The Giza Funerary Temples of the Pyramids & the (Golden) Φ-Ratio

[Jiri]

The controversy over the discovery of Φ-ratio being designed into the Great Pyramid of Giza has raged for hundreds of years by now. The preponderant stance of Egyptologis and historians is that this is probably accidental, as ancient Egypt is not in general considered that mathematically advanced, especially not in IV. dynasty. The discovery of Φ-ratio is given to the Greeks.
One would think that someone would check next door to the Great Pyramid, for there we have remains of the pyramidal temples, one for each of the three great pyramids. Since these temples have their architectural plans, it seems natural to check those plans for rational order. I did so, basing on diagrams appearing in "The Pyramids of Egypt" by J.E.S. Edwards, who compiled them from research done on the ruins by J.P. Lauer, U. Holscher and Col. H. Vyse.

http://www.vejprty.com/pt.htm


The Φ-proportion (1.6180339887..) abounds in the architectural floor-plans of all three Giza pyramid temples!

I have made this graphically obvious by superposing the relevant geometry over the digrams of the temples. Now, I am on the horns of a dilemma - these geometrical facts are so plainly evident, I don't imagine that my findings will be easily dismissed. Yet, these facts were discoverable with such ease, I can't imagine no one has stumbled over them until now. But, this should have caused some stir since these facts have decisive import on the above mentioned matter of Φ's presence in the design of the G.P. being accidental or not.
Still, all my searches into this topic have turned up an absolute zero! In any case, I am glad to have discovered these facts for myself. If the facts have been supressed previously, or became victim of "auto-censorship" I don't know. What I do know is that the issue over incorporation of Φ in the design of the Great Pyramid is now effectively settled. Φ is the dominant principle of the satellite temples, and is obviously there intentionally, so the same architect(s) must have known what went into the grand design.


Having put my findings onto the web, I came straight here. Randi's is a perfect place to discuss one's discovery in some domain that's guaranteed to cause controversy, or consternation, but mayhem is guaranteed. What do you guys think?

[ilikefrogs]

If all the pyramids are scaled versions of each other, then of course they would all have the Golden Ratio. Where you would make your reputation is if you could PROVE the ancient Egyptians did it on purpose

[Zep]

I'd be VERY curious, Jiri. WHICH parts of the pyramids did you actually measure? Please be precise in this - it's important.

[ReligionStudent]

Hand drawn maps again?
and you still have to show intent and agency if you believe the golden ratio is there. You have failed to do so.

[supercorgi]

What the heck is Φ-ratio? Are you talking about the Golden Mean?

[Apathia]

Give us the Golden Ratio in sunflowers. That's more interesting. I love sunflowers!

[jsfisher]

By the way, Jiri, you've been away for a while. Welcome back.

[Jiri]

Originally Posted by ilikefrogs

If all the pyramids are scaled versions of each other, then of course they would all have the Golden Ratio. Where you would make your reputation is if you could PROVE the ancient Egyptians did it on purpose

And if they are not all scaled versions of each other? What was I talking about? If you don't know then you are just a scaled version of a scaled version -but of what?

[Jiri]

Originally Posted by Zep

I'd be VERY curious, Jiri. WHICH parts of the pyramids did you actually measure? Please be precise in this - it's important.

It is very important to read past the first paragraph, if there is more than one, which you obviously did not, if we want to make educated sounding comments on what we did not read

[Jiri]

Originally Posted by ReligionStudent

Hand drawn maps again?
and you still have to show intent and agency if you believe the golden ratio is there. You have failed to do so.

What hand drawn maps?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

After photocopying a number of illustrations from books about Ancient Egypt in the local library, I took them home and scanned into my computer. Measuring a number of circles that appear in these pictures (and making slight adjustments for perspective) I have concluded that the AEs knew Pi to a value of 3.1459, more or less.

[ReligionStudent]

Originally Posted by Jiri

What hand drawn maps?

The images you link to are not the real images.

[Jiri]

Originally Posted by ReligionStudent

The images you link to are not the real images.

Ah, so Edwards did not use the real images of things under discussion in his books? That's a novel approach. Pray tell us what relation these images I scanned into CAD have to the real images?

[ReligionStudent]

I would like to know what relaition these images you scanned into CAD have to do with the actual places.

[Zep]

Originally Posted by Jiri

It is very important to read past the first paragraph, if there is more than one, which you obviously did not, if we want to make educated sounding comments on what we did not read

That is not an answer. I'll repeat the question for you, and underline the relevant stuff:

Which parts of the pyramids did you actually measure? Please be precise in this - it's important.

[Jiri]

Originally Posted by ilikefrogs

If all the pyramids are scaled versions of each other, then of course they would all have the Golden Ratio. Where you would make your reputation is if you could PROVE the ancient Egyptians did it on purpose

At least you recognize that the Φ-ratio was built into the Great Pyramid. What you don't recognize is that You just saw the proof that it was done on purpose. Φ-ratio dominates the floor-plan of each of the three pyramid temples. This architecture abounds with Φ to the degree, where I can reconstruct the main features of these temples in scaled models relying on basic Φ constructions, and without writing down any numbers. Could anyone else do the same? Not without using the same method. The Φ proportioning occurs so many times in the temples' plans, it becomes their essence. To have Φ as a regular feature it has to be constructed. Employing Φ-designs in architectural plans on a regular basis requires the knowledge thereof.
That's the pudding. :You can't have the proof and not eat the pudding.

[ReligionStudent]

can you show this is not the same as your old trick of finding values all throughout pictures that were never put ther intentionally?

[Jiri]

Originally Posted by Zep

That is not an answer. I'll repeat the question for you, and underline the relevant stuff:

Which parts of the pyramids did you actually measure? Please be precise in this - it's important.

Where did you get an impression, we were talking about pyramids? The topic is _____________, please, fill in the blank from the thread's name.
Looks like you will have to rephrase your already suspect question.

[Jiri]

Originally Posted by ReligionStudent

can you show this is not the same as your old trick of finding values all throughout pictures that were never put ther intentionally?

When you stop loading your questions..

[Jiri]

Originally Posted by ReligionStudent

I would like to know what relaition these images you scanned into CAD have to do with the actual places.

How strange, you just claimed that these images are not images of the given temples' ground-plans. So, you know better, don't you?

[ReligionStudent]

Originally Posted by Jiri

How strange, you just claimed that these images are not images of the given temples' ground-plans. So, you know better, don't you?

No my qustion is why measure these hand drawn pictures instead of origionals. You have never ever answered such a question.

[Jiri]

Originally Posted by ReligionStudent

No my qustion is why measure these hand drawn pictures instead of origionals. You have never ever answered such a question.

But these are not hand-drawn pictures. They are pictures of the plans Edwards produced from the scientific data available to him from all the previous researches on the site. Of course, if you finance it, we could go and remeasure what's available, what with Zahi Hawass on our back.

[Jiri]

.. and I have answered such questions..

[Zep]

Originally Posted by Jiri

Where did you get an impression, we were talking about pyramids? The topic is _____________, please, fill in the blank from the thread's name.
Looks like you will have to rephrase your already suspect question.

OK, I'll rephrase it as you wish.

Which parts of the three Giza pyramid temples did you actually measure? Please be precise in this - it's important.



Incidentally, your OP did happen to waffle on a LOT about the Pyramids and stuff, not the temples. Since I did read that OP, is it any wonder I was misled by what you meant?

[ReligionStudent]

You were looking for Phi and drew a bunch of rectangles (others could easily have been drawn withouth the phi ratio) why should we believe it is the AE's agency and not yours?

[Crossbow]

'Jiri':

I request that you answer the following four questions.

1) Did you actually go to Egypt and take any measurements of the Giza Funerary Temples?

2) If not, then where did you get your data on the Giza Funerary Temples?

3) Did you actually go to Egypt and take any measurements of the Pyramids?

4) If not, then where did you get your data on the Pyramids?

Thank you!

[Molinaro]

Here we go again.

1) You have an outermost square that is blue on the top edge, red on the left, pink on the right, and teal accross the bottom. The top of that square is not positioned in relation to any part of the underlying temple diagram.

2) The top centre of that square is intersected with a large green circular arc. Left left and right intersection points of that arc are highlighted by you with a yellow circle where they meet the left red and right pink edges of the big square. Those intersection points and the green horizontal line between them does not align with anything in the underlying temple diagram.

3) That horizontal green line is then used as the bottom edge of the of the rectangular areas above that you've colored green, yellow, white and blue -- going from left to right. Since that green line was arbitrarily positioned, so are those squares.


See what I'm getting at yet? You've place many of your intersection points in completely arbitrary places -- with respect to the underlying diagram -- purposely to give yourself your desired phi ratios.

If you realy want to get anyone here to give any credit to what you are saying I suggest that you do the following:


Start by showing us a picture with no lines added by you.
Then show a picture with the 1st addition by you.
Justify that addition.

Then we can go onto your next line/arc, one at a time.

Ok?

[andyandy]

Let's just say that the pyramids do follow the golden ratio....so what? The ancient babylonians knew about calculating square roots through iteration - and it's not therefore much of a stretch to assume that the golden ratio was calculated using similar means. It's also not much of a stretch to give them credit for noticing the applicability of the ratio in natural measurements - and given the times, ascribing to a notion that this was some sort of "divine" ratio - thus incorporating the ratio into their pyramid designs....

would it be such a surprise and why should it matter if the pyramids follow such a ratio?

[ReligionStudent]

Well, there is no evidence that they knew about the golden ratio during the 4th dynasty, when they did not have wheeled vehicles and were primarily still using lithics. Were there actual evidence that they purposefully used it in construction of the pyramids, it would be a big thing.

The issue is that all measurments that have to date claimed to illustrate such have not been in agreement and have been arbitrary, most likely reflecting modern agency and not ancient Egyptian agency.

[jsfisher]

I have a simple request, Jiri: Please, for the sake of all that is Mathematics, stop saying "Φ-Ratio". You can call it "golden ratio" or "golden section" or (my personal favorite) just plain old "phi", aka Φ. Ok?

Nothing erodes ones credibility in a subject quite like not even knowing the correct name for the subject.

[phildonnia]

Originally Posted by Jiri

The Φ-proportion (1.6180339887..) abounds in the architectural floor-plans of all three Giza pyramid temples!

You would have to measure the height of the great pyramid to within 69 nanometers to get this kind of accuracy. Far less, if you're measuring something smaller like the height of a doorway.

Pretty good for an old and eroded structure that's clearly missing parts of its facade.

[Big Les]

What is the deal with this golden section BS? I have little time for the Ancient Egyptian and Neolithic claims in that regard, but was it really that important to (say) medieval church builders? Was it seen as somehow spiritual, or just a mathematical/architectural ideal?

I assume these attempts to associate just about everything with the golden mean are related to some New Agey spiritulism/esoterica, but it's hard to separate the fact from the woo.

[Jiri]

Well, Molinaro, you've chased me out of here for a while. Unfortunately I had to agree with your criticism of the very first diagram on my webpage, so I went back and looked at everything again critically. There was much to do - searching my soul, and the web in the next few weeks, as well as editing the article,
http://www.vejprty.com/pt.htm
and all that kept me away from here. Talking about the thing here would drive people to my site, but since it wasn't ready, i kept quiet.
Now, you can review the article again. In my opinion, it gives very strong proof that the golden rectangle is absolutely dominant in the design of all three temples standing right by the great pyramids. This is especially evident in the Khephren's pyramid temple. There is a surprisingly accurate golden rectangle for every major wall line there.
You asked me to present all this to you step by step. Well, in diagram 12 you can check the presence of unbelievably many coaxial golden rectangles in one large temple wide rectangle encompassing the courtyard. Step by step, you encounter one on almost every step. Like I said - Total Dominance of Φ in the design!

[Anacoluthon64]

Jiri, you ought to read this. It might clear up a few things for you.

'Luthon64

[Zep]

That was written 50 years ago too, Jiri. So it has been readily accessible for some time...

[steenkh]

It is curious, but when I look at Jiri's drawings, I only see completely arbitrarily placed lines. The often seem completely disconnected from features on the buildings, and when not, those features seem arbitrarily chosen.

I would suggest that by the same methods, it would be possible to find practically any ratio or constant in every building of the world.

By the way, Zep, did you say 50 years? That is a multiple of the sacred pyramidal number, this unique fiveness that Gardner explains in the article. Surely, that cannot be coincidental?

[Oualawouzou]

Guys, guys, guys, let's not lose sight of the important thing.

Jiri actually admitted he was mistaken about something. Sure, he went back and replaced the mistake with something just as egregious, but he actually admitted to being wrong about something. To the best of my knowledge, this was unheard of and undreamed of before yesterday.

[Molinaro]

Originally Posted by Jiri

Well, Molinaro, you've chased me out of here for a while. Unfortunately I had to agree with your criticism of the very first diagram on my webpage, so I went back and looked at everything again critically. There was much to do - searching my soul, and the web in the next few weeks, as well as editing the article,
http://www.vejprty.com/pt.htm
and all that kept me away from here. Talking about the thing here would drive people to my site, but since it wasn't ready, i kept quiet.
Now, you can review the article again. In my opinion, it gives very strong proof that the golden rectangle is absolutely dominant in the design of all three temples standing right by the great pyramids. This is especially evident in the Khephren's pyramid temple. There is a surprisingly accurate golden rectangle for every major wall line there.
You asked me to present all this to you step by step. Well, in diagram 12 you can check the presence of unbelievably many coaxial golden rectangles in one large temple wide rectangle encompassing the courtyard. Step by step, you encounter one on almost every step. Like I said - Total Dominance of Φ in the design!

Thanks for coming back and saying this Jiri. People making extraordinary claims here don't always get polite responses. That's mainly because objections and questions are usualy evaded, or outright ignored. I'm very glad to see that you not only understood my questions, but you went off and gave it some serious thought!

I havn't again looked at your site yet, but I most certainly will do so.

Anyone who demonstrates an abiltity and willingness to discuss objections are always welcome here.

[Jiri]

Originally Posted by ReligionStudent

Well, there is no evidence that they knew about the golden ratio during the 4th dynasty, when they did not have wheeled vehicles and were primarily still using lithics. Were there actual evidence that they purposefully used it in construction of the pyramids, it would be a big thing.

The issue is that all measurments that have to date claimed to illustrate such have not been in agreement and have been arbitrary, most likely reflecting modern agency and not ancient Egyptian agency.

The three pyramid temples at Giza integrate the idea of Φ in the form of golden rectangles with overwhelming force, or consisteny. I believe that you haven't seen an effect quite like this yet. I am certain that many will agree that this phenomenon constitutes Proof.
Meanwhile, I've done a lot of wobbling on the web, and there seem to be a lot of sites alleging that Φ comes up regularly in ancient Egyptian temples, but none give any specification except:
http://www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles...-geometry.html
Moustafa Gadalla says:"Many Ancient Egyptian plans of temples and tombs, throughout the history of Ancient Egypt, show along their longitudinal axis and transversely, dimensions in cubits of 1.72' (0.523 m), giving “in clear” consecutive terms of the Summation Series 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610,"
and
"There is evidence about the knowledge of the Summation Series, ever since the Pyramid (erroneously known as mortuary) Temple of Khafra (Chephren), at Giza, built in 2500 BCE, i.e. about 3700 years before Fibonacci.

The essential points of the temple [shown herein] comply with the Summation Series, which reaches the figure of 233 cubits in its total length, as measured from the pyramid, with TEN consecutive numbers of the series. "

Unfortunately for Gadalla's claim, only two of these ten consecutive levels vertically up the temple work, the 34, and 55 cubits levels, if we take the width of the temple to be 89 cubits. The others are too far off for my own standards. The 34 cubit level is also nicely divided in half.
Naturally, the level 55 cubits going west into the temple creates the golden rectangle with the temple's breadth.
I am not sure who had authored these observations as the site asks you to re-discover. I wonder if it is Schawaller de Lubicz, whose analysis of Egyptian gates Gadalla also mention.
With the info on Φ in the ancient temples of Egypt being so scarce, I don't mind discoveving the facts for myself. Today, for instance, I imported a diagram of the valley temple of Khafre into CAD for geometrical testing. Guess what? The valley temple belies none of the ideas of its sibling temple nearer the pyramid! This took me by surprise, I must admit, the second pyramid temple instilled many expectations in me. Aw well..
At any rate, I'd love to check Lubicz's work, but it does not seem readily available. Exactly, how much of his geometrical analysis is suppressed?

[Jiri]

Originally Posted by Anacoluthon64

Jiri, you ought to read this. It might clear up a few things for you.

'Luthon64

Promptly, I rushed off expecting to see an analysis of a temple's architecture for Φ in some respect, such as presence of an inordinate number of co-ordinated golden rectangles. Instead, what do I find? A recount of pyramidology, which has nothing to do with my factual work. How divorced from reality can you get?