Do American values now really include torture secret prisons and concentration camps?

E.J.Armstrong · 21st July 2007, 04:13 AM

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6909331.stm
The most controversial practice allegedly used by the CIA is "water boarding" - in which prisoners are strapped to a plank over water and made to fear that they will drown.

The American authorities have never confirmed they use the technique and it is unclear whether the guidelines allow it.

Leonard Rubenstein, director of Physicians for Human Rights, told the Associated Press news agency that the executive order was inadequate.

"What is needed now is repudiation of brutal and cruel interrogation methods."

"General statements like this are inadequate, particularly after years of evidence that torture was authorised at the highest levels and utilised by US forces," he said.

Protection

The White House declined to say whether the CIA currently had a detention and interrogation programme.

But it said that if it did, the agency had to adhere to the guidelines.

joshbuckley · 21st July 2007, 07:41 AM

I think American values do not really include torture, but perhaps CIA "values" do.

Oroborus · 21st July 2007, 07:52 AM

because I can speak for all of america

WildCat · 21st July 2007, 08:37 AM

I doubt that interrogation methods used by the CIA are any different now than they ever were, it is just public outrage that has changed.

I have no idea what these "concentration camps" are of which you speak.

Tony · 21st July 2007, 08:43 AM

No. Those are not American values, they are however, conservative values.

Pardalis · 21st July 2007, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Tony

No. Those are not American values, they are however, conservative values.

Really? Care to explain?

Tony · 21st July 2007, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Really? Care to explain?

Nope. If you haven't been paying attention to the events in America over the past 5 years, its unlikely anything I say will convince you.

E.J.Armstrong · 21st July 2007, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

I doubt that interrogation methods used by the CIA are any different now than they ever were, it is just public outrage that has changed.

I have no idea what these "concentration camps" are of which you speak.

If you have no idea where the concentration camps are can I point you to Guantanamo Bay for example, where people (including juveniles) have been held for years without being charged with any crime. Where the Geneva convention is redefined to allow what many people consider torture, where some have been incarcerated after being kidnapped. Where people are denied basic legal and human rights. Where people have been abused on religious grounds, where they are denied proper access to legal representatives, where people have committed suicide in despair at their treatment.

The USA has set up secret camps around the world and we are not even allowed to know where they are or what methods they use, although Bush has admitted they exist.

I wonder how seriously people around the world take Bush when he calls on people to stop torture or kidnapping people and to respect American values when this is the example he sets. Not very seriously methinks.

E.J.Armstrong · 21st July 2007, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by joshbuckley

I think American values do not really include torture, but perhaps CIA "values" do.

Does the CIA not act on behalf of the USA?

Pardalis · 21st July 2007, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Tony

Nope.

That's your call.

WildCat · 21st July 2007, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong

If you have no idea where the concentration camps are can I point you to Guantanamo Bay for example, where people (including juveniles) have been held for years without being charged with any crime.

I see. So you have decided to expand the definition of "concentration camp" beyond its accepted meaning in order to apply it to a facility for captured combatants in a war, while reaping the emotional baggage the term acquired after the Nazis used the term as a euphemism for their death camps.

WildCat · 21st July 2007, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong

The USA has set up secret camps around the world and we are not even allowed to know where they are or what methods they use, although Bush has admitted they exist.

And of course none of them existed prior to the Bush Administration...

Katana · 21st July 2007, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong

If you have no idea where the concentration camps are can I point you to Guantanamo Bay for example, where people (including juveniles) have been held for years without being charged with any crime. Where the Geneva convention is redefined to allow what many people consider torture, where some have been incarcerated after being kidnapped. Where people are denied basic legal and human rights. Where people have been abused on religious grounds, where they are denied proper access to legal representatives, where people have committed suicide in despair at their treatment.

The USA has set up secret camps around the world and we are not even allowed to know where they are or what methods they use, although Bush has admitted they exist.

I wonder how seriously people around the world take Bush when he calls on people to stop torture or kidnapping people and to respect American values when this is the example he sets. Not very seriously methinks.

Given how low his approval rating is AND the fact that the American public was 1) kept in the dark about this just like the rest of the world and 2) has no say in what our idiot president or the CIA does, how does it follow that their behavior somehow represents "American values"?

Darth Rotor · 21st July 2007, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6909331.stm
The most controversial practice allegedly used by the CIA is "water boarding" - in which prisoners are strapped to a plank over water and made to fear that they will drown.

The American authorities have never confirmed they use the technique and it is unclear whether the guidelines allow it.

Leonard Rubenstein, director of Physicians for Human Rights, told the Associated Press news agency that the executive order was inadequate.

"What is needed now is repudiation of brutal and cruel interrogation methods."

"General statements like this are inadequate, particularly after years of evidence that torture was authorised at the highest levels and utilised by US forces," he said.

Protection

The White House declined to say whether the CIA currently had a detention and interrogation programme.

But it said that if it did, the agency had to adhere to the guidelines.

Gitmo is a prison, or if you'd like to be more specific, a stockade, which would be a military run prison. Why do you choose the emotive language of "concentration camp" when the facility is run as a stockade, or a brig, being that it is on a Navy base, is run?

Do you have an agenda? Oh, wait, it's EJ Armstrong, what the hell am I talking about? You need some Godwin language to beef up your emotive language.

Carry on.

DR

Gurdur · 21st July 2007, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by joshbuckley

I think American values do not really include torture, but perhaps CIA "values" do.

Uh.
Many in the CIA started leaving great big paper trails about the torture going on, in protest against being ordered to be complicit in it. You can blame the Bush cabinet far more for their pushing for immediate results regardless of ethics or costs than you can blame the CIA itself. Quite a few higher-ups and middle-ranks in the CIA also took early retirement or resigned in order not to be complicit.

Originally Posted by WildCat

I doubt that interrogation methods used by the CIA are any different now than they ever were, it is just public outrage that has changed.

Depends what period you're talking about. I assume you do know that the CIA has been through markedly different phases regarding that and other associated questions? I assume you do know about the protests from various CIA and former CIA staff?

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Really? Care to explain?

Pardalis, you might like to consider the kind of mentality that states flatly:
"Michael Moore is a traitor".
Out of experience I've found that such mentalities have such a black&white view of the world that they tend to condone anything their own side does while demonising anyone they see as an enemy.

Originally Posted by WildCat

And of course none of them existed prior to the Bush Administartion...

Good point. But hey, you're hardly the person to be discussing such complexities and realities with.

Gurdur · 21st July 2007, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

......Do you have an agenda? ...

Be fair. 90% of posters on the JREF overall have some kind of agenda.

Even I have an agenda, but I keep losing it in the muddle of papers on my desk.

Pardalis · 21st July 2007, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Gurdur

Pardalis, you might like to consider the kind of mentality that states flatly:
"Michael Moore is a traitor".
Out of experience I've found that such mentalities have such a black&white view of the world that they tend to condone anything their own side does while demonising anyone they see as an enemy.

And if you only cared to read the rest of the thread I did recognize that it was an exaggerated statement based more on emotion than on facts.

I expect you will not be referring to that statement anymore.

Darth Rotor · 21st July 2007, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Gurdur

Be fair. 90% of posters on the JREF overall have some kind of agenda.

Even I have an agenda, but I keep losing it in the muddle of papers on my desk.

Do I need to start using sarcasm tags? You can almost set your watch by EJ's predictably slanted diatribes.

DR

Gurdur · 21st July 2007, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

And if you only cared to read the rest of the thread I did recognize that it was an exaggerated statement based more on emotion than on facts.

Well, you know, that was exactly my point. The point is in the heat of war and conflict that various people start running around screaming stuff like this; makes life very unpleasant and leads to rule by fear. Such witchhunt mentality is one of my bugbears.

The other point is, simply not to be like that mentality. It's always difficult to meaningfully apologise AFTER a lynching, if you get what I mean.

Quote:

I expect you will not be referring to that statement anymore.

Depends if it gets relevant or not.

If you prefer, I can refer to your statement about Germany being the 13th party dictatorship instead; I found that statement "an exaggerated statement based more on emotion than on facts" too.

Gurdur · 21st July 2007, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Do I need to start using sarcasm tags? You can almost set your watch by EJ's predictably slanted diatribes.

DR

No, I do have an excellent ear for sarcasm; I was merely being whimsical. One of my own more predictable faults is being whimsical, most often with a dose of irony.

Pardalis · 21st July 2007, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by Gurdur

Well, you know, that was exactly my point. The point is in the heat of war and conflict that various people start running around screaming stuff like this; makes life very unpleasant and leads to rule by fear. Such witchhunt mentality is one of my bugbears.

I agree, except I don't know what bugbear means.

Quote:

If you prefer, I can refer to your statement about Germany being the 13th party dictatorship instead; I found that statement "an exaggerated statement based more on emotion than on facts" too.

That was a joke, I was making fun of Oliver's idiotic statement that the US was a two-party dictatorship.

Pardalis · 21st July 2007, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Gurdur

Well, you know, that was exactly my point. The point is in the heat of war and conflict that various people start running around screaming stuff like this; makes life very unpleasant and leads to rule by fear. Such witchhunt mentality is one of my bugbears.

BTW Gurdur, concerning what you just said, what do you think about this gem of a statement?:

Originally Posted by Tony

No. Those are not American values, they are however, conservative values.

Gurdur · 21st July 2007, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

I agree, except I don't know what bugbear means.

bugbear = bête noire

If I have to keep on this French/German/English translation for BOTH you and Oliver, I'm going to start charging you both lots. Oliver already owes me a lot of money for my asprin account.

Quote:

That was a joke, I was making fun of Oliver's idiotic statement that the US was a two-party dictatorship.

Ah. Now there you go; I didn't suspect you of having so much humour. A point to you. It WAS a baffling statement, since all it did was remind me of The 13th Warrior.

Gurdur · 21st July 2007, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

BTW Gurdur, concerning what you just said, what do you think about this gem of a statement?:

I think the USA (Tony, AFAIK, is an American) is DEEPLY polarized, split into enemy camps (Dems and Reps), who hate and loathe each other; it's quite mystifying, since there is ****-all difference on many questions between the two camps; one camp tending to be centre-right, one camp often veering into radical right.

To be very honest, I also find it very sad. I've said as much to Darth Rotor in another thread; the USA political climate is .... unhealthy for a democracy; the degree of mutual and senseless hatred is ... amazing.

To be fair, part of the fight is between a conservative POV and a deeply liberal POV, but that fight goes inside both Dems and Reps, IOW it does not mark the difference between the two camps.

ponderingturtle · 21st July 2007, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Katana

Given how low his approval rating is AND the fact that the American public was 1) kept in the dark about this just like the rest of the world and 2) has no say in what our idiot president or the CIA does, how does it follow that their behavior somehow represents "American values"?

The number of people who support such actions? I am not sure what the percentage is, but it is a significant view in the current political climate.

BPSCG · 21st July 2007, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

The number of people who support such actions? I am not sure what the percentage is, but it is a significant view in the current political climate.

For people unfamiliar with gobbledygook, here's a translation of the foregoing: "I don't know, but it's a lot and it's Bush's fault."

Ponderingturtle, could you please define what you mean by "the current political climate"? It's 80 degrees and sunny here in our nation's capital, but I'm not sure that's what you're talking about.

Thank you.

Gurdur · 21st July 2007, 10:23 AM

Talk about playing dumb.
____________________

Interestingly, the support for Bush -- the rockbottom core vote for him -- is apparently ebbing away, while core support for Dems remains constant, and the swing votes keep swinging.
____________

Anyone who demands definitions for "rockbottom", "core", "vote","ebbing" or "swinging" will be answered only with rude noises.

ponderingturtle · 21st July 2007, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

For people unfamiliar with gobbledygook, here's a translation of the foregoing: "I don't know, but it's a lot and it's Bush's fault."

Ponderingturtle, could you please define what you mean by "the current political climate"? It's 80 degrees and sunny here in our nation's capital, but I'm not sure that's what you're talking about.

Thank you.

I can't think this can possibly be serious if people have been paying attention.

The point is this, many Americans support the actions that are described as torture and such. That is why there is debate and not universal condemnation for such actions.

Look at the attempts to get anti torture legislation passed and how much of a problem that was, and certainly many pundits have made arguments in favor of torture. Hell supreme court judges have made arguments for torture.

BPSCG · 21st July 2007, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

I can't think this can possibly be serious if people have been paying attention.

Let's just say I'm a little slow. What do you mean, "the current political climate"?

WildCat · 21st July 2007, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Look at the attempts to get anti torture legislation passed and how much of a problem that was, and certainly many pundits have made arguments in favor of torture. Hell supreme court judges have made arguments for torture.

The problem is defining "torture".

Unabogie · 21st July 2007, 12:04 PM

Conservatives cheer for "water boarding"

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/0...le-guantanamo/

Pardalis · 21st July 2007, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Conservatives cheer for "water boarding"

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/0...le-guantanamo/

They do not "cheer" for it. They are being given a specific hypothetical scenario.

I guess context is not part of the Liberal vocabulary.

ponderingturtle · 21st July 2007, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Let's just say I'm a little slow. What do you mean, "the current political climate"?

Since "9/11 changed everything".

ponderingturtle · 21st July 2007, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

They do not "cheer" for it. They are being given a specific hypothetical scenario.

I guess context is not part of the Liberal vocabulary.

So your arguement is that in certain situations torture is an important tool?

I cite this as evidence for Beeps.

BPSCG · 21st July 2007, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Since "9/11 changed everything".

That's pretty vague, too. What do you mean?

Bikewer · 21st July 2007, 12:46 PM

To offer a slightly different view on the overall question, that is the American "acceptance" of such practices as part of our value system....
I've been in police work since 1968, and as such am aware of the many cases of institutionally-sanctioned (or at least ignored) use of torture by police agencies.

This is of course nothing new at all, and continues despite all attempts to get rid of it.
But this isn't about police practices, it's about public attitudes towards same. I think that it's fair to say there is a cultural attitude that police arrest "bad people", and that these people "get what they deserve".
If illegal and coercive methods of interrogation (or just punishment) are used, so be it.
I suppose you could use as reinforcement the depiction of such activities in popular film, where often the use of torture by police is depicted as heroic or necessary.
I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that a fairly large percentage of the population has an implicit trust in governmental agencies, and that "our boys", the CIA, or whoever are doing hard and dangerous work to keep us safe. They are grabbing bad people and doing what's necessary to protect us.

The idea that they may be grabbing innocent people or fabricating charges against these folks to CYA is not given much credence, or may be excused along the lines of "you've got to break some eggs".
It's been shown historically that it's very easy to dehumanize the "other" and to have little qualm about abuses to whoever these people might be.

Unabogie · 21st July 2007, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

They do not "cheer" for it. They are being given a specific hypothetical scenario.

I guess context is not part of the Liberal vocabulary.

Bullshiit.

Guilianni is specifically asked to clarify the point about water-boarding. When he gives his approval of "anything they deem necessary", there is spontaneous applause. I'm not sure what context you think is missing, since the entire portion of the debate is there to watch, but it seems clear to me what they're applauding, especially since Romney gets equal applause for demanding that we "double Guantanamo" so that people there "don't have access to lawyers" and all that nasty habeas corpus drivel.

Now you may disagree with those sentiments, but those are your frontrunners, and that is mainstream Republican dogma right there, and all the polls back that up.

ETA: Link...

http://www.newspolls.org/story.php?story_id=59

Quote:

Only 24 percent of self-described "strong Democrats" said torture is sometimes justified, compared to 66 percent of "strong Republicans."

Pardalis · 21st July 2007, 01:24 PM

Do you understand the very specific hypothetical scenario that is given to them?

Quote:

The questions in this round will be premised on a fictional, but we think plausible scenario involving terrorism and the response to it. Here is the premise: Three shopping centers near major U.S. cities have been hit by suicide bombers. Hundreds are dead, thousands injured. A fourth attack has been averted when the attackers were captured off the Florida coast and taken to Guantanamo Bay, where they are being questioned. U.S. intelligence believes that another larger attack is planned and could come at any time.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/13338/

Unabogie · 21st July 2007, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Do you understand the very specific hypothetical scenario that is given to them?

Of course. And when John McCain stated that torture is never ok, even under that hypothetical, you hear stone silence. When Guilianni says we should water-board them, there's applause.

Do you understand what the slapping of one's hands together repeatedly to make a loud sound signifies, or should we spend the next thirty posts insulting each other with inane questions?

Pardalis · 21st July 2007, 01:40 PM

What would you do in such a hypothetical situation?

21st July 2007, 04:13 AM	#1
E.J.Armstrong Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,825	Do American values now really include torture secret prisons and concentration camps? From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6909331.stm The most controversial practice allegedly used by the CIA is "water boarding" - in which prisoners are strapped to a plank over water and made to fear that they will drown. The American authorities have never confirmed they use the technique and it is unclear whether the guidelines allow it. Leonard Rubenstein, director of Physicians for Human Rights, told the Associated Press news agency that the executive order was inadequate. "What is needed now is repudiation of brutal and cruel interrogation methods." "General statements like this are inadequate, particularly after years of evidence that torture was authorised at the highest levels and utilised by US forces," he said. Protection The White House declined to say whether the CIA currently had a detention and interrogation programme. But it said that if it did, the agency had to adhere to the guidelines.
	__________________ “Everybody is somebody’s Jew. And today the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.” Primo Levi Capitalist (n) Someone who pays himself and his friends billions of dollars of your money as a reward for destroying your entire economy. Israelis are taught that Palestinians are not human beings like them. Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza

21st July 2007, 07:41 AM	#2
joshbuckley New Blood Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 18	I think American values do not really include torture, but perhaps CIA "values" do.
joshbuckley New Blood Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 18

21st July 2007, 07:52 AM	#3
Oroborus Thinker Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 238	because I can speak for all of america
Oroborus Thinker Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 238	__________________ "The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do." Eric Hoffer

21st July 2007, 08:43 AM	#5
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,768	No. Those are not American values, they are however, conservative values.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

21st July 2007, 09:02 AM	#7
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,768	Originally Posted by Pardalis Really? Care to explain? Nope. If you haven't been paying attention to the events in America over the past 5 years, its unlikely anything I say will convince you.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

21st July 2007, 08:37 AM	#4
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,111	I doubt that interrogation methods used by the CIA are any different now than they ever were, it is just public outrage that has changed. I have no idea what these "concentration camps" are of which you speak.

21st July 2007, 08:51 AM	#6
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Tony No. Those are not American values, they are however, conservative values. Really? Care to explain?

21st July 2007, 09:04 AM	#8
E.J.Armstrong Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,825	Originally Posted by WildCat I doubt that interrogation methods used by the CIA are any different now than they ever were, it is just public outrage that has changed. I have no idea what these "concentration camps" are of which you speak. If you have no idea where the concentration camps are can I point you to Guantanamo Bay for example, where people (including juveniles) have been held for years without being charged with any crime. Where the Geneva convention is redefined to allow what many people consider torture, where some have been incarcerated after being kidnapped. Where people are denied basic legal and human rights. Where people have been abused on religious grounds, where they are denied proper access to legal representatives, where people have committed suicide in despair at their treatment. The USA has set up secret camps around the world and we are not even allowed to know where they are or what methods they use, although Bush has admitted they exist. I wonder how seriously people around the world take Bush when he calls on people to stop torture or kidnapping people and to respect American values when this is the example he sets. Not very seriously methinks.
	__________________ “Everybody is somebody’s Jew. And today the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.” Primo Levi Capitalist (n) Someone who pays himself and his friends billions of dollars of your money as a reward for destroying your entire economy. Israelis are taught that Palestinians are not human beings like them. Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza Last edited by E.J.Armstrong; 21st July 2007 at 09:07 AM. Reason: Illiteracy.

21st July 2007, 09:06 AM	#9
E.J.Armstrong Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,825	Originally Posted by joshbuckley I think American values do not really include torture, but perhaps CIA "values" do. Does the CIA not act on behalf of the USA?
	__________________ “Everybody is somebody’s Jew. And today the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.” Primo Levi Capitalist (n) Someone who pays himself and his friends billions of dollars of your money as a reward for destroying your entire economy. Israelis are taught that Palestinians are not human beings like them. Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza

21st July 2007, 09:10 AM	#10
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Tony Nope. That's your call.

21st July 2007, 09:11 AM	#11
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,111	Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong If you have no idea where the concentration camps are can I point you to Guantanamo Bay for example, where people (including juveniles) have been held for years without being charged with any crime. I see. So you have decided to expand the definition of "concentration camp" beyond its accepted meaning in order to apply it to a facility for captured combatants in a war, while reaping the emotional baggage the term acquired after the Nazis used the term as a euphemism for their death camps.

21st July 2007, 09:12 AM	#12
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,111	Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong The USA has set up secret camps around the world and we are not even allowed to know where they are or what methods they use, although Bush has admitted they exist. And of course none of them existed prior to the Bush Administration...
	Last edited by WildCat; 21st July 2007 at 09:16 AM.

21st July 2007, 09:15 AM	#13
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong If you have no idea where the concentration camps are can I point you to Guantanamo Bay for example, where people (including juveniles) have been held for years without being charged with any crime. Where the Geneva convention is redefined to allow what many people consider torture, where some have been incarcerated after being kidnapped. Where people are denied basic legal and human rights. Where people have been abused on religious grounds, where they are denied proper access to legal representatives, where people have committed suicide in despair at their treatment. The USA has set up secret camps around the world and we are not even allowed to know where they are or what methods they use, although Bush has admitted they exist. I wonder how seriously people around the world take Bush when he calls on people to stop torture or kidnapping people and to respect American values when this is the example he sets. Not very seriously methinks. Given how low his approval rating is AND the fact that the American public was 1) kept in the dark about this just like the rest of the world and 2) has no say in what our idiot president or the CIA does, how does it follow that their behavior somehow represents "American values"?
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	__________________ "I think Katana is as big of a perv as the rest of us." - Dragonrock "The rationality was there, and clear and concise. The condescention was hinted at and was like french onion dip on the perfect potato chip. Tasted like woo smackdown." - Fowlsound (aka Ducky, darnit) "Katana is one quick shut-yo-mouth!" - JonnyFive StopSylviaBrowne

21st July 2007, 09:18 AM	#14
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6909331.stm The most controversial practice allegedly used by the CIA is "water boarding" - in which prisoners are strapped to a plank over water and made to fear that they will drown. The American authorities have never confirmed they use the technique and it is unclear whether the guidelines allow it. Leonard Rubenstein, director of Physicians for Human Rights, told the Associated Press news agency that the executive order was inadequate. "What is needed now is repudiation of brutal and cruel interrogation methods." "General statements like this are inadequate, particularly after years of evidence that torture was authorised at the highest levels and utilised by US forces," he said. Protection The White House declined to say whether the CIA currently had a detention and interrogation programme. But it said that if it did, the agency had to adhere to the guidelines. Gitmo is a prison, or if you'd like to be more specific, a stockade, which would be a military run prison. Why do you choose the emotive language of "concentration camp" when the facility is run as a stockade, or a brig, being that it is on a Navy base, is run? Do you have an agenda? Oh, wait, it's EJ Armstrong, what the hell am I talking about? You need some Godwin language to beef up your emotive language. Carry on. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

21st July 2007, 09:22 AM	#15
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by joshbuckley I think American values do not really include torture, but perhaps CIA "values" do. Uh. Many in the CIA started leaving great big paper trails about the torture going on, in protest against being ordered to be complicit in it. You can blame the Bush cabinet far more for their pushing for immediate results regardless of ethics or costs than you can blame the CIA itself. Quite a few higher-ups and middle-ranks in the CIA also took early retirement or resigned in order not to be complicit. Originally Posted by WildCat I doubt that interrogation methods used by the CIA are any different now than they ever were, it is just public outrage that has changed. Depends what period you're talking about. I assume you do know that the CIA has been through markedly different phases regarding that and other associated questions? I assume you do know about the protests from various CIA and former CIA staff? Originally Posted by Pardalis Really? Care to explain? Pardalis, you might like to consider the kind of mentality that states flatly: "Michael Moore is a traitor". Out of experience I've found that such mentalities have such a black&white view of the world that they tend to condone anything their own side does while demonising anyone they see as an enemy. Originally Posted by WildCat And of course none of them existed prior to the Bush Administartion... Good point. But hey, you're hardly the person to be discussing such complexities and realities with.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

21st July 2007, 09:24 AM	#16
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor ......Do you have an agenda? ... Be fair. 90% of posters on the JREF overall have some kind of agenda. Even I have an agenda, but I keep losing it in the muddle of papers on my desk.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

21st July 2007, 09:26 AM	#17
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Gurdur Pardalis, you might like to consider the kind of mentality that states flatly: "Michael Moore is a traitor". Out of experience I've found that such mentalities have such a black&white view of the world that they tend to condone anything their own side does while demonising anyone they see as an enemy. And if you only cared to read the rest of the thread I did recognize that it was an exaggerated statement based more on emotion than on facts. I expect you will not be referring to that statement anymore.

21st July 2007, 09:29 AM	#18
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by Gurdur Be fair. 90% of posters on the JREF overall have some kind of agenda. Even I have an agenda, but I keep losing it in the muddle of papers on my desk. Do I need to start using sarcasm tags? You can almost set your watch by EJ's predictably slanted diatribes. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

21st July 2007, 09:34 AM	#19
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by Pardalis And if you only cared to read the rest of the thread I did recognize that it was an exaggerated statement based more on emotion than on facts. Well, you know, that was exactly my point. The point is in the heat of war and conflict that various people start running around screaming stuff like this; makes life very unpleasant and leads to rule by fear. Such witchhunt mentality is one of my bugbears. The other point is, simply not to be like that mentality. It's always difficult to meaningfully apologise AFTER a lynching, if you get what I mean. Quote: I expect you will not be referring to that statement anymore. Depends if it gets relevant or not. If you prefer, I can refer to your statement about Germany being the 13th party dictatorship instead; I found that statement "an exaggerated statement based more on emotion than on facts" too.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

21st July 2007, 09:35 AM	#20
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Do I need to start using sarcasm tags? You can almost set your watch by EJ's predictably slanted diatribes. DR No, I do have an excellent ear for sarcasm; I was merely being whimsical. One of my own more predictable faults is being whimsical, most often with a dose of irony.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

21st July 2007, 09:39 AM	#21
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Gurdur Well, you know, that was exactly my point. The point is in the heat of war and conflict that various people start running around screaming stuff like this; makes life very unpleasant and leads to rule by fear. Such witchhunt mentality is one of my bugbears. I agree, except I don't know what bugbear means. Quote: If you prefer, I can refer to your statement about Germany being the 13th party dictatorship instead; I found that statement "an exaggerated statement based more on emotion than on facts" too. That was a joke, I was making fun of Oliver's idiotic statement that the US was a two-party dictatorship.

21st July 2007, 09:43 AM	#22
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Gurdur Well, you know, that was exactly my point. The point is in the heat of war and conflict that various people start running around screaming stuff like this; makes life very unpleasant and leads to rule by fear. Such witchhunt mentality is one of my bugbears. BTW Gurdur, concerning what you just said, what do you think about this gem of a statement?: Originally Posted by Tony No. Those are not American values, they are however, conservative values.

21st July 2007, 09:43 AM	#23
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by Pardalis I agree, except I don't know what bugbear means. bugbear = bête noire If I have to keep on this French/German/English translation for BOTH you and Oliver, I'm going to start charging you both lots. Oliver already owes me a lot of money for my asprin account. Quote: That was a joke, I was making fun of Oliver's idiotic statement that the US was a two-party dictatorship. Ah. Now there you go; I didn't suspect you of having so much humour. A point to you. It WAS a baffling statement, since all it did was remind me of The 13th Warrior.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

21st July 2007, 09:48 AM	#24
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by Pardalis BTW Gurdur, concerning what you just said, what do you think about this gem of a statement?: I think the USA (Tony, AFAIK, is an American) is DEEPLY polarized, split into enemy camps (Dems and Reps), who hate and loathe each other; it's quite mystifying, since there is ***-all difference on many questions between the two camps; one camp tending to be centre-right, one camp often veering into radical right. To be very honest, I also find it very sad. I've said as much to Darth Rotor in another thread; the USA political climate is .... unhealthy* for a democracy; the degree of mutual and senseless hatred is ... amazing. To be fair, part of the fight is between a conservative POV and a deeply liberal POV, but that fight goes inside both Dems and Reps, IOW it does not mark the difference between the two camps.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

21st July 2007, 10:06 AM	#25
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,434	Originally Posted by Katana Given how low his approval rating is AND the fact that the American public was 1) kept in the dark about this just like the rest of the world and 2) has no say in what our idiot president or the CIA does, how does it follow that their behavior somehow represents "American values"? The number of people who support such actions? I am not sure what the percentage is, but it is a significant view in the current political climate.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

21st July 2007, 10:17 AM	#26
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle The number of people who support such actions? I am not sure what the percentage is, but it is a significant view in the current political climate. For people unfamiliar with gobbledygook, here's a translation of the foregoing: "I don't know, but it's a lot and it's Bush's fault." Ponderingturtle, could you please define what you mean by "the current political climate"? It's 80 degrees and sunny here in our nation's capital, but I'm not sure that's what you're talking about. Thank you.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

21st July 2007, 10:23 AM	#27
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Talk about playing dumb. ____________________ Interestingly, the support for Bush -- the rockbottom core vote for him -- is apparently ebbing away, while core support for Dems remains constant, and the swing votes keep swinging. ____________ Anyone who demands definitions for "rockbottom", "core", "vote","ebbing" or "swinging" will be answered only with rude noises.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

21st July 2007, 11:46 AM	#28
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,434	Originally Posted by BPSCG For people unfamiliar with gobbledygook, here's a translation of the foregoing: "I don't know, but it's a lot and it's Bush's fault." Ponderingturtle, could you please define what you mean by "the current political climate"? It's 80 degrees and sunny here in our nation's capital, but I'm not sure that's what you're talking about. Thank you. I can't think this can possibly be serious if people have been paying attention. The point is this, many Americans support the actions that are described as torture and such. That is why there is debate and not universal condemnation for such actions. Look at the attempts to get anti torture legislation passed and how much of a problem that was, and certainly many pundits have made arguments in favor of torture. Hell supreme court judges have made arguments for torture.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

21st July 2007, 11:51 AM	#29
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle I can't think this can possibly be serious if people have been paying attention. Let's just say I'm a little slow. What do you mean, "the current political climate"?
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

21st July 2007, 11:53 AM	#30
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,111	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Look at the attempts to get anti torture legislation passed and how much of a problem that was, and certainly many pundits have made arguments in favor of torture. Hell supreme court judges have made arguments for torture. The problem is defining "torture".

21st July 2007, 12:04 PM	#31
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,860	Conservatives cheer for "water boarding" http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/0...le-guantanamo/

21st July 2007, 12:08 PM	#32
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Unabogie Conservatives cheer for "water boarding" http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/0...le-guantanamo/ They do not "cheer" for it. They are being given a specific hypothetical scenario. I guess context is not part of the Liberal vocabulary.

21st July 2007, 12:20 PM	#33
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,434	Originally Posted by BPSCG Let's just say I'm a little slow. What do you mean, "the current political climate"? Since "9/11 changed everything".
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

21st July 2007, 12:22 PM	#34
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,434	Originally Posted by Pardalis They do not "cheer" for it. They are being given a specific hypothetical scenario. I guess context is not part of the Liberal vocabulary. So your arguement is that in certain situations torture is an important tool? I cite this as evidence for Beeps.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

21st July 2007, 12:26 PM	#35
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Since "9/11 changed everything". That's pretty vague, too. What do you mean?
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.