Split: Poor in the US

Oliver · 19th July 2007, 11:53 AM

Tailgator asked me what I meant with this statement:

"poor people suffer and have no political voice because the government doesn't care."

Could someone from the US explain it to him since he wouldn't believe a foreigner anyway?

Darth Rotor · 19th July 2007, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Tailgator asked me what I meant with this statement:

"poor people suffer and have no political voice because the government doesn't care."

Could someone from the US explain it to him since he wouldn't believe a foreigner anyway?

Do you claim that poor people are not allowed to vote?

DR

Tailgater · 19th July 2007, 12:05 PM

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...28#post2783028

Run forest, run.

Tailgater · 19th July 2007, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Do you claim that poor people are not allowed to vote?

DR

Thank you DR. I'm not going insane.

Gurdur · 19th July 2007, 12:07 PM

Oliver is probably saying:

the poor in the USA are largely ineffective and isolated in the USA political process owing to that fact that by and largely on state and federal levels, while the US is a democracy, money talks very loudly indeed owing to how it's all set up, and so the poor don't get much of a look in.

The poor also tend not to vote so much; one of the constants of life. It's all a very complex subject. I'm relatively sure the complexities will remain totally unilluminated in the thread to follow, and I think I'll simply remove myself and not attempt any further translation, which will save me from having to look for the asprin bottle.

Giggywig · 19th July 2007, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Tailgator asked me what I meant with this statement:

"poor people suffer and have no political voice because the government doesn't care."

Could someone from the US explain it to him since he wouldn't believe a foreigner anyway?

If it is your statement, shouldn't you explain what it means, maybe even support it with evidence?

Tailgater · 19th July 2007, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Could someone from the US explain it to him since he wouldn't believe a foreigner anyway?

Here we go again. Do you even have the slightest little bit of evidence that I have or would think that?

Oliver · 19th July 2007, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Giggywig

If it is your statement, shouldn't you explain what it means, maybe even support it with evidence?

This is the Politics/Social Issues Sub-Forum. I'm pretty sure that everyone in here has some examples on their own - like "Florida 2004", Healthcare, Welfare..., for example.

SezMe · 19th July 2007, 12:22 PM

I think Gurdur's post is a good one paragraph summary of a complex subject. I would just add that the poor having little political power is not a phenomenon limited to the USA. I dare say it is also true in Germany.

Undesired Walrus · 19th July 2007, 12:23 PM

By this holier-tan-thou smilie you pontificate here, I presume you are going "gee, poor old poor people, It's so unfair they are kept in a state of poverty by the government".

When was the last time, that you worked in a day centre, worked in a hostel, got paid a small amount to try and understand and better help people? Because that is what they need, PEOPLE, people who show they are serious about making them better.

And that is where I work. In a day centre. I'm damn well getting holier-than-thou, and being arrogant, because you simply dont have a bloody clue, AGAIN.

They dont need your pity, they dont need a government who doesn't know what the hell they are talking about, they need YOU.

Now get out there. Will you?

Oh dear...

(proper use of smilie)

Oliver · 19th July 2007, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Tailgater

Here we go again. Do you even have the slightest little bit of evidence that I have or would think that?

Even if I should have said "Internet Worm" instead foreigners, yes:

"I'll take their word over some bigoted internet worm."

Anyway: The point is the same - you don't believe me. So take "their words" instead.

Tailgater · 19th July 2007, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

This is the Politics/Social Issues Sub-Forum. I'm pretty sure that everyone in here has some examples on their own - like "Florida 2004", Healthcare, Welfare..., for example.

=I don't have an opinion of my own. I'll just continue to make absolute statements and post random links and tell people to read them (sometimes without reading them myself) , then jump from thread to thread and even start new ones as to avoid any real engagement.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...28#post2783028

Run forest, run.

Tailgater · 19th July 2007, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Even if I should have said "Internet Worm" instead foreigners, yes:

"I'll take their word over some bigoted internet worm."

Anyway: The point is the same - you don't believe me. So take "their words" instead.

You don't mean what you say? I should start keeping a tally. The funny part of that statement is, the people we were discussing were foreigners. LOL

MWare · 19th July 2007, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Tailgator asked me what I meant with this statement:

"poor people suffer and have no political voice because the government doesn't care."

Could someone from the US explain it to him since he wouldn't believe a foreigner anyway?

Perhaps I could help translate:

Originally Posted by Oliver

poor people suffer

Because they are poor, they have less money, thus can buy fewer of the things they need and want. People with little money must suffer. It is impossible not to suffer if you are poor.

Originally Posted by Oliver

and have no political voice

Poor people in the US are not guaranteed the same rights as everyone else and have no opportunity to exercise their political opinions. Below, you can see the group of (500,000) protestors at one of the LA immigration rights protests. The immigrants protesting the legislation are often poor. Note how you can see them not exercising their political freedom (Note: Many here are not only poor, but they aren't even citizens)

Originally Posted by Oliver

because the government doesn't care

What is being said here is that the government is not a huge entity containing thousands of individual organizations and hundreds of thousands of by and large ethical public servants, but rather a single Borg-like collective consciousness with a singularity of purpose. At no point, do any of these individuals or organizations "care" about the poor.

Did I get it?

Oliver · 19th July 2007, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

I think Gurdur's post is a good one paragraph summary of a complex subject. I would just add that the poor having little political power is not a phenomenon limited to the USA. I dare say it is also true in Germany.

That's pretty far-fetched because we have universal health care and universal welfare. You know, the poor have time to think about politics instead thinking about getting food, health care, a "roof" and so on...

And quite frankly: I think this is exactly what "fair&balanced" is about in a democracy.

This former Uk-Politicians explanation from "Sicko" sums it up much better than I could:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Tailgater · 19th July 2007, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by MWare

Perhaps I could help translate:

Because they are poor, they have less money, thus can buy fewer of the things they need and want. People with little money must suffer. It is impossible not to suffer if you are poor.

Poor people in the US are not guaranteed the same rights as everyone else and have no opportunity to exercise their political opinions. Below, you can see the group of (500,000) protestors at one of the LA immigration rights protests. The immigrants protesting the legislation are often poor. Note how you can see them not exercising their political freedom (Note: Many here are not only poor, but they aren't even citizens)

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Co..._12p.widec.jpg

What is being said here is that the government is not a huge entity containing thousands of individual organizations and hundreds of thousands of by and large ethical public servants, but rather a single Borg-like collective consciousness with a singularity of purpose. At no point, do any of these individuals or organizations "care" about the poor.

Did I get it?

Good post. At least a good try IMO.

ETA:Simply clarifying a position or comment in your own words is much prefered.

OMGturt1es · 19th July 2007, 01:01 PM

oliver,

i'm 28, and i'm poor. i have been poor my entire life. i live a great life. i consider myself exceedingly lucky to live in a country wherein the poor live so well.

moreover, i've the options to better my economic standing. only my failures to act prevent me from bettering my life. but i can better it, if i like-- and i am bettering it. i'll have my BS is geology within a year, which will further demonstrate that the united states is a land of oppurtunity.

i've enjoyed your participation in the conspiracy theory forums, but your emotional need to demonize my country-- a country in which i do NOT see perfection, by the way-- is becoming tiring.

Pardalis · 19th July 2007, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

That's pretty far-fetched because we have universal health care and universal welfare. You know, the poor have time to think about politics instead thinking about getting food, health care, a "roof" and so on...

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...261890,00.html

Oliver · 19th July 2007, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by OMGturt1es

oliver,

i'm 28, and i'm poor. i have been poor my entire life. i live a great life. i consider myself exceedingly lucky to live in a country wherein the poor live so well.

moreover, i've the options to better my economic standing. only my failures to act prevent me from bettering my life. but i can better it, if i like-- and i am bettering it. i'll have my BS is geology within a year, which will further demonstrate that the united states is a land of oppurtunity.

i've enjoyed your participation in the conspiracy theory forums, but your emotional need to demonize my country-- a country in which i do NOT see perfection, by the way-- is becoming tiring.

Well, I'm sorry for your circumstances - and I know it's an inconvenient topic to study the negative side of America. But this is what I'm interested about. And that this is tiring for people in the US, is absolutely understandably.

But who should I ask instead? The Iraqi???
After all, the best source is America itself - especially an American, political Skeptics-Sub-Forum like this one, I apologize for my presence in "politics".

Anyway: It would be much easier if I would get straight answers instead talking back and forth till the end of times. I would have closed my study a long time ago without all the whining for each of my questions.

Oliver · 19th July 2007, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...261890,00.html

Take some time and study what poverty in Germany means in comparison to poverty in the US, Pardalis.

I suggest you start with Universal Healthcare and Universal Welfare - because you have no Idea.

Pardalis · 19th July 2007, 01:36 PM

Why don't you worry about the problems in your own country Oliver?

Oliver · 19th July 2007, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Why don't you worry about the problems in your own country Oliver?

Because we don't lie our citizens into war [anymore]. So I try to find out the dynamics behind this complicated issue.

SezMe · 19th July 2007, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

That's pretty far-fetched because we have universal health care and universal welfare. You know, the poor have time to think about politics instead thinking about getting food, health care, a "roof" and so on...

Having universal health care and welfare is irrelevant to having political power. And thinking about politics is not political power either.

Tailgater · 19th July 2007, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Because we don't lie our citizens into war [anymore]. So I try to find out the dynamics behind this complicated issue.

Derail.

Tailgater · 19th July 2007, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Anyway: It would be much easier if I would get straight answers instead talking back and forth till the end of times. I would have closed my study a long time ago without all the whining for each of my questions.

Irony meter imploded. Stop derailing your own threads with links you don't read and comments that you won't clarify without throwing out more links and sarcasm and you might just get somewhere.

Ohmer · 19th July 2007, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Take some time and study what poverty in Germany means in comparison to poverty in the US, Pardalis.

I suggest you start with Universal Healthcare and Universal Welfare - because you have no Idea.

From Pardalis' artice:

Quote:

children that go to school sick because their parents can't afford a visit to the doctor; cities that are divided along lines of social class and income.

My bold. I'm confused. Don't you have Universal Healthcare?

Tailgater · 19th July 2007, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Take some time and study what poverty in Germany means in comparison to poverty in the US, Pardalis.

I suggest you start with Universal Healthcare and Universal Welfare - because you have no Idea.

=I see your 1 link and raise you 1.

Take that Pardalis.

ETA: Oliver, That was very insightful commentary on the link Pardalis posted.

Oliver · 19th July 2007, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ohmer

From Pardalis' artice:
My bold. I'm confused. Don't you have Universal Healthcare?

I'm confused, too. That's nearly impossible unless you're not a registered citizen or unable to "give the signal" that you need financial support via the "Arbeitsamt/Sozialamt" (Federal Office for occupation/social security office).

I check the article...

Newtons Bit · 19th July 2007, 02:19 PM

We do have universal welfare. There's not quite universal healthcare, but there are free clinics and if you have a serious injury, hospitals cannot turn you away even if you don't have insurance. You're not going to get expensive surgery, but they will treat you for broken bones to appendicidises.

I live in one of the poorest states in this nation. I went to highschool here. Every kid in the public system here has access to free-meals (breakfast and lunch) if their parents are below a certain income line. Every kid is required to have health insurance. The state offers insurance, almost free of charge, if their parents are below a certain income level.

America is the land of oppurtunity. If you work hard, you will not stay poor. You're not guarenteed to be rich, but that's a different matter. I was blessed with having parents who could afford sending me to a decent public college. But, I also made friends with alot of people who worked their asses off in college, paying their way with summer jobs, military funding and loans. All of them have good jobs now (or are in grad school). Some are even making around $100k/year at the moment.

Sure some people have it rough and will likely never make it out of poverty. The young woman who got pregnant at 15 and had her boyfriend leave her and her family disown her for example. She'll probably live on welfare for the rest of her life.

Maybe if you stop reading European propaganda and figure out how the world really works, you wouldn't be so "confused" all the time.

Oliver · 19th July 2007, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Ohmer

From Pardalis' artice:
My bold. I'm confused. Don't you have Universal Healthcare?

I guess this wasn't meant literally but a prediction - according to the follow up:

"It's not the normal picture that comes to mind when imagining life in Germany. But experts are warning that it's the reality awaiting Germany following the implementation of the government's package of unemployment and social welfare reforms, known as Hartz IV."

Source: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...261890,00.html

Now this article is from 2004 and "Hartz 4" is legislated already. And so far, the prediction didn't become reality.

Oliver · 19th July 2007, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

We do have universal welfare. There's not quite universal healthcare, but there are free clinics and if you have a serious injury, hospitals cannot turn you away even if you don't have insurance. You're not going to get expensive surgery, but they will treat you for broken bones to appendicidises.

I live in one of the poorest states in this nation. I went to highschool here. Every kid in the public system here has access to free-meals (breakfast and lunch) if their parents are below a certain income line. Every kid is required to have health insurance. The state offers insurance, almost free of charge, if their parents are below a certain income level.

America is the land of oppurtunity. If you work hard, you will not stay poor. You're not guarenteed to be rich, but that's a different matter. I was blessed with having parents who could afford sending me to a decent public college. But, I also made friends with alot of people who worked their asses off in college, paying their way with summer jobs, military funding and loans. All of them have good jobs now (or are in grad school). Some are even making around $100k/year at the moment.

Sure some people have it rough and will likely never make it out of poverty. The young woman who got pregnant at 15 and had her boyfriend leave her and her family disown her for example. She'll probably live on welfare for the rest of her life.

Maybe if you stop reading European propaganda and figure out how the world really works, you wouldn't be so "confused" all the time.

Actually I'm reading and watching American Propaganda. Sicko was the latest thing I watched concerning this Issue. And it was unimaginable that this could be true.

However - from what I read about the Health Care System, also in threads in here, there's lot of truth to it. Did you see the movie yet?

Walk The Line · 19th July 2007, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Take some time and study what poverty in Germany means in comparison to poverty in the US, Pardalis.

I suggest you start with Universal Healthcare and Universal Welfare - because you have no Idea.

Perhaps you should check out this link here: http://www.cis.org/articles/poverty_...ecsummary.html

It suggests that there is a significant link between immigration and the increase in the number of poor in the United States over the last 30 years.

Of course, this raises the question of why immigrants are risking their lives to come to the United States if life for the poor is so bad. But I suppose Oliver will be able to answer that.

Darth Rotor · 19th July 2007, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Walk The Line

Perhaps you should check out this link here: http://www.cis.org/articles/poverty_...ecsummary.html

It suggests that there is a significant link between immigration and the increase in the number of poor in the United States over the last 30 years.

Of course, this raises the question of why immigrants are risking their lives to come to the United States if life for the poor is so bad.

But I suppose Oliver will be able to answer that.

It's too far to swiim to Germany, aka paradise on earth?

DR

The Painter · 19th July 2007, 02:40 PM

I would rather be poor in America than anywhere else in the world. We have the highest class of poor people bar none;

Quote:

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.

The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.

Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

Pardalis · 19th July 2007, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

It's too far to swiim to Germany, aka paradise on earth?

DR

I disagree.

Based on what I've read of their increasing poverty, their laws on banning freedom of speech on the Holocaust and their long history of conflicts and invasions in the 20th century, I'm confident to declare Germany to be like a 13 party dictatorship.

OMGturt1es · 19th July 2007, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Well, I'm sorry for your circumstances

why? did you read what i wrote? my life kicks ass. i'm very happy. that was the entire point of my post. i have plenty to eat, i rent a house with a few friends, i have a laptop, plenty of good coffee and a lot of free time, and i'm studying to work in a field that i absolutely love.

oliver, i'm a total slacker with an unfortunant love for the depressing. and i still live an excellent life.

Quote:

- and I know it's an inconvenient topic to study the negative side of America.

no, it's not inconvenient at all. i bash the hell out of my country all the time.

oliver, you asked for input from poor folk. i'm poor. is my opinion only going to influence you if i agree with your position?

Quote:

But this is what I'm interested about. And that this is tiring for people in the US, is absolutely understandably.

no, oliver, overwhelmingly, we are amazingly critical of our own government. have you seen bush's approval ratings lately?

we aren't tired of valid criticism, we are tired of invalid criticism. you're trying to tell us how bad it is for poor folk in america, and you don't even live here. you have no idea.

oliver, i'm the real deal. i'm a poor american. i'm telling you that you are wrong.

Quote:

But who should I ask instead? The Iraqi???

this annoys us to. no one asked you to go ask an iraqi. you're setting up a straw argument here; you suggest that my arguments require that you go talk with iraqis. on the contrary, i want you to take a minute an READ what people are writing. we are not blinded by patriotism.

Quote:

After all, the best source is America itself - especially an American, political Skeptics-Sub-Forum like this one, I apologize for my presence in "politics".

you should apologize for wasting everyone's time.

i suggest you go buy a couple bags of your favorite coffee, and spend the next two months reading over every single political thread in which you've participated. keep a tally of claims made by yourself, and claims made by others, and then scrutinize the hell out of every claim.

if you do this, you'll start to see a pattern, and you will discover the final step in "skepticism": you may always be wrong, and your ego and emotions will always attempt to steal the truth away from your very eyes.

you have wasted everyone's time because you start with a position in every thread that you assume cannot be incorrect, so oppositional argument is simply ignored. it's happened countless times. it's not that people don't like you, it's that people are tired of argument falling on deaf ears.

Quote:

Anyway: It would be much easier if I would get straight answers instead talking back and forth till the end of times. I would have closed my study a long time ago without all the whining for each of my questions.

see?

you asked for opinion from poor americans. i've given you my opinion. you don't like it.

you shouldn't see my responses as challenges to your position, just as further evidence from which to build a position.

oliver, i like you. i think you're a nice guy, and i think you're obviously intelligent, but i think that you don't fully appreciate the point of argument. none of us are going to be 100% correct 100% of the time. oppositional argument is the key to figuring out those inevitable times when we are wrong.

the problem is that your compulsion to defend your arguments leads to self ignorance of oppositional argument. others have posted countless times to offer evidence that counters your own-- including myself, oliver-- and you've ignored them all. you've simply continued on, ignoring the evidence.

i understand that you likely become overwhelmed in threads, but you still need to take the time to chase down and further investigate evidence, or you just waste everyone's time. and that's all you've done thus far.

take care,
anthony.

Tailgater · 19th July 2007, 03:06 PM

Nice post, Anthony. Very polite and right down the middle. I hope it is taken that way.

Pardalis · 19th July 2007, 03:08 PM

OMGturt1es, in a single post you've managed to describe everything alot of people have been trying to make Oliver understand, but in a much more polite and calm way.

A true gentleman.

WildCat · 19th July 2007, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

OMGturt1es, in a single post you've managed to describe everything alot of people have been trying to make Oliver understand, but in a much more polite and calm way.

A true gentleman.

He did, but I'll bet Oliver starts another "America really sucks" thread within a week.

Pardalis · 19th July 2007, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

He did, but I'll bet Oliver starts another "America really sucks" thread within a week.

A week?

We're only thursday you know...

19th July 2007, 11:53 AM	#1
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Split: Poor in the US Tailgator asked me what I meant with this statement: "poor people suffer and have no political voice because the government doesn't care." Could someone from the US explain it to him since he wouldn't believe a foreigner anyway?
	__________________

19th July 2007, 11:57 AM	#2
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by Oliver Tailgator asked me what I meant with this statement: "poor people suffer and have no political voice because the government doesn't care." Could someone from the US explain it to him since he wouldn't believe a foreigner anyway? Do you claim that poor people are not allowed to vote? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

19th July 2007, 12:05 PM	#3
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...28#post2783028 Run forest, run.
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212

19th July 2007, 12:07 PM	#4
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Do you claim that poor people are not allowed to vote? DR Thank you DR. I'm not going insane.
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212

19th July 2007, 12:07 PM	#5
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Oliver is probably saying: the poor in the USA are largely ineffective and isolated in the USA political process owing to that fact that by and largely on state and federal levels, while the US is a democracy, money talks very loudly indeed owing to how it's all set up, and so the poor don't get much of a look in. The poor also tend not to vote so much; one of the constants of life. It's all a very complex subject. I'm relatively sure the complexities will remain totally unilluminated in the thread to follow, and I think I'll simply remove myself and not attempt any further translation, which will save me from having to look for the asprin bottle.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

19th July 2007, 12:09 PM	#6
Giggywig Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,853	Originally Posted by Oliver Tailgator asked me what I meant with this statement: "poor people suffer and have no political voice because the government doesn't care." Could someone from the US explain it to him since he wouldn't believe a foreigner anyway? If it is your statement, shouldn't you explain what it means, maybe even support it with evidence?

19th July 2007, 12:10 PM	#7
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by Oliver Could someone from the US explain it to him since he wouldn't believe a foreigner anyway? Here we go again. Do you even have the slightest little bit of evidence that I have or would think that?
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212

19th July 2007, 12:19 PM	#8
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Giggywig If it is your statement, shouldn't you explain what it means, maybe even support it with evidence? This is the Politics/Social Issues Sub-Forum. I'm pretty sure that everyone in here has some examples on their own - like "Florida 2004", Healthcare, Welfare..., for example.
	__________________

19th July 2007, 12:22 PM	#9
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,367	I think Gurdur's post is a good one paragraph summary of a complex subject. I would just add that the poor having little political power is not a phenomenon limited to the USA. I dare say it is also true in Germany.

19th July 2007, 12:23 PM	#10
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,893	By this holier-tan-thou smilie you pontificate here, I presume you are going "gee, poor old poor people, It's so unfair they are kept in a state of poverty by the government". When was the last time, that you worked in a day centre, worked in a hostel, got paid a small amount to try and understand and better help people? Because that is what they need, PEOPLE, people who show they are serious about making them better. And that is where I work. In a day centre. I'm damn well getting holier-than-thou, and being arrogant, because you simply dont have a bloody clue, AGAIN. They dont need your pity, they dont need a government who doesn't know what the hell they are talking about, they need YOU. Now get out there. Will you? Oh dear... (proper use of smilie)

19th July 2007, 12:24 PM	#11
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Tailgater Here we go again. Do you even have the slightest little bit of evidence that I have or would think that? Even if I should have said "Internet Worm" instead foreigners, yes: "I'll take their word over some bigoted internet worm." Anyway: The point is the same - you don't believe me. So take "their words" instead.
	__________________

19th July 2007, 12:25 PM	#12
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by Oliver This is the Politics/Social Issues Sub-Forum. I'm pretty sure that everyone in here has some examples on their own - like "Florida 2004", Healthcare, Welfare..., for example. =I don't have an opinion of my own. I'll just continue to make absolute statements and post random links and tell people to read them (sometimes without reading them myself) , then jump from thread to thread and even start new ones as to avoid any real engagement. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...28#post2783028 Run forest, run.
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212

19th July 2007, 12:27 PM	#13
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by Oliver Even if I should have said "Internet Worm" instead foreigners, yes: "I'll take their word over some bigoted internet worm." Anyway: The point is the same - you don't believe me. So take "their words" instead. You don't mean what you say? I should start keeping a tally. The funny part of that statement is, the people we were discussing were foreigners. LOL
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Last edited by Tailgater; 19th July 2007 at 12:31 PM.

19th July 2007, 12:29 PM	#14
MWare Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 666	Originally Posted by Oliver Tailgator asked me what I meant with this statement: "poor people suffer and have no political voice because the government doesn't care." Could someone from the US explain it to him since he wouldn't believe a foreigner anyway? Perhaps I could help translate: Originally Posted by Oliver poor people suffer Because they are poor, they have less money, thus can buy fewer of the things they need and want. People with little money must suffer. It is impossible not to suffer if you are poor. Originally Posted by Oliver and have no political voice Poor people in the US are not guaranteed the same rights as everyone else and have no opportunity to exercise their political opinions. Below, you can see the group of (500,000) protestors at one of the LA immigration rights protests. The immigrants protesting the legislation are often poor. Note how you can see them not exercising their political freedom (Note: Many here are not only poor, but they aren't even citizens) Originally Posted by Oliver because the government doesn't care What is being said here is that the government is not a huge entity containing thousands of individual organizations and hundreds of thousands of by and large ethical public servants, but rather a single Borg-like collective consciousness with a singularity of purpose. At no point, do any of these individuals or organizations "care" about the poor. Did I get it?
	__________________ “The plural of anecdote is not evidence." --George Stigler "I am all in favor of a dialogue between science and religion, but not a constructive dialogue. One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." --Steven Weinberg

19th July 2007, 12:43 PM	#16
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by MWare Perhaps I could help translate: Because they are poor, they have less money, thus can buy fewer of the things they need and want. People with little money must suffer. It is impossible not to suffer if you are poor. Poor people in the US are not guaranteed the same rights as everyone else and have no opportunity to exercise their political opinions. Below, you can see the group of (500,000) protestors at one of the LA immigration rights protests. The immigrants protesting the legislation are often poor. Note how you can see them not exercising their political freedom (Note: Many here are not only poor, but they aren't even citizens) http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Co..._12p.widec.jpg What is being said here is that the government is not a huge entity containing thousands of individual organizations and hundreds of thousands of by and large ethical public servants, but rather a single Borg-like collective consciousness with a singularity of purpose. At no point, do any of these individuals or organizations "care" about the poor. Did I get it? Good post. At least a good try IMO. ETA:Simply clarifying a position or comment in your own words is much prefered.
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Last edited by Tailgater; 19th July 2007 at 01:06 PM.

19th July 2007, 01:01 PM	#17
OMGturt1es Muse Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Elk Grove, California Posts: 851	oliver, i'm 28, and i'm poor. i have been poor my entire life. i live a great life. i consider myself exceedingly lucky to live in a country wherein the poor live so well. moreover, i've the options to better my economic standing. only my failures to act prevent me from bettering my life. but i can better it, if i like-- and i am bettering it. i'll have my BS is geology within a year, which will further demonstrate that the united states is a land of oppurtunity. i've enjoyed your participation in the conspiracy theory forums, but your emotional need to demonize my country-- a country in which i do NOT see perfection, by the way-- is becoming tiring.
	__________________ “Science is an integral part of culture. It's not this foreign thing, done by an arcane priesthood. It's one of the glories of the human intellectual tradition.” - Stephen Jay Gould

19th July 2007, 01:25 PM	#18
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Oliver That's pretty far-fetched because we have universal health care and universal welfare. You know, the poor have time to think about politics instead thinking about getting food, health care, a "roof" and so on... http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...261890,00.html

19th July 2007, 01:27 PM	#19
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by OMGturt1es oliver, i'm 28, and i'm poor. i have been poor my entire life. i live a great life. i consider myself exceedingly lucky to live in a country wherein the poor live so well. moreover, i've the options to better my economic standing. only my failures to act prevent me from bettering my life. but i can better it, if i like-- and i am bettering it. i'll have my BS is geology within a year, which will further demonstrate that the united states is a land of oppurtunity. i've enjoyed your participation in the conspiracy theory forums, but your emotional need to demonize my country-- a country in which i do NOT see perfection, by the way-- is becoming tiring. Well, I'm sorry for your circumstances - and I know it's an inconvenient topic to study the negative side of America. But this is what I'm interested about. And that this is tiring for people in the US, is absolutely understandably. But who should I ask instead? The Iraqi??? After all, the best source is America itself - especially an American, political Skeptics-Sub-Forum like this one, I apologize for my presence in "politics". Anyway: It would be much easier if I would get straight answers instead talking back and forth till the end of times. I would have closed my study a long time ago without all the whining for each of my questions.
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19th July 2007, 01:33 PM	#20
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Pardalis http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...261890,00.html Take some time and study what poverty in Germany means in comparison to poverty in the US, Pardalis. I suggest you start with Universal Healthcare and Universal Welfare - because you have no Idea.
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19th July 2007, 01:36 PM	#21
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Why don't you worry about the problems in your own country Oliver?

19th July 2007, 01:40 PM	#22
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Pardalis Why don't you worry about the problems in your own country Oliver? Because we don't lie our citizens into war [anymore]. So I try to find out the dynamics behind this complicated issue.
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19th July 2007, 01:51 PM	#23
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,367	Originally Posted by Oliver That's pretty far-fetched because we have universal health care and universal welfare. You know, the poor have time to think about politics instead thinking about getting food, health care, a "roof" and so on... Having universal health care and welfare is irrelevant to having political power. And thinking about politics is not political power either.

19th July 2007, 01:57 PM	#24
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by Oliver Because we don't lie our citizens into war [anymore]. So I try to find out the dynamics behind this complicated issue. Derail.
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212

19th July 2007, 02:01 PM	#25
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by Oliver Anyway: It would be much easier if I would get straight answers instead talking back and forth till the end of times. I would have closed my study a long time ago without all the whining for each of my questions. Irony meter imploded. Stop derailing your own threads with links you don't read and comments that you won't clarify without throwing out more links and sarcasm and you might just get somewhere.
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19th July 2007, 02:03 PM	#26
Ohmer Muse Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 678	Originally Posted by Oliver Take some time and study what poverty in Germany means in comparison to poverty in the US, Pardalis. I suggest you start with Universal Healthcare and Universal Welfare - because you have no Idea. From Pardalis' artice: Quote: children that go to school sick because their parents can't afford a visit to the doctor; cities that are divided along lines of social class and income. My bold. I'm confused. Don't you have Universal Healthcare?

19th July 2007, 02:04 PM	#27
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by Oliver Take some time and study what poverty in Germany means in comparison to poverty in the US, Pardalis. I suggest you start with Universal Healthcare and Universal Welfare - because you have no Idea. =I see your 1 link and raise you 1. Take that Pardalis. ETA: Oliver, That was very insightful commentary on the link Pardalis posted.
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Last edited by Tailgater; 19th July 2007 at 02:19 PM.

19th July 2007, 02:17 PM	#28
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Ohmer From Pardalis' artice: My bold. I'm confused. Don't you have Universal Healthcare? I'm confused, too. That's nearly impossible unless you're not a registered citizen or unable to "give the signal" that you need financial support via the "Arbeitsamt/Sozialamt" (Federal Office for occupation/social security office). I check the article...
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19th July 2007, 02:19 PM	#29
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,906	We do have universal welfare. There's not quite universal healthcare, but there are free clinics and if you have a serious injury, hospitals cannot turn you away even if you don't have insurance. You're not going to get expensive surgery, but they will treat you for broken bones to appendicidises. I live in one of the poorest states in this nation. I went to highschool here. Every kid in the public system here has access to free-meals (breakfast and lunch) if their parents are below a certain income line. Every kid is required to have health insurance. The state offers insurance, almost free of charge, if their parents are below a certain income level. America is the land of oppurtunity. If you work hard, you will not stay poor. You're not guarenteed to be rich, but that's a different matter. I was blessed with having parents who could afford sending me to a decent public college. But, I also made friends with alot of people who worked their asses off in college, paying their way with summer jobs, military funding and loans. All of them have good jobs now (or are in grad school). Some are even making around $100k/year at the moment. Sure some people have it rough and will likely never make it out of poverty. The young woman who got pregnant at 15 and had her boyfriend leave her and her family disown her for example. She'll probably live on welfare for the rest of her life. Maybe if you stop reading European propaganda and figure out how the world really works, you wouldn't be so "confused" all the time.
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,906	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

19th July 2007, 02:23 PM	#30
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Ohmer From Pardalis' artice: My bold. I'm confused. Don't you have Universal Healthcare? I guess this wasn't meant literally but a prediction - according to the follow up: "It's not the normal picture that comes to mind when imagining life in Germany. But experts are warning that it's the reality awaiting Germany following the implementation of the government's package of unemployment and social welfare reforms, known as Hartz IV." Source: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...261890,00.html Now this article is from 2004 and "Hartz 4" is legislated already. And so far, the prediction didn't become reality.
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19th July 2007, 02:30 PM	#31
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit We do have universal welfare. There's not quite universal healthcare, but there are free clinics and if you have a serious injury, hospitals cannot turn you away even if you don't have insurance. You're not going to get expensive surgery, but they will treat you for broken bones to appendicidises. I live in one of the poorest states in this nation. I went to highschool here. Every kid in the public system here has access to free-meals (breakfast and lunch) if their parents are below a certain income line. Every kid is required to have health insurance. The state offers insurance, almost free of charge, if their parents are below a certain income level. America is the land of oppurtunity. If you work hard, you will not stay poor. You're not guarenteed to be rich, but that's a different matter. I was blessed with having parents who could afford sending me to a decent public college. But, I also made friends with alot of people who worked their asses off in college, paying their way with summer jobs, military funding and loans. All of them have good jobs now (or are in grad school). Some are even making around $100k/year at the moment. Sure some people have it rough and will likely never make it out of poverty. The young woman who got pregnant at 15 and had her boyfriend leave her and her family disown her for example. She'll probably live on welfare for the rest of her life. Maybe if you stop reading European propaganda and figure out how the world really works, you wouldn't be so "confused" all the time. Actually I'm reading and watching American Propaganda. Sicko was the latest thing I watched concerning this Issue. And it was unimaginable that this could be true. However - from what I read about the Health Care System, also in threads in here, there's lot of truth to it. Did you see the movie yet?
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19th July 2007, 02:31 PM	#32
Walk The Line We ARE Virginia Tech Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 936	Originally Posted by Oliver Take some time and study what poverty in Germany means in comparison to poverty in the US, Pardalis. I suggest you start with Universal Healthcare and Universal Welfare - because you have no Idea. Perhaps you should check out this link here: http://www.cis.org/articles/poverty_...ecsummary.html It suggests that there is a significant link between immigration and the increase in the number of poor in the United States over the last 30 years. Of course, this raises the question of why immigrants are risking their lives to come to the United States if life for the poor is so bad. But I suppose Oliver will be able to answer that.

19th July 2007, 02:34 PM	#33
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by Walk The Line Perhaps you should check out this link here: http://www.cis.org/articles/poverty_...ecsummary.html It suggests that there is a significant link between immigration and the increase in the number of poor in the United States over the last 30 years. Of course, this raises the question of why immigrants are risking their lives to come to the United States if life for the poor is so bad. But I suppose Oliver will be able to answer that. It's too far to swiim to Germany, aka paradise on earth? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

19th July 2007, 02:40 PM	#34
The Painter Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New York Posts: 2,656	I would rather be poor in America than anywhere else in the world. We have the highest class of poor people bar none; Quote: The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports: Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio. Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning. Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person. The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.) Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars. Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions. Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception. Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

19th July 2007, 02:48 PM	#35
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor It's too far to swiim to Germany, aka paradise on earth? DR I disagree. Based on what I've read of their increasing poverty, their laws on banning freedom of speech on the Holocaust and their long history of conflicts and invasions in the 20th century, I'm confident to declare Germany to be like a 13 party dictatorship.

19th July 2007, 02:48 PM	#36
OMGturt1es Muse Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Elk Grove, California Posts: 851	Originally Posted by Oliver Well, I'm sorry for your circumstances why? did you read what i wrote? my life kicks ass. i'm very happy. that was the entire point of my post. i have plenty to eat, i rent a house with a few friends, i have a laptop, plenty of good coffee and a lot of free time, and i'm studying to work in a field that i absolutely love. oliver, i'm a total slacker with an unfortunant love for the depressing. and i still live an excellent life. Quote: - and I know it's an inconvenient topic to study the negative side of America. no, it's not inconvenient at all. i bash the hell out of my country all the time. oliver, you asked for input from poor folk. i'm poor. is my opinion only going to influence you if i agree with your position? Quote: But this is what I'm interested about. And that this is tiring for people in the US, is absolutely understandably. no, oliver, overwhelmingly, we are amazingly critical of our own government. have you seen bush's approval ratings lately? we aren't tired of valid criticism, we are tired of invalid criticism. you're trying to tell us how bad it is for poor folk in america, and you don't even live here. you have no idea. oliver, i'm the real deal. i'm a poor american. i'm telling you that you are wrong. Quote: But who should I ask instead? The Iraqi??? this annoys us to. no one asked you to go ask an iraqi. you're setting up a straw argument here; you suggest that my arguments require that you go talk with iraqis. on the contrary, i want you to take a minute an READ what people are writing. we are not blinded by patriotism. Quote: After all, the best source is America itself - especially an American, political Skeptics-Sub-Forum like this one, I apologize for my presence in "politics". you should apologize for wasting everyone's time. i suggest you go buy a couple bags of your favorite coffee, and spend the next two months reading over every single political thread in which you've participated. keep a tally of claims made by yourself, and claims made by others, and then scrutinize the hell out of every claim. if you do this, you'll start to see a pattern, and you will discover the final step in "skepticism": you may always be wrong, and your ego and emotions will always attempt to steal the truth away from your very eyes. you have wasted everyone's time because you start with a position in every thread that you assume cannot be incorrect, so oppositional argument is simply ignored. it's happened countless times. it's not that people don't like you, it's that people are tired of argument falling on deaf ears. Quote: Anyway: It would be much easier if I would get straight answers instead talking back and forth till the end of times. I would have closed my study a long time ago without all the whining for each of my questions. see? you asked for opinion from poor americans. i've given you my opinion. you don't like it. you shouldn't see my responses as challenges to your position, just as further evidence from which to build a position. oliver, i like you. i think you're a nice guy, and i think you're obviously intelligent, but i think that you don't fully appreciate the point of argument. none of us are going to be 100% correct 100% of the time. oppositional argument is the key to figuring out those inevitable times when we are wrong. the problem is that your compulsion to defend your arguments leads to self ignorance of oppositional argument. others have posted countless times to offer evidence that counters your own-- including myself, oliver-- and you've ignored them all. you've simply continued on, ignoring the evidence. i understand that you likely become overwhelmed in threads, but you still need to take the time to chase down and further investigate evidence, or you just waste everyone's time. and that's all you've done thus far. take care, anthony.
	__________________ “Science is an integral part of culture. It's not this foreign thing, done by an arcane priesthood. It's one of the glories of the human intellectual tradition.” - Stephen Jay Gould