FDNY's www.rudy-urbanlegend.com

geggy · 11th July 2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Nearly everyone has seen the footage of Rudy Giuliani on 9/11 and in the days immediately afterwards, acting decisive, examining the wreckage, calming a city and a nation. Giuliani has done everything in his power to brandish his reputation as "America's Mayor," and he's cashed in on the persona, politically and financially.

New York firefighters who were at the World Trade Center when it collapsed and family members of those who didn't make it out released a video aimed at shattering what they're calling Giuliani's "urban legend."

"He's running on his 9/11 leadership, and it was lacking and there was none," FDNY Deputy Chief Jim Riches says in the video, which was released Wednesday by the International Association of Firefighters' political action committee.

The firefighters blame Giuliani for buying the department radios that were known to malfunction. When department commanders gave an order to evacuate the north tower of the World Trade Center, but firefighters were unable to hear the order because of the faulty radios and died in the building, the video alleges.

Firefighters had nearly an hour to get out of the building after the first call came through at 9:32 a.m., at the same time New York police officers were evacuating the building.

"Not a single cop was lost in that building. Why was that?" asked retired Chief of Safety Alexander Santora. "Because they had gotten the word to get out. Our radios weren't working."

The firefighters say Giuliani was disgraceful in telling the 9/11 Commission that firefighters died in the building because they ignored the evacuation order.

The video also attacks the former mayor for putting his emergency command center at Building 7 of the World Trade Center, which was known to be a terrorist target since it was first attacked in 1993.

In the aftermath of the terror attacks, firefighters set to recovering those who had been lost, but the video implies that Giuliani was concerned only with recovering $200 million worth of gold. He ordered recovery efforts to stop as soon as the gold was recovered, while 242 firefighters and countless other civilians remained buried in the rubble, according to the video.

Giuliani's campaign issued a response to the firefighters' video before it even was posted online, releasing a statement from retired New York firefighter Lee Ielpi, who said the firefighters "have once again taken the low road in a move clearly out of step with their membership."

The campaign accuses the firefighters' union of engaging in purely partisan attacks. But one of the unions whose members appear in the video, Local 94, endorsed President Bush in 2004.

Since rocketing to international prominence after 9/11, Giuliani has raked in more than $11 million through book and speaking fees related to the terror attacks. The firefighters say his portrait of leadership is ill founded.

"We did need radios that worked; we didn't have them. We did need proper respiratory protection; he didn't give it to us," said Steve Cassidy, president of a New York firefighters union Local 94. "The things that we needed to do our job even better, we didn't have, because of his administration."

Alareth · 11th July 2007, 04:57 PM

374?

Gravy · 11th July 2007, 05:25 PM

I've asked that this be moved to politics.

T.A.M. · 11th July 2007, 06:35 PM

ah give him a break, I mean 374 posts, and still nothing works...not much left but something only "slightly" related to 9/11 CTs...lol

TAM

Revolutionary91 · 11th July 2007, 06:37 PM

TAM as someone who dislikes CTs that disrespect firefighters do you condone Guilianis treatment of them?

T.A.M. · 11th July 2007, 06:39 PM

If Guiliani has treated the firefighters in anyway with disrepect or cruelly, than NO I do not agree with that. If he has denied or hampered efforts to have them compensated for injuries or mental health issues as a result of 9/11, than NO I do not support this.

TAM

Anti-sophist · 11th July 2007, 07:01 PM

This seems entirely off-topic for CT.

Devil's Advocate · 11th July 2007, 07:02 PM

I want to see the video.

I never really cared much for Rudy, I always felt he was playing up the 'hero' role he was given from 9/11.
And him even implying U.S. policy played no part in the 9/11 attacks shows that he is either completely clueless, or he is a liar.

qarnos · 11th July 2007, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

I want to see the video.

I never really cared much for Rudy, I always felt he was playing up the 'hero' role he was given from 9/11.
And him even implying U.S. policy played no part in the 9/11 attacks shows that he is either completely clueless, or he is a liar.

He's got nothing on William Rodriguez.

fuelair · 11th July 2007, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

I want to see the video.

I never really cared much for Rudy, I always felt he was playing up the 'hero' role he was given from 9/11.
And him even implying U.S. policy played no part in the 9/11 attacks shows that he is either completely clueless, or he is a liar.

I trust that you are not implying that the US should let its' policies be determined by sub-human slime (other, that is, except for a policy of eliminating it root and branch by any available means).

CptColumbo · 11th July 2007, 07:44 PM

If true (emphasis on if), it really doesn't change my opinion of Giuliani very much.

This should really be in Politics.

60hzxtl · 11th July 2007, 08:22 PM

Move this to politics.

And I happen to have heard these interviews in their entirety.

You should hear what the FDNY members have to say about the CT crowd!

fitzgibbon · 11th July 2007, 08:27 PM

But.....but......but.......what if it IS a conspiracy?

Wouldn't it belong here then?

Nah!!!!!!

Devil's Advocate · 11th July 2007, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

I trust that you are not implying that the US should let its' policies be determined by sub-human slime (other, that is, except for a policy of eliminating it root and branch by any available means).

I am in no way talking about the dictation of policy, I am talking about the result of said policy(s).

Change perspective and propaganda for a moment and how do the radicals see the United States with regard to the policy(s).

A Christian nation attacks Muslim nations for decades. (Of course not non stop, but remember who's eyes you are seeing through)
They support coups to overthrow leaders of other Muslim nations to install pro-U.S. puppet regimes.
Sanction's against Iraq lead to how many civilian deaths?
The U.S. supports and arms their greatest enemy, Israel, in the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.

It is blow back.
And to say the terrorists want to attack the U.S. because we are free is the worst kind of lie.
You cannot allow radicals to dictate you foreign policy, no. But you cannot deny that said policy will not have blow back in one form or another. And to turn it around and claim that they hate you for a completely unrealistic reason(s) proves that someone is either completely ignorant, or a liar.

(spelling champion edits...aha)

Orphia Nay · 11th July 2007, 10:46 PM

Yes, I agree that this belongs in Politics etc.

It's the BBC News top story at the moment:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6294198.stm

Pardalis · 12th July 2007, 12:19 AM

Orphia Nay · 12th July 2007, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Yep.

Travis · 12th July 2007, 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

I am in no way talking about the dictation of policy, I am talking about the result of said policy(s).

Change perspective and propaganda for a moment and how do the radicals see the United States with regard to the policy(s).

A Christian nation attacks Muslim nations for decades. (Of course not non stop, but remember who's eyes you are seeing through)

If the attacks were religiously motivated the radicals might have a leg to stand on here. But, because the attacks were not religiously motivated, to see them as such is stupid. Iraq, essentially a secular nation under the Bath party, had agreed to the no fly zones, they routinely broke them, they paid the price for it, and I won't loose any sleep over it.

Quote:

They support coups to overthrow leaders of other Muslim nations to install pro-U.S. puppet regimes.

I'm not going to defend the US doing this however I will ask how many other nations have done this? The correct answer, of course, is many. The US is not alone in doing such things no matter what leftist radicals on university campuses might say. At the same time this doesn't mean such actions are automatically reasonable due to the greater enemy of the USSR no matter what right wing radicals might say.

Quote:

Sanction's against Iraq lead to how many civilian deaths?

Iraq's government had the power to get those sanctions lifted anytime they wanted. They refused. As for the impact on civilians, there was an oil for food program that was supposed to help them but didn't due to corruption in Iraq and at the UN. Blaming the US for UN imposed sanctions and then the aftermath of a botched UN program seems like misplaced outrage.

Quote:

The U.S. supports and arms their greatest enemy, Israel, in the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.

When the Palestinians recognize Isreal's right to exist alongside them, and the Jewish peoples right to live period, I might shed a tear for them.

Quote:

It is blow back.

London getting bombed during the blitz was "blow back" for not giving in to Hitler and letting him invade Poland and then the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, France........ anyways, yeah, not giving into unreasonable demands by unreasonable people might cause "blow back" as history has shown.

Quote:

And to say the terrorists want to attack the U.S. because we are free is the worst kind of lie.

Doesn't mean they were attacking for sound, reasonable and altruistic reasons either.

Quote:

You cannot allow radicals to dictate you foreign policy, no.

On this we agree.

Quote:

But you cannot deny that said policy will not have blow back in one form or another.

Standing up to hate filled and violent people does have consequences, that is true, as I have previously stated.

Quote:

And to turn it around and claim that they hate you for a completely unrealistic reason(s) proves that someone is either completely ignorant, or a liar.

(spelling champion edits...aha)

Well I've never claimed they hate me for my freedoms. However they sure have demonstrated that they don't want the freedoms I enjoy where they are.

Cheers.

Undesired Walrus · 12th July 2007, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

I am in no way talking about the dictation of policy, I am talking about the result of said policy(s).

Change perspective and propaganda for a moment and how do the radicals see the United States with regard to the policy(s).

A Christian nation attacks Muslim nations for decades. (Of course not non stop, but remember who's eyes you are seeing through)
They support coups to overthrow leaders of other Muslim nations to install pro-U.S. puppet regimes.
Sanction's against Iraq lead to how many civilian deaths?
The U.S. supports and arms their greatest enemy, Israel, in the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.

It is blow back.

No. It is a group who wishes global domination and wishes to keep the US out of lands like Mecca, lands that are currently occupied. A 'revenge attack' it isn't.

Question: What were the Bali bombings about?

Quote:

And to say the terrorists want to attack the U.S. because we are free is the worst kind of lie.

'If we look at the sources and foundations of modern ways of living, it becomes clear that the whole world is steeped in Jahiliyyah, [Ignorance of the Divine guidance] and all the marvellous material comforts and high-level inventions do not diminish this ignorance. This Jahiliyyah is based on rebellion against God's sovereignty on earth. It transfers to man one of the greatest attributes of God, namely sovereignty, and makes some men lords over others. It is now not in that simple and primitive form of the ancient Jahiliyyah, but takes the form of claiming that the right to create values, to legislate rules of collective behavior, and to choose any way of life rests with men, without regard to what God has prescribed. The result of this rebellion against the authority of God is the oppression of His creatures. Thus the humiliation of the common man under the communist systems and the exploitation of individuals and nations due to greed for wealth and imperialism under the capitalist systems are but a corollary of rebellion against God's authority and the denial of the dignity of man given to him by God.

In this respect, Islam's way of life is unique, for in systems other that Islam, some people worship others in some form or or another. Only in the Islamic way of life do all men become free from the servitude of some men to others and devote themselves to the worship of God alone, deriving guidance from Him alone, and bowing before Him alone.
'
-Qutb

'Your democratically-elected government continues to commit atrocities against my people, and your support for them makes you directly responsible.' - Mohammed Sidique Khan (See there he identifies Brits as a 'You', despite being British himself. Because he sees himself as Muslim before all else).

Undesired Walrus · 12th July 2007, 03:17 AM

'It is necessary that there should be a vanguard which sets out with this determination and then keeps walking on the path, marching through the vast ocean of Jahiliyyah which has encompassed the entire world. '
-Qutb

geggy · 12th July 2007, 05:05 AM

Reason why I posted this in CT forum is because "debunkers" have been parroting the rudy's lie that he gave evacuation orders to the firefighters inside the towers when they said otherwise.

I've always been skepitcal of the incompetence theory because it seem to have pay off for rudy as well as the bush administration big time, especially that they have been abusing the event of 911 for the reason of financial and political expediency. They've proven themselves to be opportunists and I often question how much they knew what was coming preceding to 911 and if they wanted it to happen because they saw it as an opportunity, ie. able danger, arrest of moussaoui, project bojinka, etc. While I applaud the firefighters for coming out and exposing rudy's false image with their new website, I think they have failed to recognize that.

Darth Rotor · 12th July 2007, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Gravy

I've asked that this be moved to politics.

Gravy, this looks to be the same issue Sentinel was usually harping about: bad C2, bad radios, dead people thanks to bad communications.

DR

60hzxtl · 12th July 2007, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by geggy

Reason why I posted this in CT forum is because "debunkers" have been parroting the rudy's lie that he gave evacuation orders to the firefighters inside the towers when they said otherwise.

Evacuation orders were given - by the FDNY - and were not heard over the radios - Rudy was not micromanaging the event - no matter what you think.

Rudy's testimony had to do with FDNY ignoring the orders to evacuate, and staying with the injured - (e.g. Lt. Patrick Brown, who died in the WTC - his last transmission was that he had injured and was going to attempt to bring them to safety. Paddy was a hell of a guy - I rode with him for a week at Rescue 1, in 1991. )

in this video Rudy is portrayed as saving his own reputation over that fact.

Upchurch · 12th July 2007, 06:58 AM

This smells swift boat-y to me.

I suggest checking their claims before trusting what they say.

60hzxtl · 12th July 2007, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

This smells swift boat-y to me.

I suggest checking their claims before trusting what they say.

What they say is factual - it's just wildly out of context - The union was just as responsible for the radio situation as the Mayor was - it was just that Rudy made the decision, not the union, to buy the new radios.

Had the Union been involved with picking the vendor, there would have been the opportunity for kick backs - the Union is carrying that grudge into politics, using the emotions of those who lost family and co workers there.

Alt+F4 · 12th July 2007, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by 60hzxtl

What they say is factual - it's just wildly out of context - The union was just as responsible for the radio situation as the Mayor was - it was just that Rudy made the decision, not the union, to buy the new radios.

Had the Union been involved with picking the vendor, there would have been the opportunity for kick backs - the Union is carrying that grudge into politics, using the emotions of those who lost family and co workers there.

Do you have any proof that the union in question (Uniformed Firefighters Association) has ever been engaged in a kickback scheme?

Of course the FDNY has to take some responsibility for the radios but then the head of the UFA isn't running for President.

Beerina · 12th July 2007, 07:38 AM

And remember that in science, you don't question the motives, you address the facts. But in politics, 90% of the time the facts are tailored to support the motives.

These people want somebody who, purely coincidentally, is not Giuliani, to win the next presidential election. And they must be far distant from this person (Hillary, Obama, or even just some generalized Democrat) lest the meanness of the attack rub off on the candidate, to the candidate's detriment, given the love people have for Rudy.

"Follow the money..."

60hzxtl · 12th July 2007, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

Do you have any proof that the union in question (Uniformed Firefighters Association) has ever been engaged in a kickback scheme?

I have only the hearsay evidence from the legal end of the former Mayor's office, as to why the city short circuited (no pun intended) the approval process. I don't read it as cya.

I have some first hand knowledge about the content of the unedited interviews used in this video.

Such is politics.

The radios were a mess. A mess made with good intentions, not bad leadership.

And about those interviews? I wish I could quote them about the CT idiots.

davefoc · 12th July 2007, 10:33 AM

The firefighter's ad is a disgusting hit piece. I made it a little bit more than half way through before listening to emotional, potentially uninformed attacks on Giuliani by people who had lost family members in the WTC was more than I felt like listening to for the purpose of trying to understand the truth about this.

There seem to be two criticisms of Giuliani here:
1. He chose to put the emergency control center in the basement of the WTC against the advice of others and that turned out to be a bad decision.

OK, what were the alternatives? What were the tradeoffs? Is there any evidence that Giuliani made the decision for political or other self serving reasons?

2. Giuliani's administration selected new radios and failed to test them adequately. He is also accused of acquiring the radios with a no-bid contract.

If Giuliani selected the radios for political purposes or based on some kind of bribery Giuliani at the minimum is guilty of manslaughter. What is the evidence that he did this? Were there obvious better choices available? What was Giuliani's justification for the decision and was that justification plausible?

I don't know the answer to any of the above. I looked around a bit on the web and didn't find anything relevant except for reports of the firefighter's union attacks.

At this point, the certainty is that Giuliani will be damaged by the attacks regardless of the validity of the attacks. Interestingly, even if Giuliani is completely culpable here or completely innocent the damage to his campaign will be about the same I suspect. Truth in this kind of thing doesn't seem to be all that important with regard to the effect on a candidates election chances.

fuelair · 12th July 2007, 11:45 AM

If news reports since (tv CNN, etc.) of the data are correct, police radios functioned fine and were NOT the type the firefighters had - so looks like there was at least one better type. Second, one of the items involves bad timing at best - again, if true - on one of the newscasts one of the people involved in making the tape spoke of the search for missing firefighters/their remains halted right after all the gold had been removed - rather than continuing as had been said to happen prior (Giuliani supposedly assured firefighters they would be hunting for all the remains before just bulldozing everything to get on with straight cleanup, but as soon as gold bars from somewhere in the wreckage were found and removed he said to let the cleanup start. If true...). Obviously, I do not know whether this is true or not, but it should be easy to check out from reports/records of the period it happened in.

Pardalis · 12th July 2007, 11:50 AM

Anything to keep the culpability away from Al Qaeda...

What a topsy-turvy world.

corplinx · 12th July 2007, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

This smells swift boat-y to me.

To be truely swifty in my opinion, it needs a nefarious financier.

Is there one?

Upchurch · 12th July 2007, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by corplinx

To be truely swifty in my opinion, it needs a nefarious financier.

Is there one?

Dunno. I'm just saying my skepti-sense is tingling.

I think the determining factor is less the nefarious financier so much as a nefarious disregard for fact in favor defeating the target.

eta: The site appears to be registered to the IAFF, fwiw.

bigred · 12th July 2007, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by davefoc

The firefighter's ad is a disgusting hit piece. I made it a little bit more than half way through before listening to emotional, potentially uninformed attacks on Giuliani by people who had lost family members in the WTC was more than I felt like listening to for the purpose of trying to understand the truth about this.

There seem to be two criticisms of Giuliani here:
1. He chose to put the emergency control center in the basement of the WTC against the advice of others and that turned out to be a bad decision.

OK, what were the alternatives? What were the tradeoffs? Is there any evidence that Giuliani made the decision for political or other self serving reasons?

2. Giuliani's administration selected new radios and failed to test them adequately. He is also accused of acquiring the radios with a no-bid contract.

If Giuliani selected the radios for political purposes or based on some kind of bribery Giuliani at the minimum is guilty of manslaughter. What is the evidence that he did this? Were there obvious better choices available? What was Giuliani's justification for the decision and was that justification plausible?

I don't know the answer to any of the above. I looked around a bit on the web and didn't find anything relevant except for reports of the firefighter's union attacks.

At this point, the certainty is that Giuliani will be damaged by the attacks regardless of the validity of the attacks. Interestingly, even if Giuliani is completely culpable here or completely innocent the damage to his campaign will be about the same I suspect. Truth in this kind of thing doesn't seem to be all that important with regard to the effect on a candidates election chances.

Exactly. Bravo.

I smell political BS, but can't say, just a hunch.

Dr Adequate · 12th July 2007, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

These people want somebody who, purely coincidentally, is not Giuliani, to win the next presidential election.

Tell me ... when you read the minds of the 280,000 members of the IAFF and discovered that they all want the same President, did you also find out who their chosen candidate was?

Quote:

And they must be far distant from this person (Hillary, Obama, or even just some generalized Democrat) ...

Ah, evidently not. But you're sure it's a Democrat, yes?

From the OP:

"The campaign accuses the firefighters' union of engaging in purely partisan attacks. But one of the unions whose members appear in the video, Local 94, endorsed President Bush in 2004."

Liberals can be cunning like that.

Quote:

"Follow the money..."

And this is where your CT breaks down, isn't it?

If you have any evidence of a money trail between one of Giuliani's rivals (why a Democrat?) and the International Association of Fire Fighters (founded 1918, membership 280,000 --- Swift Boat Idiots For Chimps they are not) then please feel free to share it with us.

Dr Adequate · 12th July 2007, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Anything to keep the culpability away from Al Qaeda...

Sorry, did you just accuse New York firemen of shilling for Al-Qaeda?

Oh, I can see that we're going to have some fun with this one.

Do you have any evidence that the defective radios were supplied by Islamic terrorists, or is it just possible that someone else is to blame in this instance?

Beerina · 13th July 2007, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Tell me ... when you read the minds of the 280,000 members of the IAFF and discovered that they all want the same President, did you also find out who their chosen candidate was?

Just an observation on probable motivation by the leadership. There are other groups stirring the pot against Giuliani in different areas. Do you believe the motivation of all these groups is purely hatred of Giuliani?

Dr Adequate · 13th July 2007, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Just an observation on probable motivation by the leadership. There are other groups stirring the pot against Giuliani in different areas. Do you believe the motivation of all these groups is purely hatred of Giuliani?

Well, opposition to him, certainly. Or are you suggesting that some groups are attacking Giuliani despite thinking that he would actually be the best choice for President?

The question is whether, as you suggested, the firefighters have some particular candidate in mind that they'd prefer, and whether, as you suggested, money has changed hands. I see no evidence for this. If firefighters feel (a) that Giuliani let them down on 9/11 (b) that he has built his image on 9/11, then I could see how they might legitimately be pissed at him. And this is in fact what they're saying about him.

If someone wishes to speculate that their chief motive is, for example, a fervent desire that Fred Thompson should win the Republican primaries, then I for one would like to see some proof.

Gurdur · 13th July 2007, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Anything to keep the culpability away from Al Qaeda...

You seem to be implying Al-Qaeda should be made responsible for buying radios for NYC uniformed firemen. That seems a most odd suggestion.

Quote:

What a topsy-turvy world.

Indeed, indeed.

davefoc · 13th July 2007, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Tell me ... when you read the minds of the 280,000 members of the IAFF and discovered that they all want the same President, did you also find out who their chosen candidate was?
...

"The campaign accuses the firefighters' union of engaging in purely partisan attacks. But one of the unions whose members appear in the video, Local 94, endorsed President Bush in 2004."

Liberals can be cunning like that.

And this is where your CT breaks down, isn't it?

This doesn't seem like a valid response to the criticism of the video. Nobody said that 200,000 members of the IAFF put this video together. This video was created at the behest of union leadership. Any criticism of the video content was directed at them.

If Giuliani made a mistake and picked the wrong radios then he deserves to be criticized for that decision. If Giuliani picked the wrong radios because he wanted to benefit a company that had provided him campaign contributions or other benefits then he should go to jail.

But this video doesn't provide any probative evidence on either one of those issues. It is an emotional inflammatory piece that exploits the pain of people who lost family members in the 9/11 disaster to promote a viewpoint that is in the union leadership's political interest.

Why is it in the union leadership's interest? Because unions are a Democratic party interest group and union leadership routinely expends union funds to benefit the Democratic Party in return for what it hopes is legislative benefits. In California the unions spent a great deal of money defeating a bill that would have reduced gerrymandering. Why was this a union issue? Because unions want Democrats to win and gerrymandering in California works to maintain the incumbent political party which is the Democratic Party.

If you have evidence that Giuliani selection of the radios was wrong then I hope you will post it.

If you have evidence that Giuliani selection of the radios was based on corrupt motivations then I hope you will post it.

The video produced by the IAFF only provided evidence that politics is a dirty business.

11th July 2007, 04:49 PM	#1
geggy Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 520	FDNY's www.rudy-urbanlegend.com Http://www.rudy-urbanlegend.com Quote: Nearly everyone has seen the footage of Rudy Giuliani on 9/11 and in the days immediately afterwards, acting decisive, examining the wreckage, calming a city and a nation. Giuliani has done everything in his power to brandish his reputation as "America's Mayor," and he's cashed in on the persona, politically and financially. New York firefighters who were at the World Trade Center when it collapsed and family members of those who didn't make it out released a video aimed at shattering what they're calling Giuliani's "urban legend." "He's running on his 9/11 leadership, and it was lacking and there was none," FDNY Deputy Chief Jim Riches says in the video, which was released Wednesday by the International Association of Firefighters' political action committee. The firefighters blame Giuliani for buying the department radios that were known to malfunction. When department commanders gave an order to evacuate the north tower of the World Trade Center, but firefighters were unable to hear the order because of the faulty radios and died in the building, the video alleges. Firefighters had nearly an hour to get out of the building after the first call came through at 9:32 a.m., at the same time New York police officers were evacuating the building. "Not a single cop was lost in that building. Why was that?" asked retired Chief of Safety Alexander Santora. "Because they had gotten the word to get out. Our radios weren't working." The firefighters say Giuliani was disgraceful in telling the 9/11 Commission that firefighters died in the building because they ignored the evacuation order. The video also attacks the former mayor for putting his emergency command center at Building 7 of the World Trade Center, which was known to be a terrorist target since it was first attacked in 1993. In the aftermath of the terror attacks, firefighters set to recovering those who had been lost, but the video implies that Giuliani was concerned only with recovering $200 million worth of gold. He ordered recovery efforts to stop as soon as the gold was recovered, while 242 firefighters and countless other civilians remained buried in the rubble, according to the video. Giuliani's campaign issued a response to the firefighters' video before it even was posted online, releasing a statement from retired New York firefighter Lee Ielpi, who said the firefighters "have once again taken the low road in a move clearly out of step with their membership." The campaign accuses the firefighters' union of engaging in purely partisan attacks. But one of the unions whose members appear in the video, Local 94, endorsed President Bush in 2004. Since rocketing to international prominence after 9/11, Giuliani has raked in more than $11 million through book and speaking fees related to the terror attacks. The firefighters say his portrait of leadership is ill founded. "We did need radios that worked; we didn't have them. We did need proper respiratory protection; he didn't give it to us," said Steve Cassidy, president of a New York firefighters union Local 94. "The things that we needed to do our job even better, we didn't have, because of his administration."
geggy Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 520	Last edited by geggy; 11th July 2007 at 04:53 PM.

11th July 2007, 04:57 PM	#2
Alareth Expert Expertologist Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 6,679	374?
	__________________ Pixelated Reality \| Alareth Does Art! Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak

11th July 2007, 05:25 PM	#3
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	I've asked that this be moved to politics.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

11th July 2007, 06:37 PM	#5
Revolutionary91 Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 838	TAM as someone who dislikes CTs that disrespect firefighters do you condone Guilianis treatment of them?
Revolutionary91 Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 838

11th July 2007, 07:01 PM	#7
Anti-sophist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,542	This seems entirely off-topic for CT.
	__________________ A witty saying proves nothing. -Voltaire

11th July 2007, 06:35 PM	#4
T.A.M. Keeper of the Kool-Vax Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Far East...of Canada Posts: 20,816	ah give him a break, I mean 374 posts, and still nothing works...not much left but something only "slightly" related to 9/11 CTs...lol TAM

11th July 2007, 06:39 PM	#6
T.A.M. Keeper of the Kool-Vax Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Far East...of Canada Posts: 20,816	If Guiliani has treated the firefighters in anyway with disrepect or cruelly, than NO I do not agree with that. If he has denied or hampered efforts to have them compensated for injuries or mental health issues as a result of 9/11, than NO I do not support this. TAM

11th July 2007, 07:02 PM	#8
Devil's Advocate Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In the corner of a circle. Posts: 325	I want to see the video. I never really cared much for Rudy, I always felt he was playing up the 'hero' role he was given from 9/11. And him even implying U.S. policy played no part in the 9/11 attacks shows that he is either completely clueless, or he is a liar.

11th July 2007, 07:25 PM	#9
qarnos Cold-hearted skeptic Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Melbourne, Austrylia Posts: 1,985	Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate I want to see the video. I never really cared much for Rudy, I always felt he was playing up the 'hero' role he was given from 9/11. And him even implying U.S. policy played no part in the 9/11 attacks shows that he is either completely clueless, or he is a liar. He's got nothing on William Rodriguez.
	__________________ "In the twenty years since the Chernobyl tragedy, the world's worst nuclear accident, there have been nearly [FILL IN ALARMIST AND ARMAGEDDONIST FACTOID HERE]" - Greenpeace press release.

11th July 2007, 07:36 PM	#10
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,947	Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate I want to see the video. I never really cared much for Rudy, I always felt he was playing up the 'hero' role he was given from 9/11. And him even implying U.S. policy played no part in the 9/11 attacks shows that he is either completely clueless, or he is a liar. I trust that you are not implying that the US should let its' policies be determined by sub-human slime (other, that is, except for a policy of eliminating it root and branch by any available means).
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,947

11th July 2007, 07:44 PM	#11
CptColumbo Just One More Question Join Date: May 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 9,130	If true (emphasis on if), it really doesn't change my opinion of Giuliani very much. This should really be in Politics.
	__________________ I've been involved in a lot of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader.--Creed, "The Office" The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be only found in the minds of men. Prejudices and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own.--Rod Serling

11th July 2007, 08:22 PM	#12
60hzxtl Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 698	Move this to politics. And I happen to have heard these interviews in their entirety. You should hear what the FDNY members have to say about the CT crowd!
	__________________ Loose Change, own all the versions!

11th July 2007, 08:27 PM	#13
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,545	But.....but......but.......what if it IS a conspiracy? Wouldn't it belong here then? Nah!!!!!!

11th July 2007, 08:27 PM	#14
Devil's Advocate Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In the corner of a circle. Posts: 325	Originally Posted by fuelair I trust that you are not implying that the US should let its' policies be determined by sub-human slime (other, that is, except for a policy of eliminating it root and branch by any available means). I am in no way talking about the dictation of policy, I am talking about the result of said policy(s). Change perspective and propaganda for a moment and how do the radicals see the United States with regard to the policy(s). A Christian nation attacks Muslim nations for decades. (Of course not non stop, but remember who's eyes you are seeing through) They support coups to overthrow leaders of other Muslim nations to install pro-U.S. puppet regimes. Sanction's against Iraq lead to how many civilian deaths? The U.S. supports and arms their greatest enemy, Israel, in the illegal occupation of Palestinian land. It is blow back. And to say the terrorists want to attack the U.S. because we are free is the worst kind of lie. You cannot allow radicals to dictate you foreign policy, no. But you cannot deny that said policy will not have blow back in one form or another. And to turn it around and claim that they hate you for a completely unrealistic reason(s) proves that someone is either completely ignorant, or a liar. (spelling champion edits...aha)
	Last edited by Devil's Advocate; 11th July 2007 at 08:29 PM.

11th July 2007, 10:46 PM	#15
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 28,371	Yes, I agree that this belongs in Politics etc. It's the BBC News top story at the moment: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6294198.stm
	__________________ Are you an ex-Truther? Please share your story. ~ The Australasian Skeptics Forum.

12th July 2007, 12:19 AM	#16
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831

12th July 2007, 12:55 AM	#17
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 28,371	Originally Posted by Pardalis Yep.
	__________________ Are you an ex-Truther? Please share your story. ~ The Australasian Skeptics Forum.

12th July 2007, 01:57 AM	#18
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,943	Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate I am in no way talking about the dictation of policy, I am talking about the result of said policy(s). Change perspective and propaganda for a moment and how do the radicals see the United States with regard to the policy(s). A Christian nation attacks Muslim nations for decades. (Of course not non stop, but remember who's eyes you are seeing through) If the attacks were religiously motivated the radicals might have a leg to stand on here. But, because the attacks were not religiously motivated, to see them as such is stupid. Iraq, essentially a secular nation under the Bath party, had agreed to the no fly zones, they routinely broke them, they paid the price for it, and I won't loose any sleep over it. Quote: They support coups to overthrow leaders of other Muslim nations to install pro-U.S. puppet regimes. I'm not going to defend the US doing this however I will ask how many other nations have done this? The correct answer, of course, is many. The US is not alone in doing such things no matter what leftist radicals on university campuses might say. At the same time this doesn't mean such actions are automatically reasonable due to the greater enemy of the USSR no matter what right wing radicals might say. Quote: Sanction's against Iraq lead to how many civilian deaths? Iraq's government had the power to get those sanctions lifted anytime they wanted. They refused. As for the impact on civilians, there was an oil for food program that was supposed to help them but didn't due to corruption in Iraq and at the UN. Blaming the US for UN imposed sanctions and then the aftermath of a botched UN program seems like misplaced outrage. Quote: The U.S. supports and arms their greatest enemy, Israel, in the illegal occupation of Palestinian land. When the Palestinians recognize Isreal's right to exist alongside them, and the Jewish peoples right to live period, I might shed a tear for them. Quote: It is blow back. London getting bombed during the blitz was "blow back" for not giving in to Hitler and letting him invade Poland and then the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, France........ anyways, yeah, not giving into unreasonable demands by unreasonable people might cause "blow back" as history has shown. Quote: And to say the terrorists want to attack the U.S. because we are free is the worst kind of lie. Doesn't mean they were attacking for sound, reasonable and altruistic reasons either. Quote: You cannot allow radicals to dictate you foreign policy, no. On this we agree. Quote: But you cannot deny that said policy will not have blow back in one form or another. Standing up to hate filled and violent people does have consequences, that is true, as I have previously stated. Quote: And to turn it around and claim that they hate you for a completely unrealistic reason(s) proves that someone is either completely ignorant, or a liar. (spelling champion edits...aha) Well I've never claimed they hate me for my freedoms. However they sure have demonstrated that they don't want the freedoms I enjoy where they are. Cheers.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

12th July 2007, 02:40 AM	#19
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,890	Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate I am in no way talking about the dictation of policy, I am talking about the result of said policy(s). Change perspective and propaganda for a moment and how do the radicals see the United States with regard to the policy(s). A Christian nation attacks Muslim nations for decades. (Of course not non stop, but remember who's eyes you are seeing through) They support coups to overthrow leaders of other Muslim nations to install pro-U.S. puppet regimes. Sanction's against Iraq lead to how many civilian deaths? The U.S. supports and arms their greatest enemy, Israel, in the illegal occupation of Palestinian land. It is blow back. No. It is a group who wishes global domination and wishes to keep the US out of lands like Mecca, lands that are currently occupied. A 'revenge attack' it isn't. Question: What were the Bali bombings about? Quote: And to say the terrorists want to attack the U.S. because we are free is the worst kind of lie. 'If we look at the sources and foundations of modern ways of living, it becomes clear that the whole world is steeped in Jahiliyyah, [Ignorance of the Divine guidance] and all the marvellous material comforts and high-level inventions do not diminish this ignorance. This Jahiliyyah is based on rebellion against God's sovereignty on earth. It transfers to man one of the greatest attributes of God, namely sovereignty, and makes some men lords over others. It is now not in that simple and primitive form of the ancient Jahiliyyah, but takes the form of claiming that the right to create values, to legislate rules of collective behavior, and to choose any way of life rests with men, without regard to what God has prescribed. The result of this rebellion against the authority of God is the oppression of His creatures. Thus the humiliation of the common man under the communist systems and the exploitation of individuals and nations due to greed for wealth and imperialism under the capitalist systems are but a corollary of rebellion against God's authority and the denial of the dignity of man given to him by God. In this respect, Islam's way of life is unique, for in systems other that Islam, some people worship others in some form or or another. Only in the Islamic way of life do all men become free from the servitude of some men to others and devote themselves to the worship of God alone, deriving guidance from Him alone, and bowing before Him alone. ' -Qutb 'Your democratically-elected government continues to commit atrocities against my people, and your support for them makes you directly responsible.' - Mohammed Sidique Khan (See there he identifies Brits as a 'You', despite being British himself. Because he sees himself as Muslim before all else).

12th July 2007, 03:17 AM	#20
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,890	'It is necessary that there should be a vanguard which sets out with this determination and then keeps walking on the path, marching through the vast ocean of Jahiliyyah which has encompassed the entire world. ' -Qutb

12th July 2007, 05:05 AM	#21
geggy Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 520	Reason why I posted this in CT forum is because "debunkers" have been parroting the rudy's lie that he gave evacuation orders to the firefighters inside the towers when they said otherwise. I've always been skepitcal of the incompetence theory because it seem to have pay off for rudy as well as the bush administration big time, especially that they have been abusing the event of 911 for the reason of financial and political expediency. They've proven themselves to be opportunists and I often question how much they knew what was coming preceding to 911 and if they wanted it to happen because they saw it as an opportunity, ie. able danger, arrest of moussaoui, project bojinka, etc. While I applaud the firefighters for coming out and exposing rudy's false image with their new website, I think they have failed to recognize that.
geggy Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 520

12th July 2007, 06:28 AM	#22
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,258	Originally Posted by Gravy I've asked that this be moved to politics. Gravy, this looks to be the same issue Sentinel was usually harping about: bad C2, bad radios, dead people thanks to bad communications. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

12th July 2007, 06:37 AM	#23
60hzxtl Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 698	Originally Posted by geggy Reason why I posted this in CT forum is because "debunkers" have been parroting the rudy's lie that he gave evacuation orders to the firefighters inside the towers when they said otherwise. Evacuation orders were given - by the FDNY - and were not heard over the radios - Rudy was not micromanaging the event - no matter what you think. Rudy's testimony had to do with FDNY ignoring the orders to evacuate, and staying with the injured - (e.g. Lt. Patrick Brown, who died in the WTC - his last transmission was that he had injured and was going to attempt to bring them to safety. Paddy was a hell of a guy - I rode with him for a week at Rescue 1, in 1991. ) in this video Rudy is portrayed as saving his own reputation over that fact.
	__________________ Loose Change, own all the versions!

12th July 2007, 06:58 AM	#24
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,426	This smells swift boat-y to me. I suggest checking their claims before trusting what they say.

12th July 2007, 07:18 AM	#25
60hzxtl Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 698	Originally Posted by Upchurch This smells swift boat-y to me. I suggest checking their claims before trusting what they say. What they say is factual - it's just wildly out of context - The union was just as responsible for the radio situation as the Mayor was - it was just that Rudy made the decision, not the union, to buy the new radios. Had the Union been involved with picking the vendor, there would have been the opportunity for kick backs - the Union is carrying that grudge into politics, using the emotions of those who lost family and co workers there.
	__________________ Loose Change, own all the versions!

12th July 2007, 07:30 AM	#26
Alt+F4 diabolical globalist Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Department of Abandoned Places Posts: 9,780	Originally Posted by 60hzxtl What they say is factual - it's just wildly out of context - The union was just as responsible for the radio situation as the Mayor was - it was just that Rudy made the decision, not the union, to buy the new radios. Had the Union been involved with picking the vendor, there would have been the opportunity for kick backs - the Union is carrying that grudge into politics, using the emotions of those who lost family and co workers there. Do you have any proof that the union in question (Uniformed Firefighters Association) has ever been engaged in a kickback scheme? Of course the FDNY has to take some responsibility for the radios but then the head of the UFA isn't running for President.
	__________________ "My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky

12th July 2007, 07:38 AM	#27
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	And remember that in science, you don't question the motives, you address the facts. But in politics, 90% of the time the facts are tailored to support the motives. These people want somebody who, purely coincidentally, is not Giuliani, to win the next presidential election. And they must be far distant from this person (Hillary, Obama, or even just some generalized Democrat) lest the meanness of the attack rub off on the candidate, to the candidate's detriment, given the love people have for Rudy. "Follow the money..."
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

12th July 2007, 07:48 AM	#28
60hzxtl Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 698	Originally Posted by Alt+F4 Do you have any proof that the union in question (Uniformed Firefighters Association) has ever been engaged in a kickback scheme? I have only the hearsay evidence from the legal end of the former Mayor's office, as to why the city short circuited (no pun intended) the approval process. I don't read it as cya. I have some first hand knowledge about the content of the unedited interviews used in this video. Such is politics. The radios were a mess. A mess made with good intentions, not bad leadership. And about those interviews? I wish I could quote them about the CT idiots.
	__________________ Loose Change, own all the versions!

12th July 2007, 10:33 AM	#29
davefoc Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: orange country, california Posts: 7,255	The firefighter's ad is a disgusting hit piece. I made it a little bit more than half way through before listening to emotional, potentially uninformed attacks on Giuliani by people who had lost family members in the WTC was more than I felt like listening to for the purpose of trying to understand the truth about this. There seem to be two criticisms of Giuliani here: 1. He chose to put the emergency control center in the basement of the WTC against the advice of others and that turned out to be a bad decision. OK, what were the alternatives? What were the tradeoffs? Is there any evidence that Giuliani made the decision for political or other self serving reasons? 2. Giuliani's administration selected new radios and failed to test them adequately. He is also accused of acquiring the radios with a no-bid contract. If Giuliani selected the radios for political purposes or based on some kind of bribery Giuliani at the minimum is guilty of manslaughter. What is the evidence that he did this? Were there obvious better choices available? What was Giuliani's justification for the decision and was that justification plausible? I don't know the answer to any of the above. I looked around a bit on the web and didn't find anything relevant except for reports of the firefighter's union attacks. At this point, the certainty is that Giuliani will be damaged by the attacks regardless of the validity of the attacks. Interestingly, even if Giuliani is completely culpable here or completely innocent the damage to his campaign will be about the same I suspect. Truth in this kind of thing doesn't seem to be all that important with regard to the effect on a candidates election chances.

12th July 2007, 11:45 AM	#30
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,947	If news reports since (tv CNN, etc.) of the data are correct, police radios functioned fine and were NOT the type the firefighters had - so looks like there was at least one better type. Second, one of the items involves bad timing at best - again, if true - on one of the newscasts one of the people involved in making the tape spoke of the search for missing firefighters/their remains halted right after all the gold had been removed - rather than continuing as had been said to happen prior (Giuliani supposedly assured firefighters they would be hunting for all the remains before just bulldozing everything to get on with straight cleanup, but as soon as gold bars from somewhere in the wreckage were found and removed he said to let the cleanup start. If true...). Obviously, I do not know whether this is true or not, but it should be easy to check out from reports/records of the period it happened in.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,947

12th July 2007, 11:50 AM	#31
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Anything to keep the culpability away from Al Qaeda... What a topsy-turvy world.

12th July 2007, 03:56 PM	#32
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Originally Posted by Upchurch This smells swift boat-y to me. To be truely swifty in my opinion, it needs a nefarious financier. Is there one?
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

12th July 2007, 07:12 PM	#33
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,426	Originally Posted by corplinx To be truely swifty in my opinion, it needs a nefarious financier. Is there one? Dunno. I'm just saying my skepti-sense is tingling. I think the determining factor is less the nefarious financier so much as a nefarious disregard for fact in favor defeating the target. eta: The site appears to be registered to the IAFF, fwiw.
	Last edited by Upchurch; 12th July 2007 at 07:30 PM.

12th July 2007, 07:47 PM	#34
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Originally Posted by davefoc The firefighter's ad is a disgusting hit piece. I made it a little bit more than half way through before listening to emotional, potentially uninformed attacks on Giuliani by people who had lost family members in the WTC was more than I felt like listening to for the purpose of trying to understand the truth about this. There seem to be two criticisms of Giuliani here: 1. He chose to put the emergency control center in the basement of the WTC against the advice of others and that turned out to be a bad decision. OK, what were the alternatives? What were the tradeoffs? Is there any evidence that Giuliani made the decision for political or other self serving reasons? 2. Giuliani's administration selected new radios and failed to test them adequately. He is also accused of acquiring the radios with a no-bid contract. If Giuliani selected the radios for political purposes or based on some kind of bribery Giuliani at the minimum is guilty of manslaughter. What is the evidence that he did this? Were there obvious better choices available? What was Giuliani's justification for the decision and was that justification plausible? I don't know the answer to any of the above. I looked around a bit on the web and didn't find anything relevant except for reports of the firefighter's union attacks. At this point, the certainty is that Giuliani will be damaged by the attacks regardless of the validity of the attacks. Interestingly, even if Giuliani is completely culpable here or completely innocent the damage to his campaign will be about the same I suspect. Truth in this kind of thing doesn't seem to be all that important with regard to the effect on a candidates election chances. Exactly. Bravo. I smell political BS, but can't say, just a hunch.

12th July 2007, 07:53 PM	#35
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Originally Posted by Beerina These people want somebody who, purely coincidentally, is not Giuliani, to win the next presidential election. Tell me ... when you read the minds of the 280,000 members of the IAFF and discovered that they all want the same President, did you also find out who their chosen candidate was? Quote: And they must be far distant from this person (Hillary, Obama, or even just some generalized Democrat) ... Ah, evidently not. But you're sure it's a Democrat, yes? From the OP: "The campaign accuses the firefighters' union of engaging in purely partisan attacks. But one of the unions whose members appear in the video, Local 94, endorsed President Bush in 2004." Liberals can be cunning like that. Quote: "Follow the money..." And this is where your CT breaks down, isn't it? If you have any evidence of a money trail between one of Giuliani's rivals (why a Democrat?) and the International Association of Fire Fighters (founded 1918, membership 280,000 --- Swift Boat Idiots For Chimps they are not) then please feel free to share it with us.