Hell in the Bible

[Meadmaker]

Does Hell appear in the Old Testament?

How much support for Hell is there in the Bible? The only clear and obvious references I know of are in Revelations, and the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, where the Rich Man is suffering in Hell and looks up to Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham.

I thought about googling for the answer, but I figured my responses would be dominated by Christian sites, and I thought it likely that this crowd would have a more accurate knowledge of the Bible.

[Wolfman]

Psalm 9:17 -- The wicked shall be turned into Hell, and all the nations that forget God

Psalm 55:15 -- Let death seize them; let them go down alive into hell, for wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.

Proverbs 23:13-14 -- Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from Hell.

Just a few examples...but yes, Hell is certainly mentioned in the OT.

[Hokulele]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Psalm 9:17 -- The wicked shall be turned into Hell, and all the nations that forget God

Psalm 55:15 -- Let death seize them; let them go down alive into hell, for wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.

Proverbs 23:13-14 -- Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from Hell.

Just a few examples...but yes, Hell is certainly mentioned in the OT.

I'm not sure if that is true. In Hebrew translations, they use the word "Sheol" instead of "Hell" in those passages, and Sheol is more of an underworld where everyone goes, not just bad people. If Meadmaker means Hell in the christian fundamental sense, I don't believe the OT does reference it.

[Wolfman]

We're getting into questions of what the definition of "hell" was. Certainly, the concept or definition of hell changed over time...but the NT concept was still fairly similar to the OT concept. Both OT and NT clearly teach that there is some place that evil people go to when they are punished.

In the NT, when Christ is crucified, it is taught that he went to Hell for three days, then returned (thus taking on himself the punishment that was meant for all humanity). The audience he was speaking to, and to whom this claim was made, were all Jews; so obviously they had a clearly defined concept of a place of torment that souls go to after death.

Now, if you're going to get into specific words, yes, there are a number of different words that were used in OT and NT, that are generally all translated as "Hell" in the English version. And very likely (although Christians don't like to admit it), the Jewish version of hell started off borrowing from other religions, and gradually evolved into what it is today.

[Hokulele]

The point I was trying to make is that the OT version of hell was more of a place for everyone, not just a place for evil people to be punished. Yes, evil people are punished there, but that is not its sole purpose. This concept is more related to the Greek concept of an underworld. To my understanding, the Revelations version of Hell is a place where only the wicked are sent, while everyone else goes, um, somewhere else I guess. It really isn't very clear on what happens to non-wicked, non-theists.

[Wolfman]

I think what you're trying to say is that while the OT had a concept of Hell (a place of punishment), they didn't have a concept of Heaven. Actually, the majority of Jews believed that when they died, they all went to the same place; but that some day those who were "good" would be resurrected in a new "perfect" world, just like the Garden of Eden. It wasn't until later that the dichotomy of "Heaven" and "Hell" appeared -- one place for the saint, the other for the sinner.

An interesting theological point, often ignored even by Christians, but in the NT, there are two different words used for "paradise" and "Heaven". In the Jewish context of the time, "paradise" would be an earthly kingdom, like the restored Garden of Eden; whereas "Heaven" was a spiritual realm inhabited by God, angels, etc. The idea of humans dying and going to Heaven is, by this interpretation, actually incorrect. What the Bible actually teaches -- if you understand the context of the words as used at that time -- is that in the End Times, God will get rid of all evil, re-create an earthly paradise just like the Garden of Eden, and then resurrect all of His followers to live there.

[Iamme]

It says somewhere that unless you are born again, you won't make it to heaven. There are alot of do-gooder people out there who aren't born again and wonder where they are 'going'. Because of this, people have a hard time believing that a just God would cast such people into Hell.

[Hokulele]

I looked into this a little bit more, and it appears that Sheol, as used in the OT is more like a waiting room, than a place of torment or anything. You are correct that at the End Times, people will then be split up into whatever just desserts they have earned. I'm just not sure if that is clearly defined in the OT. It looks like the Paradise concept is there, but not the punishment. One interpretation of this could be that if you didn't qualify for Paradise, you would stay in Sheol, which in itself is a punishment, although not one involving active torture.

In the NT, there seems to be a distinction in the original Greek between Sheol (the waiting room) and Gehenna (a very bad place). Which would follow with your argument of the dichotomy between Heaven/Hell being formalized for the first time in the NT.

Maybe Meadmaker can come back and explain what he is looking for.


ETA: For Iamme, there are a lot of us "do-gooders" who don't believe we are "going" anywhere, and aren't wondering about it at all.

[volatile]

As far as I remember, Jehovah's Witnesses don't profess to believe in Hell. I seem to recall arguments from some JWs that the concept of Hell is extra-Biblical...

[ChristineR]

The Septuagint translates "Sheol" as "Hades" but actually they are very different concepts. The OT doesn't have a concept anything like the Christian hell.

There are several NT words sometimes rendered as hell. There's Gehenna, which is the place where the Israelites burnt their garbage. The fires of Gehenna are not referred to as being eternal. There's "the pit" which is where the Devil goes. And finally there's Hades which is really quite different from Sheol.

So far as I can tell, only the Gospel of John really has the concept of an eternal torment for sinners. Revelation teaches a second coming where the unworthy will be destroyed by fire and the devil will be mistreated in various ways.

[Hokulele]

Thanks ChristineR. I was going somewhat from memory and your post cleared up a lot of what I misremembered. What are the differences between "Sheol" and "Hades"?

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Maybe Meadmaker can come back and explain what he is looking for.

Basically, exactly what has been discussed. I was wondering if there was any reference to this place of eternal torment that is so central to most brands of Christianity.

I note that my Bible (New American Bible), a Catholic version from the early 1970s, translates "sheol" as "the nether world". The references given from Psalms and proverbs could be taken as saying let them be killed.

FWIW, my rabbi (Reformed) says that Hell is not a Jewish teaching.

[volatile]

Here's an addendum on the official JW line on Hell:

http://watchtower.org/e/20020715/article_02.htm

Seems they assert that once you're dead, you're dead - until the end times when all the JWs will be resurrected to live on a Paradise earth. Heaven, it seems, is full.

Shame for us.

To be fair, if your proletysing religion is threatening nothing for not joining, and promising nothing for conversion other than being back on the same Earth I left, only with all the fun people who were there before gone and replaced by JWs, I don't really wanna join.

[grayman]

Hell is an eternity of listening to Micheal Bolton and Kim Carnes.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

What are the differences between "Sheol" and "Hades"?

Sheol is the OT word for the place "people" go after death. It's not really described as much of anything, really. From what I remember, it sounds kind of sleep-like and quiet, although there's apparently some form of existence. When Saul hired some witch to summon the spirit of Samuel, Samuel's ghost reacted by initially saying "Why are you disturbing my rest and bringing me here?"

Hades is a Greek term from the New Testament. (remember that the Greeks were pagans, and more into "hell" as we know it. The Greek mentality might have been mingling with Jewish ideas about stuff by the time the NT was written.) Sometimes Hades sounds kind of like Sheol of the OT, but sometimes it's made to sound like a very unpleasant place. It's kind of fuzzy and inconsistent.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Basically, exactly what has been discussed. I was wondering if there was any reference to this place of eternal torment that is so central to most brands of Christianity.

I note that my Bible (New American Bible), a Catholic version from the early 1970s, translates "sheol" as "the nether world". The references given from Psalms and proverbs could be taken as saying let them be killed.

FWIW, my rabbi (Reformed) says that Hell is not a Jewish teaching.

The closest things in the NT to support the popular idea of hell is when Jesus said:

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8:11-12).

And there's this parable:

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
'And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
"And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 'And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
"But Abraham said, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented.
"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from there to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there.
"Then he said, I pray therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house:
"For I have five brothers; that he may testify unto them, unless they also come into this place of torment.
'Abraham said unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
'And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:19-31).

There are a few referneces to a lake of fire in Revelations, but it's only clear that the devil/antichrist and maybe some demons get thrown in there.

[ChristineR]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Thanks ChristineR. I was going somewhat from memory and your post cleared up a lot of what I misremembered. What are the differences between "Sheol" and "Hades"?

Well, Hades is ruled by the God Hades. No one ever comes out of it (except for a few legendary characters). Hades is (at least in some versions) a place of judgment and parts of it are nicer than others. Spirits in Hades have at least a limited social life.

Sheol is literally "the grave" or "death." It's indiscriminate. There isn't much in the way of social activities. There's no landscape. There is no punishment. On the judgment day, everyone will come out of Sheol and then we go from there.

However, by the time of the NT Jews were mixing Sheol and Hades, so there
was both punishment/reward in Sheol and after the final judgment. According to the Wiki articles earlier version of Hades were also bland and non-judgmental, so quite possibly we have a case of a concept splitting apart and growing different mythological features then mixing together again.

[ReligionStudent]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

I looked into this a little bit more, and it appears that Sheol, as used in the OT is more like a waiting room, than a place of torment or anything. You are correct that at the End Times, people will then be split up into whatever just desserts they have earned. I'm just not sure if that is clearly defined in the OT. It looks like the Paradise concept is there, but not the punishment. One interpretation of this could be that if you didn't qualify for Paradise, you would stay in Sheol, which in itself is a punishment, although not one involving active torture.

You are correct that Sheol was just really a waiting room, in a way. But, not really waiting for the end times, just waiting. The end times idea is much later, really post exilic, and not something you see as punishment/paradise until after this. Really the only book in the OT where it might be found is Daniel, which is very late. (Paradise itself is a Persian loan word, and thus would most likely have come in after the exile).
Sheol was just a bland dark existence, a rest, but nothing pleasant or painful. In 2 Samuel (iirc it may be 1 Samuel) Saul visits the witch of endor and has Samuel brought up from Sheol. Samuel is upset, wanting to go without being disturbed.

[Fizzer]

Originally Posted by volatile

As far as I remember, Jehovah's Witnesses don't profess to believe in Hell. I seem to recall arguments from some JWs that the concept of Hell is extra-Biblical...

That's correct. There's a brief overview here, including differences between Sheol/Hades and Gehenna:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20020715/article_02.htm


-EDIT- oops! someone already beat me to it. That's what I get for not reading the rest of the thread first!