Bush Plotted To Stage a Coup and Turn our Country Fascist?

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 03:36 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/...document.shtml

Boo · 25th July 2007, 03:40 PM

Quote:

The coup was aimed at toppling President Franklin D Roosevelt with the help of half-a-million war veterans. The plotters, who were alleged to involve some of the most famous families in America, (owners of Heinz, Birds Eye, Goodtea, Maxwell Hse & George Bush’s Grandfather, Prescott) believed that their country should adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression.

Your thread title appears to be somewhat misleading.....

Boo

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Boo

Your thread title appears to be somewhat misleading.....

Boo

I prefer the term..."eye-catching".

Pardalis · 25th July 2007, 03:43 PM

George W Bush was born in 1946.

Conspiracy theories are thataway

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

George W Bush was born in 1946.

Conspiracy theories are thataway

I take it you didn't listen to the report?

hgc · 25th July 2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

owners of Heinz, Birds Eye, Goodtea, Maxwell Hse & George Bush’s Grandfather, Prescott

Uh, is this a coup of industrial food giants? Perhaps the Jolly Green Giant? Ho, ho, ho?

Pardalis · 25th July 2007, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

I take it you didn't listen to the report?

So you listen to one report and think it's automatically the truth? Did you try to corroborate that story?

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by hgc

Uh, is this a coup of industrial food giants? Perhaps the Jolly Green Giant? Ho, ho, ho?

I just thought that the revelation that the grandfather of our sitting President may have plotted to violently overthrow our government with an army of 500,000 mercenaries to install an oligarchy was pretty fascinating, in light of..you know...our sitting President.

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

So you listen to one report and think it's automatically the truth? Did you try to corroborate that story?

Kindly put those goal posts back where you found them, ok?

You said:

Quote:

George W Bush was born in 1946.

Conspiracy theories are thataway

Which clearly implied that since George Bush wasn't born, this was a conspiracy theory. Your problem there is that it exposed the fact that you hadn't understood the report, or perhaps hadn't even read it before posting.

That being said, I'll humor you on this and say that my thread title has a question mark in it, which clearly shows, ala Fox News, that I'm merely asking the question, based on this report.

We do know that Prescott Bush had assets seized for allegedly trading with the enemy. Obviously there was animosity there on the part of FDR. Now, the report comes out that a plot, testified to by an American General, may have included Prescott Bush.

Confirmed? Who said it was confirmed? Worthy of discussion? Why not?

Pardalis · 25th July 2007, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Confirmed? Who said it was confirmed? Worthy of discussion? Why not?

Claims of conspiracy based on little or no clear evidence are conspiracy theories.

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

So you listen to one report and think it's automatically the truth? Did you try to corroborate that story?

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Claims of conspiracy based on little or no clear evidence are conspiracy theories.

There's evidence. You have sworn testimony from a US General. You have a congressional report.

Quote:

The Congressional committee report confirmed Butler's testimony:

In the last few weeks of the committee's official life it received evidence showing that certain persons had made an attempt to establish a fascist government in this country.

No evidence was presented and this committee had none to show a connection between this effort and any fascist activity of any European country.

There is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient.

This committee received evidence from Maj. Gen Smedley D. Butler (retired), twice decorated by the Congress of the United States. He testified before the committee as to conversations with one Gerald C. MacGuire in which the latter is alleged to have suggested the formation of a fascist army under the leadership of General Butler.[21]

MacGuire denied these allegations under oath, but your committee was able to verify all the pertinent statements made by General Butler, with the exception of the direct statement suggesting the creation of the organization. This, however, was corroborated in the correspondence of MacGuire with his principal, Robert Sterling Clark, of New York City, while MacGuire was abroad studying the various forms of veterans organizations of Fascist character.[22]

Even though the Senate committee did take the threat seriously and did verify that a fascist coup was indeed well past the planning stage, the Senate committee expired.

Ok, so this is an interesting bit of US history. Nothing earth-shattering. But what the BBC is claiming is that Prescott Bush was one of the backers.

How is that not worthy of discussion (my snarky thread title aside)?

volatile · 25th July 2007, 04:17 PM

This could have been an interesting thread if you hadn't phrased and pitched it in such a way that everyone would (rightly) jump on you as a paranoid CT fantasist.

We have a lot of those around here, and it's best to avoid looking like one if you want a sensible conversation, even if you are only joking about your conspiratorial leanings.

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by volatile

This could have been an interesting thread if you hadn't phrased and pitched it in such a way that everyone would (rightly) jump on you as a paranoid CT fantasist.

We have a lot of those around here, and it's best to avoid looking like one if you want a sensible conversation, even if you are only joking about your conspiratorial leanings.

Ok, fine. I fudged the title to get a rise. I freely admit that. But still, this is a report from a reputable news source that Prescott Bush participated in a coup plot to turn our country into a dictatorship. In light of his son's tenure as President, it seems relevant.

volatile · 25th July 2007, 04:25 PM

Indeed. BoingBoing have picked this up, and have linked to some more information.

They quote someone who seems to be in the know, who says: "I think I should also mention that Prescott Bush, though he later openly expressed sympathies to Hitler, was not specifically involved with the 1933/34 coup attempt. This was mainly engineered by J.P. Morgan's forces."

volatile · 25th July 2007, 04:29 PM

Oh, on top of that - would you like to be judged by the actions of your grandfather? Would comparisons be relevant?

Pardalis · 25th July 2007, 04:30 PM

Seems everything is revolving around one man's claim, Butler's. I wouldn't call it very convincing evidence.

JimBenArm · 25th July 2007, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Ok, fine. I fudged the title to get a rise. I freely admit that. But still, this is a report from a reputable news source that Prescott Bush participated in a coup plot to turn our country into a dictatorship. In light of his son's tenure as President, it seems relevant.

Why? What my grandfathers did has absolutely no relevence to anything I do. Nothing my father did does either, for that matter. It's absurd to say this, unless he was there participating in it with him. Just taking cheap shots.

volatile · 25th July 2007, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Seems everything is revolving around one man's claim, Butler's. I wouldn't call it very convincing evidence.

It seems that way at first glance, although there may have been more in order to justify a Congressional Investigation.

It certainly seems pretty spurious, though. I mean, a secret coup is all very Hollywood, isn't it? Similar fascist sympathisers in the UK - people like Oswald Mosely - were very open about their fascist platform, and sought election through normal means. I can't see why those with similar views in the US would resort to secret coups, with implausible plots straight out of the movies.

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by JimBenArm

Why? What my grandfathers did has absolutely no relevence to anything I do. Nothing my father did does either, for that matter. It's absurd to say this, unless he was there participating in it with him. Just taking cheap shots.

On this point, and in response to Volatile, yes I think it's appropriate in some circumstances. A person raised in a KKK family, who then enters politics, will be judged differently if they let loose with a racial slur, or are fighting hard against issues affecting minorities than someone who was not. How a person is raised is very relevant to how they turn out (in most cases). In this case, if Prescott Bush was a man who actively tried to turn our country into an oligarchy, then that serves to inform us about George Bush, considering the way GWB has conducted himself.

Prescott's actions don't condemn George. But George's actions become clearer when put in the context of his *possible* upbringing.

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Seems everything is revolving around one man's claim, Butler's. I wouldn't call it very convincing evidence.

According to the BBC report, evidence has gone missing. On this point, I agree, it enters CT land. What I was remarking about was the alleged involvement, in any way, of Prescott Bush, which is a new revelation.

But still, our own Congress found that the coup plot was real, even if the evidence behind that has been expunged.

Pardalis · 25th July 2007, 04:47 PM

From one of the few witnesses to corroborate Butler's claim:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/McCorm....99s_testimony

Quote:

The CHAIRMAN. Did he say anything about what the form of the Government would be when they took the Government over?
Captain GLAZIER. Strictly a dictatorship—absolutely. That inference was very plain.
The CHAIRMAN. Did he say that?
Captain GLAZIER. Yes; he made the statement.

So the "agents" who contacted him are supposed to have said literally "let's take over the government and make it a dictatorship".

Did "they" really think Cpt Glazier would answer: "Yes, that's a very good idea, I'm in!" ???

Pardalis · 25th July 2007, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Prescott's actions don't condemn George. But George's actions become clearer when put in the context of his *possible* upbringing.

It only becomes clear when you have a confirmation bias. So are we supposed to judge people on their "possible upbringing" now?

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

It only becomes clear when you have a confirmation bias. So are we supposed to judge people on their "possible upbringing" now?

Don't get pedantic on me. I used the word "possible" because I agree with you that this report is not "fact". Therefore, I tried to be careful in using any language that begs the question.

Now, if George Bush was raised by fascist sympathizers, and then he's proceeded to run the country like a fascist (and will you now force me to recite the well worn charges against GWB or can we move on?), then it's fair to examine the relationship between his family and his actions.

By the way, this is the most boring aspect of this thread. Can we go back to the historical part now?

Gravy · 25th July 2007, 05:07 PM

Actually, George W. Bush was raised by George H.W. and Barbara Bush, who do not appear to have had fascist inclinations. George Sr. nearly lost his life fighting in what was largely a war against fascism.

Rob Lister · 25th July 2007, 05:34 PM

lol. the accusation has already made it into wiki.

gotta love wiki.

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

Actually, George W. Bush was raised by George H.W. and Barbara Bush, who do not appear to have had fascist inclinations. George Sr. nearly lost his life fighting in what was largely a war against fascism.

Well, if you want to go there, George Sr. fought in the Pacific, not in Europe, so he could indeed have had dual loyalties. That point aside, what about Prescott Bush engaging in something like this?

Pardalis · 25th July 2007, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Well, if you want to go there, George Sr. fought in the Pacific, not in Europe

It's the same war.

Rob Lister · 25th July 2007, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

That point aside, what about Prescott Bush engaging in something like this?

donno. is there any evidence?

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Rob Lister

donno. is there any evidence?

It's in the original post.

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

It's the same war.

Yes of course. I'm simply saying that he wasn't fighting the Italians or the Germans, which means that he could possibly still have felt sympathy for the fascists, as his father demonstrably did, even though I'm not claiming he did.

The fact that he fought against the Japanese is not dispostive in that regard, as the poster suggested.

Pardalis · 25th July 2007, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Yes of course. I'm simply saying that he wasn't fighting the Italians or the Germans, which means that he could possibly still have felt sympathy for the fascists

This doesn't make sense. Both fronts had the same goal, to win WW2 on all fronts.

Quote:

as his father demonstrably did, even though I'm not claiming he did.

Prescott Bush had sympathies for Germany and Italy? And during the war? Care to provide proof?

WildCat · 25th July 2007, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by volatile

Oh, on top of that - would you like to be judged by the actions of your grandfather? Would comparisons be relevant?

Family rumor has it my great-grandfather supported Hitler. But only because they were refugees from Alcase-Lorraine, and thought Hitler would get them their land back.

hgc · 25th July 2007, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

I just thought that the revelation that the grandfather of our sitting President may have plotted to violently overthrow our government with an army of 500,000 mercenaries to install an oligarchy was pretty fascinating, in light of..you know...our sitting President.

Yes, I do too. I just find CT'ers who can't spell their own subject matter correctly even more interesting. The article you link to says Birds Eye instead of Birdseye, Maxwell Hse instead of Maxwell House, and I've never heard of Goodtea.

I'm reminded of JFK conspiracy nut and sometime ersatz presidential candidate Michael Badnarik, who can't properly spell Dealy Plaza or Zapruder.

FactCheck · 25th July 2007, 07:02 PM

Would someone looking to become a dictator:

* create a place where people can be put in jail without a trial

* wiretap without having to go to a court and keep secret the people they wiretap. Even when they were proven not to be terrorists

* create a law that says the election is scrapped if there is a terror attack

* Waterboard people to get information

* Keep people scared

* Have an endless war

* Allow terrorists to regain strength

* Have an urban war in another country. A training exercise?

Let me make this clear. /me does not have evidence Bush is planning to become a dictator! I'm only suggesting everyone not think it's IMPOSSIBLE and take steps so that NO president can do what Bush is doing. Because someone else down the road might see these changes in rights as a stepping stone to dictatorship.

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Prescott Bush had sympathies for Germany and Italy? And during the war? Care to provide proof?

He had his assets seized in 1942 for "trading with the enemy" (Germany). So I guess doing business with the Germans while we were at war with them isn't sympathetic?

I guess under the most charitable interpretation, one could argue that business != sympathizing, but that'd be quite ironic considering that GW Bush just signed an order which freezes the assets of those who do business with or support the insurgency in Iraq.

lionking · 25th July 2007, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Family rumor has it my great-grandfather supported Hitler. But only because they were refugees from Alcase-Lorraine, and thought Hitler would get them their land back.

Now that we are into family histories, one of my grandfathers was banged up for stealing a horse, was convicted of a range of other offences and we charged (but not convicted) of rape. Here's someone who likes to think that the fruit has fallen a long way from the tree.

JimBenArm · 25th July 2007, 07:47 PM

I see. His grandfather may (MAY) have had evil plans, but his father served his country with honor, and was President, and left office, turning over power freely to his opponent. Yet, his GRANDFATHER had a bigger, evil influence.

Makes sense to me. Get a rope.

Oh, BTW, seems we're still holding free elections in 2008. Just thought you'd like to know that, when looking for proof of your "oligarchy".

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by hgc

Yes, I do too. I just find CT'ers who can't spell their own subject matter correctly even more interesting. The article you link to says Birds Eye instead of Birdseye, Maxwell Hse instead of Maxwell House, and I've never heard of Goodtea.

I'm reminded of JFK conspiracy nut and sometime ersatz presidential candidate Michael Badnarik, who can't properly spell Dealy Plaza or Zapruder.

Wait. You're quibbling about a misspelling on the BBC website, which is, as you probably should guess, maintained by someone other than the BBC reporter who created the documentary and is making the charge?

I've heard of poisoning the well, but this is like poisoning the well in the next county.

Unabogie · 25th July 2007, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by JimBenArm

I see. His grandfather may (MAY) have had evil plans, but his father served his country with honor, and was President, and left office, turning over power freely to his opponent. Yet, his GRANDFATHER had a bigger, evil influence.

Strawman. I never claimed his grandfather had a bigger influence than his father. I claimed that a BBC report suggests that his grandfather plotted to overthrow the federal government in 1933. Seems like an important thing to know.

Quote:

Makes sense to me. Get a rope.

Why would anyone need this charge to condemn George Bush, considering the things he's actually done as President?

Quote:

Oh, BTW, seems we're still holding free elections in 2008. Just thought you'd like to know that, when looking for proof of your "oligarchy".

Who claimed we weren't? Do you always rely so heavily on the use of straw man arguments, or is it just for me? And the proof of the "oligarchy" is in the policies. When corporations essentially write legislation that goes directly from a lobbyist to the house floor, how would you describe that?

An oligarchy means government by the elite. Do you not think that corporations and wealthy donors have more say in government than you do? How can you not? Did you even follow the Enron case? The Abramoff case?

David Wong · 25th July 2007, 08:07 PM

I think he's got a point. When you see the way JFK basically turned Washington into a giant bootlegging operation...

25th July 2007, 03:36 PM	#1
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Bush Plotted To Stage a Coup and Turn our Country Fascist? http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/...document.shtml

25th July 2007, 03:40 PM	#2
Boo ts Join Date: May 2003 Location: state of chaos Posts: 3,743	Quote: The coup was aimed at toppling President Franklin D Roosevelt with the help of half-a-million war veterans. The plotters, who were alleged to involve some of the most famous families in America, (owners of Heinz, Birds Eye, Goodtea, Maxwell Hse & George Bush’s Grandfather, Prescott) believed that their country should adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression. Your thread title appears to be somewhat misleading..... Boo
	__________________ Wounds heal. Morally Obtuse. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.

25th July 2007, 03:43 PM	#4
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	George W Bush was born in 1946. Conspiracy theories are thataway
	Last edited by Pardalis; 25th July 2007 at 03:47 PM.

25th July 2007, 03:52 PM	#6
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,984	Quote: owners of Heinz, Birds Eye, Goodtea, Maxwell Hse & George Bush’s Grandfather, Prescott Uh, is this a coup of industrial food giants? Perhaps the Jolly Green Giant? Ho, ho, ho?
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

25th July 2007, 04:14 PM	#11
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by Pardalis So you listen to one report and think it's automatically the truth? Did you try to corroborate that story? Originally Posted by Pardalis Claims of conspiracy based on little or no clear evidence are conspiracy theories. There's evidence. You have sworn testimony from a US General. You have a congressional report. Quote: The Congressional committee report confirmed Butler's testimony: In the last few weeks of the committee's official life it received evidence showing that certain persons had made an attempt to establish a fascist government in this country. No evidence was presented and this committee had none to show a connection between this effort and any fascist activity of any European country. There is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient. This committee received evidence from Maj. Gen Smedley D. Butler (retired), twice decorated by the Congress of the United States. He testified before the committee as to conversations with one Gerald C. MacGuire in which the latter is alleged to have suggested the formation of a fascist army under the leadership of General Butler.[21] MacGuire denied these allegations under oath, but your committee was able to verify all the pertinent statements made by General Butler, with the exception of the direct statement suggesting the creation of the organization. This, however, was corroborated in the correspondence of MacGuire with his principal, Robert Sterling Clark, of New York City, while MacGuire was abroad studying the various forms of veterans organizations of Fascist character.[22] Even though the Senate committee did take the threat seriously and did verify that a fascist coup was indeed well past the planning stage, the Senate committee expired. Ok, so this is an interesting bit of US history. Nothing earth-shattering. But what the BBC is claiming is that Prescott Bush was one of the backers. How is that not worthy of discussion (my snarky thread title aside)?

25th July 2007, 03:43 PM	#3
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by Boo Your thread title appears to be somewhat misleading..... Boo I prefer the term..."eye-catching".

25th July 2007, 03:49 PM	#5
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by Pardalis George W Bush was born in 1946. Conspiracy theories are thataway I take it you didn't listen to the report?

25th July 2007, 03:56 PM	#7
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Unabogie I take it you didn't listen to the report? So you listen to one report and think it's automatically the truth? Did you try to corroborate that story?

25th July 2007, 03:59 PM	#8
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by hgc Uh, is this a coup of industrial food giants? Perhaps the Jolly Green Giant? Ho, ho, ho? I just thought that the revelation that the grandfather of our sitting President may have plotted to violently overthrow our government with an army of 500,000 mercenaries to install an oligarchy was pretty fascinating, in light of..you know...our sitting President.

25th July 2007, 04:07 PM	#9
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by Pardalis So you listen to one report and think it's automatically the truth? Did you try to corroborate that story? Kindly put those goal posts back where you found them, ok? You said: Quote: George W Bush was born in 1946. Conspiracy theories are thataway Which clearly implied that since George Bush wasn't born, this was a conspiracy theory. Your problem there is that it exposed the fact that you hadn't understood the report, or perhaps hadn't even read it before posting. That being said, I'll humor you on this and say that my thread title has a question mark in it, which clearly shows, ala Fox News, that I'm merely asking the question, based on this report. We do know that Prescott Bush had assets seized for allegedly trading with the enemy. Obviously there was animosity there on the part of FDR. Now, the report comes out that a plot, testified to by an American General, may have included Prescott Bush. Confirmed? Who said it was confirmed? Worthy of discussion? Why not?

25th July 2007, 04:09 PM	#10
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Unabogie Confirmed? Who said it was confirmed? Worthy of discussion? Why not? Claims of conspiracy based on little or no clear evidence are conspiracy theories.

25th July 2007, 04:17 PM	#12
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,730	This could have been an interesting thread if you hadn't phrased and pitched it in such a way that everyone would (rightly) jump on you as a paranoid CT fantasist. We have a lot of those around here, and it's best to avoid looking like one if you want a sensible conversation, even if you are only joking about your conspiratorial leanings.
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'.

25th July 2007, 04:22 PM	#13
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by volatile This could have been an interesting thread if you hadn't phrased and pitched it in such a way that everyone would (rightly) jump on you as a paranoid CT fantasist. We have a lot of those around here, and it's best to avoid looking like one if you want a sensible conversation, even if you are only joking about your conspiratorial leanings. Ok, fine. I fudged the title to get a rise. I freely admit that. But still, this is a report from a reputable news source that Prescott Bush participated in a coup plot to turn our country into a dictatorship. In light of his son's tenure as President, it seems relevant.

25th July 2007, 04:25 PM	#14
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,730	Indeed. BoingBoing have picked this up, and have linked to some more information. They quote someone who seems to be in the know, who says: "I think I should also mention that Prescott Bush, though he later openly expressed sympathies to Hitler, was not specifically involved with the 1933/34 coup attempt. This was mainly engineered by J.P. Morgan's forces."
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'.

25th July 2007, 04:29 PM	#15
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,730	Oh, on top of that - would you like to be judged by the actions of your grandfather? Would comparisons be relevant?
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'.

25th July 2007, 04:30 PM	#16
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Seems everything is revolving around one man's claim, Butler's. I wouldn't call it very convincing evidence.

25th July 2007, 04:32 PM	#17
JimBenArm Based on a true story! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 12,967	Originally Posted by Unabogie Ok, fine. I fudged the title to get a rise. I freely admit that. But still, this is a report from a reputable news source that Prescott Bush participated in a coup plot to turn our country into a dictatorship. In light of his son's tenure as President, it seems relevant. Why? What my grandfathers did has absolutely no relevence to anything I do. Nothing my father did does either, for that matter. It's absurd to say this, unless he was there participating in it with him. Just taking cheap shots.
	__________________ *"JimBenArm is right"* Hokulele Mom

25th July 2007, 04:35 PM	#18
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,730	Originally Posted by Pardalis Seems everything is revolving around one man's claim, Butler's. I wouldn't call it very convincing evidence. It seems that way at first glance, although there may have been more in order to justify a Congressional Investigation. It certainly seems pretty spurious, though. I mean, a secret coup is all very Hollywood, isn't it? Similar fascist sympathisers in the UK - people like Oswald Mosely - were very open about their fascist platform, and sought election through normal means. I can't see why those with similar views in the US would resort to secret coups, with implausible plots straight out of the movies.
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'.

25th July 2007, 04:43 PM	#19
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by JimBenArm Why? What my grandfathers did has absolutely no relevence to anything I do. Nothing my father did does either, for that matter. It's absurd to say this, unless he was there participating in it with him. Just taking cheap shots. On this point, and in response to Volatile, yes I think it's appropriate in some circumstances. A person raised in a KKK family, who then enters politics, will be judged differently if they let loose with a racial slur, or are fighting hard against issues affecting minorities than someone who was not. How a person is raised is very relevant to how they turn out (in most cases). In this case, if Prescott Bush was a man who actively tried to turn our country into an oligarchy, then that serves to inform us about George Bush, considering the way GWB has conducted himself. Prescott's actions don't condemn George. But George's actions become clearer when put in the context of his possible upbringing.

25th July 2007, 04:46 PM	#20
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by Pardalis Seems everything is revolving around one man's claim, Butler's. I wouldn't call it very convincing evidence. According to the BBC report, evidence has gone missing. On this point, I agree, it enters CT land. What I was remarking about was the alleged involvement, in any way, of Prescott Bush, which is a new revelation. But still, our own Congress found that the coup plot was real, even if the evidence behind that has been expunged.

25th July 2007, 04:47 PM	#21
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	From one of the few witnesses to corroborate Butler's claim: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/McCorm....99s_testimony Quote: The CHAIRMAN. Did he say anything about what the form of the Government would be when they took the Government over? Captain GLAZIER. Strictly a dictatorship—absolutely. That inference was very plain. The CHAIRMAN. Did he say that? Captain GLAZIER. Yes; he made the statement. So the "agents" who contacted him are supposed to have said literally "let's take over the government and make it a dictatorship". Did "they" really think Cpt Glazier would answer: "Yes, that's a very good idea, I'm in!" ???

25th July 2007, 04:51 PM	#22
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Unabogie Prescott's actions don't condemn George. But George's actions become clearer when put in the context of his possible upbringing. It only becomes clear when you have a confirmation bias. So are we supposed to judge people on their "possible upbringing" now?

25th July 2007, 05:00 PM	#23
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by Pardalis It only becomes clear when you have a confirmation bias. So are we supposed to judge people on their "possible upbringing" now? Don't get pedantic on me. I used the word "possible" because I agree with you that this report is not "fact". Therefore, I tried to be careful in using any language that begs the question. Now, if George Bush was raised by fascist sympathizers, and then he's proceeded to run the country like a fascist (and will you now force me to recite the well worn charges against GWB or can we move on?), then it's fair to examine the relationship between his family and his actions. By the way, this is the most boring aspect of this thread. Can we go back to the historical part now?

25th July 2007, 05:07 PM	#24
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	Actually, George W. Bush was raised by George H.W. and Barbara Bush, who do not appear to have had fascist inclinations. George Sr. nearly lost his life fighting in what was largely a war against fascism.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

25th July 2007, 05:34 PM	#25
Rob Lister Suspended Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 8,523	lol. the accusation has already made it into wiki. gotta love wiki.

25th July 2007, 05:39 PM	#26
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by Gravy Actually, George W. Bush was raised by George H.W. and Barbara Bush, who do not appear to have had fascist inclinations. George Sr. nearly lost his life fighting in what was largely a war against fascism. Well, if you want to go there, George Sr. fought in the Pacific, not in Europe, so he could indeed have had dual loyalties. That point aside, what about Prescott Bush engaging in something like this?

25th July 2007, 05:44 PM	#27
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Unabogie Well, if you want to go there, George Sr. fought in the Pacific, not in Europe It's the same war.

25th July 2007, 05:46 PM	#28
Rob Lister Suspended Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 8,523	Originally Posted by Unabogie That point aside, what about Prescott Bush engaging in something like this? donno. is there any evidence?

25th July 2007, 05:54 PM	#29
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by Rob Lister donno. is there any evidence? It's in the original post.

25th July 2007, 05:58 PM	#30
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by Pardalis It's the same war. Yes of course. I'm simply saying that he wasn't fighting the Italians or the Germans, which means that he could possibly still have felt sympathy for the fascists, as his father demonstrably did, even though I'm not claiming he did. The fact that he fought against the Japanese is not dispostive in that regard, as the poster suggested.

25th July 2007, 06:07 PM	#31
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Unabogie Yes of course. I'm simply saying that he wasn't fighting the Italians or the Germans, which means that he could possibly still have felt sympathy for the fascists This doesn't make sense. Both fronts had the same goal, to win WW2 on all fronts. Quote: as his father demonstrably did, even though I'm not claiming he did. Prescott Bush had sympathies for Germany and Italy? And during the war? Care to provide proof?

25th July 2007, 06:18 PM	#32
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,957	Originally Posted by volatile Oh, on top of that - would you like to be judged by the actions of your grandfather? Would comparisons be relevant? Family rumor has it my great-grandfather supported Hitler. But only because they were refugees from Alcase-Lorraine, and thought Hitler would get them their land back.

25th July 2007, 06:50 PM	#33
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,984	Originally Posted by Unabogie I just thought that the revelation that the grandfather of our sitting President may have plotted to violently overthrow our government with an army of 500,000 mercenaries to install an oligarchy was pretty fascinating, in light of..you know...our sitting President. Yes, I do too. I just find CT'ers who can't spell their own subject matter correctly even more interesting. The article you link to says Birds Eye instead of Birdseye, Maxwell Hse instead of Maxwell House, and I've never heard of Goodtea. I'm reminded of JFK conspiracy nut and sometime ersatz presidential candidate Michael Badnarik, who can't properly spell Dealy Plaza or Zapruder.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

25th July 2007, 07:02 PM	#34
FactCheck Muse Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Firmly planted in reality. Posts: 620	Would someone looking to become a dictator: * create a place where people can be put in jail without a trial * wiretap without having to go to a court and keep secret the people they wiretap. Even when they were proven not to be terrorists * create a law that says the election is scrapped if there is a terror attack * Waterboard people to get information * Keep people scared * Have an endless war * Allow terrorists to regain strength * Have an urban war in another country. A training exercise? Let me make this clear. /me does not have evidence Bush is planning to become a dictator! I'm only suggesting everyone not think it's IMPOSSIBLE and take steps so that NO president can do what Bush is doing. Because someone else down the road might see these changes in rights as a stepping stone to dictatorship.
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25th July 2007, 07:10 PM	#35
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,837	Originally Posted by Pardalis Prescott Bush had sympathies for Germany and Italy? And during the war? Care to provide proof? He had his assets seized in 1942 for "trading with the enemy" (Germany). So I guess doing business with the Germans while we were at war with them isn't sympathetic? I guess under the most charitable interpretation, one could argue that business != sympathizing, but that'd be quite ironic considering that GW Bush just signed an order which freezes the assets of those who do business with or support the insurgency in Iraq.