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Old 27th July 2007, 03:01 PM   #1
Antranik1
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Energy Healing Discussion

Hi everybody. This would be my first post on JREF. My name is Antranik, you can call me Anto for short. I live around Los Angeles, CA.

I have been reviewing the forums for the past few days and I really enjoy the fact that there are intelligent people on this forum. Sometimes the skepticism seems overwhelming but I understand the intent behind it. It's not ignorance, it's not rudeness, it's just a rational way to reveal the facts.

So what brings me here is the intriguing idea of the million dollar challenge. I practice a healing technique called "Quantum Touch" which is an "energy healing" technique. Now I know everyones going to think, oh this is bogus, this man thinks he can heal.

The fact is that Quantum Touch is something I learned 3 years ago from the book I bought off Amazon. I was looking for a book that could explain the "energetic body" (like the meridian pathways used in acupuncture) and stumbled upon this book that read, Quantum Touch: The power to heal. The kicker was that there were a slew of positive customer reviews that said it works. I put a lot of weight on the amazon customer reviews because these are real people like you and me who have simply bought the thing and reviewing it. So I ordered the book and learned the technique in less than 2 days (it's an easy read). I tried it on my mom, she had hip pain, and it worked remarkably on my first try.

I found this to be so fascinating because what I do is basically put my hands over the area that has pain (or hover over it, doesn't matter) and combine breathing techniques and body awareness exercises. There is NO physical manipulation. And the results are not hit or miss, peoples pain significantly goes down.

I ended up becoming a certified practitioner and just became an instructor (woohoo!) after more training and dedication. I did this all along side my full-time job at a bank and going to a university. I graduated with a bachelors degree (business) and slowly transitioned out of the job at the bank. I have started a career of my own where I am making a living by offering healing sessions and teach Quantum Touch to others.

This isn't a special gift that only I have, this isn't some voodoo magic, this is something real and powerful. I never thought that one day *I* would ever think about applying to this million dollar challenge. But now I am because I don't think "Quantum Touch" has been discussed before.

I would like to know what everyone thinks about this Quantum Touch. Trust me, I am not delusional. I wouldn't be pursuing this as a career and dedicating my life to it if I didn't believe there was seriously something to it.

One of the easiest ways to show that Quantum Touch works is to apply it to bones that are out of alignment. Yes, that means scoliosis (curvature of the spine) can be fixed. This is quite possibly the most visually striking change I can show skeptics because there is no physical manipulation, the client doesn't move and the changes are objecting, they cannot be ignored.

Applying this to beverages or water seems to change its properties somehow. What the actual changes are, I don't know, but plain water seems to taste significantly better. Sodas on the other hand, like pepsi or sprite, become really nasty, the viscosity changes to something more like syrup.

Since water seems to be affected by the application of Quantum Touch, I am going to be performing a controlled experiment with lentil seeds. Suppose you have a single lentil seed in every pot. You have 50 pots as the control group and 50 pots as the experimental group. The only difference between these two groups are that one is receiving plain tap water and the other is receiving plain tap water with 5-10 minutes of quantum touch applied to it. All other variables are the same (same sunshine, air circulation, humidity, hands don't touch the container to affect the temperature, cracked/overly small or large seeds are sorted, the whole shebang is taken into account). It will probably be a couple weeks until I start on that experiment but I will post the results when available. The write-up of the experiment is in such a way that it is EASILY REPEATABLE. Anyone who knows quantum touch can do the experiment and see for themselves.

Well I've written a ton up for my first post. Please let me know what I can do to legitimately prove that Quantum Touch is a real healing technique to the world. By the way, if you want to know for your own self, just buy the book and see for yourself. It's so easy a 5 year old (or a senior) can do it.

-Antranik "Anto" Kizirian

Last edited by Antranik1; 27th July 2007 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 27th July 2007, 03:43 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
Hi everybody. This would be my first post on JREF. My name is Antranik, you can call me Anto for short. I live around Los Angeles, CA.

I have been reviewing the forums for the past few days and I really enjoy the fact that there are intelligent people on this forum. Sometimes the skepticism seems overwhelming but I understand the intent behind it. It's not ignorance, it's not rudeness, it's just a rational way to reveal the facts.

So what brings me here is the intriguing idea of the million dollar challenge. I practice a healing technique called "Quantum Touch" which is an "energy healing" technique. Now I know everyones going to think, oh this is bogus, this man thinks he can heal.

The fact is that Quantum Touch is something I learned 3 years ago from the book I bought off Amazon. I was looking for a book that could explain the "energetic body" (like the meridian pathways used in acupuncture) and stumbled upon this book that read, Quantum Touch: The power to heal. The kicker was that there were a slew of positive customer reviews that said it works. I put a lot of weight on the amazon customer reviews because these are real people like you and me who have simply bought the thing and reviewing it. So I ordered the book and learned the technique in less than 2 days (it's an easy read). I tried it on my mom, she had hip pain, and it worked remarkably on my first try.

I found this to be so fascinating because what I do is basically put my hands over the area that has pain (or hover over it, doesn't matter) and combine breathing techniques and body awareness exercises. There is NO physical manipulation. And the results are not hit or miss, peoples pain significantly goes down.

I ended up becoming a certified practitioner and just became an instructor (woohoo!) after more training and dedication. I did this all along side my full-time job at a bank and going to a university. I graduated with a bachelors degree (business) and slowly transitioned out of the job at the bank. I have started a career of my own where I am making a living by offering healing sessions and teach Quantum Touch to others.

This isn't a special gift that only I have, this isn't some voodoo magic, this is something real and powerful. I never thought that one day *I* would ever think about applying to this million dollar challenge. But now I am because I don't think "Quantum Touch" has been discussed before.

I would like to know what everyone thinks about this Quantum Touch. Trust me, I am not delusional. I wouldn't be pursuing this as a career and dedicating my life to it if I didn't believe there was seriously something to it.

One of the easiest ways to show that Quantum Touch works is to apply it to bones that are out of alignment. Yes, that means scoliosis (curvature of the spine) can be fixed. This is quite possibly the most visually striking change I can show skeptics because there is no physical manipulation, the client doesn't move and the changes are objecting, they cannot be ignored.

Applying this to beverages or water seems to change its properties somehow. What the actual changes are, I don't know, but plain water seems to taste significantly better. Sodas on the other hand, like pepsi or sprite, become really nasty, the viscosity changes to something more like syrup.

Since water seems to be affected by the application of Quantum Touch, I am going to be performing a controlled experiment with lentil seeds. Suppose you have a single lentil seed in every pot. You have 50 pots as the control group and 50 pots as the experimental group. The only difference between these two groups are that one is receiving plain tap water and the other is receiving plain tap water with 5-10 minutes of quantum touch applied to it. All other variables are the same (same sunshine, air circulation, humidity, hands don't touch the container to affect the temperature, cracked/overly small or large seeds are sorted, the whole shebang is taken into account). It will probably be a couple weeks until I start on that experiment but I will post the results when available. The write-up of the experiment is in such a way that it is EASILY REPEATABLE. Anyone who knows quantum touch can do the experiment and see for themselves.

Well I've written a ton up for my first post. Please let me know what I can do to legitimately prove that Quantum Touch is a real healing technique to the world. By the way, if you want to know for your own self, just buy the book and see for yourself. It's so easy a 5 year old (or a senior) can do it.

-Antranik "Anto" Kizirian
The subjective effects you have described are identical to the effects that we see from placebo, so there is nothing particularly remarkable about that claim. Your claim about sodas would be easily tested in a double-blind manner, but I'm not sure it would be of interest for the MDC considering the new direction being taken by the JREF - i.e. you need to have a media presence so that it is more meaningful when your claim fails miserably.

Linda
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Old 27th July 2007, 03:51 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
Hi everybody. This would be my first post on JREF. My name is Antranik, you can call me Anto for short. I live around Los Angeles, CA.

I have been reviewing the forums for the past few days and I really enjoy the fact that there are intelligent people on this forum. Sometimes the skepticism seems overwhelming but I understand the intent behind it. It's not ignorance, it's not rudeness, it's just a rational way to reveal the facts.

So what brings me here is the intriguing idea of the million dollar challenge. I practice a healing technique called "Quantum Touch" which is an "energy healing" technique. Now I know everyones going to think, oh this is bogus, this man thinks he can heal.

The fact is that Quantum Touch is something I learned 3 years ago from the book I bought off Amazon. I was looking for a book that could explain the "energetic body" (like the meridian pathways used in acupuncture) and stumbled upon this book that read, Quantum Touch: The power to heal. The kicker was that there were a slew of positive customer reviews that said it works. I put a lot of weight on the amazon customer reviews because these are real people like you and me who have simply bought the thing and reviewing it. So I ordered the book and learned the technique in less than 2 days (it's an easy read). I tried it on my mom, she had hip pain, and it worked remarkably on my first try.

I found this to be so fascinating because what I do is basically put my hands over the area that has pain (or hover over it, doesn't matter) and combine breathing techniques and body awareness exercises. There is NO physical manipulation. And the results are not hit or miss, peoples pain significantly goes down.

I ended up becoming a certified practitioner and just became an instructor (woohoo!) after more training and dedication. I did this all along side my full-time job at a bank and going to a university. I graduated with a bachelors degree (business) and slowly transitioned out of the job at the bank. I have started a career of my own where I am making a living by offering healing sessions and teach Quantum Touch to others.

This isn't a special gift that only I have, this isn't some voodoo magic, this is something real and powerful. I never thought that one day *I* would ever think about applying to this million dollar challenge. But now I am because I don't think "Quantum Touch" has been discussed before.

I would like to know what everyone thinks about this Quantum Touch. Trust me, I am not delusional. I wouldn't be pursuing this as a career and dedicating my life to it if I didn't believe there was seriously something to it.

One of the easiest ways to show that Quantum Touch works is to apply it to bones that are out of alignment. Yes, that means scoliosis (curvature of the spine) can be fixed. This is quite possibly the most visually striking change I can show skeptics because there is no physical manipulation, the client doesn't move and the changes are objecting, they cannot be ignored.

Applying this to beverages or water seems to change its properties somehow. What the actual changes are, I don't know, but plain water seems to taste significantly better. Sodas on the other hand, like pepsi or sprite, become really nasty, the viscosity changes to something more like syrup.

Since water seems to be affected by the application of Quantum Touch, I am going to be performing a controlled experiment with lentil seeds. Suppose you have a single lentil seed in every pot. You have 50 pots as the control group and 50 pots as the experimental group. The only difference between these two groups are that one is receiving plain tap water and the other is receiving plain tap water with 5-10 minutes of quantum touch applied to it. All other variables are the same (same sunshine, air circulation, humidity, hands don't touch the container to affect the temperature, cracked/overly small or large seeds are sorted, the whole shebang is taken into account). It will probably be a couple weeks until I start on that experiment but I will post the results when available. The write-up of the experiment is in such a way that it is EASILY REPEATABLE. Anyone who knows quantum touch can do the experiment and see for themselves.

Well I've written a ton up for my first post. Please let me know what I can do to legitimately prove that Quantum Touch is a real healing technique to the world. By the way, if you want to know for your own self, just buy the book and see for yourself. It's so easy a 5 year old (or a senior) can do it.

-Antranik "Anto" Kizirian
Before you go ahead with your "tests", ask yourself this... if you can't prove it, if none of your tests are successful, then what? Would you be willing to accept the idea that "energy healing" may not exist?

Oh... and welcome to the forum.
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Old 27th July 2007, 03:55 PM   #4
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Here's my question:

How come when doctors cut open a human body, they cannot find any meridians? How come they cannot find anything in the body that corresponds to these energy pathways or that explains why energy might "gather" in one spot? How come they cannot measure the energy with any means known to science? What type of energy is it?

In any case, welcome to the forum. I'm glad you are looking to experiment and test these theories. I look forward to hearing the results of controlled experiments. I don't hold much hope, but I certainly hope you succeed.
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Old 27th July 2007, 04:09 PM   #5
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Welcome to the Forum, Anto!

I believe that you are taking a level-headed approach to your experience with Quantum Touch. You don't ascribe it to some mystical, ill-defined cause and seem sincere in finding out whether or not the practice has a therapeutic approach.

The tests you describe are fine as long as you maintain strict control over your natural tendency to deviate from your design in case the results reflect negatively on your hypothesis. The claims concerning scoliosis and aqueous fluids can be tested quantitatively but the instrumentation to do so is beyond your means so we'll leave that to later. The plant experiment is more demanding as you have to make sure you control all variables that you don't mean to test from biasing your results. Please take good notes and share them.

I sure wish the practice wasn't labeled "quantum" because it plainly has nothing to do with energy quanta. The effects you describe are in the macro world and have nothing to do with atomic particles. However, a rose by any other name...

If you get positive results (or even negative results), please come back and get input from Forum members. There are many here who are skilled in testing methodology and can save you a lot of library time and effort in designing your next experiment.
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Old 27th July 2007, 04:10 PM   #6
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Thanks for the replies.

Surely if I am going to apply, whatever test I am going to do is not going to be subjective. I was just sharing my observations with the sodas and such.

But like I said, curvature of the spine being corrected... Or even a simpler (and much faster) test of leveling the hips would be really easily done with dozens of people over and over and over in a day. That should be a powerful test of its power.

I need some clarification here. Would it be in JREF's interest to test whether Quantum Touch is a legitimate and effective healing technique?

Loss Leader: From what I understand, the reason we cannot measure this so-called life-force energy (or chi or prana, etc) is because we don't have the instrumentation to measure it yet. I don't know what is the nature of this "energy" or how it can be detected. But we do have instruments that can measure aspects of a persons health through MRI's, Blood tests, etc. I leave that up to the scientists and hopefully they find something.

All I could practically do right now is run experiments and see how plants are affected.
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Old 27th July 2007, 04:19 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
Loss Leader: From what I understand, the reason we cannot measure this so-called life-force energy (or chi or prana, etc) is because we don't have the instrumentation to measure it yet. I don't know what is the nature of this "energy" or how it can be detected. But we do have instruments that can measure aspects of a persons health through MRI's, Blood tests, etc. I leave that up to the scientists and hopefully they find something.
Or maybe we can't measure it because it doesn't exist. Think about this for a second, if these 'techniques' really did work, why would anyone study medicine. If healing is easy enough for a 5 yr old (or a senior as you mentioned...) don't you think EVERYBODY would know about this miraculous way of healing??? It's wishful thinking nothing more.
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Last edited by vexed; 27th July 2007 at 04:20 PM. Reason: mispelling
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Old 27th July 2007, 04:30 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
Sodas on the other hand, like pepsi or sprite, become really nasty, the viscosity changes to something more like syrup.
This sounds to me to be a far simpler and less nebulous test than your lentil seeds. Simply apply your quantum touch to 5 cans of soda, and have some neutral party mix them with 5 unaffected cans. You should get 10 out of 10 easily.

And welcome by the way. Your rational posts make a welcome change.
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Old 27th July 2007, 04:42 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by vexed View Post
Or maybe we can't measure it because it doesn't exist. Think about this for a second, if these 'techniques' really did work, why would anyone study medicine. If healing is easy enough for a 5 yr old (or a senior as you mentioned...) don't you think EVERYBODY would know about this miraculous way of healing??? It's wishful thinking nothing more.
Sure, the energy cannot be measured because it doesn't exist. Or it exists but we have no way of measuring it. The argument can go either way.

If it is proven, everybody will know of it. Just a matter of repeatable tests, peer-reviewed articles and then publicity.
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Old 27th July 2007, 04:44 PM   #10
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A simple test. Get 6 people with similar scoliosis and randomly assign them to one of 3 groups (using a completely unbiased method of random selection) and don't tell them which group they are in. Treat 2 using your method, treat two with someone pretending to use your method, and 2 untreated. Have an independent blinded observer measure the changes before and after using a reliable objective measurement such as radiographic changes.
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Old 27th July 2007, 04:49 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by lister View Post
This sounds to me to be a far simpler and less nebulous test than your lentil seeds. Simply apply your quantum touch to 5 cans of soda, and have some neutral party mix them with 5 unaffected cans. You should get 10 out of 10 easily.

And welcome by the way. Your rational posts make a welcome change.
I am completely for these beverage tests with a bunch of unopened cans of soda. The reason I am doing the experiment with seeds is because seeds are easy to come by.

The problem with taste-testing is, how do I gather the people to come? For it to be legitimate, would it have to be done through a survey company that gathers focus groups? I wouldn't know where to get these random people from. I think about these things a lot as I am meticulous and I am aware of potential weak-spots in any future experiment. Looks like this forum is going to help clear up a lot of questions!
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Old 27th July 2007, 05:09 PM   #12
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The name "Quantum Touch" is a made-up name, intended to give the technique an aura of legitimacy by connecting it to something real (quantum mechanics) that most people don't understand. And the thing is, that's true EVEN IF the technique actually works. Because, let's face it, nobody has demonstrated any mechanism by which it works, which means nobody knows that it's "quantum". The name is a transparent fraud. And again, that's true whether or not the technique itself works. I'm not saying this to call you a fraud, because you (like a lot of people) probably don't know enough about quantum mechanics to be able to evaluate what we do and don't know about it, but as someone with some experience in that area, I can say quite definitively that this healing touch cannot be shown to be quantum mechanical in nature, and therefore does not warrant the label "Quantum Touch".

So, do I think the technique works? I seriously doubt it. And there are plenty of ways that people can honestly convince themselves that something works even when it simply doesn't (confirmation bias, placebo effects, etc.). But I would caution you against getting too involved in something where even the name screams of snake oil salesman.
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Old 27th July 2007, 05:13 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
I am completely for these beverage tests with a bunch of unopened cans of soda. The reason I am doing the experiment with seeds is because seeds are easy to come by.
And soda cans aren't?

Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
The problem with taste-testing is, how do I gather the people to come? For it to be legitimate, would it have to be done through a survey company that gathers focus groups? I wouldn't know where to get these random people from. I think about these things a lot as I am meticulous and I am aware of potential weak-spots in any future experiment. Looks like this forum is going to help clear up a lot of questions!
For the moment I am simply talking about an easy and quick experiment you can do yourself to prove to yourself that you can actually successfully pass a test (as you appear to be doing with your seeds). This needs nothing more than 10 cans of soda, one honest mate and about 30 mins.

If you can't pass that, then the MDC is a pipe dream.
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Old 27th July 2007, 05:16 PM   #14
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A quick question (and I don't mean to insult your intelligence, it's nice to see level-headed arguments from the "other side"):

Why do you think this revolutionary information can be found at amazon.com, but isn't known in mainstream science and health care?
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Old 27th July 2007, 05:41 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
I am completely for these beverage tests with a bunch of unopened cans of soda. The reason I am doing the experiment with seeds is because seeds are easy to come by.

The problem with taste-testing is, how do I gather the people to come? For it to be legitimate, would it have to be done through a survey company that gathers focus groups? I wouldn't know where to get these random people from. I think about these things a lot as I am meticulous and I am aware of potential weak-spots in any future experiment. Looks like this forum is going to help clear up a lot of questions!
If you can change the viscosity of the soda significantly, then that's more than enough. You don't need to do a taste test at all.

The other way to do it is to take ten identical cans of soda. You apply the effect to five of them. Then the cans are opened and a sample from each is poured into ten glasses. Each can and glass is marked so we can track them. (You won't be present for this step, but someone you trust can be there.)

Then you take a sip from each glass and decide whether it's been affected or not.

So all it takes is you, a couple of testers, and someone you trust to watch the step where you're not present.
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Old 27th July 2007, 05:49 PM   #16
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After you do your first trial with the seeds, contact these guys if you get a positive result:

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=3&gl=us
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Old 27th July 2007, 07:12 PM   #17
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I will perform the soda taste test really soon! This weekend I'll gather a few people that can help me out.

I had contacted environmental labs in my area to see if I can send samples of regular tap water versus QT applied tap water and they see if they can run a comprehensive test to see exactly what it is that is changing. Unfortunately every lab charges $150 for each sample so that's why I thought of going ahead with the seeds.

Ziggurat: I agree with you that the term Quantum Touch is made up and probably doesn't have a verifiable connection to quantum mechanics.

Cyr: I think it is becoming more known or heard about in mainstream health care. Maybe the problem is more so a problem of integrating these radical techniques into the current system.

Thanks for all the replies, it's really fun to have so much feedback!
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Old 27th July 2007, 07:12 PM   #18
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Welcome Antranik1!

No too long ago, before the conditions of the Million Dollar Challenge were redone, one Christopher Pille contacted the JREF about demobtrating Quantum Touch.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65734

For reasons of not wanting to trash his credibility, and wanting to get onto it before someone else did, he refused to identify the method he was going to use by that name. I recognized it at once, because I was into "energy healing" for over a decade and practiced that method prior to Richard Gordon's making a book of it. Christopher and I carried on some PMs about it and I encouraged him to go for it, if the JREF was game. It was at the time, but Chris wasn't able to set up affidavits from three professinals as required.

Having first hand experience myself with various "energy" modalities, my own conclusion is the same as Linda's above. Energy work delivers a hightened placebo effect that borrows much from supportive human contact. It's great for muscle tension, aches and pains, and various cold symptoms. It's also a good adjunct to Massage Therapy.
It dose not address chronic illnesses except to ease symptomology.

Anyway, chck out the link above. We had a good discussion going there, even with some our favorite woo bashers.
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Old 27th July 2007, 08:12 PM   #19
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So, given that this is the phenomema you describe :
Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
I found this to be so fascinating because what I do is basically put my hands over the area that has pain (or hover over it, doesn't matter) and combine breathing techniques and body awareness exercises. There is NO physical manipulation. And the results are not hit or miss, peoples pain significantly goes down.
and these are your claims of the results (my bold)
Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
One of the easiest ways to show that Quantum Touch works is to apply it to bones that are out of alignment. Yes, that means scoliosis (curvature of the spine) can be fixed. This is quite possibly the most visually striking change I can show skeptics because there is no physical manipulation, the client doesn't move and the changes are objecting, they cannot be ignored.
Why, sweet jebus why, are you proposing this kind of experiment?

Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
Since water seems to be affected by the application of Quantum Touch, I am going to be performing a controlled experiment with lentil seeds. Suppose you have a single lentil seed in every pot. You have 50 pots as the control group and 50 pots as the experimental group. The only difference between these two groups are that one is receiving plain tap water and the other is receiving plain tap water with 5-10 minutes of quantum touch applied to it. All other variables are the same (same sunshine, air circulation, humidity, hands don't touch the container to affect the temperature, cracked/overly small or large seeds are sorted, the whole shebang is taken into account). It will probably be a couple weeks until I start on that experiment but I will post the results when available. The write-up of the experiment is in such a way that it is EASILY REPEATABLE.
This is not an experiment. It's, well, gardening.

What physiological response do you propose to measure (at least, with scoliosis, you have a measurable response)? Germination, growth rate, root-shoot allocation?

Why tap water? Do you plan on using soil, potting mix, vermiculite? Hydroponics?

What kind of pots? How big, what materials? Indoor, outdoors, what kind of lights - incandescent, flourescent, full-spectrum? Table top or growth chamber? Why one seed per pot?

Why 5-10 min.? Shouldn't you have a dose-reponse curve for the optimal time?

Why lentils - is there something about legumes? Dicots?

Look, I've done a few plant physiology experiments in my time - starting as a undergrad, measuring the effects of phytophtora root on soybean seedlings (started as a glorified dish washer at Pioneer Hi-breds), action potentials in Mimosa for my Masters, and soybean pod growth in my unfinished (to my great shame) Ph.D. thesis.

You can't just toss some seeds in a few pots and call it an experiment. You need to know ahead of time exactly what you are testing. My guess is that you would have more success designing an experiment on the healing aspects; that, as it appears, is where you have some practical experience.
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Old 27th July 2007, 08:16 PM   #20
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This is not an experiment. It's, well, gardening.
Well, it's a horticultural experiment. What's wrong with that?
As long as the soil and lighting is the same for both groups, I don't see what the problem is.
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Old 27th July 2007, 08:30 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Well, it's a horticultural experiment. What's wrong with that?
There's nothing being tested. What is the specific prediction of the outcome of the experiment? What will be measured to test the prediction, to measure the outcome?

Without a hypothesis to test, it's a simple case of putting seeds in pots. That's not an experiment, that's gardening. I do that kind of thing all the time, every summer at least.

Last edited by dakotajudo; 27th July 2007 at 08:31 PM. Reason: That last sentence was stupiter than it is now.
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Old 27th July 2007, 08:46 PM   #22
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Listen Dakota, first of all, I haven't given you the method of the experiment, I'm not just tossing seeds in there like you think. I have a 3 page paper written up with the process, hypothesis, method, materials, everything is written up step by step! I might not have the knowledge that you do about plants, but I know enough to carry out a controlled experiment. I will make this document available to you and anybody else tomorrow morning. You can review it and tell me what you think then. The only thing that is missing is the Results and Conclusion section, for obvious reasons.
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Old 27th July 2007, 08:50 PM   #23
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Anto...
What will you do if all the tests show that nothing's actually happening?

Have you thought about that?
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Old 27th July 2007, 08:50 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dakotajudo View Post
There's nothing being tested. What is the specific prediction of the outcome of the experiment? What will be measured to test the prediction, to measure the outcome?

Without a hypothesis to test, it's a simple case of putting seeds in pots. That's not an experiment, that's gardening. I do that kind of thing all the time, every summer at least.
The test isn't very sophisticated. It's more like a screening test than a definitive trial. You have a good point that the specific goals are not defined but the mere observation that there is an apparent difference from control to test plants or not in enough for right now.

If you have a better idea, then post it for Anto. Anto is looking for something cheap and quick, though.
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Old 27th July 2007, 09:40 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
Thanks for the replies.

Surely if I am going to apply, whatever test I am going to do is not going to be subjective. I was just sharing my observations with the sodas and such.
Subjective tests are still okay, if double-blinded. And the soda test is by far the easiest and most reliable way for you to test this for yourself (from what has been suggested so far).

Quote:
But like I said, curvature of the spine being corrected... Or even a simpler (and much faster) test of leveling the hips would be really easily done with dozens of people over and over and over in a day. That should be a powerful test of its power.
Both are too amenable to suggestion and are unreliable. It could still be tested, but it would be a much more complicated process. You'd have to collect a very large number of subjects and it may be difficult to find a placebo QT that all parties (you and JREF) would agree to be equivalent.

Quote:
I need some clarification here. Would it be in JREF's interest to test whether Quantum Touch is a legitimate and effective healing technique?
I don't speak for the JREF, but if they were to go after QT, it would be to challenge a visible proponent (maybe the author of the book you are talking about?), not to negotiate with an unknown that wouldn't have the resources to run an adequate trial anyway. You could maybe come up with an easily tested claim related to QT (such as the soda test, or the test performed by Emily Rosa for therapeutic touch), but it's hard to see how your failure or success could advance the goals of the JREF, or the practice of QT.

Linda
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Old 28th July 2007, 03:20 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Welcome Antranik1!

For reasons of not wanting to trash his credibility, and wanting to get onto it before someone else did, he refused to identify the method he was going to use by that name. I recognized it at once, because I was into "energy healing" for over a decade and practiced that method prior to Richard Gordon's making a book of it. Christopher and I carried on some PMs about it and I encouraged him to go for it, if the JREF was game. It was at the time, but Chris wasn't able to set up affidavits from three professinals as required.

Having first hand experience myself with various "energy" modalities, my own conclusion is the same as Linda's above. Energy work delivers a hightened placebo effect that borrows much from supportive human contact. It's great for muscle tension, aches and pains, and various cold symptoms. It's also a good adjunct to Massage Therapy.
It dose not address chronic illnesses except to ease symptomology.

Anyway, chck out the link above. We had a good discussion going there, even with some our favorite woo bashers.

Apathia,

Why did you practice it for so long before realising that it didn't work?

I see you also practiced Shiatsu and Craniosacral Therapy in addition to massage therapy. What did you find when you used these therapies?
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Old 28th July 2007, 05:14 AM   #27
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Lentil Experiment

This is the write-up to the experiment I had in mind. (sorry, cannot post URL's yet)

www .healththrutouch. com/lentil-experiment.pdf
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Old 28th July 2007, 05:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Anto...
What will you do if all the tests show that nothing's actually happening?

Have you thought about that?
Yes, I have thought about it. I won't stop at one test if one fails. I will try a number of them. If all of them fail, then I am in big trouble! You have to understand where I am coming from though.. I practice QT everyday and the success rate I experience seems to be well beyond any placebo effect, even if I were to do a "long-distant" session. I've done this work on hard-core skeptics too (lots of them are around as you can imagine!) and had great success.

I suppose since I'm entrenched in this kind of work I am naturally not worrisome about the tests showing nothing. I'm actually really curious myself!

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Old 28th July 2007, 05:51 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
Yes, I have thought about it. I won't stop at one test if one fails. I will try a number of them. If all of them fail, then I am in big trouble! You have to understand where I am coming from though.. I practice QT everyday and the success rate I experience seems to be well beyond any placebo effect, even if I were to do a "long-distant" session. I've done this work on hard-core skeptics too (lots of them are around as you can imagine!) and had great success.

I suppose since I'm entrenched in this kind of work I am naturally not worrisome about the tests showing nothing. I'm actually really curious myself!
What was the result of your double-blind test of the soda?

ETA: Were you planning on stopping at one test if you were successful, then? If so, do you understand the error in this kind of approach?

ETA2: Your lentil experiment as described needs a lot of work before it would be a valid test of QT. I'm hoping to save us a lot of time of effort by focussing on the fast and simple soda test.

Linda
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Old 28th July 2007, 06:34 AM   #30
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Antranik1: Good luck!

Honestly, I think that you are seeing a kind of placebo effect. Are you aware of confirmation bias?

I once believed in chiropractic because my mother took me to a chiropractor many times as a child, usually for vague symptoms like a 'lack of energy' or 'depression.' Once, I had been suffering from motion sickness every time I rode in a car, and he apparantly 'cured' me of that. This is what really convinced me. However, in retrospect, most of my visits did not accomplish anything substantial, and probably there was nothing ever physically wrong with me. It could all have been psychosomatic. I focused on that one time when the 'treatment' had a rather dramatic and immediate apparant effect. This is 'confirmation bias.' For results to have any scientific meaning, you have to design an experiment that cannot be affected by confirmation bias.

Good luck, and please tell us what you find.
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Old 28th July 2007, 07:27 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Physiotherapist View Post
Apathia,

Why did you practice it for so long before realising that it didn't work?

I see you also practiced Shiatsu and Craniosacral Therapy in addition to massage therapy. What did you find when you used these therapies?
It wasn't a clearcut works/doesn't work. These modalities have a psychosomatic benefit. It was more a matter of me sorting out what they aren't good for. I started out with the usual delusion that Reiki can cure chronic illnesses, but let go of that notion as I became more aware of what I was doing. I wasn't going to hosptals trying to work miracle cures. Mostly it was just releaving symptoms of the colds, headaches, sprains, poison oak, and romantic anxiety (Yep, I had a reputation for a while for taking away the sting of break-ups). Within that context, "energy" attention neearly always yields a postive subjective results. I've never told anyone they could substitute any kind of energy work for proper medical attention. Also I'd warn a person that just because her pain had been eased, it didn't mean she could do business as usual with an injury. I just couldn't get into charging money for it, the way Reiki likes to do. So, I never got into the so-called professional angle of "Energy Healing."
Reiki is mostly a racket taking advantage of the sometimes striking subjective results of focused human attention. That's part of the reason I shy away from energy work now.
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Old 28th July 2007, 09:09 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
Subjective tests are still okay, if double-blinded. And the soda test is by far the easiest and most reliable way for you to test this for yourself (from what has been suggested so far). {snip}
The viscosity test may not be so easy. For a reliable result, we need to know that Anto has the expertise and the proper equipment. Most particulary, the conditions need tight controls; and I wonder how that can be achieved with a carbonated beverage that is outgassing uncontrollably.
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Old 28th July 2007, 09:27 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by JJM View Post
The viscosity test may not be so easy. For a reliable result, we need to know that Anto has the expertise and the proper equipment. Most particulary, the conditions need tight controls; and I wonder how that can be achieved with a carbonated beverage that is outgassing uncontrollably.
My first thought is that the cans of pop that have been 'quantumly touched' would be warmer than those that have not been.

Also, what's different between a 'quantum touch' and a regular touch? For example, would robotic transport be required to stop a human transporter inadvertently 'quantumly touching' the cans?
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Old 28th July 2007, 10:07 AM   #34
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Quote:
One of the easiest ways to show that Quantum Touch works is to apply it to bones that are out of alignment. Yes, that means scoliosis (curvature of the spine) can be fixed. This is quite possibly the most visually striking change I can show skeptics because there is no physical manipulation, the client doesn't move and the changes are objecting, they cannot be ignored.
Fixing scoliosis! WOW! Okay, where is the evidence, because that is AMAZING. I'd like to see you do it too, and THAT should be the test.

So, what is the energy exactly (what wavelength is is, etc.), how exactly is it affecting the body to make the changes? You know, the nerves, the muscles, the bone, how does it change that stuff?
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Old 28th July 2007, 10:42 AM   #35
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Quote:
I'm actually really curious myself!
Antranik1, I appreciate your curiosity and openness on this topic. Skeptics are often criticized for being dogmatic and closed-minded, but what they are IMO is curious, like you are. It's not that we want to disprove weird stuff, it's that we want to discriminate between real weird stuff, and weird stuff that's only imagined.

Just believing without evidence shows a lack of curiosity and open-mindedness, in my view.

eta:
Quote:
So, what is the energy exactly (what wavelength is is, etc.), how exactly is it affecting the body to make the changes? You know, the nerves, the muscles, the bone, how does it change that stuff?
(slight derail)Yes, I'm wondering that too. In a discussion on another forum Chi energy, proponents were certain that this energy existed, and one person said that you could feel the resistance (or something like that) in the hands of a Chi master. But if it can't be measured, or even properly defined (in this thread no one could agree on what exactly "Chi" is) how do we know it exists? Science tells us that there is energy running through our bodies, and human beings have natural physical strength and some are capable of tremendous natural abilities. How do we know where that ends and Chi begins? (/slight derail)

If Quantum Touch energy is real, why wouldn't it be measurable? After all, measuring energy is something science has proven to be good at--scientists can accurately measure many different kinds of energy.
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Old 28th July 2007, 11:07 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Antranik1 View Post
All I could practically do right now is run experiments and see how plants are affected.
Welcome Antranik1.

Here is a simple, foolproof test you can do that may either convince you that humans can't influence life by putting hands around it, or that you are going to be wealthy soon. It won't cost you much at all, and the results will be self evident, and quick. Anybody can do this experiment.

Minimal experiment: Take two glass jars used for canning food. Place tap water in them and leave them out side uncovered for a few days, then seal the tops with the canning lids. You will observe growth of microorganisms in the water, mostly Cynobacteria, blue green algae.

When both jars are green, you may proceed. If both jars are not the same green, start over. (You can use many jars if you want to). When you have jars that look the same, you can experiment with them.

Either try it with the jars sealed, to see if you can influence one, or to really check, open both jars, and place a very tiny drop of bleach in each jar, seal the lids back.

Observe what happens. If they change color, you now have two jars of very sick algae. If no change occurs, try a tiny bit more bleach. You don't want to sterilize the water, just make it toxic to the algae.

Once you have sick jars of Cynobacteria, you can proceed.

Try healing the sick with one jar only. The results will be obvious.

The more jars you use, the better the experiment. You can do all kinds of tests this way. If you can influence the algae, with the jar sealed, using your hands, mind, whatever, you are worth several million dollars. And probably will be world famous as well. The only cost will be for the jars. Always use the exact same jars, water, lids, and leave them in the exact same locations. This is called science.

If everything is the same, except you influencing the jars with your hands/mind/energy field, you have demonstrated an new ability. If you succeed, do it again, Cheap, relatively easy, quick, and not subject to fraud, when you demonstrate your ability to skeptics.

Good luck.
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Old 28th July 2007, 11:09 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by JJM View Post
The viscosity test may not be so easy. For a reliable result, we need to know that Anto has the expertise and the proper equipment. Most particulary, the conditions need tight controls; and I wonder how that can be achieved with a carbonated beverage that is outgassing uncontrollably.
I think fls is talking about the blinded taste test, rather than the viscosity test.
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Old 28th July 2007, 11:13 AM   #38
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If you don't want to use bleach, there are natural antibiotics that are free you could try. Remember to do a control first, so you can observe what happens without any interference. If you handing the samples might change the results, have a third party do all the handling of the jars and lids and chemicals used.
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Old 28th July 2007, 11:19 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by JJM View Post
The viscosity test may not be so easy. For a reliable result, we need to know that Anto has the expertise and the proper equipment. Most particulary, the conditions need tight controls; and I wonder how that can be achieved with a carbonated beverage that is outgassing uncontrollably.
Just because he described it as a change in viscosity doesn't mean that viscosity is what needs to be measured. He claims that he can detect an obvious change in the soda, so all he does is apply his usual methods of detecting this change. As long as all the cans (active and control) are treated the same before and after the QT treatment, there shouldn't be a difference in variables like outgassing between the two groups.

Linda
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Old 28th July 2007, 11:49 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
What was the result of your double-blind test of the soda?

ETA: Were you planning on stopping at one test if you were successful, then? If so, do you understand the error in this kind of approach?

ETA2: Your lentil experiment as described needs a lot of work before it would be a valid test of QT. I'm hoping to save us a lot of time of effort by focusing on the fast and simple soda test.

Linda
Hi Linda, Yes I totally see the error in that approach. I know what you are getting at. Playing devil's advocate must be neat. I wouldn't mind testing as many things as possible to see what's affected and what's not.
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