Question for magicians

the_snowpooch · 18th June 2007, 11:56 PM

Hey there.

I'm a writer, not a magician. I've been tinkering with the idea of a skeptic-type magician as a character and was wondering if someone could direct me to some reference sources (books or websites). I'm primarily interested in menatlism (ALA Banacek) and new style stuff like Copperfield/Blaine. I'm not so much interested in exactly how they do their tricks but more the theory behind them in general.

There's a lot of stuff out there and I figured you guys would know which are the best.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Dinsdale Piranha · 19th June 2007, 07:25 AM

I'm not much into mentalism either, but along with Banachek, Ian Rowland is the next name that comes to mind. Of particular interest would probably be his Full Facts Book of Cold Reading found on his website:

http://www.ianrowland.com/

Stir · 19th June 2007, 08:57 AM

Snowp:
You're asking a rather ambiguous question. There is a lot of literature on magic, covering it from many, many perspectives. Dinsdale has recommended an excellent book, very valuable if you want to either perform or understand cold reading, but I get the impression what you're after is information useful in creating a fictional magician character. That's going to be moderately difficult to do well without an in depth knowledge of magic ... but a starting point might be to read some other fiction which includes a magician ... and there's a lot of it (much of it very bad). I'd recommend Clayton Rawson's books as a good start.

JonWhite · 19th June 2007, 09:19 AM

Derren Brown has a couple of trade books called "Absolute Magic" and "Pure Effect". The latter does include a few effects, but both are mostly his thinking on the theory and creation of the magic art that may be the kind of thing you're looking for. They're a little difficult to get hold of though.

You could check out his latest "Tricks of the Mind" too, available in all good bookshops. It goes beyond just magic into general skepticism, but is an interesting and easy, conversational read.

Senex · 19th June 2007, 10:45 AM

Banacek, Copperfield and Blaine have different styles: mentalism, stage and close-up/physical stunts respectively. I'm uncertain what a "skeptic-type magician" is. Is he a Scooby-Doo type magician/bebunker/detective or a simple magician who doesn't believe in things that can't be proven just as the magicians on this site are? I don't believe these three magicians have any theories that link them except, perhaps, the best way to routine a performance.

Jon White's suggestion about the Derren Brown books intrigue me. We all know Derren Brown is no more magical than we are, but I've watched some of his performances on YouTube and am clueless on how he performs a few affects. When he gets a person "he just met" to turn in a losing ticket at a horse race to a 'random" window and collect what the winning ticket would have won because his new found friend "told" the clerk it was a winning ticket -- I am bamboozled. If you look at the replies on Youtube people will say Brown is the master of Ericksonian hypnotism or neural linguistic programming. I've watched other tricks he has done that used NLP as a red herring and know what methods he really used. One performance he gave on the underground was making people forget what stop they were to get off. He did indeed use a technique I have read can be used to make someone forget a card for a few moments that they chose, but I didn't think it could ever work on this level. I've seen him get people on the street to give him their watch and wallet because he asked them for them and then he walked away while they went on their own way less a wallet and watch.

Without giving away any secrets I have used suggestion in performances -- I even used to do a traditional hypnosis act -- but never on the level Brown does. I've watched many of his TV performances and wish to put this question to the people reading this: Does Darren Brown use suggestion to a high level or does he use stooges. It has to be one or the other.

volatile · 19th June 2007, 10:58 AM

Without wanting to derail the thread, a friend of mine was on one of Derren Brown's shows. Whilst the way the show was broadcast implied she was a random passer-by, she had actually been to a pre-screening where the most 'suitable' participants (whatever that might mean) were selected through a variety of means.

That's not to say that he "cheats" - my friend insists that she wasn't a stooge and the trick performed on her, which involved generating fear of a simple rock, if I recall correctly, was performed as televised. It's just that the people he picks "at random" might not always be as random as the TV editing implies.

Brown · 19th June 2007, 11:00 AM

You might want to consider The Truth About Uri Geller, by James Randi.

There are some magical "secrets" given away in the book, but most of them are crap. Indeed, that is sort of the point of the book: Uri's tricks were mostly crap. They were, to a large extent, long on showmanship and short on technical ability. Many of Randi's tricks, which were as good as if not better than Geller's, were crap, too; but Randi readily admits as much.

Some of Geller's tricks were fairly sophisticated and had widespread commercial potential, with Geller typically employing techniques used by professional magicians. Randi keeps these secrets to himself and does not expose them in his book.

Despite some fairly legitimate trickery that Geller tried to pass off as genuine, most of Geller's repertoire was crap.

But so many were taken in by this dude (and quite a few continue to be taken in by him). If so many of his tricks were crap, why were so many folks convinced his seemingly supernatural abilities were authentic?

Randi goes into the psychology behind the act, focusing on the mindsets of those who were convinced of Geller's authenticity, and how Geller deliberately cultivated such mindsets.

There's a lot going on: Some folks are convinced that they are so smart that they cannot be fooled. Some folks are so eager to find "proof" of the extraordinary that they consciously or unconsciously rig (or fail to properly control) their experiments. Some folks think they are "good judges" of people, and Geller seemed legitimate to them.

And many, many people were exceedingly reluctant to admit that they had made a mistake or had been duped or had been fooled by a trick--and a crappy trick at that.

Cain · 19th June 2007, 11:29 AM

Quote:

I'm not so much interested in exactly how they do their tricks but more the theory behind them in general.

This could mean several things. Most importantly I do not think you can neatly separate "how" a trick is done from the "theory," or psychology, behind it, especially in the case of mentalism. How is a spoon bent? There's a simple answer that describes exactly how a magician bends a spoon. It takes quite a bit more ink to explain how a magician fools an audience into believing she's bending a spoon using her mind. The simple answer, which is what many lay people will mistake for "the secret," is almost completely worthless. Magicians will often refer to the touches, subtleties and psychology as the "real work." These secrets are jealously guarded. Or they used to be.

JonWhite · 19th June 2007, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Senex

We all know Derren Brown is no more magical than we are...

In terms of his magic/mentalism/misdirection/etc I think he's probably a great deal more "magical"

Originally Posted by Senex

Does Darren Brown use suggestion to a high level or does he use stooges

...or as volatile says, perhaps it's the other way round - rather he pre-selects the subjects at a level most highly receptive and susceptible to his manipulations/suggestions/effect requirements (such as all stage "hypnotists" do). That still doesn't make them stooges.

If you can get your paws on his earlier books, for magicians they're well worth a read.

firecoins · 19th June 2007, 12:57 PM

theory based books are best.

there are great books by a guy named Ascenio, others include Barry Richardson, Max Maven has a booklet out on the magician's choice. I can't remeber the names of the book for some reason but I have them at home.

JonWhite · 19th June 2007, 01:06 PM

Tommy Wonder's "Books of Wonder" (particularly volume 1) are excellent essays on the theory of magic as an art form.

Senex · 19th June 2007, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by JonWhite

In terms of his magic/mentalism/misdirection/etc I think he's probably a great deal more "magical"

...or as volatile says, perhaps it's the other way round - rather he pre-selects the subjects at a level most highly receptive and susceptible to his manipulations/suggestions/effect requirements (such as all stage "hypnotists" do). That still doesn't make them stooges.

If you can get your paws on his earlier books, for magicians they're well worth a read.

Yes, I will get my paws on those books, and not just for magical reaons -- I will use those volumes to pre-select the woman I date. I may be a skeptic in religion and philosophy, but when it comes to girls I'll put put his book right next to my invaluable collection of pheromones

JonWhite · 19th June 2007, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Senex

Yes, I will get my paws on those books, and not just for magical reaons -- I will use those volumes to pre-select the woman I date. I may be a skeptic in religion and philosophy, but when it comes to girls I'll put put his book right next to my invaluable collection of pheromones

I'm not sure those books are gonna help you there I'm afraid. Any girls are gonna think you're pretty strange (or even stranger?) if you start putting them through suggestibility tests before you date them!

Bob Klase · 20th June 2007, 10:07 AM

There is a great deal written about theory. Unfortunately most of it is scattered about in books that deal mainly with method and other facets.

Although I'm not sure if any of these might really cover what you're looking for, there are some books that deal almost entirely with theory.

Strong Magic by Darwin Ortiz: Probably not quite what you want, but that's okay since it's been out of print for a while and is difficult to find (and usually expensive if you find it).

Designing Miracles by Darwin Ortiz: I haven't read it, but based on the reviews and ads it may be something like what you want. It's widely available for around $45 from magic dealers such as:

http://www.hanklee.org/xcart/product.php?productid=8626

Also a copy on ebay at the moment for $37.95 with free shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DESIGNING-MIRACL...QQcmdZViewItem

One other book which I have not read but (based on ads and reviews) I think might be more of what you want is 'Magic in Theory'. You can find this on Amazon.com and other places for around $15.

18th June 2007, 11:56 PM	#1
the_snowpooch New Blood Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3	Question for magicians Hey there. I'm a writer, not a magician. I've been tinkering with the idea of a skeptic-type magician as a character and was wondering if someone could direct me to some reference sources (books or websites). I'm primarily interested in menatlism (ALA Banacek) and new style stuff like Copperfield/Blaine. I'm not so much interested in exactly how they do their tricks but more the theory behind them in general. There's a lot of stuff out there and I figured you guys would know which are the best. Thanks in advance for your help.
the_snowpooch New Blood Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3

19th June 2007, 07:25 AM	#2
Dinsdale Piranha A cruel man, but fair. Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In the conversation pit. Posts: 842	I'm not much into mentalism either, but along with Banachek, Ian Rowland is the next name that comes to mind. Of particular interest would probably be his Full Facts Book of Cold Reading found on his website: http://www.ianrowland.com/
	__________________ "Don't hit me with them negative waves this early in the morning." Oddball from Kelly's Heroes. "I almost had a psychic girlfriend, but she left me before we met." Steven Wright

19th June 2007, 08:57 AM	#3
Stir Anarchist In The System Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Plaza of Dark Delights, Lankhmar Posts: 171	Snowp: You're asking a rather ambiguous question. There is a lot of literature on magic, covering it from many, many perspectives. Dinsdale has recommended an excellent book, very valuable if you want to either perform or understand cold reading, but I get the impression what you're after is information useful in creating a fictional magician character. That's going to be moderately difficult to do well without an in depth knowledge of magic ... but a starting point might be to read some other fiction which includes a magician ... and there's a lot of it (much of it very bad). I'd recommend Clayton Rawson's books as a good start.
	__________________ For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. -H.L.Mencken ... if I have been wrong in my agnosticism, when I die I'll walk up to God in a manly way and say, Sir, I made an honest mistake -H.L.Mencken

19th June 2007, 09:19 AM	#4
JonWhite Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Posts: 603	Derren Brown has a couple of trade books called "Absolute Magic" and "Pure Effect". The latter does include a few effects, but both are mostly his thinking on the theory and creation of the magic art that may be the kind of thing you're looking for. They're a little difficult to get hold of though. You could check out his latest "Tricks of the Mind" too, available in all good bookshops. It goes beyond just magic into general skepticism, but is an interesting and easy, conversational read.
	__________________ "In cases where prior knowledge is available, the alternative to 'an open mind' is not 'a closed mind'. It is 'an informed mind'. In such contexts, any appeal to 'keep an open mind' is an appeal to prefer ignorance over knowledge" Ian Rowland Last edited by JonWhite; 19th June 2007 at 09:49 AM.

19th June 2007, 10:58 AM	#6
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,322	Without wanting to derail the thread, a friend of mine was on one of Derren Brown's shows. Whilst the way the show was broadcast implied she was a random passer-by, she had actually been to a pre-screening where the most 'suitable' participants (whatever that might mean) were selected through a variety of means. That's not to say that he "cheats" - my friend insists that she wasn't a stooge and the trick performed on her, which involved generating fear of a simple rock, if I recall correctly, was performed as televised. It's just that the people he picks "at random" might not always be as random as the TV editing implies.
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'.

19th June 2007, 10:45 AM	#5
Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,835	Banacek, Copperfield and Blaine have different styles: mentalism, stage and close-up/physical stunts respectively. I'm uncertain what a "skeptic-type magician" is. Is he a Scooby-Doo type magician/bebunker/detective or a simple magician who doesn't believe in things that can't be proven just as the magicians on this site are? I don't believe these three magicians have any theories that link them except, perhaps, the best way to routine a performance. Jon White's suggestion about the Derren Brown books intrigue me. We all know Derren Brown is no more magical than we are, but I've watched some of his performances on YouTube and am clueless on how he performs a few affects. When he gets a person "he just met" to turn in a losing ticket at a horse race to a 'random" window and collect what the winning ticket would have won because his new found friend "told" the clerk it was a winning ticket -- I am bamboozled. If you look at the replies on Youtube people will say Brown is the master of Ericksonian hypnotism or neural linguistic programming. I've watched other tricks he has done that used NLP as a red herring and know what methods he really used. One performance he gave on the underground was making people forget what stop they were to get off. He did indeed use a technique I have read can be used to make someone forget a card for a few moments that they chose, but I didn't think it could ever work on this level. I've seen him get people on the street to give him their watch and wallet because he asked them for them and then he walked away while they went on their own way less a wallet and watch. Without giving away any secrets I have used suggestion in performances -- I even used to do a traditional hypnosis act -- but never on the level Brown does. I've watched many of his TV performances and wish to put this question to the people reading this: Does Darren Brown use suggestion to a high level or does he use stooges. It has to be one or the other.

19th June 2007, 11:00 AM	#7
Brown Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 9,117	You might want to consider The Truth About Uri Geller, by James Randi. There are some magical "secrets" given away in the book, but most of them are crap. Indeed, that is sort of the point of the book: Uri's tricks were mostly crap. They were, to a large extent, long on showmanship and short on technical ability. Many of Randi's tricks, which were as good as if not better than Geller's, were crap, too; but Randi readily admits as much. Some of Geller's tricks were fairly sophisticated and had widespread commercial potential, with Geller typically employing techniques used by professional magicians. Randi keeps these secrets to himself and does not expose them in his book. Despite some fairly legitimate trickery that Geller tried to pass off as genuine, most of Geller's repertoire was crap. But so many were taken in by this dude (and quite a few continue to be taken in by him). If so many of his tricks were crap, why were so many folks convinced his seemingly supernatural abilities were authentic? Randi goes into the psychology behind the act, focusing on the mindsets of those who were convinced of Geller's authenticity, and how Geller deliberately cultivated such mindsets. There's a lot going on: Some folks are convinced that they are so smart that they cannot be fooled. Some folks are so eager to find "proof" of the extraordinary that they consciously or unconsciously rig (or fail to properly control) their experiments. Some folks think they are "good judges" of people, and Geller seemed legitimate to them. And many, many people were exceedingly reluctant to admit that they had made a mistake or had been duped or had been fooled by a trick--and a crappy trick at that.
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

19th June 2007, 11:29 AM	#8
Cain Contrarian Join Date: May 2002 Location: S. California Posts: 3,958	Quote: I'm not so much interested in exactly how they do their tricks but more the theory behind them in general. This could mean several things. Most importantly I do not think you can neatly separate "how" a trick is done from the "theory," or psychology, behind it, especially in the case of mentalism. How is a spoon bent? There's a simple answer that describes exactly how a magician bends a spoon. It takes quite a bit more ink to explain how a magician fools an audience into believing she's bending a spoon using her mind. The simple answer, which is what many lay people will mistake for "the secret," is almost completely worthless. Magicians will often refer to the touches, subtleties and psychology as the "real work." These secrets are jealously guarded. Or they used to be.
	__________________ Well, well, well. If it ain't the serious, elusive Leroy Green. I've been waitin' a long time for this, Leroy. I am sick of hearin' these ***** Superman stories about the "wassah" legendary Bruce Leroy catchin' bullets with his teeth. Catches bullets with his teeth?! ***** pleeze.

19th June 2007, 11:57 AM	#9
JonWhite Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Posts: 603	Originally Posted by Senex We all know Derren Brown is no more magical than we are... In terms of his magic/mentalism/misdirection/etc I think he's probably a great deal more "magical" Originally Posted by Senex Does Darren Brown use suggestion to a high level or does he use stooges ...or as volatile says, perhaps it's the other way round - rather he pre-selects the subjects at a level most highly receptive and susceptible to his manipulations/suggestions/effect requirements (such as all stage "hypnotists" do). That still doesn't make them stooges. If you can get your paws on his earlier books, for magicians they're well worth a read.
	__________________ "In cases where prior knowledge is available, the alternative to 'an open mind' is not 'a closed mind'. It is 'an informed mind'. In such contexts, any appeal to 'keep an open mind' is an appeal to prefer ignorance over knowledge" Ian Rowland Last edited by JonWhite; 19th June 2007 at 12:26 PM.

19th June 2007, 12:57 PM	#10
firecoins Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nyack, NY Posts: 3,065	theory based books are best. there are great books by a guy named Ascenio, others include Barry Richardson, Max Maven has a booklet out on the magician's choice. I can't remeber the names of the book for some reason but I have them at home.
	__________________ NY Paramedic, skeptic, 9/11/01 Reality-ist. I am both right wing nut and left wing lunatic. Deal with it.

19th June 2007, 01:06 PM	#11
JonWhite Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Posts: 603	Tommy Wonder's "Books of Wonder" (particularly volume 1) are excellent essays on the theory of magic as an art form.
	__________________ "In cases where prior knowledge is available, the alternative to 'an open mind' is not 'a closed mind'. It is 'an informed mind'. In such contexts, any appeal to 'keep an open mind' is an appeal to prefer ignorance over knowledge" Ian Rowland

19th June 2007, 01:33 PM	#12
Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,835	Originally Posted by JonWhite In terms of his magic/mentalism/misdirection/etc I think he's probably a great deal more "magical" ...or as volatile says, perhaps it's the other way round - rather he pre-selects the subjects at a level most highly receptive and susceptible to his manipulations/suggestions/effect requirements (such as all stage "hypnotists" do). That still doesn't make them stooges. If you can get your paws on his earlier books, for magicians they're well worth a read. Yes, I will get my paws on those books, and not just for magical reaons -- I will use those volumes to pre-select the woman I date. I may be a skeptic in religion and philosophy, but when it comes to girls I'll put put his book right next to my invaluable collection of pheromones

19th June 2007, 02:06 PM	#13
JonWhite Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Posts: 603	Originally Posted by Senex Yes, I will get my paws on those books, and not just for magical reaons -- I will use those volumes to pre-select the woman I date. I may be a skeptic in religion and philosophy, but when it comes to girls I'll put put his book right next to my invaluable collection of pheromones I'm not sure those books are gonna help you there I'm afraid. Any girls are gonna think you're pretty strange (or even stranger?) if you start putting them through suggestibility tests before you date them!
	__________________ "In cases where prior knowledge is available, the alternative to 'an open mind' is not 'a closed mind'. It is 'an informed mind'. In such contexts, any appeal to 'keep an open mind' is an appeal to prefer ignorance over knowledge" Ian Rowland

20th June 2007, 10:07 AM	#14
Bob Klase Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Largo, FL Posts: 2,445	There is a great deal written about theory. Unfortunately most of it is scattered about in books that deal mainly with method and other facets. Although I'm not sure if any of these might really cover what you're looking for, there are some books that deal almost entirely with theory. Strong Magic by Darwin Ortiz: Probably not quite what you want, but that's okay since it's been out of print for a while and is difficult to find (and usually expensive if you find it). Designing Miracles by Darwin Ortiz: I haven't read it, but based on the reviews and ads it may be something like what you want. It's widely available for around $45 from magic dealers such as: http://www.hanklee.org/xcart/product.php?productid=8626 Also a copy on ebay at the moment for $37.95 with free shipping. http://cgi.ebay.com/DESIGNING-MIRACL...QQcmdZViewItem One other book which I have not read but (based on ads and reviews) I think might be more of what you want is 'Magic in Theory'. You can find this on Amazon.com and other places for around $15.