IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags fire behavior , fire behaviour , flash over , heat transfer

Reply
Old 17th July 2007, 04:54 PM   #1
NYCEMT86
Graduate Poster
 
NYCEMT86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,091
Basic Principles of Fire Behavior

More and more I see CTs doubting fire as a culprit or contributor to the Collapse, though its not the mechanism of the collapse, it did play a large role the collapse. Well lets look at some basic principles of fire behavior, which all firefighters learn within the first week of any academy in the United States. Also I would like to mention the Essential Firefighting book also know as the bible has 4 editions, the last edition was published in 1998, with only minor additions to the text since 9/11.


Principle 1.) The Fire Triangle or Tetrahedron, which includes Heat, Fuel, Oxygen, and Chain Reaction (Chain Reaction is only in the Tetrahedron). If you remove one of this 4 items, the fire cannot survive. This is the very baseline in which all fires are fought and extinguished.

Principle 2.) Method of Heat Transfer. There is Direct Flame Contact, which is self explanatory fire touching an object. There is Convection, which is when heat is transfered through air or liquid. Conduction, heat transfered through one body to another by direct contact or by a medium, such as lets just say a piece of steel. Radiation, the transfer of heat through waves (number one cause of any exposure fire...oh for those who don't know an exposure is a building, floor, or area that is close to the fire and is in danger of catching fire as well)

Principle 3.) Stages Fire Growth. It starts off with an Ignition, where the Ignition temperature is reached. The ignition temperature is lowest temperature that any combustible will catch fire, then it will reach the Flame Point which is the temperature at which it will continue to burn after ignition for at least 5 seconds. Then there is Growth as more oxygen is burned up and the fire gets hotter. Fully involved is the climax of the fire, its usually reached right after the flash point which is the lowest temperature at which a material will emit vapor combustible in air mixture. Higher than Flame point of same material. This will cause a Flash Over, the point where unburned combustible materials reach their fire point and simultaneously ignite in a closed space, causing a roll over. (Flash Over will be continued). Then there is decay, where the fire starts to die out. A fire that has been starved of oxygen may cause a backdraft.

Principle 4.) Thermal Layering. When we were all kids we were told to do what in a fire? To get low and crawl right? Thats because heat rises, what else happens? Oxygen is pushed to the ground and its cooler as well. Now in Thermal Layering, there are 3 different layers. The top level being the ceiling is the Extreme Heat layer that is where all the superheated gases collect and the highest temperatures, the middle layer is Moderate Heat layer obviously lower temperature then the Extreme layer but warmer then the last layer, the Lower Heat level where the temperatures are cooler.

To get a better idea of this process, take a lighter, put your finger level with the top of the lighter as close as you can get to the flame WITHOUT burning yourself, then go from the top down and close as you can. Which is hotter?


Principle 5.) Flash Over as I listed before above a flash over is the point where unburned combustible materials reach their fire point and simultaneously ignite in a closed space, causing a roll over. The effects of a Flash Over? Firefighters is exposed to temperatures from 1000* to 1500*F according to the Time Temperature Curve. A person can experience extreme pain on any unprotected skin from temperatures of 280* to 320*F. Firefighters only have 2 seconds to escape from a Flash Over, the average firefighter can crawl only 2.5 ft per Second. It is one of the most deadly encounters a firefighter will face.


So how do these principles I have listed above apply to the WTC? Well just the Growth cycle alone shows that it can cause temperatures in excess of 1000*F. With that kind of exposure the strength of steel will rapidly decrease causing sagging which pull in on the exterior wall, which causes a inward-outward collapse then pancaking of the floors (I will discuss more on steel in my next thread). The transfer of that kind of temperature through the steel members, including the remaining steel members covered by fire proof coating pieces can cause the steel to weaken. CTs claim that the flames weren't hot enough, thats fine, its not the flame that is hottest part of a fire. Remember the Extreme Heat Layer is the hottest part in a fire especially in the fully involved stage of growth, temperatures of over 1,200* F can be reached and the oxygen supply can be greatly diminished. With the temperature being this high, one breath of the superheated gases can sear the lungs.



If you want sources I will post links later on in the thread. (No links till my 15th post) but until then, my best source is the Essentials of Firefighting published by IFSTA. It is the bible and all fundamental basics of all firefighting. All the words underlined, you can research those alone and get a larger understanding for the science behind fire behavior. I hope this has helped in anyway.

My next thread will be on Basic Principles of Building Construction and Collapse.

Last edited by NYCEMT86; 17th July 2007 at 05:04 PM.
NYCEMT86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2007, 05:04 PM   #2
peteweaver
Graduate Poster
 
peteweaver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,006
This site on structural fire engineering is well worth a look: http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/pro...res/strucfire/

Particularly annoying for CT's is the sites references to steel:
http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/pro...el/default.htm
peteweaver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2007, 05:09 PM   #3
T.A.M.
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
Nice post NYC...you learn something new every day.

TAM
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2007, 05:19 PM   #4
ElMondoHummus
0.25 short of being half-witted
 
ElMondoHummus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole
Posts: 12,282
Finally! Someone with Fire and Structure expertise is here!

Anyway, for a long time now I've said that the conspiracy fantasy "movement" has been missing certain areas of expertise, with structural engineering, and fire and structure engineering being the most notable ones (Anyone want to tell what me the proper name of that field is? I only know it exists from the NIST FAQ Investigation Team page). Understanding how fires affect buildings seems to me to be a centrally important field of knowledge, and misunderstanding it is what leads to the insistance that explosives must have been used to topple the #s 1, 2, and 7 towers.

Anyway, I'm glad someone here has that knowledge.
ElMondoHummus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2007, 05:38 PM   #5
NYCEMT86
Graduate Poster
 
NYCEMT86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,091
The one thing that CTs don't understand is that a fire can cause its own explosions, which is usually called Fire Gas Ignition or Fire Gas Explosion. A smoke explosion being one of them. A smoke explosion is when you have a room filled with smoke that can be ignited with something as simple as a piece of paper on fire. Then there is a Flash Fire, which is smoke in a hallway and is then ignited by a flame trying to spread outside a room into that hallway. Thats why firefighters close as many doors as they can or tell people to close the door of the room that is on fire because one it slows the spread of fire down, second because a flash fire can occur. Backdrafts and flashovers are also FGIs. Its not that impossible for this to happen.

The fundamentals of a FGI is:
1.) A smoke layer with unburned particles of combustion and heated gases within their flammable limits.
2.) The flammable mixture needs to come in contact with any ignition source. Except when superheated gases auto-ignite as they mix with an air supply like a doorways, windows, adjoining hallways or rooms, and stairwells.
3.) There must be enough oxygen to support combustion.


Explosions without the conventional explosives, the thing that differs is its a natural process of any fire. These events can occur at any fire. That could be exactly what eyewitnesses heard before the collapse maybe not. Its a strong possibility that it could have for the time that the fires were burning in each of the towers.
NYCEMT86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2007, 07:18 PM   #6
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,690
Originally Posted by NYCEMT86 View Post
The fundamentals of a FGI is:
1.) A smoke layer with unburned particles of combustion and heated gases within their flammable limits.
2.) The flammable mixture needs to come in contact with any ignition source. Except when superheated gases auto-ignite as they mix with an air supply like a doorways, windows, adjoining hallways or rooms, and stairwells.
3.) There must be enough oxygen to support combustion.


This sounds similar to a dust explosion. Sawdust as an explosive, anyone?
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2007, 07:35 PM   #7
LashL
Goddess of Legaltainment™
 
LashL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 36,472
Welcome to the sub-forum, NYCEMT86.

LashL is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2007, 08:28 PM   #8
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 24,921
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
This sounds similar to a dust explosion. Sawdust as an explosive, anyone?
Well flour suspened in the air certainly is.

Were the twin towers filled with flour?
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2007, 09:20 PM   #9
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
I should think that ramming an aircraft full of fuel into a building at several hundred miles per hour, slicing heating and ventilating shafts and cracking a few walls and impinging upon elevator shafts and utility conduits would occassion a lot of such events, even in the basement of the building so impacted.

Don't discount other possible sources of secondary explosions, like fire extinguishers and compressed air cans.

Ever see a computer monitor cook off? Or an emergency lighting battery?

They can be impressive.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2007, 09:25 PM   #10
ElMondoHummus
0.25 short of being half-witted
 
ElMondoHummus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole
Posts: 12,282
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post

Ever see a computer monitor cook off? Or an emergency lighting battery?

They can be impressive.

Computer monitor, yes, specifically the capacitors in it. And it scared the hell outta me. Damn thing sounded like someone set off a firework - as in one of those real sky flying fireworks - inside the building.
ElMondoHummus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2007, 10:53 PM   #11
BeAChooser
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 11,716
Are you aware of this?

http://www.aisc.org/Content/ContentG...ldingsFire.pdf
BeAChooser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 12:34 AM   #12
Sword_Of_Truth
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 11,494
When I first saw "NYCEMT" in the user name, the first thing that popped into my head was "Dear Lord let this not be 'Mike'."

Glad to see you are actually a sane person, NYC. Welcome to the goat rodeo

I look forward to reading more of your insights as a 1st responder.
Sword_Of_Truth is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 02:33 AM   #13
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 31,398
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
....
Don't discount other possible sources of secondary explosions, like fire extinguishers and compressed air cans.
...
I've often wondered about propane gas bottles at WTC.
I've never seen reference to piped gas there, and I assume there was none (for now).
Professional chefs hate electric cookers, and those Towers must have had many restaurants and cafeterias. Did they cook using bottled gas?
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 02:44 AM   #14
Sword_Of_Truth
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 11,494
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I've often wondered about propane gas bottles at WTC.
I've never seen reference to piped gas there, and I assume there was none (for now).
Professional chefs hate electric cookers, and those Towers must have had many restaurants and cafeterias. Did they cook using bottled gas?
If the gas was piped in rather than in bottles, sections of pipe with live gas in them and the valves in the off position would still be prone to explosion in a fire, wouldn't they?

With the valve closed, a live gas line simply becomes a long narrow tank, doesn't it?

Last edited by Sword_Of_Truth; 18th July 2007 at 02:50 AM.
Sword_Of_Truth is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 03:19 AM   #15
ref
Master Poster
 
ref's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
Welcome to the forum, and nice posts NYCEMT86
__________________
9/11 Guide homepage

Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit. - Chief Daniel Nigro
ref is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 03:49 AM   #16
Alferd_Packer
Philosopher
 
Alferd_Packer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,746
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I've often wondered about propane gas bottles at WTC.
I've never seen reference to piped gas there, and I assume there was none (for now).
Professional chefs hate electric cookers, and those Towers must have had many restaurants and cafeterias. Did they cook using bottled gas?
The "Windows of the World" was the only one above the impact zone that I konw of, and I can't see why it wouldn't have had a gas stove.

Also, there were many gas cylnders used by maintenance and contractors in the facilites. Most of those would have been in the basements but that doesn't mean that they were, damaged and leaking in the rubble pile afterwards.

http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/osw/meeting/pdf02/kahnp.pdf
Alferd_Packer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 07:18 AM   #17
Alferd_Packer
Philosopher
 
Alferd_Packer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,746
BTW, How many of the truthers that claim a jet fuel flame can not exceed a certain temperature are familiar with the concept of standard temperature and pressure in relation to reference values.
Alferd_Packer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 10:06 AM   #18
NYCEMT86
Graduate Poster
 
NYCEMT86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Don't discount other possible sources of secondary explosions, like fire extinguishers and compressed air cans.
Your absolutely right about other sources of secondary explosions. Any compressed container or computer monitors.

My point was that within the fire its self, explosions can occur and that it doesn't need any additional device.
NYCEMT86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 10:20 AM   #19
NYCEMT86
Graduate Poster
 
NYCEMT86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
BTW, How many of the truthers that claim a jet fuel flame can not exceed a certain temperature are familiar with the concept of standard temperature and pressure in relation to reference values.
The truthers forget that there were many combustibles in an office building, paper being the best low point ignition source the fuel could and did raise the temperature of those offices. Even though the fuel has been burned out, now you have ordinary combustibles on fire and spreading which will continue to raise the temperature.


Best example I can think of is a charcoal grill. You add the lighter fluid to the grill, the fuel only burns at a certain temperature but what happens to the charcoal? It starts to ignite and raise the temperature even further. Thats why we add the charcoal and not just cook off the lighter fluid.
NYCEMT86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 10:34 AM   #20
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto;2777836[QUOTE
]Originally Posted by Horatius
This sounds similar to a dust explosion. Sawdust as an explosive, anyone?
Well flour suspened in the air certainly is.
Were the twin towers filled with flour? Well flour suspened in the air certainly is.

Were the twin towers filled with flour? [/quote]


In the 1960's the flour mill in my town burned down. There was absolutly nothing the fire dept coould do other than evacuate nearby buildings and pour water on them to prevent fire spreading to them.

The fire started when a construction crew failed to properly ventilate a room before starting a welding job. There was a dust (flour) explosion that quickly had the entire 6 storey building on fire (it took less than 10 minutes). The concrete structure failed and collapsed within a few hours.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 10:38 AM   #21
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
"Truthers" also ignore the O2 bottles that were on the aircraft. Add extra oxygen to any fire and you increase the heat output. Any bottle that survived the initial crash would cook off the pressure relief valve resulting in either a much enhanced fire proximate to the bottle, or if in an area full of unignited smoke gases at ignition temp, an explosion as the gases suddenly have oxygen.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 10:56 AM   #22
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
 
aggle-rithm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 15,334
Originally Posted by NYCEMT86 View Post
The truthers forget that there were many combustibles in an office building, paper being the best low point ignition source the fuel could and did raise the temperature of those offices.
I used to work at IBM delivering office supplies. Until you have actually delivered some, you have no idea how much paper goes into a large office building on a regular basis -- usually 1/2 ton at a time, to each copier room.
__________________
To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion.

Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.
aggle-rithm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 02:07 PM   #23
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
I used to work at IBM delivering office supplies. Until you have actually delivered some, you have no idea how much paper goes into a large office building on a regular basis -- usually 1/2 ton at a time, to each copier room.
The co. I work for just rearranged who was in each office. You never realize how much paper is in an office until called upon to move full files cabinets around.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 02:11 PM   #24
NYCEMT86
Graduate Poster
 
NYCEMT86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,091
You get a good sense of how much paper is really in an office when you do overhaul after an office fire. Moving fully packed filing cabinets to get to the wall behind it, sucks!
NYCEMT86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 02:22 PM   #25
cloudshipsrule
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,170
Quote:
you have no idea how much paper goes into a large office building on a regular basis -- usually 1/2 ton at a time, to each copier room

[unintelligible sarcasm]
Fire has never melted steel paper in a skyscraper. NEVER!
[/unintelligible sarcasm]
cloudshipsrule is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 04:08 PM   #26
NYCEMT86
Graduate Poster
 
NYCEMT86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,091
[Sarcasm Response]
Thats because everyone knows the only thing that can destroy steel paper is the death star! Darth Vader knew the neocons were harboring the remaining jedi in tower 1 and 2 as long as the rebel plans in WTC 7. When I say rebel I mean the government shills.
[/Sarcasm end]
NYCEMT86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 07:36 PM   #27
njslim
Graduate Poster
 
njslim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,077
The "Windows of the World" was the only one above the impact zone that I konw of, and I can't see why it wouldn't have had a gas stove.


Because of fire concerns with running a large natural gas pipe through the
building all the cooking for WINDOWS ON THE WORLD was done in the
basement of North tower - food was then transported up by high speed
freight elevator.
njslim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 07:45 PM   #28
LashL
Goddess of Legaltainment™
 
LashL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 36,472
Originally Posted by njslim View Post
Because of fire concerns with running a large natural gas pipe through the building all the cooking for WINDOWS ON THE WORLD was done in the basement of North tower - food was then transported up by high speed freight elevator.
As I've said before, I learn something new here every day. I'd never heard that before about the WOTW kitchens being located in the basement of WTC1. On what basement level were the kitchens located, do you know? And can you elaborate on the size and location of the kitchens further?

Last edited by LashL; 18th July 2007 at 07:48 PM.
LashL is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2007, 08:19 PM   #29
BillyRayValentine
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 329
Originally Posted by NYCEMT86 View Post
The truthers forget that there were many combustibles in an office building, paper being the best low point ignition source the fuel could and did raise the temperature of those offices.
Yep, or they claim that even with these combustibles, the fires couldn't possibly have reached temps high enough to significantly weaken steel.

Now for today's news:

Quote:
Authorities have ruled out any chance that anyone on board the airliner survived. It will be difficult to recover the bodies because of the massive destruction caused by intense fire that officials said reached 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit (about 1,000 Celsius).

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americ...ash/index.html
This all transpired in a driving rainstorm, btw.
BillyRayValentine is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2007, 11:57 AM   #30
sts60
Illuminator
 
sts60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,095
Hi, NYCEMT86, we used the same (4th ed.) of the IFSTA book in our Essentials class.

The truthers forget that there were many combustibles in an office building, paper being the best low point ignition source the fuel could and did raise the temperature of those offices. Even though the fuel has been burned out, now you have ordinary combustibles on fire and spreading which will continue to raise the temperature.

The inventory of any modern office building includes not only lots and lots of paper, but also energy-dense synthetic carpets, furniture, and insulation. Such materials release an enormous amount of energy when they burn.

Best example I can think of is a charcoal grill. You add the lighter fluid to the grill, the fuel only burns at a certain temperature but what happens to the charcoal? It starts to ignite and raise the temperature even further. Thats why we add the charcoal and not just cook off the lighter fluid.

Eh, why bother? Just marinate the steaks in lighter fluid, and avoid that messy charcoal.

NYCEMT86:The truthers forget that there were many combustibles in an office building, paper being the best low point ignition source the fuel could and did raise the temperature of those offices.
BillyRayValentine:Yep, or they claim that even with these combustibles, the fires couldn't possibly have reached temps high enough to significantly weaken steel.

One of the things emphasized in fire classes is that steel not only gets weaker when it gets hot, but also expands. This can cause a steel beam to push or pull on other elements and cause them to fail, often by simply causing an element designed to be in compression to be placed under tension or vice versa.

I spent a fair amount of time on Bad Astronomy and Apollohoax trying to point such facts out to 9/11 CTs. (Like the one who insists that the FDNY guys going into the towers proves they weren't going to fall, because the FFs would have "known" if collapse was imminent. Or that dark black smoke from the towers meant the fires were "guttering" and "going out".) I've pretty much quit 9/11 threads due to time constraints (and exasperation), but wanted to drop in and echo some of NYCEMT86's comments.

Last edited by sts60; 20th July 2007 at 11:59 AM.
sts60 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2007, 12:22 PM   #31
NYCEMT86
Graduate Poster
 
NYCEMT86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,091
Sts60, thanks for the further additions to my thread.


Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Like the one who insists that the FDNY guys going into the towers proves they weren't going to fall, because the FFs would have "known" if collapse was imminent.
Size up is essential in any fire ground operation, the problem with 9/11 is that there was no substantial information coming about the true condition of the fire floors and impact point. Also the FDNY unfortunately didn't have the upgraded radio system or repeaters that they desperately needed after the first bombing of the WTC. Therefore the Incident Command couldn't get messages up to them and firefighters couldn't get messages down. Which tragically sealed many firefighters fate.

Last edited by NYCEMT86; 20th July 2007 at 01:54 PM.
NYCEMT86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2011, 06:52 AM   #32
triforcharity
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
Should I bump this thread for Randman?
triforcharity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2011, 07:22 AM   #33
Justin39640
Illuminator
 
Justin39640's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,202
Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Should I bump this thread for Randman?
You just did.
__________________
"I joined this forum to learn about the people who think that 9/11 was an inside job. I've learned that they believe nutty things and are not very good at explaining them." - FineWine
"The agencies involved with studying the WTC collapse no more needed to consider explosives than the police need to consider brain cancer in a shooting death." - ElMondoHummus
Justin39640 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2011, 07:27 AM   #34
triforcharity
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
Son of a **&^&^!! that Cat is playing Jedi Mind tricks with me again!!
triforcharity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th March 2011, 12:46 AM   #35
NYCEMT86
Graduate Poster
 
NYCEMT86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,091
Ahh one of my very first threads...so much I could add to this post, but I am drunk and truthers are still morons.
__________________
I bringth the Amber lamps

"The most beautiful four words in the common language is: I told you so." - Vidal
NYCEMT86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th March 2011, 12:51 AM   #36
ozeco41
Philosopher
 
ozeco41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 7,617
Originally Posted by NYCEMT86 View Post
Ahh one of my very first threads...so much I could add to this post, but I am drunk and truthers are still morons.
By tomorrow you will be sober. The truthers will still be.....

(apologies to WS Churchill and probably several other famous people who are alleged to have made analogous statements )
ozeco41 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2011, 07:40 AM   #37
Sabretooth
No Ordinary Rabbit
 
Sabretooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Wyoming, NY
Posts: 6,757
Here are videos for the live burn we did last summer.

It's interesting to watch the fire progression.

Part 1:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Part 2:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
--------------------------------------
Stop asking me about that stupid fruity cereal...that's the OTHER rabbit!

Sabretooth is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2011, 11:37 AM   #38
triforcharity
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
Very nice! I will watch them when I get home later. It is having a hard time playing them on my BlackBerry.

Cheers!

[i]Sent from my BlackBerry on the Sprint Network [/]
triforcharity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2011, 11:59 AM   #39
ElMondoHummus
0.25 short of being half-witted
 
ElMondoHummus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole
Posts: 12,282
Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
Here are videos for the live burn we did last summer.

It's interesting to watch the fire progression.

Part 1:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Part 2:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
You really need to quit bragging about your pyromaniacal arsonist tendencies.
__________________
"AND ZEPPELINS!!! We haven't even begun to talk about Zeppelins yet! Marauding inflatable Teutonic johnsons waggling their way across the sky! Indecent and flammable all at once."
ElMondoHummus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2011, 01:58 PM   #40
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
A little surprised that no Truther who knows nothing about fire behavior has shown up to argue with NTCEMT86 yet. But that will happen,and furnish much amusement.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:22 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.