Neurotheology / Religion Purpose Question

[INRM]

Other than to believe in something higher than ones self for the purpose of trusting one's parents and adapting for life in a society... does religion also serve a purpose in the brain for helping "Guide people along through their life"?

[kellyb]

Seems that it serves sociological purposes, too. Believing in divine protection might be useful for the group in times of war (at the expense of the individual).

[Big Al]

Or to gather wealth and prestige for the priesthood.

[Dave1001]

Religion and prayer has situational individual functional utility. For example, I pray to god and make promises to be a good person whenever a plane I'm on encounters turbulence. It's a more efficient way to keep me calm and appropriately behaved in those situations than many hours of psychotherapy or than getting drunk every time I fly. At the same time, a more efficient solution than prayer might eventually be innovated for people like me, in which case I'd gladly go for the more efficient, optimized solution to the problem of irrational, disabling fear while flying.

[rittjc]

Originally Posted by Dave1001

Religion and prayer has situational individual functional utility. For example, I pray to god and make promises to be a good person whenever a plane I'm on encounters turbulence. It's a more efficient way to keep me calm and appropriately behaved in those situations than many hours of psychotherapy or than getting drunk every time I fly. At the same time, a more efficient solution than prayer might eventually be innovated for people like me, in which case I'd gladly go for the more efficient, optimized solution to the problem of irrational, disabling fear while flying.

There are many studies like people in hospitals with faith spend about half the time there. Just google them. They are all over the place.

Not believing in a higher power doesn't quench your need for one. It just means you needed worry about it giving you help in your time of need.

I know atheism causes intense bitterness that can't be good for the body so that faith has an affect.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by rittjc

There are many studies like people in hospitals with faith spend about half the time there. Just google them. They are all over the place.

....

It's clear you are here to preach and condemn us all the hell because we don't believe what you believe.

But allow me to challenge you on sin here.

The statement above, "There are many studies like people in hospitals with faith spend about half the time there", is a false statement. I've 'Googled' such data many times before. There is a small health benefit belonging to a church, but the same is true for belonging to other social groups be they family or friends. Studies on the benefit of prayer have never shown a benefit in properly designed studies. We've spent pages discussing such research. In fact, I do believe if in a properly designed study you had solid evidence of any gods actually answering prayers or healing people it would satisfy the JREF million dollar challenge. No one has come forward yet. You should go for it if you really 'believe'.

Since the statement is false, either you or someone who started the false rumor was likely aware they were lying. And since bearing false witness is a violation of one of God's Commandments then that means someone likely told lies in order to make God look better than he really is. And that would be a sin.

What do you think?

[Miss Anthrope]

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

It's clear you are here to preach and condemn us all the hell because we don't believe what you believe.

But allow me to challenge you on sin here.

The statement above, "There are many studies like people in hospitals with faith spend about half the time there", is a false statement. I've 'Googled' such data many times before. There is a small health benefit belonging to a church, but the same is true for belonging to other social groups be they family or friends. Studies on the benefit of prayer have never shown a benefit in properly designed studies. We've spent pages discussing such research. In fact, I do believe if in a properly designed study you had solid evidence of any gods actually answering prayers or healing people it would satisfy the JREF million dollar challenge. No one has come forward yet. You should go for it if you really 'believe'.

Since the statement is false, either you or someone who started the false rumor was likely aware they were lying. And since bearing false witness is a violation of one of God's Commandments then that means someone likely told lies in order to make God look better than he really is. And that would be a sin.

What do you think?

[Miss Anthrope]

Originally Posted by rittjc

There are many studies like people in hospitals with faith spend about half the time there. Just google them. They are all over the place.

You're making the claim, you do the work. There are studies all over the internet regarding a whole lot of nonsense. The quality of the study is what is important. If you're going to state this as fact and expect to be taken seriously, warm up those fingers and show us your google-fu.

Originally Posted by rittjc

Not believing in a higher power doesn't quench your need for one. It just means you needed worry about it giving you help in your time of need.

How would you know? Furthermore, having a need for something doesn't mean that need can or will be properly filled. If someone is afraid of death, they may cling desperately to any philosophy supporting an afterlife to provide them comfort. How you arrive at the rationale that needing to believe something makes that something true is quite a leap.

Originally Posted by rittjc

I know atheism causes intense bitterness that can't be good for the body so that faith has an affect.

It seems it is quite impossible for you to try to make a point without throwing in a snide remark. This is nothing new for you. Once again, believing something doesn't make it true. Sticks and stones, my child. Sticks and stones.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by rittjc

I know atheism causes intense bitterness that can't be good for the body so that faith has an affect.

With the amount of straw you've dragged into this forum it's a wonder the fire marshal hasn't shut us down.

I have a wife and a two year old son. I love them both with all my being. When I look at my son I know that I would gladly die to protect him. Just playing with my son fills me with the most intense joy. I have many dear friends and family whom I also love and take great joy in. I have a small squad of cats because I'm such a sucker for a stray. My wife and I like to do things to help others in the community because we think it's the right thing to do and we want our son to grow up with those values. I enjoy my life tremendously.

If you really think that all atheists are bitter, angry people (can anyone say projection?) then you are even more small minded than I thought.

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by INRM

Other than to believe in something higher than ones self for the purpose of trusting one's parents and adapting for life in a society...

Does this mean you believe in a deity so that you can trust your parents?
That doesn't make any sense.
Would you care to try rephrasing?

[JoeTheJuggler]

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

The statement above, "There are many studies like people in hospitals with faith spend about half the time there", is a false statement.
<snip>

Since the statement is false, either you or someone who started the false rumor was likely aware they were lying. And since bearing false witness is a violation of one of God's Commandments then that means someone likely told lies in order to make God look better than he really is. And that would be a sin.

What do you think?

This part reminds me of frequent claims that whether God exists or not that religion makes society better. It's another often repeated and seldom challenged assertion.

Here's an article from the Journal of Religion and Society that puts that myth to rest:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by rittjc

I know atheism causes intense bitterness that can't be good for the body so that faith has an affect.

Can you give the basis of your knowledge? Or did you mean to say:
"I would like it to be true that atheism ..."
And what does 'so that faith has an affect' mean? Do you think that your belief (faith) that atheism causes extreme bitterness causes 'faith' to have some sort of effect on something? if so, what effect does it have, and on what does it have that effect?

[casebro]

Neurotheology ? Who invented the misuse of that word? It ought to mean that thinking religious thoughts establish new neural networks in the brain. Instead this thread is about theology based effects on society.

[Dymanic]

Originally Posted by INRM

does religion also serve a purpose in the brain for helping "Guide people along through their life"?

Maybe so, but I wouldn't be quick to infer that it is therefore an adaptation. The ability to perform long division can also serve to help people through their lives, but most any fourth grader will testify that the human brain is not designed for such work. I see religion as merely one possible consequence of "herd instinct" operating in concert with "assumption of agency".

Originally Posted by rittjc

I know atheism causes intense bitterness that can't be good for the body so that faith has an affect.

Some of the most intensely bitter individuals I've met were fundamentalist Christians.

[INRM]

Neurotheology could also include how the design and operation of the brain gives rise to religious feelings/thougts

[Schneibster]

As a matter of fact, there is such a discipline. There is, predictably, a certain amount of controversy surrounding it. There is a Wikipedia article on it, though there are sourcing problems. A search would pull up some papers, I expect.

[INRM]

Quote:

"According to McKinney's theory, pre-frontal development, in humans, creates an illusion of chronological time as a fundamental part of normal adult cognition past the age of three. The inability of the adult brain to retrieve earlier images experienced by an infantile brain creates questions such as "where did I come from" and "where does it all go", which McKinney suggests led to the creation of various religious explanations. The experience of death as a peaceful regression into timelessness as the brain dies..."

So this is saying that if humans were immediately able to perceive time from birth they wouldn't wonder where they came from, and where they will go? Or would the odds be significantly reduced, etc?

Tony L.

[INRM]

Nobody?

Tony L.

[Dymanic]

Originally Posted by INRM

Neurotheology could also include how the design and operation of the brain gives rise to religious feelings/thougts

Certain features of the human brain may permit (or perhaps even invite) some patterns of thinking/feeling more easily than others, but (again) attributing some particular type of thinking/feeling to specific brain features does not establish that those features evolved for that purpose, or that they were later co-opted for that purpose due to their adaptive value.

Certain features of the human hand make it well suited to typing on a keyboard or playing a piano, and genetically-driven nuances of individual neurology may predispose some to greater skill in such areas, but referring to "keyboarding genes" is the tail wagging the dog.

It may be interesting and potentially useful to examine how certain types of brain activity correlate with certain subjective experiences, but I'd be cautious in reaching conclusions, being constantly on the lookout for hidden assumptions, and at all times keeping in mind a famous saying: "If the human mind were simple enough to understand, we'd be too simple to understand it".

[INRM]

My question though is...

Is it the reason that people cannot retrive their memories from ages prior to 2 or 3 that they wonder "where did I come from", and also leading to "where will I go"?

Or would people still be that way if they could remember their first experiences? I mean... a person's born, and even if they were sentient and able to remember from the get-go -- Would they still wonder "where did I come from"? I think it's possible since they can't recall from the time they didn't exist... maybe I'm wrong but I have doubts as to that exact theory.

Although even if a person wondered where they came from if they had memories from the get-go, I would suspect it being far less extreme than if they couldn't easily or at all, retreive their first 2 years or so.

What are your opinions regarding this particular area?

[INRM]

Nobody got an answer?

I'm suprized nobody's even ventured a guess

[Dymanic]

Perhaps there are some so self-centered that their interests begin and end with the questions "where did I come from?" and "where will I go?". I doubt it, and therefore I don't find the question very interesting. If there are such people, I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if they turned to religion (Christianity in particular) for the answers, though if they did that, what they'd actually get are answers to broader questions like "where did WE come from?" and "where did IT ALL come from?"

As a theory for the origins of religious belief themselves, it seems... weak. And vague. And impossible to test. And I think the broader discussion suffers from conflation of two separate issues: religious beliefs (ideas, explanations, opinions), and religious experiences (visions, feelings of euphoria, whatever).

[INRM]

So you are saying that the theory of why people wonder where they come from being because they cannot retreive the first 3 years of life memories is weak?

Anyone agree, disagree?

Also, if anybody has the answer... if a person could retrieve memories of the first instant of life, would there be any difference?

Tony

[INRM]

Nobody?