Mechanisms of Remote Viewing

[athon]

With all of this RV talk, it got me thinking (in a 'speculative fiction' frame of mind).

What are the mechanisms for remote viewing?

Now, assuming that RV interacts with the laws of nature as they stand (surely RV advocates aren't prompting us to throw out all of the textbooks on physics, chemistry and biology?), how might it happen?

If we have a box at Point A. Inside the box is a lightsource and an object. A remote viewer is standing over the horizon at Point B. From my understanding, that RV'er should be able to discern through some means what is in that box.

Now perhaps it is either an emotional sensation or a mental image that occurs. Physically how could this be explained if you were writing a story on it?

Regarding most paranormal events, I can usually come up with some sort of 'bent logic' - ghosts, ESP, telekinesis...but I admit here I'm stuck. Do all objects emit an as yet unqualified energy? A radiation, perhaps? How could this be discerned by an individual? How does this information get received? How can we discern one source from another if this energy or information does not reduce over time or distance? Does it affect neurons? Endocrine system (hence 'emotional' reception)?

It amazes me that people always stop at 'look at the figures'. I never could do just that. Assuming that RV exists, HOW does it work? And why do believers stop where they do?

Surely there must be some theory.

Athon

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Forget some unknown type of energy. Never gonna work. I'd go with some kind of Matrix idea. The Matrix knows all. The viewer has some way to tap into the Matrix. What I can never figure out is how the viewer addresses particular information in the Matrix, how he homes in on the thing he wants to view or the person whose mind he wants to read.

~~ Paul

[Vitnir]

To try to make a theory that would both allow RV and Einstein in the same room would be futile. It's like the people that calculates the destructive power of a imperial destroyer from Star Wars. Or to try to figure out how hyperspace works from watching Babylon 5 and the jump gates. Emm hello it's Sci-Fi, it doesn't work as we know it.

Otherwise I would have to go for an "source of energy never encountered before" like Mr Spock used to say. (or something to that effect)

[athon]

I was wondering this for two reasons - one, for any possible spec' fiction ideas. But mainly I was wondering if anybody who saw credibility in the whole RV concept ever thought past the initial steps.

I mean, ever since I was a kid I wondered what was beyond the initial 'but how?'. When I learned about genetics, I hungered to understand how cystic fibrosis worked, or why trisomy 21 gave people the characteristics of Downs Syndrome.

Is this what truly separates skeptics from believers? Skeptics never stop asking 'how?' and 'why?'. Let's assume some of these paranormal beliefs exist. What are their mechanisms?

Hello? RV believers?

**crickets chirping**

Athon

[T'ai Chi]

Quote:

Originally posted by athon

Hello? RV believers?

**crickets chirping**

Athon

Um, not to be stupid, but I will be anyway, calling out RV proponents here is kind of, well, you chirping like a cricket.

Here you are preaching to the Skeptical Choir. If you want to ask RV proponents questions, you could try posting to a RV discussion board, and then report back your results here.

[Darat]

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Forget some unknown type of energy. Never gonna work. I'd go with some kind of Matrix idea. The Matrix knows all. The viewer has some way to tap into the Matrix. What I can never figure out is how the viewer addresses particular information in the Matrix, how he homes in on the thing he wants to view or the person whose mind he wants to read.

~~ Paul

Paul - did you come up with this idea on your own or had you read Psitech's website? (http://www.psitech.net/)

[athon]

I know - it's like 'if you want to go fishing, go to where there's fish'. But there were a few who gave the idea possibility, and I wanted to know if anybody here could describe a possible mechanism for it.

I'll go back into the kennel now...

Athon

[Darat]

Quote:

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Um, not to be stupid, but I will be anyway, calling out RV proponents here is kind of, well, you chirping like a cricket.

Here you are preaching to the Skeptical Choir. If you want to ask RV proponents questions, you could try posting to a RV discussion board, and then report back your results here.

Why? There are people posting on this board who not only claim RV exists & are able to RV but also claim to be sceptics.

Seems a good place to start a sceptical discussion about it.

[davidsmith73]

Quote:

Originally posted by athon
I know - it's like 'if you want to go fishing, go to where there's fish'. But there were a few who gave the idea possibility, and I wanted to know if anybody here could describe a possible mechanism for it.

I'll go back into the kennel now...

Athon

You don't ask easy questions do you !

My personal view is that the concepts on the nature of experience itself must change in order for a theory to emerge.

At the moment we don't see experiences as "things" with an existence in the same sense as physical "things" such as an electron.

If experiences are "things" capable of direct interaction just like physical things then they might become amenable to theories that describe their interactions.

[Darat]

Davidsmith73 - can you expand on what you mean by :

Quote:

Originally posted by davidsmith73

...snip...

At the moment we don't see experiences as "things" with an existence in the same sense as physical "things" such as an electron.

...snip...

?

[Darat]

Quote:

Originally posted by athon
With all of this RV talk, it got me thinking (in a 'speculative fiction' frame of mind).

What are the mechanisms for remote viewing?

...snip...

Surely there must be some theory.

Athon

Well these sites seem to offer explanations but somehow I get the impression that they would rather remain a bit vague... now why would that be... which is strange since they seem very adamant that if you are willing to pay them they can train you to RV.

http://www.psitech.net/

http://www.crviewer.com/crviewer/trainingindex.asp

https://www.trvuniversity.com/preloa...ml?entry=guest

http://www.remoteviewing2003.com/pages/1/index.htm

http://www.remoteviewers.com/htms/up...y_ordering.htm


And after reading all these sites I just wonder how there can be any missing people or mysteries in the world.




(Edited to correct "of" to "or")

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Darat asked:

Quote:

Paul - did you come up with this idea on your own or had you read Psitech's website?

Gee, now that you mention it, I had read their site awhile back. But I didn't remember that. The Matrix theory is so obvious. It just has to be right. Occam's Razor and all that, don't you know.

~~ Paul

[Darat]

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Darat asked:
Gee, now that you mention it, I had read their site awhile back. But I didn't remember that. The Matrix theory is so obvious. It just has to be right. Occam's Razor and all that, don't you know.

~~ Paul

Well you know what they say "Great minds think alike".

I am always reminded when see or hear that phrase a friend’s mother's rejoinder to that which was "And duffers seldom differ".



(Duffer, in case it is mainly a UK word, is an old slang word for someone who is stupid and slow to learn.)

[Mercutio]

Quote:

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Um, not to be stupid, but I will be anyway, calling out RV proponents here is kind of, well, you chirping like a cricket.

Here you are preaching to the Skeptical Choir. If you want to ask RV proponents questions, you could try posting to a RV discussion board, and then report back your results here.

Can't they see this board anyway? From wherever they are, without an internet connection? Couldn't they be watching (excuse me, viewing) me typing this even before I submit it?

[Boo]

athon,

If you are going to go with Sci-fi concept already in place then "use the force". All things are contained within the force and force is in all things. You just need to be sensitive enough to 'see' it.

Disclaimer: This in no way describes an actual belief system I hold and is merely a point for discussion.



Boo

[bratok]

The idea behind RV is that we do have something more then just a phisical body, let it be a "sole" or some "thin bodies" or "astral bodies". Anyway, it is believed to be "something" immortal, that is connected to our phisical body and is controling it.

When the phisical body dies, this "something", the real personality, separates from it and floats into the astral ( remamber the NEDs and their tunels ) and later, possibly, once again incornated in a yet-to-be-born body, so to say. That explains the past-life and incornation theory.

This "something" also remambers everything about all out past lives, only this information is locked. While it can be unlocked in certain meditations. For example, during such meditation, one person remambered that he served on a ship that went down in WWI. He also remambered his name and the ships name. After checking the records, it appeared that there really was this ship and that someone under this name served on it... How else could he know it?

Back to RV and OBE. It is believed that this "something" can also come out of a sleeping body, while still being attached to it, with something that looks like a silver cord, and wounder around. Many people sometimes remamber seeing their sleeping body like from above. Anyway, when one comes out of a body, he can fly where ever he wants, look at something and tell about it, when he returns.

See http://www.astralforum.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=6


Thanx

[davidsmith73]

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
Davidsmith73 - can you expand on what you mean by :

At the moment we don't see experiences as "things" with an existence in the same sense as physical "things" such as an electron.

I don't think I can in such as way as to give you a complete and coherent viewpoint. It just seems that the intuitive way to deal with all forms of psi phenomena (telepathy, RV, precognition, PK) is to describe them in terms of a direct interactions between conscious states.

Perhaps a starting point would be to take the analogous concept of a field and apply it to consciousness. Someones conscious state at any point in time would consist of a holistic field of experiences which could interact with other conscious fields in such a way as to effect their form, ie their experiential content. If we take ganzfeld telepathy, the senders conscious field would consist of experincing the video clip and the receivers conscious field would consist of, well not much, except their internal imagery. If the senders conscious field actually interacts in a real way with the receivers conscious field then this interaction could in some way create an experiential "bond" or "resonance" in the same sense as a physical interaction which transfers information between the two fields.

Ok a bit crazy I admit but we've got to start somewhere.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Okay, David, but two issues. First, how do the conscious fields find one another in order to interact? Second, how does the information encoded in the sender's field get decoded by the receiver?

Where are these fields, by the way?

~~ Paul

[davidsmith73]

Where are these fields, by the way?

~~ Paul [/b][/quote]

Thats the only question I can attempt to answer I'm afraid. I do not think they are anywhere in space or time. So the question of "where" does not really apply.

[SteveGrenard]

Paul, the following may help:

"Our "local realistic" view of the world assumes that phenomena are separated by time and space and that no influence can travel faster than the speed of light. Quantum nonlocality proves that these assumptions are incorrect, and that there is a principle of holistic interconnectedness operating at the quantum level which contradicts the localistic assumptions of classical, Newtonian physics." for more, see: http://www.cosmopolis.com/topics/qua...nlocality.html


"This prohibition against superluminal communication, as stated above, is a part of standard quantum mechanics. However, this prohibition is broken if quantum mechanics is allowed to be slightly "non-linear", a technical term meaning that when quantum waves are superimposed they may generate a small cross-term not present in the standard formalism. Steven Weinberg, Nobel laureate for his theoretical work in unifying the electromagnetic and weak interactions, investigated a theory which introduces small non-linear corrections to standard quantum mechanics [13]. The onset of non-linear behavior is seen in other areas of physics, e.g., laser light in certain media, and, he suggested, might also be present but unnoticed in quantum mechanics. Weinberg's non-linear QM subtly alters certain properties of the standard theory, producing new physical effects that can be detected through precise measurements.

Two years after Weinberg's non-linear QM theory was published, Joseph Polchinski published a paper demonstrating that Weinberg's non-linear corrections upset the balance in quantum mechanics that prevents superluminal communication using EPR experiments [14]. Through the new non-linear effects, separated measurements on the same quantum system begin to "talk" to each other and faster-than-light and/or backward-in-time signaling becomes possible. Polchinski describes such an arrangement as an "EPR telephone" For more see: http://www.npl.washington.edu/npl/int_rep/qm_nl.html

[TheERK]

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Forget some unknown type of energy. Never gonna work. I'd go with some kind of Matrix idea. The Matrix knows all. The viewer has some way to tap into the Matrix. What I can never figure out is how the viewer addresses particular information in the Matrix, how he homes in on the thing he wants to view or the person whose mind he wants to read.

~~ Paul

Not that I have anything but disdain for Psi-Tech, or anything, but you've asked this exact same question before, and I answered it. Check out the old "Psi-Tech - No apology" thread.

[athon]

Quote:

Originally posted by bratok
The idea behind RV is that we do have something more then just a phisical body, let it be a "sole" or some "thin bodies" or "astral bodies". Anyway, it is believed to be "something" immortal, that is connected to our phisical body and is controling it.

When the phisical body dies, this "something", the real personality, separates from it and floats into the astral ( remamber the NEDs and their tunels ) and later, possibly, once again incornated in a yet-to-be-born body, so to say. That explains the past-life and incornation theory.

OK, fine. This is the usual explanation - but how does it fit into our view of physics? What exactly is a spiritual body?

And if it is a 'new energy', it must somehow interact with our present ideas and theories. How?

This is where believers fall down - there is no additional attempt to marry what we know with speculation.


And Steve, thanks for the insight into using Weinberg principles in RV. There's possibilities (spec' fic' stories) in the idea. Now, next step, are there any theories as to how we as biochemical machines can screen, read and interpret any 'quantum' information? I think KS Robinson touched on the idea in his Mars trilogy.

Athon


Athon

[Ladewig]

Quote:

It's like the people that calculates the destructive power of a imperial destroyer from Star Wars. Or to try to figure out how hyperspace works from watching Babylon 5 and the jump gates. Emm hello it's Sci-Fi, it doesn't work as we know it.

I agree. Those people are so silly. Any rational person know that if you are going to try to explain the laws of physics from science-fiction you have to start with a movie or TV program where things don't go BOOM in outer space.

[bratok]

Quote:

Originally posted by athon
OK, fine. This is the usual explanation - but how does it fit into our view of physics? What exactly is a spiritual body?

Not so long ago someone said that the earth is round and it did not fit into the believes of that time, that said that the earth is flat... So maybe our physics also aren't perfect?

Anyway, a few authors offer this theorie ( that I can't say I fully understand or agree with ) - everything is vibrations. For example, if we look at green grass, it isn't really green, it induces vibrations that our eyes pick up as green color. Vibrations in another frequency are sound waves, then radio waves, then radioactive waves and so on... They, authors, claim that our physical body also lives at a certain range of vibrations, while our "spiritual body" lives at a much heigher range, that cannot be picked up by our physical body, not by any instruments yet created.


Thanx

[Dragon]

Not so long ago someone said that the earth is round and it did not fit into the believes of that time, that said that the earth is flat... So maybe our physics also aren't perfect?

Of course physics is not perfect - all scientific knowledge is provisional. However, the Ancient Greeks knew that the Earth was round - from the variation in the apparent position of the Pole Star as you moved South, from the fact that you see a ships sails over the horizon before you see its hull etc.

Anyway, a few authors offer this theorie ( that I can't say I fully understand or agree with ) - everything is vibrations. For example, if we look at green grass, it isn't really green, it induces vibrations that our eyes pick up as green color. Vibrations in another frequency are sound waves, then radio waves, then radioactive waves and so on...

Hopelessly confused between electromagnetic "vibrations" and sound waves - entirely different things (some mathematics applies to both, of course). What is the frequency of these "higher vibrations"? What form do they take?

They, authors, claim that our physical body also lives at a certain range of vibrations, while our "spiritual body" lives at a much heigher range, that cannot be picked up by our physical body, not by any instruments yet created.

Yet some people claim to have access to this "higher range". How? By what mechanism?
Lastly, who are these authors you refer to? Any links?

[bratok]

Lastly, who are these authors you refer to? Any links?
The authors I was reffering to are A. Svyash, Robert Monroe ( if I'm not misstaken ) and a few older books about Yoga.

Yet some people claim to have access to this "higher range". How? By what mechanism?
By training. For example, a regulat human ear can't hear above and belowe certain limits of vibrations... While by training this limits can be expended and one would be able to hear sounds that "don't exist" for others. Same is with seeing Auras.

Also by special trainings and meditations one can learn how to leave his physical body and, white traveling in a "spiritual body" that is liveing at a heigher range of vibrations, he also might be able to see what is hidden from a regular eye.

You can take a look at http://www.astralforum.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=6


Thanx

[Mercutio]

Quote:

Originally posted by bratok
[Yet some people claim to have access to this "higher range". How? By what mechanism?
By training. For example, a regulat human ear can't hear above and belowe certain limits of vibrations... While by training this limits can be expended and one would be able to hear sounds that "don't exist" for others. Same is with seeing Auras.

Hmm...you'd think, then, that Sensation & Perception psychologists and psychophysicists, who dedicate their lives to studying the properties of the sensory systems, would have been able to examine these claims. If you can train to do this, they can see it. Guess what? No such thing.

Don't rely on an "old yoga book" for information about human perceptual systems when there is an entire science devoted to the area. Get to a library, or google "sensation & perception", find out what the actual processes are. Then you might think twice before buying into some woo-woo gibberish.

[Ladewig]

Quote:

By training. For example, a regular human ear can't hear above and below certain limits of vibrations... While by training this limits can be expended and one would be able to hear sounds that "don't exist" for others. Same is with seeing Auras.

People who cannot hear above and below a certain range know that sounds exist beyond this range because it is very easy to construct mechanical devices to sense these ultra high or ultra low sounds. It is eas to show that there is a continual spectrum of sound ranging from very low frequencies to very high frequencies. Similarly, we know that just beyond human sight there is EM radiation that can be classified as infra-red and ultra-violet. We can construct devices to detect EM radiation from Gamma rays down to radio waves (see chart). Nowhere on this spectrum do aura waves appear.

[Darat]

Quote:

Originally posted by bratok
...snip...

Also by special trainings and meditations one can learn how to leave his physical body and, white traveling in a "spiritual body" that is liveing at a heigher range of vibrations, he also might be able to see what is hidden from a regular eye.

...snip....

Where can I access this special training? I'm quite willing to dedicate a lot of my time to this, obviously I want to see the complete course curriculum, how progress is measured and so on.

[Jeff Corey]

Quote:

Originally posted by bratok
[b]By training. For example, a regulat human ear can't hear above and belowe certain limits of vibrations... While by training this limits can be expended and one would be able to hear sounds that "don't exist" for others. Same is with seeing Auras.


Also by special trainings and meditations one can learn how to leave his physical body and, white traveling in a "spiritual body" that is liveing at a heigher range of vibrations, he also might be able to see what is hidden from a regular eye.

Not true. Trainings (sic) can't accomplish any of these things.Training in sensory psychology could teach you that.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

TheERK said:

Quote:

Not that I have anything but disdain for Psi-Tech, or anything, but you've asked this exact same question before, and I answered it. Check out the old "Psi-Tech - No apology" thread.

Sorry, just reviewed the entire thread, but didn't find an answering to the addressing problem.

~~ Paul

[Dragon]

Quote:

Originally posted by bratok
Lastly, who are these authors you refer to? Any links?
The authors I was reffering to are A. Svyash, Robert Monroe ( if I'm not misstaken ) and a few older books about Yoga.

Yet some people claim to have access to this "higher range". How? By what mechanism?
By training. For example, a regulat human ear can't hear above and belowe certain limits of vibrations... While by training this limits can be expended and one would be able to hear sounds that "don't exist" for others. Same is with seeing Auras.

Also by special trainings and meditations one can learn how to leave his physical body and, white traveling in a "spiritual body" that is liveing at a heigher range of vibrations, he also might be able to see what is hidden from a regular eye.

You can take a look at http://www.astralforum.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=6


Thanx

I'm sorry, bratok - this is so much nonsense.
If it were possible to train the human ear in this way we'd all know about it by now. Also, as ladewing has said, we have instruments that can do this for us (and much else) - why can't they give us contact with the spirit world?

[SteveGrenard]

Quote:

Dragon asks: ............why can't they give us contact with the spirit world?

There is a considerable body of literature, how much of it is valid I do not know, which concerns ITC or Instrumental Transcommunication which is one possible answer to your question....so yes, there are allegedly instruments which provide "contact." This technology is also called TDC or Transdimensional Communication, EVP or electronic voice phenomena and, for many years in France, was simply
referred to as Raudive voices.

There is a comprhensive book which is being translated from German and placed online free to download and read.

THE BRIDGE BETWEEN EARTH AND BEYOND,

by Hildegard Schaefer


Until now, the book has been widely read in
Europe only and has not been available in English.

It is now being carefully translated into English,
and the first 15 chapters can be seen
on the following website.

The rest of the book will be added to the
site as the translations are completed.

Simply go to

www.worlditc.org

click on BOOKS in the left-hand frame,

then click on the book title at the end of the list.

[Dragon]

Steve, sometimes I think you are just pulling our collective plonker.
I'm afraid I don't have the time or the patience to wade through interminable stories about contact with the spirit world. Help me out - is there anything that might even approximate to
evidence?

[SteveGrenard]

LOL Dragon. You asked about why there has been no instrumental contact with the spirit world. I replied with evidence that a lot of researchers allege there has been through the techniques or disciplines or whatever mentioned. In fact the word instrument appears in the very definition of their claim: instrumental transcommunication. Honestly, I didnt make this up.
Its out there with a history going back more than 50 years.

I am not here to provide you with evidence and frankly I wouldnt know what evidence you want or how to provide it on this forum so unless you read up on the subject and listen to the tapes of alleged instrumentally obtained spirit voices, I do not know what else to suggest. I have no personal evidence that these voices and claims are genuine but you are best to jduge for yourself and not leave it up to me.

I frankly do not go to the time and trouble of posting responses so I can be asked to do the follow-up work as well. Sorry, can't help you.

[Dragon]

Steve,

bratok said earlier

Quote:

They, authors, claim that our physical body also lives at a certain range of vibrations, while our "spiritual body" lives at a much heigher range, that cannot be picked up by our physical body, not by any instruments yet created.

and

Quote:

For example, a regulat human ear can't hear above and belowe certain limits of vibrations... While by training this limits can be expended and one would be able to hear sounds that "don't exist" for others. Same is with seeing Auras.

- hence my question about instruments.

You jumped in and posted a rather wordy link, about which I notice you hedged your comments - fair enough - but is there anything in there you find convincing?

[Darat]

I'm cross posting something I've just posted into the Calling All Remote Viewers thread because I am so angry.


........................................


I was about to add a rather flippant comment into this thread about still no sign of the girl and asking the RVers who post here to again find her.

When searching to see if anymore news had been posted I came across this site:

http://crime.about.com/library/blfil...en.htm#everett

and then this one

http://missingkids.com/missingkids/s...eCountry=en_US

I can’t say how angry I am at the moment, knowing there are these liars these inhumane fools who strut around here claiming the ability to RV, claiming it has been proven, claiming it can find people.

LOOK AT THESE SITES, LOOK AT THESE KIDS AND STOP LYING!

[T'ai Chi]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercutio
Can't they see this board anyway? From wherever they are, without an internet connection? Couldn't they be watching (excuse me, viewing) me typing this even before I submit it?

Who knows.

You must be one of those people who says "If God is all powerful, why doesn't he do ____", or "If God is all knowing, why doesn't he do _____", and then you fill in the blanks with what you think you would do if you were a God.

That is rather a strawgod argument.

[plindboe]

Quote:

Originally posted by bratok
This "something" also remambers everything about all out past lives, only this information is locked. While it can be unlocked in certain meditations. For example, during such meditation, one person remambered that he served on a ship that went down in WWI. He also remambered his name and the ships name. After checking the records, it appeared that there really was this ship and that someone under this name served on it... How else could he know it?

He could easily have picked up such information from a history book prior to the meditation. I find it funny that no one thought of that simple possibility, and instead jumped to the extraordinary explanation you describe.

Peter

[SteveGrenard]

Dragon asks....You jumped in and posted a rather wordy link, about which I notice you hedged your comments - fair enough - but is there anything in there you find convincing?

No, I am rarely if ever convinced and no, I am not about this but that does not mean it does not exist and others can't review it for themselves. I am sorry it was wordy. I guess 15 chapters and more coming of a book on the subject is wordy. Most people like free online books if they have the HD space. I have not read, just scanned, the book yet either and probably wont for a while but have it saved.