. But hydroxy torches aren't going to replace oxyacetylene for most welding, because while they're high temperature, they're relatively low energy. And I doubt hydrogen injection will go much of anywhere for mobile applications, because you'd either have to reform the hydrocarbon fuel on board (expensive), use a very efficient alternator and electrolysis system while adding water to a separate tank when refueling (expensive and a PITA), or refill a separate hydrogen tank when you refuel ( a PITA). So I agree with you and LTC8K6: this is a retread of a Brown's gas scam.
	__________________ TjW People like TjW -- Kelly

18th June 2007, 08:20 AM	#9
MilwaukeeMike Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Plains of Oblivion Posts: 793	Wouldn't that be nice... Just plug you water hose into your gas tank...
	__________________ "Let the bears pay the bears tax, I pay the Homer tax!"

18th June 2007, 08:33 AM	#10
Mashuna Ovis ex Machina Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Welsh Wales Posts: 6,579	I thought I had a car that runs on water. It turns out that it's actually called a boat.