Why do Christians lie about "eternal life"?

CplFerro · 18th July 2007, 01:14 PM

According to virtually all Christian sects, "believing" (whatever that means) in Jesus means the given person will be reward with eternal life. As the quote goes:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
--John 3:16

With their next breath, however, they say that unbelievers, sinners, anyone who doesn't make the cut, will be tortured eternally in hell.

My question is, why do they lie about the eternal life part? Someone in hell is going to feel pretty *********** alive, just not pleasantly alive. So, according to Christian dogma, everyone is doomed to have eternal life. The opposite of life is death, not eternal torture.

Why do religions lie?

Cpl Ferro

triadboy · 18th July 2007, 03:13 PM

I think they mean 'eternal life' is a matter of perspective. What kind of life is standing in lava up to your waist while being gang-raped by Hitler and Idi Amin.

Tony · 18th July 2007, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by triadboy

I think they mean 'eternal life' is a matter of perspective. What kind of life is standing in lava up to your waist while being gang-raped by Hitler and Idi Amin.

Good point. Of course, what kind of life is attending an eternal church services and constantly singing the praises of the dear leader? It seems that believers and non-believers alike are condemned to an eternity of torment; only one is going to suck worse than the other.

The Great Hairy One · 18th July 2007, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

Why do religions lie?

From their point of view, they are not lying.

Obviously, religious "truth" is entirely subjective. Speak to someone from a different religion, like a Hindu or Shinto, and they'll tell you something completely different.

Of course, the christian view of the "after-life" is not all that friendly and happy either. I've basically had christians admit that if you make it to their version of heaven, you need to be completely brain-wiped to actually enjoy yourself.

Cheers,
TGHO

Foster Zygote · 18th July 2007, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Hairy One

From their point of view, they are not lying.

Obviously, religious "truth" is entirely subjective. Speak to someone from a different religion, like a Hindu or Shinto, and they'll tell you something completely different.

Of course, the christian view of the "after-life" is not all that friendly and happy either. I've basically had christians admit that if you make it to their version of heaven, you need to be completely brain-wiped to actually enjoy yourself.

Cheers,
TGHO

I think it has to do with the mixing of different religious doctrines as well. Some Early Christian faiths (and their source faiths) felt that they would be saved from death as in "granted eternal life rather than extinction" while others felt that everyone would have eternal survival of the soul, but some would earn a reward in Heaven and the rest would be cast into Hell to forever listen to Pol Pot sing karaoke versions of Puberty Love from Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Both traditions got mixed together as the orthodox cannon was collected.

arthwollipot · 18th July 2007, 10:31 PM

And it's not even Christians. According to the Bible, Revelation 7:4, only 144,000 Jews are going to get into heaven and have eternal life. Presumably, the rest are going to either just die or get their eternal life in hell.

Liquid_Grace · 19th July 2007, 03:47 AM

You know, the OP makes an interesting point, and I hadn't actually thought of it that way, in all my years as a Christian. (Which I am not now, BTW.)

I guess that from an evangelical perspective, we all have a soul and therefore some part of us is eternal, but life without god is not really life.

I've had evangelicals tell me that hell is seperation from god, and that is a form of eternal death, so there you go.

But I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a lie, or a least, an attempt from those who really believe to misdirect the rest of us.

Cheers,
Grace

SirPhilip · 19th July 2007, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

Why do religions lie?

They don't, at least not about that part. The Old Testament was very clear about what the point of faith was. This theme of warring against the world was carried through the centuries. Immortality is the end condition of atheism, and eternal life is the goal of monotheism. Eternal life however, is not provided by nature, but by God alone, and this is central to Catholicism, Islam, and Judaism. It was a choice people ultimately had to make. Life with God, or to become like God.

Monotheistic religions are entirely supernatural and concerned with human ideals, not the world (it is the reason for so much confusion these days and a falling out so many people have). Naturalistic religions are not, their goals revolve around knowledge of it and independence from the human condition and the eventual annihilation of all human limitations, leaving only the capacity to know and observe as the goal. This self-annihilation is what is regarded as "eternal" death. To grasp this requires understanding how the evolved human form is actually a miniature version of the universe, and matter and space are also fundamentally infinite and eternal, which was the occult.

Damien Evans · 19th July 2007, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by SirPhilip

They don't, at least not about that part. The Old Testament was very clear about what the point of faith was. This theme of warring against the world was carried through the centuries. Immortality is the end condition of atheism, and eternal life is the goal of monotheism. Eternal life however, is not provided by nature, but by God alone, and this is central to Catholicism, Islam, and Judaism. It was a choice people ultimately had to make. Life with God, or to become like God.
(Snip)

Care to explain that statement?

Or did you mean to type immorality?

Beerina · 19th July 2007, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Tony

Good point. Of course, what kind of life is attending an eternal church services and constantly singing the praises of the dear leader?

I am informed that praising God in His direct presence is more pleasurable than being a 14 year old boy ejaculating for the very first time inside your hot 42 year old English teacher.

SirPhilip · 20th July 2007, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

Care to explain that statement? Or did you mean to type immorality?

No, although that equally applies in a sense. The primary driving behavior of living things are reproduction and self-preservation. It subconsciously underlies everything you do from wearing matching clothes to improving a skillset. Self preservation as a religious goal however, is the actual logical end of social darwinism, and it is fundamentally antisocial. Frequently you see in people pretending to have some occult power over nature (e.g Benny Hinn or Sylvia Browne being familiar examples here) a deceptive wholesomeness and cruel indifference underlying their behavior. This is in fact the very thing Catholicism, becoming like God, was set against.

YouBelieveWHAT? · 20th July 2007, 03:30 AM

Actually, Arthwollipot, the 144,000 is split into 12,000 for each of the Tribes of Israel.

Revelations also mentions that only male virgins need apply.

Now as God rather carelessly managed to lose 10 of the tribes, there may be cancellations available - if you hurry...

YBW

Charlie Monoxide · 20th July 2007, 12:02 PM

It seems a lot of the christians religions want to screw with your life in return for promises of a wonderful afterlife.

One fact I'm sure of, is that we get one life. Proof of any other lives has yet to be presented.

I'll enjoy this life without the superstitions, myths, and guilts that the various religions offer.

Charlie (thank me it's Friday and jesus be damned) Monoxide

fuelair · 20th July 2007, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by triadboy

I think they mean 'eternal life' is a matter of perspective. What kind of life is standing in lava up to your waist while being gang-raped by Hitler and Idi Amin.

I trust in that circumstance that Amin and Hitler (and many of their friends) would have permanent tours of duty in the barrel (old sea joke).

triadboy · 20th July 2007, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

I trust in that circumstance that Amin and Hitler (and many of their friends) would have permanent tours of duty in the barrel (old sea joke).

One-third of my military life was a sea joke. I was on a Poseidon submarine...a long, black tube full of seamen.
<rim shot>
"Thank you, I'll be here all week!"

MrFrankZito · 20th July 2007, 09:46 PM

They lie because they are deluded, after having been inculcated by parents, peers or sheer geography.

Conscious life after corporeal death is unscientific and unsupported by the evidence.

lolurigeller · 21st July 2007, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by triadboy

What kind of life is standing in lava up to your waist while being gang-raped by Hitler and Idi Amin.

LOL that's awesome.

qayak · 21st July 2007, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by triadboy

What kind of life is standing in lava up to your waist while being gang-raped by Hitler and Idi Amin.

That would apparently be heaven because hell is where bad people go to be punished. Hell would be a bunch of well endowed angels gangraping Hitler, Amin and you!

And that's something I could never figure out. If the devil is the one that actually punishes bad people, why does god get all the credit for morality? If I am going to hell, shouldn't I try to be really bad so I can sit at the right hand of satan? But wait a minute, the worse I am, the worse I get punished.

Okay, hell makes sense, heaven is off the "Not In A Million Eternities" scale.

triadboy · 21st July 2007, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

If I am going to hell, shouldn't I try to be really bad so I can sit at the right hand of satan?

So you're saying - if you are going to sin and go to hell anyway...why not just go for "Antichrist"? Enter hell as upper- management, instead of some fluffer down by the lava-shores? I like the way you think.

qayak · 21st July 2007, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by triadboy

So you're saying - if you are going to sin and go to hell anyway...why not just go for "Antichrist"? Enter hell as upper- management, instead of some fluffer down by the lava-shores? I like the way you think.

Yeah, that's the gist but I don't think it will work. I think satan takes his work seriously and really does punish the bad.

However, there are going to be a bunch of people in hell, who are very good but the just didn't accept the son of the skymonster into their heart.

Maybe they will get the freeride from satan. Parties, sex orgies, loud music, romantic strolls on the moon lit beach . . . . ooooops, sorry! Got a little carried away there.

c4ts · 21st July 2007, 08:41 PM

According to Dante, hell is full of awesome people the first part of the way, then once you get down to the ice you're up to your neck in popes.

SirPhilip · 29th July 2007, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide

One fact I'm sure of, is that we get one life. Proof of any other lives has yet to be presented.

That would be incredibly comforting to some of us, wouldn't it. But alas nature is cyclic. Given the principle that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed over time, only rearranged (unless it exists outside the universe), it is reasonable to assume that whatever underlying principle which caused you to exist at all will be set into motion again, I'm afraid.

SirPhilip · 29th July 2007, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by MrFrankZito

Conscious life after corporeal death is unscientific and unsupported by the evidence.

The important paradox to consider is despite decomposing, what causal principle set you to occupy a form over time in the first place. Of course this is like asking what impelled the big bang, and by implication, life, which a positive argument is impossible, so negatives and paradoxes are employed. Since both states are not singularly true in nature, a cyclic state must be implied.

SirPhilip · 29th July 2007, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

Maybe they will get the freeride from satan. Parties, sex orgies, loud music, romantic strolls on the moon lit beach . . . . ooooops, sorry! Got a little carried away there.

I have it from a reliable source that satan does, on request, assist despots in third world countries into transmigrating to South Florida.

-Fran- · 29th July 2007, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by YouBelieveWHAT?

Actually, Arthwollipot, the 144,000 is split into 12,000 for each of the Tribes of Israel.

Revelations also mentions that only male virgins need apply.

A 144,000 male virgins? Well, that beats 78 female virgins!

SirPhilip · 29th July 2007, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by -Fran-

A 144,000 male virgins? Well, that beats 78 female virgins!

You have no idea.

kurious_kathy · 29th July 2007, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Liquid_Grace

You know, the OP makes an interesting point, and I hadn't actually thought of it that way, in all my years as a Christian. (Which I am not now, BTW.)

I guess that from an evangelical perspective, we all have a soul and therefore some part of us is eternal, but life without god is not really life.

I've had evangelicals tell me that hell is seperation from god, and that is a form of eternal death, so there you go.

But I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a lie, or a least, an attempt from those who really believe to misdirect the rest of us.

Cheers,
Grace

What made you turn away from christianity? I was a believer who fell away for 20 years without really seeing it till two and a half years ago when the Holy Spirit opened my spiritual eyes. I am now truly born again through the saving power of Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross.

I just don't know how someone who says they were once a christian, or saved could ever lose their faith completely? What type of church did you go to? Were you ever truly born again as Jesus taught us we need to be?

Miss Anthrope · 29th July 2007, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

What made you turn away from christianity? I was a believer who fell away for 20 years without really seeing it till two and a half years ago when the Holy Spirit opened my spiritual eyes. I am now truly born again through the saving power of Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross.

I just don't know how someone who says they were once a christian, or saved could ever lose their faith completely? What type of church did you go to? Were you ever truly born again as Jesus taught us we need to be?

Of course, no one is truly born again if they question things. I'm sure you've been educated on logical fallacies in the past.

Some of us have realized that "only a fool says he does not believe in god" was nothing more than perfect justifcation, neatly wrapped up and packaged for those who do not wish to have their comfort questioned. For some of use who left the church, we have learned to think for ourselves.

GreedyAlgorithm · 29th July 2007, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

I just don't know how someone who says they were once a christian, or saved could ever lose their faith completely? What type of church did you go to? Were you ever truly born again as Jesus taught us we need to be?

I did it.
Quirky Methodist church.
If anyone was, I was.

Sorry, kk. It happens.

kurious_kathy · 29th July 2007, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Miss Anthrope

Of course, no one is truly born again if they question things. I'm sure you've been educated on logical fallacies in the past.

Some of us have realized that "only a fool says he does not believe in god" was nothing more than perfect justifcation, neatly wrapped up and packaged for those who do not wish to have their comfort questioned. For some of use who left the church, we have learned to think for ourselves.

I still think for myself, I just know God will never leave me or forsake me. It's nice to have faith in this world and the peace that surpasses all understanding. If anyman be in Christ he becomes a new creation!

Miss Anthrope · 29th July 2007, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

I still think for myself, I just know God will never leave me or forsake me. It's nice to have faith in this world and the peace that surpasses all understanding. If anyman be in Christ he becomes a new creation!

Evidence?

triadboy · 30th July 2007, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

I am now truly born again through the saving power of Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross.

I've never heard that phrase before. There is a myth that Jesus was a carpenter - but you surely don't mean he sanded down his own cross. What does that phrase mean?

SirPhilip · 30th July 2007, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

What made you turn away from christianity? I was a believer who fell away for 20 years without really seeing it till two and a half years ago when the Holy Spirit opened my spiritual eyes. I am now truly born again through the saving power of Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross.

It never occurs to you that even if Christianity is correct, you childishly repeat what people say without understanding the point or caring.

Quote:

I just don't know how someone who says they were once a christian, or saved could ever lose their faith completely? What type of church did you go to? Were you ever truly born again as Jesus taught us we need to be?

Three themes, one being idolatry, the second reliance on magic, and the other, requiring to be taught ethical behavior resembles paganism than anything else.

SirPhilip · 30th July 2007, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

I still think for myself, I just know God will never leave me or forsake me. It's nice to have faith in this world and the peace that surpasses all understanding.

I really don't think a father of humanity, knowing good and evil, would intend people to act as cultists - especially one who apparently set into motion oh, a rather large tradition to separate himself from it. Just a thought.

Quote:

If anyman be in Christ he becomes a new creation!

Peh. Thats what I was told if I placed my head onto Shiva's bosom, now I have three eyes and only score at Iron Maiden concerts.

hgc · 30th July 2007, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by SirPhilip

It never occurs to you that even if Christianity is correct, you childishly repeat what people say without understanding the point or caring.

You're dealing with someone for whom words have great power. I mean words that are sacred and eternal in their current configuration. There's even this magical book of great antiquity ... nah, you'd never believe it.

arthwollipot · 31st July 2007, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by GreedyAlgorithm

I did it.
Quirky Methodist church.
If anyone was, I was.

Sorry, kk. It happens.

Yeah, me too. Assemblies of God pentacostal.

YouBelieveWHAT? · 31st July 2007, 10:11 PM

KK,

While I was a Christian - Presbyterian, in fact - I was looking for the "Holy Spirit to open my spiritual eyes", but nothing ever happened.

I really tried hard to be a "proper" member of the church, but gradually, in my late teens it became clear that I was chasing a mirage.

I'd be grateful if you could explain how the Holy Spirit opened your eyes.

Since then, by reading loads of stuff from all different viewpoints, it has become clear to me that whereas there just might be a god, the chances are vanishingly small.

I mean - if I start to believe in one supernatural occurrence, where should I stop - why are all of the gods of ancient history treated as myths, but "your" god is real? If I'm going to believe in the supernatural, why not the whole thing - Saliva Brown, Uri Geller and all the other con-artists?

For an excellent parody of the whole eternal life thingie, I highly recommend "Kissing Hank's Butt" - I'll have a look for the website later.

YBW

YouBelieveWHAT? · 31st July 2007, 10:13 PM

and here it is:

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshankbutt.php

YBW

SirPhilip · 1st August 2007, 03:52 AM

Doublepost.

SirPhilip · 1st August 2007, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by YouBelieveWHAT?

KK,
While I was a Christian - Presbyterian, in fact - I was looking for the "Holy Spirit to open my spiritual eyes", but nothing ever happened. I really tried hard to be a "proper" member of the church, but gradually, in my late teens it became clear that I was chasing a mirage. I'd be grateful if you could explain how the Holy Spirit opened your eyes.

The original, wholesome purpose of the Christian church was upholding a code of conduct out of personal volition (not social reinforcement), then to enjoy a fellowship. Another function was to bring laymen and the stronger willed among the church together. You may be chasing a mirage, but a mirage dissipates, and so do people return to as the saying goes, dust. Hence the mindset of the 'stronger willed'.

Quote:

Since then, by reading loads of stuff from all different viewpoints, it has become clear to me that whereas there just might be a god, the chances are vanishingly small.

As were the chances you'd have your "eyes opened" also. Consider the Jewish story of Job. The moral is Job does not actually empathize with the difficulty of God's situation, and in fact God is the one being hospitable, a difficulty increased with iniquity. It becomes clear Job, despite caring for those he could relate to, did not care to appreciate the difficulty of having eternal existence, absolute power, but human qualities also, then points out relating to it is the task of the faith. It amuses me that superhero comic enthusiasts would likely appreciate this better than most Christians could.

Quote:

I mean - if I start to believe in one supernatural occurrence, where should I stop - why are all of the gods of ancient history treated as myths, but "your" god is real? If I'm going to believe in the supernatural, why not the whole thing - Saliva Brown, Uri Geller and all the other con-artists?

Uri Geller and Sylvia Browne aren't occultists, but representative of materialism and megalomania. It sort of cracks me up to watch Randi, who administers himself as a materialist, to chastise them for lack of reason. The lesser gods of ancient pantheons, aside from being intentionally symbolic or fictional, were not recognized as supernatural - that is, above nature, but supranatural; that is, they had a fluctuating degree of control over it, very similar to comic book superheros. They are always depicted, especially in paintings, as existing in topsy turvy ephemeral worlds. Even Jupiter, the precursor to the Zeus myth and the closest to the monotheistic conception of God, was aptly depicted this way by a renaissance artist, and Hinduism is replete with bizarre stories with the same mechanics that make as much meaningful sense in human terms as a 10 year old's nightmare.

18th July 2007, 01:14 PM	#1
CplFerro Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,383	Why do Christians lie about "eternal life"? According to virtually all Christian sects, "believing" (whatever that means) in Jesus means the given person will be reward with eternal life. As the quote goes: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." --John 3:16 With their next breath, however, they say that unbelievers, sinners, anyone who doesn't make the cut, will be tortured eternally in hell. My question is, why do they lie about the eternal life part? Someone in hell is going to feel pretty *********** alive, just not pleasantly alive. So, according to Christian dogma, everyone is doomed to have eternal life. The opposite of life is death, not eternal torture. Why do religions lie? Cpl Ferro

18th July 2007, 04:32 PM	#3
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,759	Originally Posted by triadboy I think they mean 'eternal life' is a matter of perspective. What kind of life is standing in lava up to your waist while being gang-raped by Hitler and Idi Amin. Good point. Of course, what kind of life is attending an eternal church services and constantly singing the praises of the dear leader? It seems that believers and non-believers alike are condemned to an eternity of torment; only one is going to suck worse than the other.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

18th July 2007, 04:42 PM	#4
The Great Hairy One Chief Cdr Scientist, NWO Cloning Labs Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,066	Originally Posted by CplFerro Why do religions lie? From their point of view, they are not lying. Obviously, religious "truth" is entirely subjective. Speak to someone from a different religion, like a Hindu or Shinto, and they'll tell you something completely different. Of course, the christian view of the "after-life" is not all that friendly and happy either. I've basically had christians admit that if you make it to their version of heaven, you need to be completely brain-wiped to actually enjoy yourself. Cheers, TGHO
	__________________ High Priest of Gzortch, the Demon Prince of Nostrils

18th July 2007, 05:55 PM	#5
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,393	Originally Posted by The Great Hairy One From their point of view, they are not lying. Obviously, religious "truth" is entirely subjective. Speak to someone from a different religion, like a Hindu or Shinto, and they'll tell you something completely different. Of course, the christian view of the "after-life" is not all that friendly and happy either. I've basically had christians admit that if you make it to their version of heaven, you need to be completely brain-wiped to actually enjoy yourself. Cheers, TGHO I think it has to do with the mixing of different religious doctrines as well. Some Early Christian faiths (and their source faiths) felt that they would be saved from death as in "granted eternal life rather than extinction" while others felt that everyone would have eternal survival of the soul, but some would earn a reward in Heaven and the rest would be cast into Hell to forever listen to Pol Pot sing karaoke versions of Puberty Love from Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Both traditions got mixed together as the orthodox cannon was collected.
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

18th July 2007, 10:31 PM	#6
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,005	And it's not even Christians. According to the Bible, Revelation 7:4, only 144,000 Jews are going to get into heaven and have eternal life. Presumably, the rest are going to either just die or get their eternal life in hell.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

18th July 2007, 03:13 PM	#2
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	I think they mean 'eternal life' is a matter of perspective. What kind of life is standing in lava up to your waist while being gang-raped by Hitler and Idi Amin.

19th July 2007, 03:47 AM	#7
Liquid_Grace Scholar Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Expat in Sinny Posts: 52	You know, the OP makes an interesting point, and I hadn't actually thought of it that way, in all my years as a Christian. (Which I am not now, BTW.) I guess that from an evangelical perspective, we all have a soul and therefore some part of us is eternal, but life without god is not really life. I've had evangelicals tell me that hell is seperation from god, and that is a form of eternal death, so there you go. But I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a lie, or a least, an attempt from those who really believe to misdirect the rest of us. Cheers, Grace

19th July 2007, 05:32 AM	#8
SirPhilip Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens, Ohio Posts: 2,444	Originally Posted by CplFerro Why do religions lie? They don't, at least not about that part. The Old Testament was very clear about what the point of faith was. This theme of warring against the world was carried through the centuries. Immortality is the end condition of atheism, and eternal life is the goal of monotheism. Eternal life however, is not provided by nature, but by God alone, and this is central to Catholicism, Islam, and Judaism. It was a choice people ultimately had to make. Life with God, or to become like God. Monotheistic religions are entirely supernatural and concerned with human ideals, not the world (it is the reason for so much confusion these days and a falling out so many people have). Naturalistic religions are not, their goals revolve around knowledge of it and independence from the human condition and the eventual annihilation of all human limitations, leaving only the capacity to know and observe as the goal. This self-annihilation is what is regarded as "eternal" death. To grasp this requires understanding how the evolved human form is actually a miniature version of the universe, and matter and space are also fundamentally infinite and eternal, which was the occult.
	__________________ "The head of the love organ is shaped exactly like a poisonous rattlesnake. And just like a rattlesnake, it's always looking for a hole." - Sun Myung Moon "There are social darwinism principles to uphold here." - Me

19th July 2007, 06:48 AM	#9
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,286	Originally Posted by SirPhilip They don't, at least not about that part. The Old Testament was very clear about what the point of faith was. This theme of warring against the world was carried through the centuries. Immortality is the end condition of atheism, and eternal life is the goal of monotheism. Eternal life however, is not provided by nature, but by God alone, and this is central to Catholicism, Islam, and Judaism. It was a choice people ultimately had to make. Life with God, or to become like God. (Snip) Care to explain that statement? Or did you mean to type immorality?
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

19th July 2007, 08:32 AM	#10
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Tony Good point. Of course, what kind of life is attending an eternal church services and constantly singing the praises of the dear leader? I am informed that praising God in His direct presence is more pleasurable than being a 14 year old boy ejaculating for the very first time inside your hot 42 year old English teacher.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

20th July 2007, 03:11 AM	#11
SirPhilip Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens, Ohio Posts: 2,444	Originally Posted by Damien Evans Care to explain that statement? Or did you mean to type immorality? No, although that equally applies in a sense. The primary driving behavior of living things are reproduction and self-preservation. It subconsciously underlies everything you do from wearing matching clothes to improving a skillset. Self preservation as a religious goal however, is the actual logical end of social darwinism, and it is fundamentally antisocial. Frequently you see in people pretending to have some occult power over nature (e.g Benny Hinn or Sylvia Browne being familiar examples here) a deceptive wholesomeness and cruel indifference underlying their behavior. This is in fact the very thing Catholicism, becoming like God, was set against.
	__________________ "The head of the love organ is shaped exactly like a poisonous rattlesnake. And just like a rattlesnake, it's always looking for a hole." - Sun Myung Moon "There are social darwinism principles to uphold here." - Me

20th July 2007, 03:30 AM	#12
YouBelieveWHAT? Muse Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Nuernberg Posts: 994	Actually, Arthwollipot, the 144,000 is split into 12,000 for each of the Tribes of Israel. Revelations also mentions that only male virgins need apply. Now as God rather carelessly managed to lose 10 of the tribes, there may be cancellations available - if you hurry... YBW
	__________________ I was planning to study Clairvoyance in school, but as I knew I would fail the exam, decided against it. And thanks to SkepticJ: We'd outgrown the fables, I knew. The sun isn't Apollo's chariot, of course, it's a star that began burning when a god said "Let there be light". Man was not created from clay by Zeus, he was created from clay by Yahweh. Hades didn't restore Euridice to life, please. That would be absurd. Jesus did, of course, restore Lazarus to life.... What morons we were before. How wise we are now. - Dale McGowan Last edited by YouBelieveWHAT?; 20th July 2007 at 03:31 AM. Reason: Finger trubbul

20th July 2007, 12:02 PM	#13
Charlie Monoxide Wag Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 2,761	It seems a lot of the christians religions want to screw with your life in return for promises of a wonderful afterlife. One fact I'm sure of, is that we get one life. Proof of any other lives has yet to be presented. I'll enjoy this life without the superstitions, myths, and guilts that the various religions offer. Charlie (thank me it's Friday and jesus be damned) Monoxide
	__________________ Major General Wag of JREF

20th July 2007, 04:55 PM	#14
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,932	Originally Posted by triadboy I think they mean 'eternal life' is a matter of perspective. What kind of life is standing in lava up to your waist while being gang-raped by Hitler and Idi Amin. I trust in that circumstance that Amin and Hitler (and many of their friends) would have permanent tours of duty in the barrel (old sea joke).
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,932

20th July 2007, 09:39 PM	#15
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by fuelair I trust in that circumstance that Amin and Hitler (and many of their friends) would have permanent tours of duty in the barrel (old sea joke). One-third of my military life was a sea joke. I was on a Poseidon submarine...a long, black tube full of seamen. <rim shot> "Thank you, I'll be here all week!"

20th July 2007, 09:46 PM	#16
MrFrankZito Thinker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 222	They lie because they are deluded, after having been inculcated by parents, peers or sheer geography. Conscious life after corporeal death is unscientific and unsupported by the evidence.
MrFrankZito Thinker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 222	__________________ - My Case Against God -

21st July 2007, 02:02 PM	#17
lolurigeller Thinker Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 197	Originally Posted by triadboy What kind of life is standing in lava up to your waist while being gang-raped by Hitler and Idi Amin. LOL that's awesome.
lolurigeller Thinker Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 197

21st July 2007, 03:46 PM	#18
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,711	Originally Posted by triadboy What kind of life is standing in lava up to your waist while being gang-raped by Hitler and Idi Amin. That would apparently be heaven because hell is where bad people go to be punished. Hell would be a bunch of well endowed angels gangraping Hitler, Amin and you! And that's something I could never figure out. If the devil is the one that actually punishes bad people, why does god get all the credit for morality? If I am going to hell, shouldn't I try to be really bad so I can sit at the right hand of satan? But wait a minute, the worse I am, the worse I get punished. Okay, hell makes sense, heaven is off the "Not In A Million Eternities" scale.
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,711	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)

21st July 2007, 03:53 PM	#19
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by qayak If I am going to hell, shouldn't I try to be really bad so I can sit at the right hand of satan? So you're saying - if you are going to sin and go to hell anyway...why not just go for "Antichrist"? Enter hell as upper- management, instead of some fluffer down by the lava-shores? I like the way you think.

21st July 2007, 07:36 PM	#20
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,711	Originally Posted by triadboy So you're saying - if you are going to sin and go to hell anyway...why not just go for "Antichrist"? Enter hell as upper- management, instead of some fluffer down by the lava-shores? I like the way you think. Yeah, that's the gist but I don't think it will work. I think satan takes his work seriously and really does punish the bad. However, there are going to be a bunch of people in hell, who are very good but the just didn't accept the son of the skymonster into their heart. Maybe they will get the freeride from satan. Parties, sex orgies, loud music, romantic strolls on the moon lit beach . . . . ooooops, sorry! Got a little carried away there.
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,711	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)

21st July 2007, 08:41 PM	#21
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	According to Dante, hell is full of awesome people the first part of the way, then once you get down to the ice you're up to your neck in popes.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

29th July 2007, 07:37 PM	#22
SirPhilip Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens, Ohio Posts: 2,444	Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide One fact I'm sure of, is that we get one life. Proof of any other lives has yet to be presented. That would be incredibly comforting to some of us, wouldn't it. But alas nature is cyclic. Given the principle that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed over time, only rearranged (unless it exists outside the universe), it is reasonable to assume that whatever underlying principle which caused you to exist at all will be set into motion again, I'm afraid.
	__________________ "The head of the love organ is shaped exactly like a poisonous rattlesnake. And just like a rattlesnake, it's always looking for a hole." - Sun Myung Moon "There are social darwinism principles to uphold here." - Me

29th July 2007, 07:54 PM	#23
SirPhilip Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens, Ohio Posts: 2,444	Originally Posted by MrFrankZito Conscious life after corporeal death is unscientific and unsupported by the evidence. The important paradox to consider is despite decomposing, what causal principle set you to occupy a form over time in the first place. Of course this is like asking what impelled the big bang, and by implication, life, which a positive argument is impossible, so negatives and paradoxes are employed. Since both states are not singularly true in nature, a cyclic state must be implied.
	__________________ "The head of the love organ is shaped exactly like a poisonous rattlesnake. And just like a rattlesnake, it's always looking for a hole." - Sun Myung Moon "There are social darwinism principles to uphold here." - Me

29th July 2007, 08:18 PM	#24
SirPhilip Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens, Ohio Posts: 2,444	Originally Posted by qayak Maybe they will get the freeride from satan. Parties, sex orgies, loud music, romantic strolls on the moon lit beach . . . . ooooops, sorry! Got a little carried away there. I have it from a reliable source that satan does, on request, assist despots in third world countries into transmigrating to South Florida.
	__________________ "The head of the love organ is shaped exactly like a poisonous rattlesnake. And just like a rattlesnake, it's always looking for a hole." - Sun Myung Moon "There are social darwinism principles to uphold here." - Me

29th July 2007, 08:28 PM	#25
-Fran- Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,581	Originally Posted by YouBelieveWHAT? Actually, Arthwollipot, the 144,000 is split into 12,000 for each of the Tribes of Israel. Revelations also mentions that only male virgins need apply. A 144,000 male virgins? Well, that beats 78 female virgins!
	__________________ Thank goodness there are such things as lies. Imagine if everything you heard was true! (Albert Engström)

29th July 2007, 08:36 PM	#26
SirPhilip Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens, Ohio Posts: 2,444	Originally Posted by -Fran- A 144,000 male virgins? Well, that beats 78 female virgins! You have no idea.
	__________________ "The head of the love organ is shaped exactly like a poisonous rattlesnake. And just like a rattlesnake, it's always looking for a hole." - Sun Myung Moon "There are social darwinism principles to uphold here." - Me

29th July 2007, 11:17 PM	#27
kurious_kathy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sierra FootHills Posts: 2,142	Originally Posted by Liquid_Grace You know, the OP makes an interesting point, and I hadn't actually thought of it that way, in all my years as a Christian. (Which I am not now, BTW.) I guess that from an evangelical perspective, we all have a soul and therefore some part of us is eternal, but life without god is not really life. I've had evangelicals tell me that hell is seperation from god, and that is a form of eternal death, so there you go. But I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a lie, or a least, an attempt from those who really believe to misdirect the rest of us. Cheers, Grace What made you turn away from christianity? I was a believer who fell away for 20 years without really seeing it till two and a half years ago when the Holy Spirit opened my spiritual eyes. I am now truly born again through the saving power of Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross. I just don't know how someone who says they were once a christian, or saved could ever lose their faith completely? What type of church did you go to? Were you ever truly born again as Jesus taught us we need to be?

29th July 2007, 11:23 PM	#28
Miss Anthrope All your post are belong to us Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: A Tiny Oasis in the PNW Posts: 3,597	Originally Posted by kurious_kathy What made you turn away from christianity? I was a believer who fell away for 20 years without really seeing it till two and a half years ago when the Holy Spirit opened my spiritual eyes. I am now truly born again through the saving power of Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross. I just don't know how someone who says they were once a christian, or saved could ever lose their faith completely? What type of church did you go to? Were you ever truly born again as Jesus taught us we need to be? Of course, no one is truly born again if they question things. I'm sure you've been educated on logical fallacies in the past. Some of us have realized that "only a fool says he does not believe in god" was nothing more than perfect justifcation, neatly wrapped up and packaged for those who do not wish to have their comfort questioned. For some of use who left the church, we have learned to think for ourselves.
	__________________ We're not elected officials, nor are we paid professionals. You want us to act as such? Fine. Cough up the cash - because as a professional, I don't come cheap."-Jmercer, who happens to rock.[/color]

29th July 2007, 11:30 PM	#29
GreedyAlgorithm Muse Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 569	Originally Posted by kurious_kathy I just don't know how someone who says they were once a christian, or saved could ever lose their faith completely? What type of church did you go to? Were you ever truly born again as Jesus taught us we need to be? I did it. Quirky Methodist church. If anyone was, I was. Sorry, kk. It happens.
	__________________ while(true);

29th July 2007, 11:34 PM	#30
kurious_kathy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sierra FootHills Posts: 2,142	Originally Posted by Miss Anthrope Of course, no one is truly born again if they question things. I'm sure you've been educated on logical fallacies in the past. Some of us have realized that "only a fool says he does not believe in god" was nothing more than perfect justifcation, neatly wrapped up and packaged for those who do not wish to have their comfort questioned. For some of use who left the church, we have learned to think for ourselves. I still think for myself, I just know God will never leave me or forsake me. It's nice to have faith in this world and the peace that surpasses all understanding. If anyman be in Christ he becomes a new creation!

29th July 2007, 11:36 PM	#31
Miss Anthrope All your post are belong to us Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: A Tiny Oasis in the PNW Posts: 3,597	Originally Posted by kurious_kathy I still think for myself, I just know God will never leave me or forsake me. It's nice to have faith in this world and the peace that surpasses all understanding. If anyman be in Christ he becomes a new creation! Evidence?
	__________________ We're not elected officials, nor are we paid professionals. You want us to act as such? Fine. Cough up the cash - because as a professional, I don't come cheap."-Jmercer, who happens to rock.[/color]

30th July 2007, 07:49 AM	#32
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by kurious_kathy I am now truly born again through the saving power of Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross. I've never heard that phrase before. There is a myth that Jesus was a carpenter - but you surely don't mean he sanded down his own cross. What does that phrase mean?

30th July 2007, 11:43 AM	#33
SirPhilip Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens, Ohio Posts: 2,444	Originally Posted by kurious_kathy What made you turn away from christianity? I was a believer who fell away for 20 years without really seeing it till two and a half years ago when the Holy Spirit opened my spiritual eyes. I am now truly born again through the saving power of Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross. It never occurs to you that even if Christianity is correct, you childishly repeat what people say without understanding the point or caring. Quote: I just don't know how someone who says they were once a christian, or saved could ever lose their faith completely? What type of church did you go to? Were you ever truly born again as Jesus taught us we need to be? Three themes, one being idolatry, the second reliance on magic, and the other, requiring to be taught ethical behavior resembles paganism than anything else.
	__________________ "The head of the love organ is shaped exactly like a poisonous rattlesnake. And just like a rattlesnake, it's always looking for a hole." - Sun Myung Moon "There are social darwinism principles to uphold here." - Me

30th July 2007, 12:07 PM	#34
SirPhilip Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens, Ohio Posts: 2,444	Originally Posted by kurious_kathy I still think for myself, I just know God will never leave me or forsake me. It's nice to have faith in this world and the peace that surpasses all understanding. I really don't think a father of humanity, knowing good and evil, would intend people to act as cultists - especially one who apparently set into motion oh, a rather large tradition to separate himself from it. Just a thought. Quote: If anyman be in Christ he becomes a new creation! Peh. Thats what I was told if I placed my head onto Shiva's bosom, now I have three eyes and only score at Iron Maiden concerts.
	__________________ "The head of the love organ is shaped exactly like a poisonous rattlesnake. And just like a rattlesnake, it's always looking for a hole." - Sun Myung Moon "There are social darwinism principles to uphold here." - Me

30th July 2007, 12:54 PM	#35
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,008	Originally Posted by SirPhilip It never occurs to you that even if Christianity is correct, you childishly repeat what people say without understanding the point or caring. You're dealing with someone for whom words have great power. I mean words that are sacred and eternal in their current configuration. There's even this magical book of great antiquity ... nah, you'd never believe it.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert