Would you do something totally against your beliefs to help someone else?

shalomsteph · 11th July 2007, 03:48 PM

My husband's brother is dying (within the next few hours) and I was asked yesterday to read a song by Jars of Clay. Although the song itself is very nice, it is also very Christian. (I am Jewish, but very liberally Jewish--atheistic cultural Jew. Still, I don't believe he will be in heaven nor in Jesus) I guess I am "qualifying" it by saying it is written as the deceased person's beliefs and it would not be mine. Is this OK, or should I refuse and maybe offer to read something else? This whole thing is just SO gut wrechingly sad that I want to do whatever I can to make their lives slightly easier.

His teenaged daughter asked me to do it, which makes it even harder to say no. But I feel weird, since I don't believe a word of it.

Here are the lyrics.

When I go, don't cry for me
In my Father's arms I'll be
The wounds this world left on my soul
Will all be healed and I'll be whole.
Sun and moon will be replaced
With the light of Jesus' face
And I will not be ashamed
For my Savior knows my name.

It don't matter where you bury me,
I'll be home and I'll be free.
It don't matter where I lay,
All my tears be washed away.

Gold and silver blind the eye
Temporary riches lie
Come and eat from heaven's store,
Come and drink, and thirst no more

It don't matter where you bury me
I'll be home and I'll be free
It don't matter where I lay
All my tears be washed away

So, weep not for me my friends,
When my time below does end
For my life belongs to Him
Who will raise the dead again.

It don't matter where you bury me,
I'll be home and I'll be free.
It don't matter where I lay,

IMST · 11th July 2007, 03:56 PM

I'd do it. It's not about reading something you believe in, it's about doing something nice.

skeptifem · 11th July 2007, 04:05 PM

do it. i dont think youre going to look back and say 'i wish i hadnt comforted that dying person'. i mean if they are dying it should be all about them, dont make it about you and your beliefs. if its important to the dying person and family its worth it.

tkingdoll · 11th July 2007, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by In My Spare Time

I'd do it. It's not about reading something you believe in, it's about doing something nice.

Agreed. It would be tactless and mean-spirited to refuse to do it, and it's not like you're endorsing the message of the reading - they are already believers.

I am guessing from the tone of your post that you are leaning towards doing it but are looking for confirmation that it won't make you a hypocrite? If that's the case, then I'd just like to say that I think you should be proud of yourself for putting the feelings of a grieving family before your own, and know that you've brought a tiny tiny piece of comfort to people you care about in an otherwise bleak time.

Besides, as you're reading it, you can just think of someone you care about when you say 'Jesus' and 'saviour', it's all allegorical anyway.

Tanstaafl · 11th July 2007, 04:11 PM

I'd do it.

And I'm a rather grumpy atheist.

Marquis de Carabas · 11th July 2007, 04:20 PM

We have had several threads over the years wherein someone will ask whether they should attend a religious funeral (or wedding or other event). I have always said they should not let the religious aspect affect their decision. Enduring some religious junk is not too much to ask for a show of support.

In this case, however, it is not mere attendance being requested, but active participation. You are well within both your rights and the bounds of good taste to ask that you read something more in accordance with your own beliefs instead.

skeptifem · 11th July 2007, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

You are well within both your rights and the bounds of good taste to ask that you read something more in accordance with your own beliefs instead.

in a perfect world, sure.

but asking that has a serious potential to cause drama(which is the last thing anyone needs in situations like that). people who have faith in heaven and christ might not appreciate such a question when a loved one is dying, its probably one of the only things helping them through this difficult time and they may interpret it as a questioning of their beliefs. it might really hurt them to hear that, and i cant really blame a family for being irrational during such an emotionally taxing time. i am all for discussion of it but not at times like that.

Tanstaafl · 11th July 2007, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

In this case, however, it is not mere attendance being requested, but active participation. You are well within both your rights and the bounds of good taste to ask that you read something more in accordance with your own beliefs instead.

If it were a reading, I'd be more inclined to agree. Though I'm not sure I have a thoroughly rational reason for drawing the distinction. But this is a song. I've been known to sing a variety of songs (albeit very, very badly) whose lyrics I disagree with.

It is a tougher call than just attending, but if I were the one with the really good singing voice, I'd do it. But I don't think I'd do a religious reading.

ETA: Oops. Just re-read the OP--it is a reading. Now I'm more conflicted.

tkingdoll · 11th July 2007, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

We have had several threads over the years wherein someone will ask whether they should attend a religious funeral (or wedding or other event). I have always said they should not let the religious aspect affect their decision. Enduring some religious junk is not too much to ask for a show of support.

In this case, however, it is not mere attendance being requested, but active participation. You are well within both your rights and the bounds of good taste to ask that you read something more in accordance with your own beliefs instead.

But doesn't the conversation simply go

"I'm really sorry, but I don't believe in God"

"I know. But he did"

I mean, you're not doing the reading for yourself.

Piscivore · 11th July 2007, 04:31 PM

My wife once worked at a Methodist preschool, and I was asked to narrate their Christmas pageant one year. I did it. It didn't hurt me any, the kids weren't going to suddenly become critical thinkers if I refused, and it presented a good image for our team.

Now mind, I don't think I could read aloud what you've been asked to without laughing. If you suspect that might be the case than it might be better that you decline.

Marquis de Carabas · 11th July 2007, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by nails3jesus0

in a perfect world, sure.

but asking that has a serious potential to cause drama(which is the last thing anyone needs in situations like that). people who have faith in heaven and christ might not appreciate such a question when a loved one is dying, its probably one of the only things helping them through this difficult time and they may interpret it as a questioning of their beliefs. it might really hurt them to hear that, and i cant really blame a family for being irrational during such an emotionally taxing time. i am all for discussion of it but not at times like that.

The original request is what has the potential to cause drama. Just because someone close dies does not give one the right to expect everyone else to toe the religious line. Were I Steph, I'd be a little insulted that I was even asked. But, hey, let grieving people slide a little. I'm all for that.

And I'm not endorsing a rude refusal. Refusals can be polite. Just a simple statement that one is uncomfortable reading that particular piece and a request for suitable substitution would be fine.

Marquis de Carabas · 11th July 2007, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

But doesn't the conversation simply go

"I'm really sorry, but I don't believe in God"

"I know. But he did"

Yes, but then it continues...

"I know. But he won't be listening."

More seriously, there is no need to directly bring up atheism to refuse the request. The response included in my reply to Tan makes no mention of beliefs. If pressed, the underlying reason may well come to light, but in that case, the presser must shoulder some of the blame for any offense they take.

Dancing David · 11th July 2007, 04:46 PM

Does reading change your beliefs or go against them?

shalomsteph · 11th July 2007, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Does reading change your beliefs or go against them?

Well, since Atheism is more a lack of a belief in any higher power, it really doesn't go against that...just words. I will probably still cry when I read it, only because of the enormous loss this is...he has three kids and a wife. F*cking cigarettes...

His teenage daughter, who is both very Christian and very naive and sweet, asked me to read it. She knows nothing of my beliefs or lack thereof...she just likes the song and it has been helping her to cope with the upcoming loss of her daddy. I can't really say no nicely, and yes, I don't want to be a hypocrite.

Jon. · 11th July 2007, 05:03 PM

I would, very politely and delicately, inform them that you could not, in good conscience, read something that goes so directly against your beliefs and ask if there is something else you could read, or could you perhaps write something?

ETA: I just read what you posted as I was writing it. If you can't say no nicely, then I would read it. Just keep your fingers crossed!

Beleth · 11th July 2007, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by shalomsteph

His teenage daughter, who is both very Christian and very naive and sweet, asked me to read it. She knows nothing of my beliefs or lack thereof...she just likes the song and it has been helping her to cope with the upcoming loss of her daddy.

Then you are doing it for her. That's not being a hypocrite.

The time to engage in philosophical issues with her, and her dad, and everyone else involved, is not now.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 11th July 2007, 05:25 PM

Yup, read it.

~~ Paul

Davo · 11th July 2007, 05:41 PM

Yep, I would recite the song as well, despite my personnel agnostic belief.

By refusing, it will come out that you are an Athiest and your relatives perception of this will always be remembered in a negative way.

Better to discuss the topic at a later date.

I think a difficult response would be if you were asked,"has xxxxx gone to Heaven ?" by a younger family member, not an easy reply. I would say "I don`t know"

Kochanski · 11th July 2007, 05:48 PM

Steph, I would say read it. I am an atheist by the way who tends to not bend ;-)

The song has meaning for his daughter and she probably doesn't feel like she could handle doing it herself. That she would come to you to ask says she trusts you and depends on you. She is a teen and doesn't know your views and is just coming to an adult who she thinks would do it. If it were an adult who knew and understood your position, I would say differently. Doing it for her is not hypocritical.

You can also preface the reading by saying that the song was chosen by his daughter with acknowledgement that you are honored that she chose you to read it for her.

If you choose afterwards to say something on your own to honor him, you can express your own feelings there and it should make you feel better about the reading.

Wings · 11th July 2007, 05:48 PM

I don't think you would be a hypocrite to do it. I think it would be alright for you to do so, you're not changing your beliefs - just doing something for someone else that coincides with their beliefs. At the very least, I don't see any reason why not.

andyandy · 11th July 2007, 05:55 PM

read it.

Loss Leader · 11th July 2007, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by shalomsteph

My husband's brother is dying (within the next few hours) and I was asked yesterday to read a song by Jars of Clay.

Funerals aren't for the deceased, they're for the grieving.

The question I have for you is whether you are one of those grieving.

I mean, I'm sure you were fond of your brother-in-law. I am very sorry for your loss. But I have a brother-in-law and although I would be sorry if he passed away, I would feel far worse about my sister's pain than for any of my own.

If you don't see yourself as one of the "main" mourners, I would urge you to read the song. You should offer them as much comfort as possible during this painful time. In years to come, they will remember your kindness and they will remember that the song wouldn't have been your first choice. They may be asking you to read it because they know they'll be too choked up to do so themselves.

However, if you personally need to grieve your brother-in-law's passing, don't read it. If you need the funeral to deal with your own grief, then you deserve a little selfish time spent on your own feelings. Just tell his daughter that you don't think you'll be able to read it without breaking down.

I would not offer to do an alternate reading that you "agree" with. Such an offer says to his daughter that you think you're feelings are more important than hers (even if that's not what you mean, that's what she'll hear). That's not a message you want to send right now.

I am sorry for your loss.

ETA: I just read your post #14. You should read it and acknowledge that you're doing so b/c your niece asked you to.

Complexity · 11th July 2007, 07:17 PM

Don't read it.

Offer to read something else, something that would be consistent with both your beliefs and the occasion.

If your offer is not accepted, kindly decline.

Reading something chosen or written by you, that means something special to you, is a far better way of paying respect than acting as an interchangeable reader who feels compelled to read something that you can't stand behind.

You're grieving, too.

gnome · 11th July 2007, 07:35 PM

I'm with Loss Leader... by stating that he was asked to do so, he avoids owning the words as his own beliefs. At the same time, it neatly avoids bringing his own beliefs into the matter, which he seems to want.

If, upon reflection, he wants to make an expression of his own beliefs instead, then perhaps some of the other polite suggestions are called for.

When I saw the topic and hadn't read the story yet, I thought of the scene in Gandhi where a Hindu approaches Gandhi during his fast, and confesses to murdering a Muslim baby in a riot. Gandhi's request was for him to raise a homeless Muslim child according to Muslim beliefs.

joobz · 11th July 2007, 07:58 PM

I'd be more offended being asked to read a Jars of Clay song than being offended by the lyrics.
But my dislike for sappy wuss rock shouldn't get in the way of the day.

Read it, and support the family. They need it.

I'm sorry for your grief and loss.

Dr Adequate · 11th July 2007, 08:53 PM

Can't you just say something along the lines of --- your daughter asked me to read this, and I want to do this for her and for you?

It seems a strange situation to be put in. Can't people just say what they feel?

I too am sorry about the situation, but I don't understand.

But I say read it, given what I think that I understand.

Dr Adequate · 11th July 2007, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by joobz

I'd be more offended being asked to read a Jars of Clay song than being offended by the lyrics.

Then you obviously haven't read the lyrics.

"When my time below does end."

Sheesh.

shalomsteph · 11th July 2007, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Then you obviously haven't read the lyrics.

"When my time below does end."

Sheesh.

It took me awhile to figure out what that meant. I was raised Jewish, so I thought it meant being brought up from the grave and heading to rebuild the temple or something. Then I figured it out and groaned. Silly Christians.

Dr Adequate · 11th July 2007, 09:24 PM

No, it's not a theological question, it's just horribly bad writing.

"When my time below does end."

Is that grammar now?

P.S: Happy birthday.

shalomsteph · 11th July 2007, 09:35 PM

Hey, it's my birthday! I forgot. I guess that happens when you turn 39 for the 3rd time.

Thanks for reminding me!

The grammar in all of their songs is pretty bad. I think it is to make up for the lack of cuss words. But I really didn't understand what that meant. I probably need to get out more...I think the stairway to heaven upon death is a basic Christian concept.

Just for the record, my brother in law is an agnostic, but hi FAMILY is making the service a "come to Jesus" thing. Oh well, I love my niece and will do anything for her...

Tumblehome · 11th July 2007, 10:12 PM

If it were me in this situation, I would hope that a family member's grief would take precedence over my philosophical outlook. I'm a hard core atheist, but knowing it is comforting for her would be motivation enough for me to read it. If the situation was reversed and she refused to read something for me on piddly little philosophical grounds, I'm pretty sure I'd be offended. And it would probably cloud my opinion of her for a long time.

I agree with the others about letting everyone know that she asked you to read it. Something like, "[She] asked me to read this for her father. I hope I can do it justice."

Oddly enough, while I have no problem with the religion in the lyrics (in this situation), I winced at the cavalier butchery of the Queen's English: "It don't matter..." As a grammar Nazi, I would insist on correcting those.

The Great Hairy One · 11th July 2007, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

But doesn't the conversation simply go

"I'm really sorry, but I don't believe in God"

"I know. But he did"

My first reaction here would be:
"So, even though you know I'm an atheist, you're asking me to read a sappy christian song? No, sorry. I'll read something from an artist I respect."

However, in Post #14, shalomsteph notes that the daughter doesn't know that she's an atheist, so there is - as far as I know - no hidden agenda here. That leans me towards reading the song simply to make the daughter happy, rather than it being an attempt at religious conversion.

Although the song is pretty sappy. I'd personally suggest something else myself.

Cheers,
TGHO

Kopji · 11th July 2007, 10:54 PM

There is a certain unfeeling emptyness about it all. His family is comfortable with asking a non Christian to read maudlin 'I Love Jesus' lyrics, and know you will do it because you care for them and don't want to offend.

I'd be with Complexity on this one, finding something better would take about 20 seconds. But it's hard to care.

newlyfound · 11th July 2007, 11:38 PM

Steph,

You need to read that song. This is not about you or your ego. This is about a child who is hurting and who needs all the support she can get. Put yourself in her shoes for few seconds and picture what she has to go through at such an early age. You do not need to tell her that you are doing this "only because...", that's total c..p. If you must do that along the way, then just don't do it. just see this as an exercise of personal growth, altruism, selflessness, love etc. for you. Your beliefs or life, are not going to be altered in any way, upon you reciting a mere poem to confort a griefing family, whose beliefs happen to be different than yours.
Maybe you should get his wife to the side and tell her about your beliefs, that way if during the reading you "react" in an unexpected way, she'd know, she won't take it the wrong way. If you were to tell them about your atheism, I think this is one of the reasons that might be acceptable during such time. In other words, if you were to tell them, it would be to prepare them. Not to imply that you are just so much better than them and this causes you to lower yourself to their level in the process of standing along their side in such tough period. Because that's what refusing or doing it "on your terms" would mean.

Also, if a loved one was in need, in the process of helping, you'd go out and get them what they need, not what you think they should have according to what you are willing to give them. That's what helping is.

Dancing David · 12th July 2007, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by shalomsteph

Well, since Atheism is more a lack of a belief in any higher power, it really doesn't go against that...just words. I will probably still cry when I read it, only because of the enormous loss this is...he has three kids and a wife. F*cking cigarettes...

His teenage daughter, who is both very Christian and very naive and sweet, asked me to read it. She knows nothing of my beliefs or lack thereof...she just likes the song and it has been helping her to cope with the upcoming loss of her daddy. I can't really say no nicely, and yes, I don't want to be a hypocrite.

You could offer to read or speak something of your own choice and have her ask someone else to read that particular song. If you feel it would be hypocritical.

I spoke at the memorial for a good friend of mine, the minister and the family said some religious things, and his brother did not. I spoke nonetheless. It was meaningful and appreciated.

Dancing David · 12th July 2007, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Beleth

Then you are doing it for her. That's not being a hypocrite.

The time to engage in philosophical issues with her, and her dad, and everyone else involved, is not now.

Hear here!

Dancing David · 12th July 2007, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by Kopji

There is a certain unfeeling emptyness about it all. His family is comfortable with asking a non Christian to read maudlin 'I Love Jesus' lyrics, and know you will do it because you care for them and don't want to offend.

I'd be with Complexity on this one, finding something better would take about 20 seconds. But it's hard to care.

How so, you mourn the loss, not the dead.

tkingdoll · 12th July 2007, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Hairy One

My first reaction here would be:
"So, even though you know I'm an atheist, you're asking me to read a sappy christian song? No, sorry. I'll read something from an artist I respect."

I guess you don't deal with too many grieving teenagers then.

Zep · 12th July 2007, 06:28 AM

Read it, but introduce it sort of like this:

"Ladies and gentlemen, X's daughter Y has asked me to read the following today, at this time of his passing.

[read the text]

Thank you."

Daughter has her wish fulfilled, you complete her request honourably, and the selection and content of the text is attributed appropriately.

And my sympathies at your loss, also.

ingoa · 12th July 2007, 08:33 AM

Well, you probably don't believe in Hobbits. Would you read an excerpt of Lord of the Rings?

A fairy tale is a fairy tale is a fairy tale.....

11th July 2007, 03:48 PM	#1
shalomsteph Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 356	Would you do something totally against your beliefs to help someone else? My husband's brother is dying (within the next few hours) and I was asked yesterday to read a song by Jars of Clay. Although the song itself is very nice, it is also very Christian. (I am Jewish, but very liberally Jewish--atheistic cultural Jew. Still, I don't believe he will be in heaven nor in Jesus) I guess I am "qualifying" it by saying it is written as the deceased person's beliefs and it would not be mine. Is this OK, or should I refuse and maybe offer to read something else? This whole thing is just SO gut wrechingly sad that I want to do whatever I can to make their lives slightly easier. His teenaged daughter asked me to do it, which makes it even harder to say no. But I feel weird, since I don't believe a word of it. Here are the lyrics. When I go, don't cry for me In my Father's arms I'll be The wounds this world left on my soul Will all be healed and I'll be whole. Sun and moon will be replaced With the light of Jesus' face And I will not be ashamed For my Savior knows my name. It don't matter where you bury me, I'll be home and I'll be free. It don't matter where I lay, All my tears be washed away. Gold and silver blind the eye Temporary riches lie Come and eat from heaven's store, Come and drink, and thirst no more It don't matter where you bury me I'll be home and I'll be free It don't matter where I lay All my tears be washed away So, weep not for me my friends, When my time below does end For my life belongs to Him Who will raise the dead again. It don't matter where you bury me, I'll be home and I'll be free. It don't matter where I lay,
	__________________ "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."--Voltaire

11th July 2007, 04:05 PM	#3
skeptifem is not beauty 2K compliant Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,259	do it. i dont think youre going to look back and say 'i wish i hadnt comforted that dying person'. i mean if they are dying it should be all about them, dont make it about you and your beliefs. if its important to the dying person and family its worth it.
	__________________

11th July 2007, 04:08 PM	#4
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by In My Spare Time I'd do it. It's not about reading something you believe in, it's about doing something nice. Agreed. It would be tactless and mean-spirited to refuse to do it, and it's not like you're endorsing the message of the reading - they are already believers. I am guessing from the tone of your post that you are leaning towards doing it but are looking for confirmation that it won't make you a hypocrite? If that's the case, then I'd just like to say that I think you should be proud of yourself for putting the feelings of a grieving family before your own, and know that you've brought a tiny tiny piece of comfort to people you care about in an otherwise bleak time. Besides, as you're reading it, you can just think of someone you care about when you say 'Jesus' and 'saviour', it's all allegorical anyway.
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

11th July 2007, 04:11 PM	#5
Tanstaafl Unindicted Co-conspirator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,622	I'd do it. And I'm a rather grumpy atheist.
	__________________ To forgive is human, to condemn for eternity is divine. -- AudioFreak Truth is where evidence comes from, not where belief leads to. --yy2bggggs Expelled exposed! Sylvia Browne

11th July 2007, 04:20 PM	#6
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	We have had several threads over the years wherein someone will ask whether they should attend a religious funeral (or wedding or other event). I have always said they should not let the religious aspect affect their decision. Enduring some religious junk is not too much to ask for a show of support. In this case, however, it is not mere attendance being requested, but active participation. You are well within both your rights and the bounds of good taste to ask that you read something more in accordance with your own beliefs instead.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

11th July 2007, 03:56 PM	#2
IMST If Charlie Parker Was a Gunslinger, There'd Be a Whole Lot of Dead Copycats Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,130	I'd do it. It's not about reading something you believe in, it's about doing something nice.

11th July 2007, 04:24 PM	#7
skeptifem is not beauty 2K compliant Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,259	Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas You are well within both your rights and the bounds of good taste to ask that you read something more in accordance with your own beliefs instead. in a perfect world, sure. but asking that has a serious potential to cause drama(which is the last thing anyone needs in situations like that). people who have faith in heaven and christ might not appreciate such a question when a loved one is dying, its probably one of the only things helping them through this difficult time and they may interpret it as a questioning of their beliefs. it might really hurt them to hear that, and i cant really blame a family for being irrational during such an emotionally taxing time. i am all for discussion of it but not at times like that.
	__________________

11th July 2007, 04:26 PM	#8
Tanstaafl Unindicted Co-conspirator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,622	Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas In this case, however, it is not mere attendance being requested, but active participation. You are well within both your rights and the bounds of good taste to ask that you read something more in accordance with your own beliefs instead. If it were a reading, I'd be more inclined to agree. Though I'm not sure I have a thoroughly rational reason for drawing the distinction. But this is a song. I've been known to sing a variety of songs (albeit very, very badly) whose lyrics I disagree with. It is a tougher call than just attending, but if I were the one with the really good singing voice, I'd do it. But I don't think I'd do a religious reading. ETA: Oops. Just re-read the OP--it is a reading. Now I'm more conflicted.
	__________________ To forgive is human, to condemn for eternity is divine. -- AudioFreak Truth is where evidence comes from, not where belief leads to. --yy2bggggs Expelled exposed! Sylvia Browne Last edited by Tanstaafl; 11th July 2007 at 04:28 PM.

11th July 2007, 04:30 PM	#9
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas We have had several threads over the years wherein someone will ask whether they should attend a religious funeral (or wedding or other event). I have always said they should not let the religious aspect affect their decision. Enduring some religious junk is not too much to ask for a show of support. In this case, however, it is not mere attendance being requested, but active participation. You are well within both your rights and the bounds of good taste to ask that you read something more in accordance with your own beliefs instead. But doesn't the conversation simply go "I'm really sorry, but I don't believe in God" "I know. But he did" I mean, you're not doing the reading for yourself.
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

11th July 2007, 04:31 PM	#10
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,469	My wife once worked at a Methodist preschool, and I was asked to narrate their Christmas pageant one year. I did it. It didn't hurt me any, the kids weren't going to suddenly become critical thinkers if I refused, and it presented a good image for our team. Now mind, I don't think I could read aloud what you've been asked to without laughing. If you suspect that might be the case than it might be better that you decline.
	__________________ Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

11th July 2007, 04:35 PM	#11
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Originally Posted by nails3jesus0 in a perfect world, sure. but asking that has a serious potential to cause drama(which is the last thing anyone needs in situations like that). people who have faith in heaven and christ might not appreciate such a question when a loved one is dying, its probably one of the only things helping them through this difficult time and they may interpret it as a questioning of their beliefs. it might really hurt them to hear that, and i cant really blame a family for being irrational during such an emotionally taxing time. i am all for discussion of it but not at times like that. The original request is what has the potential to cause drama. Just because someone close dies does not give one the right to expect everyone else to toe the religious line. Were I Steph, I'd be a little insulted that I was even asked. But, hey, let grieving people slide a little. I'm all for that. And I'm not endorsing a rude refusal. Refusals can be polite. Just a simple statement that one is uncomfortable reading that particular piece and a request for suitable substitution would be fine.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

11th July 2007, 04:38 PM	#12
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Originally Posted by tkingdoll But doesn't the conversation simply go "I'm really sorry, but I don't believe in God" "I know. But he did" Yes, but then it continues... "I know. But he won't be listening." More seriously, there is no need to directly bring up atheism to refuse the request. The response included in my reply to Tan makes no mention of beliefs. If pressed, the underlying reason may well come to light, but in that case, the presser must shoulder some of the blame for any offense they take.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

11th July 2007, 04:46 PM	#13
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,720	Does reading change your beliefs or go against them?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

11th July 2007, 04:56 PM	#14
shalomsteph Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 356	Originally Posted by Dancing David Does reading change your beliefs or go against them? Well, since Atheism is more a lack of a belief in any higher power, it really doesn't go against that...just words. I will probably still cry when I read it, only because of the enormous loss this is...he has three kids and a wife. F*cking cigarettes... His teenage daughter, who is both very Christian and very naive and sweet, asked me to read it. She knows nothing of my beliefs or lack thereof...she just likes the song and it has been helping her to cope with the upcoming loss of her daddy. I can't really say no nicely, and yes, I don't want to be a hypocrite.
	__________________ "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."--Voltaire

11th July 2007, 05:03 PM	#15
Jon. Increasing entropy since 1970 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: On the Clapham omnibus Posts: 3,509	I would, very politely and delicately, inform them that you could not, in good conscience, read something that goes so directly against your beliefs and ask if there is something else you could read, or could you perhaps write something? ETA: I just read what you posted as I was writing it. If you can't say no nicely, then I would read it. Just keep your fingers crossed!
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11th July 2007, 05:15 PM	#16
Beleth FAQ Creator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Not in a cave Posts: 4,134	Originally Posted by shalomsteph His teenage daughter, who is both very Christian and very naive and sweet, asked me to read it. She knows nothing of my beliefs or lack thereof...she just likes the song and it has been helping her to cope with the upcoming loss of her daddy. Then you are doing it for her. That's not being a hypocrite. The time to engage in philosophical issues with her, and her dad, and everyone else involved, is not now.
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11th July 2007, 05:25 PM	#17
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,592	Yup, read it. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

11th July 2007, 05:41 PM	#18
Davo Thinker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Auckland Posts: 218	Yep, I would recite the song as well, despite my personnel agnostic belief. By refusing, it will come out that you are an Athiest and your relatives perception of this will always be remembered in a negative way. Better to discuss the topic at a later date. I think a difficult response would be if you were asked,"has xxxxx gone to Heaven ?" by a younger family member, not an easy reply. I would say "I don`t know"

11th July 2007, 05:48 PM	#19
Kochanski Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Anonymous Unimportant Place (not a secret Scorpion training facility for Shosuro ninjas) Posts: 2,664	Steph, I would say read it. I am an atheist by the way who tends to not bend ;-) The song has meaning for his daughter and she probably doesn't feel like she could handle doing it herself. That she would come to you to ask says she trusts you and depends on you. She is a teen and doesn't know your views and is just coming to an adult who she thinks would do it. If it were an adult who knew and understood your position, I would say differently. Doing it for her is not hypocritical. You can also preface the reading by saying that the song was chosen by his daughter with acknowledgement that you are honored that she chose you to read it for her. If you choose afterwards to say something on your own to honor him, you can express your own feelings there and it should make you feel better about the reading.
	__________________ The faith of a skeptic is always in doubt Ninja weasel courtesy of http://www.cheeseweasel.net I-con 31 - March 30 - April, 1, 2012 - There is no place like home - Stony Brook http://www.iconsf.org/

11th July 2007, 05:48 PM	#20
Wings Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 247	I don't think you would be a hypocrite to do it. I think it would be alright for you to do so, you're not changing your beliefs - just doing something for someone else that coincides with their beliefs. At the very least, I don't see any reason why not.
Wings Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 247	__________________ Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Clear, precise and unambiguous language is important towards being understood.

11th July 2007, 05:55 PM	#21
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,192	read it.
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

11th July 2007, 06:19 PM	#22
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,885	Originally Posted by shalomsteph My husband's brother is dying (within the next few hours) and I was asked yesterday to read a song by Jars of Clay. Funerals aren't for the deceased, they're for the grieving. The question I have for you is whether you are one of those grieving. I mean, I'm sure you were fond of your brother-in-law. I am very sorry for your loss. But I have a brother-in-law and although I would be sorry if he passed away, I would feel far worse about my sister's pain than for any of my own. If you don't see yourself as one of the "main" mourners, I would urge you to read the song. You should offer them as much comfort as possible during this painful time. In years to come, they will remember your kindness and they will remember that the song wouldn't have been your first choice. They may be asking you to read it because they know they'll be too choked up to do so themselves. However, if you personally need to grieve your brother-in-law's passing, don't read it. If you need the funeral to deal with your own grief, then you deserve a little selfish time spent on your own feelings. Just tell his daughter that you don't think you'll be able to read it without breaking down. I would not offer to do an alternate reading that you "agree" with. Such an offer says to his daughter that you think you're feelings are more important than hers (even if that's not what you mean, that's what she'll hear). That's not a message you want to send right now. I am sorry for your loss. ETA: I just read your post #14. You should read it and acknowledge that you're doing so b/c your niece asked you to.
	__________________ Follow me on Twitter! @LossLeader This force is receiving all the right to vote through the use of magic. - Miernik Wieslaw <NEW> VOTE FOR ME JUST BECAUSE <NEW> Last edited by Loss Leader; 11th July 2007 at 06:23 PM.

11th July 2007, 07:17 PM	#23
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Don't read it. Offer to read something else, something that would be consistent with both your beliefs and the occasion. If your offer is not accepted, kindly decline. Reading something chosen or written by you, that means something special to you, is a far better way of paying respect than acting as an interchangeable reader who feels compelled to read something that you can't stand behind. You're grieving, too.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

11th July 2007, 07:35 PM	#24
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,872	I'm with Loss Leader... by stating that he was asked to do so, he avoids owning the words as his own beliefs. At the same time, it neatly avoids bringing his own beliefs into the matter, which he seems to want. If, upon reflection, he wants to make an expression of his own beliefs instead, then perhaps some of the other polite suggestions are called for. When I saw the topic and hadn't read the story yet, I thought of the scene in Gandhi where a Hindu approaches Gandhi during his fast, and confesses to murdering a Muslim baby in a riot. Gandhi's request was for him to raise a homeless Muslim child according to Muslim beliefs.
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,872	__________________

11th July 2007, 07:58 PM	#25
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,497	I'd be more offended being asked to read a Jars of Clay song than being offended by the lyrics. But my dislike for sappy wuss rock shouldn't get in the way of the day. Read it, and support the family. They need it. I'm sorry for your grief and loss.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

11th July 2007, 08:53 PM	#26
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Can't you just say something along the lines of --- your daughter asked me to read this, and I want to do this for her and for you? It seems a strange situation to be put in. Can't people just say what they feel? I too am sorry about the situation, but I don't understand. But I say read it, given what I think that I understand.

11th July 2007, 08:59 PM	#27
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Originally Posted by joobz I'd be more offended being asked to read a Jars of Clay song than being offended by the lyrics. Then you obviously haven't read the lyrics. "When my time below does end." Sheesh.

11th July 2007, 09:12 PM	#28
shalomsteph Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 356	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate Then you obviously haven't read the lyrics. "When my time below does end." Sheesh. It took me awhile to figure out what that meant. I was raised Jewish, so I thought it meant being brought up from the grave and heading to rebuild the temple or something. Then I figured it out and groaned. Silly Christians.
	__________________ "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."--Voltaire

11th July 2007, 09:24 PM	#29
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	No, it's not a theological question, it's just horribly bad writing. "When my time below does end." Is that grammar now? P.S: Happy birthday.

11th July 2007, 09:35 PM	#30
shalomsteph Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 356	Hey, it's my birthday! I forgot. I guess that happens when you turn 39 for the 3rd time. Thanks for reminding me! The grammar in all of their songs is pretty bad. I think it is to make up for the lack of cuss words. But I really didn't understand what that meant. I probably need to get out more...I think the stairway to heaven upon death is a basic Christian concept. Just for the record, my brother in law is an agnostic, but hi FAMILY is making the service a "come to Jesus" thing. Oh well, I love my niece and will do anything for her...
	__________________ "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."--Voltaire

11th July 2007, 10:12 PM	#31
Tumblehome Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Beside the point Posts: 1,445	If it were me in this situation, I would hope that a family member's grief would take precedence over my philosophical outlook. I'm a hard core atheist, but knowing it is comforting for her would be motivation enough for me to read it. If the situation was reversed and she refused to read something for me on piddly little philosophical grounds, I'm pretty sure I'd be offended. And it would probably cloud my opinion of her for a long time. I agree with the others about letting everyone know that she asked you to read it. Something like, "[She] asked me to read this for her father. I hope I can do it justice." Oddly enough, while I have no problem with the religion in the lyrics (in this situation), I winced at the cavalier butchery of the Queen's English: "It don't matter..." As a grammar Nazi, I would insist on correcting those.

11th July 2007, 10:28 PM	#32
The Great Hairy One Chief Cdr Scientist, NWO Cloning Labs Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,066	Originally Posted by tkingdoll But doesn't the conversation simply go "I'm really sorry, but I don't believe in God" "I know. But he did" My first reaction here would be: "So, even though you know I'm an atheist, you're asking me to read a sappy christian song? No, sorry. I'll read something from an artist I respect." However, in Post #14, shalomsteph notes that the daughter doesn't know that she's an atheist, so there is - as far as I know - no hidden agenda here. That leans me towards reading the song simply to make the daughter happy, rather than it being an attempt at religious conversion. Although the song is pretty sappy. I'd personally suggest something else myself. Cheers, TGHO
	__________________ High Priest of Gzortch, the Demon Prince of Nostrils

11th July 2007, 10:54 PM	#33
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	There is a certain unfeeling emptyness about it all. His family is comfortable with asking a non Christian to read maudlin 'I Love Jesus' lyrics, and know you will do it because you care for them and don't want to offend. I'd be with Complexity on this one, finding something better would take about 20 seconds. But it's hard to care.

11th July 2007, 11:38 PM	#34
newlyfound Banned Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 182	Steph, You need to read that song. This is not about you or your ego. This is about a child who is hurting and who needs all the support she can get. Put yourself in her shoes for few seconds and picture what she has to go through at such an early age. You do not need to tell her that you are doing this "only because...", that's total c..p. If you must do that along the way, then just don't do it. just see this as an exercise of personal growth, altruism, selflessness, love etc. for you. Your beliefs or life, are not going to be altered in any way, upon you reciting a mere poem to confort a griefing family, whose beliefs happen to be different than yours. Maybe you should get his wife to the side and tell her about your beliefs, that way if during the reading you "react" in an unexpected way, she'd know, she won't take it the wrong way. If you were to tell them about your atheism, I think this is one of the reasons that might be acceptable during such time. In other words, if you were to tell them, it would be to prepare them. Not to imply that you are just so much better than them and this causes you to lower yourself to their level in the process of standing along their side in such tough period. Because that's what refusing or doing it "on your terms" would mean. Also, if a loved one was in need, in the process of helping, you'd go out and get them what they need, not what you think they should have according to what you are willing to give them. That's what helping is.
newlyfound Banned Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 182

12th July 2007, 04:16 AM	#35
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,720	Originally Posted by shalomsteph Well, since Atheism is more a lack of a belief in any higher power, it really doesn't go against that...just words. I will probably still cry when I read it, only because of the enormous loss this is...he has three kids and a wife. F*cking cigarettes... His teenage daughter, who is both very Christian and very naive and sweet, asked me to read it. She knows nothing of my beliefs or lack thereof...she just likes the song and it has been helping her to cope with the upcoming loss of her daddy. I can't really say no nicely, and yes, I don't want to be a hypocrite. You could offer to read or speak something of your own choice and have her ask someone else to read that particular song. If you feel it would be hypocritical. I spoke at the memorial for a good friend of mine, the minister and the family said some religious things, and his brother did not. I spoke nonetheless. It was meaningful and appreciated.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager