100% Proof Islamic Threat is Overblown

Thunder · 2nd July 2007, 02:24 PM

There are millions of Muslems in the USA. Nothing has blown up since 2001. If they really wanted to, and if there were a sizeable number of extremists, something would have blown up by now.

There are millions of Muslems in Great Britain. Last week some fools tried to blow up 3 cars filled with camping gas canisters and gasoline. 4 Muslems blew up trains and a bus in 2005.

There are hundreds of thousands of Muslems in Spain. 4 trains blew up. Nothing blew up since then.

If there are soooo many Muslem extremists...and soo many Muslems who want to blow themselves up..where the hell are all the explosions?

I guess one could argue they are all going to Iraq and Afghanistan..or they are all secretly in hiding, waiting for the moment to strike with thousands of bombs all at the same time.

It just doesnt add up. If Islamic extremism was so widespread, there are more then enough Muslems in the West to make things blow up left and right. But it just hasn't happening.

This is the best evidence that I can see, that the Islamic militant threat is total hype and no substance.

Even 9-11, only involved maybe 25 Muslems. 25 Muslems out of 1.4 billion.

If anything, if you look at the number of Muslem terrorist attacks in comparison to the number of Muslems worldwide, they seem to be a pretty peaceful people.

Pardalis · 2nd July 2007, 02:28 PM

Already been discussed to death here, here, here, here and here.

Darth Rotor · 2nd July 2007, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

There are millions of Muslems in the USA. Nothing has blown up since 2001. If they really wanted to, and if there were a sizeable number of extremists, something would have blown up by now.

There are millions of Muslems in Great Britain. Last week some fools tried to blow up 3 cars filled with camping gas canisters and gasoline. 4 Muslems blew up trains and a bus in 2005.

There are hundreds of thousands of Muslems in Spain. 4 trains blew up. Nothing blew up since then.

If there are soooo many Muslem extremists...and soo many Muslems who want to blow themselves up..where the hell are all the explosions?

I guess one could argue they are all going to Iraq and Afghanistan..or they are all secretly in hiding, waiting for the moment to strike with thousands of bombs all at the same time.

It just doesnt add up. If Islamic extremism was so widespread, there are more then enough Muslems in the West to make things blow up left and right. But it just hasn't happening.

This is the best evidence that I can see, that the Islamic militant threat is total hype and no substance.

Even 9-11, only involved maybe 25 Muslems. 25 Muslems out of 1.4 billion.

If anything, if you look at the number of Muslem terrorist attacks in comparison to the number of Muslems worldwide, they seem to be a pretty peaceful people.

Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols were two guys out of a population of 250 million Americans. They conspired to blow up the Murrah Building, and they succeeded.

I am trying to understand what point you are trying to make. Technology as it stands now, and knowledge, provides kinetic means out of proportion to numbers.

It isn't the peaceful sheep that anyone needs worry about, it's the wolves in sheeps' clothing.

DR

rtalman · 2nd July 2007, 02:30 PM

You make compelling points, but overblown does not equate to non-existent, and vigilance is still needed, IMO.

Pardalis · 2nd July 2007, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

Even 9-11, only involved maybe 25 Muslems. 25 Muslems out of 1.4 billion.

If anything, if you look at the number of Muslem terrorist attacks in comparison to the number of Muslems worldwide, they seem to be a pretty peaceful people.

Nobody is disputing that most Muslims are peaceful, we're talking about the minority of which are islamic fundamentalists. Nobody said anything about Muslims in general, you seem to be the one to equate the two.

tkingdoll · 2nd July 2007, 02:39 PM

I wouldn't mind without the nuke threat.

Oliver · 2nd July 2007, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Nobody is disputing that most Muslims are peaceful, we're talking about the minority of which are islamic fundamentalists. Nobody said anything about Muslims in general, you seem to be the one to equate the two.

Oh, so your minority-reply within "100% Proof Islamic Threat is Overblown" proves that Parky is right. Nothing to be scared about any more than before 9/11. Thank you for finally agreeing with me. Good night.

Pardalis · 2nd July 2007, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Oh, so your minority-reply within "100% Proof Islamic Threat is Overblown" proves that Parky is right. Nothing to be scared about any more than before 9/11.

I am not scared, I am aware of the threat this minority poses.

rtalman · 2nd July 2007, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Nothing to be scared about any more than before 9/11.

Mayhap a little fear and requisite preparation would have prevented 9/11, rather than the ostrich method applied in the years leading up to 2001.

Darth Rotor · 2nd July 2007, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

I wouldn't mind without the nuke threat.

Why do you hate Pakistan?

DR

Darat · 2nd July 2007, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

...snip...

I am trying to understand what point you are trying to make. Technology as it stands now, and knowledge, provides kinetic means out of proportion to numbers.

...snip...

I heard a good discussion today on the radio and it was an academic who was an expert in some security guff making the point that yes it is of course only a very tiny minority that will ever take terrible action but as he summed it up (a slight paraphrase but the key words were his)

"These days it only takes one lone nutter to create a terrible attack but thankfully most nutters can't tie their shoelaces together even with instructions from the internet".

Oliver · 2nd July 2007, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

I am not scared, I am aware of the threat this minority poses.

...to Canada and their nasty Canadian military interventions around the globe.

You're starting to understand, Thank you.

Oh Wait: Don't they have freedoms in Canada, too???

Pardalis · 2nd July 2007, 02:56 PM

Oliver · 2nd July 2007, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

So what? You will find as much sources for the same time period before 9/11. Don't you understand that?

Pardalis · 2nd July 2007, 02:59 PM

And round and round we go.

Cylinder · 2nd July 2007, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

I am not scared, I am aware of the threat this minority poses.

I cannot for the life of me understand (other than in the context of useful idiocy) why certain people cannot distinguish between fear and resolve. I know a wide spectrum of people - literally hundreds that I've discussed Islamist terrorism and its threat to the US. I've only met one person who manifests fear and that person has fear issues to begin with. If people were really afraid of terrorism en masse it would be easy to point to - declining mega-mall sales, plummeting real-estate values in high-profile office buildings, Super Bowl ticket sales, etc...

It just ain't happening.

Oliver · 2nd July 2007, 03:04 PM

Here you go, Pardalis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rist_incidents

Pardalis · 2nd July 2007, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Here you go, Pardalis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rist_incidents

Noticed how many in the later years are islamic fundamentalists, and how many of them are targeting Western countries and interests?

Oliver · 2nd July 2007, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Noticed how many in the later years are islamic fundamentalists, and how many of them are targeting Western countries and interests?

Why do you sound scared or at least worried if you aren't?

Anyway: Here's the report of the
National ~~Communism~~ Counterterrorism Center

Jesus, you must be glad to live on the North-American Continent, REALLY!
http://wits.nctc.gov/reports/crot2006nctcannexfinal.pdf

Pardalis · 2nd July 2007, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Why do you sound scared or at least worried if you aren't?

Because you're clueless.

Quote:

Jesus, you must be glad to live on the North-American Continent, REALLY!
http://wits.nctc.gov/reports/crot2006nctcannexfinal.pdf

Thanks for proving that there is a worldwide terrorism threat.

The last terrorism plots in England and Scotland are showing that we westerners are also a target.

Oliver · 2nd July 2007, 03:36 PM

Source: http://wits.nctc.gov/reports/crot2006nctcannexfinal.pdf

Lethality - Comparison of Fatalities and Incidents by Regions:

Dead - 20,573
Number of attacks - 14,352 !

Fatalities in the Western Hemisphere: 556
Fatalities in the rest of the World: 20,017

Stunning, isn't it?

Oh, and look on page 20-21:

2005: Terror attacks by Islamic Extremist (Sunni) - 23%
2006: Terror attacks by Islamic Extremist (Sunni) - 19%
(Well, that decrease would make a good Propaganda Piece for the "War on Terror", wouldn't it?).

Oliver · 2nd July 2007, 04:18 PM

This is also very interesting:

Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2002: -
Terror-C's in the Middle East 2004: 725
Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2005: 8,262
Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2006: 13,340

Wohooo, we're getting at something with the War on Terror ... let's roll, Baby! /cynicism

Source: http://wits.nctc.gov/

Lonewulf · 2nd July 2007, 04:38 PM

I agree with the OP, and if you read certain poster's posts (BPSCG, or whatever his initials are, comes to mind), there is this perception that Muslims and Arabs in general (especially combined) are a threat -- enough of a threat to be targeted in airports (though that's more based on statistics...). BPSCG made a point earlier that every single Muslim there is enabled or allowed Islamic extremists to do whatever, or somesuch, and because they weren't outspoken or somesuch, they must've wanted it or something. I forget what it was, I just found it trite and boring. Was a while back, I think, too.

Meh, anyways, he'll probably give an explanation of his viewpoint in this thread later on, I'm not fretting about that.

Regardless, .1% of a million people are 1,000 people. If .1% of one million people decided to kill you, and had resources and the ability of anonymity, you'd better be careful...

Pardalis · 2nd July 2007, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Source: http://wits.nctc.gov/reports/crot2006nctcannexfinal.pdf

Dead - 20,573
Number of attacks - 14,352

From the same source:

Quote:

Incident tallies do not, by themselves, provide a complete picture of the magnitude or seriousness of the terrorism challenge confronting a country or region. [...] Moreover, different factors weigh more heavily than others

Quote:

Fatalities in the Western Hemisphere: 556
Fatalities in the rest of the World: 20,017

Stunning, isn't it?

Not news to me.

Originally Posted by Oliver

2005: Terror attacks by Islamic Extremist (Sunni) - 23%
2006: Terror attacks by Islamic Extremist (Sunni) - 19%
(Well, that decrease would make a good Propaganda Piece for the "War on Terror", wouldn't it?).

from the same source:

Quote:

[...]NCTC does not believe that a simple comparison of the total number of incidents from year to year provides a meaningful measure.

Quote:

In many reports, attackers are alledged to be tied to to local or well-known terrorist groups but there is little subsequent reporting that verifies these connections.

This could explain the large amount of "unknown" terrorist perpetrators. For the sake of being accurate and thorough, when they didn't have enough evidence linking a certain group to an attack, they filed it under "unknown". But it's not that big of a stretch of the imagination to figure out who they are in most cases...

Quote:

-According to open-source reports, Sunni terrorist groups, more than any other subnational groups, claimed they have conducted the largest number of incidents with the highest casualty totals.

-Sunni terrorist groups in various countries carried out the same number of high fatality attacks in 2006 [...]but with deadlier results.

Originally Posted by Oliver

This is also very interesting:

Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2002: -
Terror-C's in the Middle East 2004: 725
Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2005: 8,262
Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2006: 13,340

Wohooo, we're getting at something with the War on Terror ... let's roll, Baby! /cynicism

It's no news to anyone that Iraq has become the center of terrorist activity.

IXP · 2nd July 2007, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

Regardless, .1% of a million people are 1,000 people. If .1% of one million people decided to kill you, and had resources and the ability of anonymity, you'd better be careful...

Except that the 1000 people are not trying to kill me, they are trying to kill 300,000,000 of us. That makes me a little less scared.

How many people were trying to kill is in WWII? What kind of weapons did they have (clue, the best in the world, until we came up with the nuke).

I really don't care if the Muslim population of the world is set on world domination. Really. They so far behind in armaments etc. that there is no chance of this happening, and their sole source of funding has peaked and is now running down. I still fear being attacked by a crazed drug addict when I am downtown more than I fear being a victim of a terrorist attack.

IXP

Solus · 2nd July 2007, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by IXP

Except that the 1000 people are not trying to kill me, they are trying to kill 300,000,000 of us. That makes me a little less scared.

How many people were trying to kill is in WWII? What kind of weapons did they have (clue, the best in the world, until we came up with the nuke).

I really don't care if the Muslim population of the world is set on world domination. Really. They so far behind in armaments etc. that there is no chance of this happening, and their sole source of funding has peaked and is now running down. I still fear being attacked by a crazed drug addict when I am downtown more than I fear being a victim of a terrorist attack.

IXP

The whole Muslim population of the world doesn't want to kill anyone. It's just a small minority of extremists. Not world dominating but still a danger to be watched for.

IXP · 2nd July 2007, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Solus

The whole Muslim population of the world doesn't want to kill anyone. It's just a small minority of extremists. Not world dominating but still a danger to be watched for.

Yes, my post was a reducto ad absurdum. Read it as even if the entire Muslim population...

Yes, we should be vigilant, just as we should against all other criminals.

IXP

Darth Rotor · 2nd July 2007, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Solus

The whole Muslim population of the world doesn't want to kill anyone. It's just a small minority of extremists. Not world dominating but still a danger to be watched for.

Your use of the word "Just" betrays a lack of understanding.

Let us postulate 0.1% of all Muslims, or .01% of a billion people.

That's 100,000.

Consider 100,000 Tim McVeys.

At even a 50% success rate, this is not a trivial matter.

The peaceful sheep provide a place for the sharks to swim until they wish to strike. Reference? Mao, revolutionary warfare. They are not stupid, they are the enemy.

One cannot count on the bulk of one's enemy being 'unable to tie their shoes' as the comment was presented.

"These days it only takes one lone nutter to create a terrible attack but thankfully most nutters can't tie their shoelaces together even with instructions from the internet".

Complacency is not helpful. Irrational fear is not helpful. Playing chicken little is not helpful.

Cold, calculating countermeasures are helpful, as is vigilance and sound police/security work.

DR

Corsair 115 · 2nd July 2007, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

...to Canada and their nasty Canadian military interventions around the globe.

You're starting to understand, Thank you.

Oh Wait: Don't they have freedoms in Canada, too???

I don't know, Oliver, you tell me. You do seem to have a penchant for making judgements about the level of democracy when it comes to the United States.

gumboot · 2nd July 2007, 10:42 PM

The OP contains a number of glaring mistake, to my mind.

Firstly it makes the mistake of assuming that the lack of successful terrorist attacks in the west is evidence that there are no Radical Islamic terrorists wanting to carry out such attacks.

This is simply not the case. There have been many attempted attacks. Likewise, there are no doubt many who would carry out such attacks, but lack the means to do so. Finally, and perhaps most significantly, there are a very large number of people who do not wish to carry out such attacks, but support and agree with those that do.

In addition, this assumption fails to take into account the considerable effort by authorities to prevent such attacks.

Secondly, the OP mistakenly assumes that those declaring that Radical Islam is a serious threat are claiming that there are large numbers of Islamic Radicals, and that they comprise a significant percentage of the total Muslim population. Again, there is no reason to assume this. The nature of terrorism is such that a very small number of people can have a very significant effect. A single islamic terrorist could, with a campaign of bombs, bring a fair sized city to a grinding halt.

For an example of how devastating a small group of terrorists can be, I direct you to the Beltway sniper attacks of 2002.

Lastly, the OP assumes that those expressing concern about the threat of radical Islam believe that Radical Islam is an immediate and dire threat to Western Society.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but as someone that does consider Radical Islam a potentially serious threat, I do not consider it to be an immediate threat. The nature of Radical Islam is such that by the time it really is a serious threat (in 10 years, or 20, or 50, or 100) it will be too late to do anything about it.

Radical Islam is a cancer growing inside western society. The threat of Radical Islam is not bombs on trains and buses. It is not hijacked airliners. When the real threat of Radical Islam emerges some time in the next fifty years, they won't need to use bombs and hijackings to get their way. That is the threat of Radical Islam.

-Gumboot

Tony · 2nd July 2007, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

I cannot speak for anyone else, but as someone that does consider Radical Islam a potentially serious threat, I do not consider it to be an immediate threat. The nature of Radical Islam is such that by the time it really is a serious threat (in 10 years, or 20, or 50, or 100) it will be too late to do anything about it.

Ok, then how does the threat posed by radical islam compare to past threats? Is it more serious than Nazi Germany or the USSR?

Quote:

Radical Islam is a cancer growing inside western society. The threat of Radical Islam is not bombs on trains and buses. It is not hijacked airliners.

Then what is it?

Quote:

When the real threat of Radical Islam emerges some time in the next fifty years, they won't need to use bombs and hijackings to get their way. That is the threat of Radical Islam.

Then what will they need to get their way? What is the "real threat" of radical islam that will emerge within the next 50 years?

gumboot · 2nd July 2007, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

Ok, then how does the threat posed by radical islam compare to past threats? Is it more serious than Nazi Germany or the USSR?

That's a pretty difficult question. I think all three threats presented the potential of ultimately destroying Western Civilisation (by replacing it with something else). I also think the threat of Radical Islam is also in some ways much easier to address than Nazism or the USSR. On the other hand, like with the threat of Nazism or the USSR, I think the outcome if the potential threat is totally ignored is about the same.

Originally Posted by Tony

Then what will they need to get their way? What is the "real threat" of radical islam that will emerge?

The real threat is that they will achieve their aims via social revolution in the west. They won't need anything to get their way, because our western political systems and western liberalism offer everything they need.

-Gumboot

Lonewulf · 3rd July 2007, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Your use of the word "Just" betrays a lack of understanding.

Let us postulate 0.1% of all Muslims, or .01% of a billion people.

That's 100,000.

Consider 100,000 Tim McVeys.

No, I'm pretty sure that's 1,000,000 people.

1,000,000,000 * 0.001 = 1,000,000, according to my calculator.

1% of 1 billion people are 10 million...

Oliver · 3rd July 2007, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

*snip* The real threat is that they will achieve their aims via social revolution in the west. They won't need anything to get their way, because our western political systems and western liberalism offer everything they need.

-Gumboot

Said the guy from the country that blindly accepts every self-appointed ~~anti-constitutional cult~~ religion as such. Hilarious.

Oliver · 3rd July 2007, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

I don't know, Oliver, you tell me. You do seem to have a penchant for making judgements about the level of democracy when it comes to the United States.

I tweaked Pardalis nose for his muslim-paranoia in such a peaceful country like Canada.

Estimated Number of Muslims in Canada = 783,700
Number of Muslims in Germany = 3,200,000
Estimated Number of Muslims in New Zealand = 25,000

quixotecoyote · 3rd July 2007, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

No, I'm pretty sure that's 1,000,000 people.

1,000,000,000 * 0.001 = 1,000,000, according to my calculator.

1% of 1 billion people are 10 million...

But I doesn't matter because you can't just go pulling numbers out of thin air like that.

Darth said to figure .1% of all Muslims. Sure enough that's a scary number. But why not say .0000000001%?

I've known people to lose businesses because they've said that even if they only get x customers a day they'll make a profit, but pulled the estimated sales figures out of the air.

gumboot · 3rd July 2007, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Said the guy from the country that blindly accepts every self-appointed ~~anti-constitutional cult~~ religion as such. Hilarious.

Oliver, this may be hard for you to understand, but unlike the Government of Germany, the Government of New Zealand allows its citizens to express any view they like. The Government of New Zealand allows its citizens to practice any religious customs they wish, as long as those practices do not conflict with our laws.

In New Zealand we do not ban something just because we do not agree with what they are saying. That is because New Zealand, unlike Germany, is a free society.

-Gumboot

gumboot · 3rd July 2007, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

I tweaked Pardalis nose for his muslim-paranoia in such a peaceful country like Canada.

Estimated Number of Muslims in Canada = 783,700
Number of Muslims in Germany = 3,200,000
Estimated Number of Muslims in New Zealand = 25,000

There's 36,072 Muslims in New Zealand, according to last year's census.

-Gumboot

Lonewulf · 3rd July 2007, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

Oliver, this may be hard for you to understand, but unlike the Government of Germany, the Government of New Zealand allows its citizens to express any view they like. The Government of New Zealand allows its citizens to practice any religious customs they wish, as long as those practices do not conflict with our laws.

In New Zealand we do not ban something just because we do not agree with what they are saying. That is because New Zealand, unlike Germany, is a free society.

-Gumboot

Oh come on.

Germany is not that bad.

Oliver · 3rd July 2007, 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

*snip* That is because New Zealand, unlike Germany, is a free society.

-Gumboot

Nope, unlike New Zealand, Germany wants to STAY a free society.

2nd July 2007, 02:24 PM	#1
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	100% Proof Islamic Threat is Overblown There are millions of Muslems in the USA. Nothing has blown up since 2001. If they really wanted to, and if there were a sizeable number of extremists, something would have blown up by now. There are millions of Muslems in Great Britain. Last week some fools tried to blow up 3 cars filled with camping gas canisters and gasoline. 4 Muslems blew up trains and a bus in 2005. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslems in Spain. 4 trains blew up. Nothing blew up since then. If there are soooo many Muslem extremists...and soo many Muslems who want to blow themselves up..where the hell are all the explosions? I guess one could argue they are all going to Iraq and Afghanistan..or they are all secretly in hiding, waiting for the moment to strike with thousands of bombs all at the same time. It just doesnt add up. If Islamic extremism was so widespread, there are more then enough Muslems in the West to make things blow up left and right. But it just hasn't happening. This is the best evidence that I can see, that the Islamic militant threat is total hype and no substance. Even 9-11, only involved maybe 25 Muslems. 25 Muslems out of 1.4 billion. If anything, if you look at the number of Muslem terrorist attacks in comparison to the number of Muslems worldwide, they seem to be a pretty peaceful people.

2nd July 2007, 02:28 PM	#3
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by parky76 There are millions of Muslems in the USA. Nothing has blown up since 2001. If they really wanted to, and if there were a sizeable number of extremists, something would have blown up by now. There are millions of Muslems in Great Britain. Last week some fools tried to blow up 3 cars filled with camping gas canisters and gasoline. 4 Muslems blew up trains and a bus in 2005. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslems in Spain. 4 trains blew up. Nothing blew up since then. If there are soooo many Muslem extremists...and soo many Muslems who want to blow themselves up..where the hell are all the explosions? I guess one could argue they are all going to Iraq and Afghanistan..or they are all secretly in hiding, waiting for the moment to strike with thousands of bombs all at the same time. It just doesnt add up. If Islamic extremism was so widespread, there are more then enough Muslems in the West to make things blow up left and right. But it just hasn't happening. This is the best evidence that I can see, that the Islamic militant threat is total hype and no substance. Even 9-11, only involved maybe 25 Muslems. 25 Muslems out of 1.4 billion. If anything, if you look at the number of Muslem terrorist attacks in comparison to the number of Muslems worldwide, they seem to be a pretty peaceful people. Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols were two guys out of a population of 250 million Americans. They conspired to blow up the Murrah Building, and they succeeded. I am trying to understand what point you are trying to make. Technology as it stands now, and knowledge, provides kinetic means out of proportion to numbers. It isn't the peaceful sheep that anyone needs worry about, it's the wolves in sheeps' clothing. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

2nd July 2007, 02:30 PM	#4
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	You make compelling points, but overblown does not equate to non-existent, and vigilance is still needed, IMO.
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	__________________ Re-education Camp Director: What's better than a big juicy steak? Camp Detainees: Nothing is better than a big juicy steak! Re-education Camp Director: And what's better than nothing? Camp Detainees: A stale piece of bread is better than nothing! Re-education Camp Director: Therefore a stale piece of bread is better than a big juicy steak.

2nd July 2007, 02:39 PM	#6
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	I wouldn't mind without the nuke threat.
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

2nd July 2007, 02:41 PM	#7
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Pardalis Nobody is disputing that most Muslims are peaceful, we're talking about the minority of which are islamic fundamentalists. Nobody said anything about Muslims in general, you seem to be the one to equate the two. Oh, so your minority-reply within "100% Proof Islamic Threat is Overblown" proves that Parky is right. Nothing to be scared about any more than before 9/11. Thank you for finally agreeing with me. Good night.
	__________________

2nd July 2007, 02:28 PM	#2
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Already been discussed to death here, here, here, here and here.

2nd July 2007, 02:37 PM	#5
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by parky76 Even 9-11, only involved maybe 25 Muslems. 25 Muslems out of 1.4 billion. If anything, if you look at the number of Muslem terrorist attacks in comparison to the number of Muslems worldwide, they seem to be a pretty peaceful people. Nobody is disputing that most Muslims are peaceful, we're talking about the minority of which are islamic fundamentalists. Nobody said anything about Muslims in general, you seem to be the one to equate the two.

2nd July 2007, 02:42 PM	#8
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Oliver Oh, so your minority-reply within "100% Proof Islamic Threat is Overblown" proves that Parky is right. Nothing to be scared about any more than before 9/11. I am not scared, I am aware of the threat this minority poses.

2nd July 2007, 02:44 PM	#9
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	Originally Posted by Oliver Nothing to be scared about any more than before 9/11. Mayhap a little fear and requisite preparation would have prevented 9/11, rather than the ostrich method applied in the years leading up to 2001.
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	__________________ Re-education Camp Director: What's better than a big juicy steak? Camp Detainees: Nothing is better than a big juicy steak! Re-education Camp Director: And what's better than nothing? Camp Detainees: A stale piece of bread is better than nothing! Re-education Camp Director: Therefore a stale piece of bread is better than a big juicy steak.

2nd July 2007, 02:45 PM	#10
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by tkingdoll I wouldn't mind without the nuke threat. Why do you hate Pakistan? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

2nd July 2007, 02:46 PM	#11
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor ...snip... I am trying to understand what point you are trying to make. Technology as it stands now, and knowledge, provides kinetic means out of proportion to numbers. ...snip... I heard a good discussion today on the radio and it was an academic who was an expert in some security guff making the point that yes it is of course only a very tiny minority that will ever take terrible action but as he summed it up (a slight paraphrase but the key words were his) "These days it only takes one lone nutter to create a terrible attack but thankfully most nutters can't tie their shoelaces together even with instructions from the internet".
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

2nd July 2007, 02:52 PM	#12
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Pardalis I am not scared, I am aware of the threat this minority poses. ...to Canada and their nasty Canadian military interventions around the globe. You're starting to understand, Thank you. Oh Wait: Don't they have freedoms in Canada, too???
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2nd July 2007, 02:56 PM	#13
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	foiled terror attacks since 2001: Probably the biggest one, a plot to simultaneously blow up 10 planes: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...081000152.html 10 plots in the US: http://cnn.websites-blog.com/2006/US...ots/index.html G8 terror attack foiled: http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/ar...076285,00.html In Singapore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapo...es_attack_plot intelligence about dirty bomb and nuclear threats: http://politics.guardian.co.uk/terro...947295,00.html plot foiled in Germany: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_German_train_bombing failed car bombings in Glasgow and London: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...ert/index.html Busted terror cells in Canada: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...d5d6cc&k=46849 http://www.canada.com/national/natio...a-3c8f6009581c plots that did work since 2001: In England: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_...ondon_bombings In Singapore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapo...es_attack_plot In Spain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_Marc...Madrid_attacks In Indonesia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombing In Jordan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Amman_bombings In Tunisia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghriba_Synagogue_Attack In the Philipines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rizal_Day_Bombings In Morocco: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3035803.stm In Gibraltar: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/eu...ing/index.html In Kenya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenyan_hotel_bombing In Saudi Arabia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riyadh_Compound_Bombings In Istambul: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Istanbul_bombings In Egypt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sh...Sheikh_attacks In Algeria: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Algiers_bombings oil tanker bombing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_tanker_bombing

2nd July 2007, 02:58 PM	#14
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Pardalis foiled terror attacks since 2001: Probably the biggest one, a plot to simultaneously blow up 10 planes: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...081000152.html 10 plots in the US: http://cnn.websites-blog.com/2006/US...ots/index.html G8 terror attack foiled: http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/ar...076285,00.html In Singapore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapo...es_attack_plot intelligence about dirty bomb and nuclear threats: http://politics.guardian.co.uk/terro...947295,00.html plot foiled in Germany: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_German_train_bombing failed car bombings in Glasgow and London: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...ert/index.html Busted terror cells in Canada: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...d5d6cc&k=46849 http://www.canada.com/national/natio...a-3c8f6009581c plots that did work since 2001: In England: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_...ondon_bombings In Singapore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapo...es_attack_plot In Spain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_Marc...Madrid_attacks In Indonesia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombing In Jordan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Amman_bombings In Tunisia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghriba_Synagogue_Attack In the Philipines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rizal_Day_Bombings In Morocco: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3035803.stm In Gibraltar: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/eu...ing/index.html In Kenya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenyan_hotel_bombing In Saudi Arabia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riyadh_Compound_Bombings In Istambul: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Istanbul_bombings In Egypt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sh...Sheikh_attacks In Algeria: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Algiers_bombings oil tanker bombing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_tanker_bombing So what? You will find as much sources for the same time period before 9/11. Don't you understand that?
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2nd July 2007, 02:59 PM	#15
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	And round and round we go.

2nd July 2007, 02:59 PM	#16
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,873	Originally Posted by Pardalis I am not scared, I am aware of the threat this minority poses. I cannot for the life of me understand (other than in the context of useful idiocy) why certain people cannot distinguish between fear and resolve. I know a wide spectrum of people - literally hundreds that I've discussed Islamist terrorism and its threat to the US. I've only met one person who manifests fear and that person has fear issues to begin with. If people were really afraid of terrorism en masse it would be easy to point to - declining mega-mall sales, plummeting real-estate values in high-profile office buildings, Super Bowl ticket sales, etc... It just ain't happening.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

2nd July 2007, 03:04 PM	#17
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Here you go, Pardalis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rist_incidents
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2nd July 2007, 03:10 PM	#18
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Oliver Here you go, Pardalis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rist_incidents Noticed how many in the later years are islamic fundamentalists, and how many of them are targeting Western countries and interests?

2nd July 2007, 03:17 PM	#19
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Pardalis Noticed how many in the later years are islamic fundamentalists, and how many of them are targeting Western countries and interests? Why do you sound scared or at least worried if you aren't? Anyway: Here's the report of the National ~~Communism~~ Counterterrorism Center Jesus, you must be glad to live on the North-American Continent, REALLY! http://wits.nctc.gov/reports/crot2006nctcannexfinal.pdf
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2nd July 2007, 03:23 PM	#20
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Oliver Why do you sound scared or at least worried if you aren't? Because you're clueless. Quote: Jesus, you must be glad to live on the North-American Continent, REALLY! http://wits.nctc.gov/reports/crot2006nctcannexfinal.pdf Thanks for proving that there is a worldwide terrorism threat. The last terrorism plots in England and Scotland are showing that we westerners are also a target.

2nd July 2007, 03:36 PM	#21
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Source: http://wits.nctc.gov/reports/crot2006nctcannexfinal.pdf Lethality - Comparison of Fatalities and Incidents by Regions: Dead - 20,573 Number of attacks - 14,352 ! Fatalities in the Western Hemisphere: 556 Fatalities in the rest of the World: 20,017 Stunning, isn't it? Oh, and look on page 20-21: 2005: Terror attacks by Islamic Extremist (Sunni) - 23% 2006: Terror attacks by Islamic Extremist (Sunni) - 19% (Well, that decrease would make a good Propaganda Piece for the "War on Terror", wouldn't it?).
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2nd July 2007, 04:18 PM	#22
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	This is also very interesting: Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2002: - Terror-C's in the Middle East 2004: 725 Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2005: 8,262 Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2006: 13,340 Wohooo, we're getting at something with the War on Terror ... let's roll, Baby! /cynicism Source: http://wits.nctc.gov/
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2nd July 2007, 04:38 PM	#23
Lonewulf Humanistic Cyborg Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 10,380	I agree with the OP, and if you read certain poster's posts (BPSCG, or whatever his initials are, comes to mind), there is this perception that Muslims and Arabs in general (especially combined) are a threat -- enough of a threat to be targeted in airports (though that's more based on statistics...). BPSCG made a point earlier that every single Muslim there is enabled or allowed Islamic extremists to do whatever, or somesuch, and because they weren't outspoken or somesuch, they must've wanted it or something. I forget what it was, I just found it trite and boring. Was a while back, I think, too. Meh, anyways, he'll probably give an explanation of his viewpoint in this thread later on, I'm not fretting about that. Regardless, .1% of a million people are 1,000 people. If .1% of one million people decided to kill you, and had resources and the ability of anonymity, you'd better be careful...
	__________________ Writing.com Account Last edited by Lonewulf; 2nd July 2007 at 04:41 PM.

2nd July 2007, 04:54 PM	#24
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Oliver Source: http://wits.nctc.gov/reports/crot2006nctcannexfinal.pdf Dead - 20,573 Number of attacks - 14,352 From the same source: Quote: Incident tallies do not, by themselves, provide a complete picture of the magnitude or seriousness of the terrorism challenge confronting a country or region. [...] Moreover, different factors weigh more heavily than others Quote: Fatalities in the Western Hemisphere: 556 Fatalities in the rest of the World: 20,017 Stunning, isn't it? Not news to me. Originally Posted by Oliver 2005: Terror attacks by Islamic Extremist (Sunni) - 23% 2006: Terror attacks by Islamic Extremist (Sunni) - 19% (Well, that decrease would make a good Propaganda Piece for the "War on Terror", wouldn't it?). from the same source: Quote: [...]NCTC does not believe that a simple comparison of the total number of incidents from year to year provides a meaningful measure. Quote: In many reports, attackers are alledged to be tied to to local or well-known terrorist groups but there is little subsequent reporting that verifies these connections. This could explain the large amount of "unknown" terrorist perpetrators. For the sake of being accurate and thorough, when they didn't have enough evidence linking a certain group to an attack, they filed it under "unknown". But it's not that big of a stretch of the imagination to figure out who they are in most cases... Quote: -According to open-source reports, Sunni terrorist groups, more than any other subnational groups, claimed they have conducted the largest number of incidents with the highest casualty totals. -Sunni terrorist groups in various countries carried out the same number of high fatality attacks in 2006 [...]but with deadlier results. Originally Posted by Oliver This is also very interesting: Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2002: - Terror-C's in the Middle East 2004: 725 Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2005: 8,262 Terror-Casualties in Iraq 2006: 13,340 Wohooo, we're getting at something with the War on Terror ... let's roll, Baby! /cynicism It's no news to anyone that Iraq has become the center of terrorist activity.
	Last edited by Pardalis; 2nd July 2007 at 05:08 PM.

2nd July 2007, 07:00 PM	#25
IXP Muse Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 834	Originally Posted by Lonewulf Regardless, .1% of a million people are 1,000 people. If .1% of one million people decided to kill you, and had resources and the ability of anonymity, you'd better be careful... Except that the 1000 people are not trying to kill me, they are trying to kill 300,000,000 of us. That makes me a little less scared. How many people were trying to kill is in WWII? What kind of weapons did they have (clue, the best in the world, until we came up with the nuke). I really don't care if the Muslim population of the world is set on world domination. Really. They so far behind in armaments etc. that there is no chance of this happening, and their sole source of funding has peaked and is now running down. I still fear being attacked by a crazed drug addict when I am downtown more than I fear being a victim of a terrorist attack. IXP
IXP Muse Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 834	__________________ "When reason sleeps, monsters are produced" -- Goya, title of etching that is my avatar

2nd July 2007, 07:11 PM	#26
Solus Tinkering with my brain Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: L.A. area Posts: 1,723	Originally Posted by IXP Except that the 1000 people are not trying to kill me, they are trying to kill 300,000,000 of us. That makes me a little less scared. How many people were trying to kill is in WWII? What kind of weapons did they have (clue, the best in the world, until we came up with the nuke). I really don't care if the Muslim population of the world is set on world domination. Really. They so far behind in armaments etc. that there is no chance of this happening, and their sole source of funding has peaked and is now running down. I still fear being attacked by a crazed drug addict when I am downtown more than I fear being a victim of a terrorist attack. IXP The whole Muslim population of the world doesn't want to kill anyone. It's just a small minority of extremists. Not world dominating but still a danger to be watched for.

2nd July 2007, 07:17 PM	#27
IXP Muse Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 834	Originally Posted by Solus The whole Muslim population of the world doesn't want to kill anyone. It's just a small minority of extremists. Not world dominating but still a danger to be watched for. Yes, my post was a reducto ad absurdum. Read it as even if the entire Muslim population... Yes, we should be vigilant, just as we should against all other criminals. IXP
IXP Muse Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 834	__________________ "When reason sleeps, monsters are produced" -- Goya, title of etching that is my avatar

2nd July 2007, 08:17 PM	#28
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by Solus The whole Muslim population of the world doesn't want to kill anyone. It's just a small minority of extremists. Not world dominating but still a danger to be watched for. Your use of the word "Just" betrays a lack of understanding. Let us postulate 0.1% of all Muslims, or .01% of a billion people. That's 100,000. Consider 100,000 Tim McVeys. At even a 50% success rate, this is not a trivial matter. The peaceful sheep provide a place for the sharks to swim until they wish to strike. Reference? Mao, revolutionary warfare. They are not stupid, they are the enemy. One cannot count on the bulk of one's enemy being 'unable to tie their shoes' as the comment was presented. "These days it only takes one lone nutter to create a terrible attack but thankfully most nutters can't tie their shoelaces together even with instructions from the internet". Complacency is not helpful. Irrational fear is not helpful. Playing chicken little is not helpful. Cold, calculating countermeasures are helpful, as is vigilance and sound police/security work. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

2nd July 2007, 09:21 PM	#29
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,589	Originally Posted by Oliver ...to Canada and their nasty Canadian military interventions around the globe. You're starting to understand, Thank you. Oh Wait: Don't they have freedoms in Canada, too??? I don't know, Oliver, you tell me. You do seem to have a penchant for making judgements about the level of democracy when it comes to the United States.
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

2nd July 2007, 10:42 PM	#30
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	The OP contains a number of glaring mistake, to my mind. Firstly it makes the mistake of assuming that the lack of successful terrorist attacks in the west is evidence that there are no Radical Islamic terrorists wanting to carry out such attacks. This is simply not the case. There have been many attempted attacks. Likewise, there are no doubt many who would carry out such attacks, but lack the means to do so. Finally, and perhaps most significantly, there are a very large number of people who do not wish to carry out such attacks, but support and agree with those that do. In addition, this assumption fails to take into account the considerable effort by authorities to prevent such attacks. Secondly, the OP mistakenly assumes that those declaring that Radical Islam is a serious threat are claiming that there are large numbers of Islamic Radicals, and that they comprise a significant percentage of the total Muslim population. Again, there is no reason to assume this. The nature of terrorism is such that a very small number of people can have a very significant effect. A single islamic terrorist could, with a campaign of bombs, bring a fair sized city to a grinding halt. For an example of how devastating a small group of terrorists can be, I direct you to the Beltway sniper attacks of 2002. Lastly, the OP assumes that those expressing concern about the threat of radical Islam believe that Radical Islam is an immediate and dire threat to Western Society. I cannot speak for anyone else, but as someone that does consider Radical Islam a potentially serious threat, I do not consider it to be an immediate threat. The nature of Radical Islam is such that by the time it really is a serious threat (in 10 years, or 20, or 50, or 100) it will be too late to do anything about it. Radical Islam is a cancer growing inside western society. The threat of Radical Islam is not bombs on trains and buses. It is not hijacked airliners. When the real threat of Radical Islam emerges some time in the next fifty years, they won't need to use bombs and hijackings to get their way. That is the threat of Radical Islam. -Gumboot
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

2nd July 2007, 11:25 PM	#31
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,768	Originally Posted by gumboot I cannot speak for anyone else, but as someone that does consider Radical Islam a potentially serious threat, I do not consider it to be an immediate threat. The nature of Radical Islam is such that by the time it really is a serious threat (in 10 years, or 20, or 50, or 100) it will be too late to do anything about it. Ok, then how does the threat posed by radical islam compare to past threats? Is it more serious than Nazi Germany or the USSR? Quote: Radical Islam is a cancer growing inside western society. The threat of Radical Islam is not bombs on trains and buses. It is not hijacked airliners. Then what is it? Quote: When the real threat of Radical Islam emerges some time in the next fifty years, they won't need to use bombs and hijackings to get their way. That is the threat of Radical Islam. Then what will they need to get their way? What is the "real threat" of radical islam that will emerge within the next 50 years?
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain Last edited by Tony; 2nd July 2007 at 11:28 PM.

2nd July 2007, 11:39 PM	#32
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by Tony Ok, then how does the threat posed by radical islam compare to past threats? Is it more serious than Nazi Germany or the USSR? That's a pretty difficult question. I think all three threats presented the potential of ultimately destroying Western Civilisation (by replacing it with something else). I also think the threat of Radical Islam is also in some ways much easier to address than Nazism or the USSR. On the other hand, like with the threat of Nazism or the USSR, I think the outcome if the potential threat is totally ignored is about the same. Originally Posted by Tony Then what will they need to get their way? What is the "real threat" of radical islam that will emerge? The real threat is that they will achieve their aims via social revolution in the west. They won't need anything to get their way, because our western political systems and western liberalism offer everything they need. -Gumboot
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

3rd July 2007, 12:30 AM	#33
Lonewulf Humanistic Cyborg Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 10,380	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Your use of the word "Just" betrays a lack of understanding. Let us postulate 0.1% of all Muslims, or .01% of a billion people. That's 100,000. Consider 100,000 Tim McVeys. No, I'm pretty sure that's 1,000,000 people. 1,000,000,000 * 0.001 = 1,000,000, according to my calculator. 1% of 1 billion people are 10 million...
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3rd July 2007, 01:07 AM	#34
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by gumboot snip The real threat is that they will achieve their aims via social revolution in the west. They won't need anything to get their way, because our western political systems and western liberalism offer everything they need. -Gumboot Said the guy from the country that blindly accepts every self-appointed ~~anti-constitutional cult~~ religion as such. Hilarious.
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3rd July 2007, 01:20 AM	#35
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Corsair 115 I don't know, Oliver, you tell me. You do seem to have a penchant for making judgements about the level of democracy when it comes to the United States. I tweaked Pardalis nose for his muslim-paranoia in such a peaceful country like Canada. Estimated Number of Muslims in Canada = 783,700 Number of Muslims in Germany = 3,200,000 Estimated Number of Muslims in New Zealand = 25,000
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