The dishonest, manipulitive myth of the ineffective centrist.

jj · 26th August 2003, 03:29 PM

Just today, I've had both the right and the left tell me that centrists are people who accept the status quo, not people who conclude that moderation in all thing, including moderation, is the way to go.

This myth is, I contend, deliberately designed to destructively polarize and destroy concensus so that the lunatic fringe can have its day.

I call on all centrists to rise up and smite all extremes. EXTREMELY.

Moderate does not mean asleep. Neither does centrist.

Both should, and do, find the excesses of the "left" and "right", whatever they may be at the minute, appalling. Some do, I have to admit, assume that 'it will all swing around'. History does not suggest that, it shows that extremism of some sort has been the death of nearly every, if not every society in history. Sometimes (communism, nazis) the extremism is built into the system. Sometimes (fall of Moorish civilizations for instance, or the dark ages) it's due to extremist religion. Sometimes (Uganda) it's due to extremist bullies.

Extremistism has a very bad record for destroying society after society, and it must be resisted, in all forms, left, right, up, down and sideways alike.

This does not imply stasis. Moderation is in all things, including moderation.

So get with it, centrists, speak up.

Upchurch · 26th August 2003, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jj
Moderate does not mean asleep. Neither does centrist.

I agree very much with this statement, but I'm curious how you defining the difference between "moderate" and "centrist".

Dancing David · 26th August 2003, 03:34 PM

Yeak! Rararrrrrr.

Sorry JJ, I am still trying how to figure out the MLK quote. There is a difference between being moderate and tolerating evil. I feel that the MLK quote denies the power of an individual to do good without being outspkoen.

jj · 26th August 2003, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Upchurch
I agree very much with this statement, but I'm curious how you defining the difference between "moderate" and "centrist".

Moderation is the way one creates change.

Centrism relates to the policies one asserts.

It is possible to be an outspoken, moderate centrist. It is unusual. We need more.

jj · 26th August 2003, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
Yeak! Rararrrrrr.

Sorry JJ, I am still trying how to figure out the MLK quote. There is a difference between being moderate and tolerating evil. I feel that the MLK quote denies the power of an individual to do good without being outspkoen.

If the quote is in context, it uses a faulty premise, specifically that a moderate can not be outspoken.

A moderate generally won't tolerate what they regard as evil any more than a leftist or rightist would tolerate what they regard as evil. A moderate is just as free to reject evil.

Now, for years we've been taught that "moderates don't care" and a whole other load of organic fertilizer, and I think some people believe it. That's why we have the "silent, nonvoting majority", but by (*&( they need to start caring that we remain moderate and centrist and get off their duffs.

corplinx · 26th August 2003, 03:51 PM

What I love is how jj has started two threads about "centrism" or being moderate, yet he is not one. Is this roleplaying?

jj · 26th August 2003, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
What I love is how jj has started two threads about "centrism" or being moderate, yet he is not one. Is this roleplaying?

Prove your statement or retract it.

Since I am a moderate centrist, albiet one with a big mouth, you'll have some trouble with that.

It's only your own agenda that prevents you from coping with the reality of the situation.

corplinx · 26th August 2003, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jj

Prove your statement or retract it.

Since I am a moderate centrist, albiet one with a big mouth, you'll have some trouble with that.

It's only your own agenda that prevents you from coping with the reality of the situation.

If being a moderate means being a big anti-bush socialist, then I guess I misunderstood that whole centrism thing. My bad slick. Time to put you back on ignore where you belong.

arcticpenguin · 26th August 2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx

If being a moderate means being a big anti-bush socialist, then I guess I misunderstood that whole centrism thing. My bad slick. Time to put you back on ignore where you belong.

If you think Bush is anywhere near the center, then you certainly do have some misunderstandings.

jj · 26th August 2003, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx

If being a moderate means being a big anti-bush socialist, then I guess I misunderstood that whole centrism thing. My bad slick. Time to put you back on ignore where you belong.

I'm a "socialist"??? You, sir, are delusional. You are fantastically, ridiculously, ravingly delusional.

Either you don't know what the word means, or you haven't read what I've written.

You're a total, raging crackpot and a disgrace to the corps.

corplinx · 27th August 2003, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

If you think Bush is anywhere near the center, then you certainly do have some misunderstandings.

You won't find that claim anywhere in what I said strangely enough. However, a centrist usually defers from outright opposition and tries to form compromise positions.

Upchurch · 27th August 2003, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx

However, a centrist usually defers from outright opposition and tries to form compromise positions.

I'm still fuzzy on the moderate/centralist distinction, but being a moderate does not mean that person doesn't (or shouldn't) actively disagree with certain positions, for example those of GWB. Outright opposition to the right no more necessarily means that one is on the left than outright opposition to the left necessarily means that one is on the right. You need to realize that the political spectrum has more than two values.

Further, I think that's jj's point that moderates should break with steriotype and actively stand up to the extremists on both the left and the right.

arcticpenguin · 27th August 2003, 09:42 AM

Quote:

If being a moderate means being a big anti-bush socialist, then I guess I misunderstood that whole centrism thing.

Quote:

If you think Bush is anywhere near the center, then you certainly do have some misunderstandings.

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx

You won't find that claim anywhere in what I said strangely enough. However, a centrist usually defers from outright opposition and tries to form compromise positions.

I fail to understand the distinction you seem to be making.

jj · 27th August 2003, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Upchurch
Further, I think that's jj's point that moderates should break with steriotype and actively stand up to the extremists on both the left and the right.

Yep, yep, yep.

Just because I don't like 'W' does not mean I'm a socialist.

jj · 27th August 2003, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx

You won't find that claim anywhere in what I said strangely enough. However, a centrist usually defers from outright opposition and tries to form compromise positions.

Thank you for repeating the offensive stereotype that was created in order to disenfranchise the moderate and centrist.

A very simple examination shows that should a centrist disagree with an extremist, YOUR PREJUDICIAL STEREOTYPE would none the less require him or her to GO ALONG WITH THE EXTREMIST.

Such a position is ridiculous, destructive, and the myth that has been propagated here about moderates and centrists is deliberately designed to take the power from the center.

It's time that we all reject that.

c0rbin · 27th August 2003, 11:03 AM

Corplinx, you have fallen into the trap of labelling.

Being anti-bush does not make one a communist nor an enemy of the US.

There is always more than two options, opinions, view-points.

One is free to find the third option.

Keneke · 27th August 2003, 11:04 AM

All hail militant centrism!

T'ai Chi · 27th August 2003, 11:14 AM

Being in the center is great. It is the Taoist principle of avoiding the extremes. Being a center is also one of the best positions in basketball. I want to be like Wilt Chamberlin, ya know what I mean?? A while ago I had a Centris. That was a damn good computer for its time, and is only 1 letter away from centrist. And how could anybody be anti-bush, ya know what I mean??

I think any extreme is silly. "Dull the edges!"

jj · 27th August 2003, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I think any extreme is silly. "Dull the edges!"

As they say, T'ai, maybe you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Dancing David · 27th August 2003, 11:46 AM

Corplinx, is trolling, getting ready for the elections. Down boy, have a cigar , nice doggie.

There is a great misunderstanding of the way consensous government works in the USA, people ofetn but the rhetoric about the ineffectual natute of consensual politics. So in the uSA people ofetn forget that centrists often weild a greater deal of power than extremeists.

Take for example Truman, Eisenhower and Clinton, and maybe FDR for very good examples, these were presidents who weilded alot of power by occasionaly playing the ends off the middle. The weilded tremendous power behind the scenes by making deals and keeping them. This despite the fact that they were ofetn viewed as being is opposition to the powqers that be.

There is great power in centrist politics, which extremists don't understand.

PS> JJ I think it would be great if there were more socialists like you!

jj · 27th August 2003, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David

There is great power in centrist politics, which extremists don't understand.

PS> JJ I think it would be great if there were more socialists like you!

Yeah, right. Sorry, I find socialism completely disfunctional, if I had to choose a place, I'd say I'm mostly a free marketer but with some exceptions for commons issues. (I find it hard to joke about such things given that we have the equal of Joe McCarthy as attourney general right now.)

My arguments are mostly mathematical, with premises based on the demonstrated social and economic outcomes demonstrated through history.

RandFan · 27th August 2003, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jj
(I find it hard to joke about such things given that we have the equal of Joe McCarthy as attourney general right now.)

My arguments are mostly mathematical, with premises based on the demonstrated social and economic outcomes demonstrated through history.

Well, then you won't have any trouble demonstrably proving that John Ashcroft is the equal of Joe McCarthy. I look forward to the demonstration. Thanks in advance.

I would guess that there are "centerists" who lean to the left and the right. If you are indeed a centerist then I would say that you certainly lean to the left.

You have a right to call yourself a centrist jj but I'm curious, why do you think that you are a centerist?

RandFan · 27th August 2003, 01:55 PM

For the record I see myself as both a moderate and a centrist. I might be wrong though and just confusing libertarianism with centrism. I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I dislike the extremes of both parties.

I would be happy to hear anyones thought on the subject.

c0rbin · 27th August 2003, 02:26 PM

A moderate (or centerist) might be one who doesn't necessarily tow the party line down the list of issues, but is able to hold rightward leanings for one issue and leftist leanings for the next.

Just an opinion.

jj · 27th August 2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RandFan
Well, then you won't have any trouble demonstrably proving that John Ashcroft is the equal of Joe McCarthy. I look forward to the demonstration. Thanks in advance.

That is a purely dishonest request on your part, based wholly on taking my comments out of context. Is there a reason that you guys who seem to be RandFans do this all the time? You and Shanek are two of the worst offenders on this site.

So, why did you do that? That was dishonest and unethical of you. Explain yourself.

I would guess that there are "centerists" who lean to the left and the right. If you are indeed a centerist then I would say that you certainly lean to the left.

I lean to the left? Really? Because I oppose the extremist right that we have today? Because I say that some of the basic commons require regulation in order to function safely and efficiently?

How do I lean to the left?

I am reminded of someone I went to college with, who accused anyone, any time, anywhere who asserted any kind of regulation was "socialist". He was a capital 'L' "Libertarian", wore a silver dollar sign as jewelry every day, and professed to want to solve the problem of human aging and sell it only to the rich.

Is that the game here?

I propose that commons require regulation (not necessarily communial or government ownership, note), and that other than that, I'm pretty much a free marketeer.

That is so far from ANY economic position the left espouses that you must be thinking of some other "left", eh?

Or do I lean to the left because I argue for individual liberties and against regulating behavior of consenting, competant adults? Is that my "leftist" leanings? Again, that's only a "left' leaning for some other left than we all know and love, since there's no "except for their own good" included here.

You have a right to call yourself a centrist jj but I'm curious, why do you think that you are a centerist?

Because I am. What are you?

EvilYeti · 27th August 2003, 03:37 PM

I used to straddle the fence, but my urologist said it was bad for my prostate!

But seriously folks, as my late uncle was fond of saying, "The enemy isn't liberalism, the enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy is ********." Truer words have never been spoken.

The good news is the public seems to like centrists like Clinton more than extremists like the Bush family, so hopefully we will see Dubya out on his behind come next election. The bad news is we will likely never see a centrist Republican candidate like John McCain (which I would vote for) as the party is absolutely rife with fundies and extremists. It's amazing how many Republicans critize our current adminstration for being too liberal!!!

jj · 27th August 2003, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EvilYeti
I used to straddle the fence, but my urologist said it was bad for my prostate!

Budda bump - Crash! Thank you, thank you, ladies and germs, and now showing at the Pocono Grand von Haupsfelt we have ...

It's amazing how many Republicans critize our current adminstration for being too liberal!!!

We had a hint when the Arizona 'pubs threw Barry Goldwater out of the party, I think, eh?

EvilYeti · 27th August 2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jj

We had a hint when the Arizona 'pubs threw Barry Goldwater out of the party, I think, eh?

Before my time, but if its anything like what happened to McCain, absolutely disgusting.

jj · 27th August 2003, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EvilYeti
Before my time, but if its anything like what happened to McCain, absolutely disgusting.

And like what they're doing to Arnie S now. They'll cut their own throats before they let a social liberal, economic conservative win in California.

Pathetic. There is a litmus test for republigun candidates at the present. You must be anti-abortion, anti-human-rights, anti-civil-rights, anti-womens-rights, pro-military (got one right, I guess), and unconditionally support the RNC and 'W'.

Arnie does not, unless he's been greviously misrepresented, pass about 2/3 of those, and just watch, they'll arrange for a good smearing.

Maybe as a result Flynt will win. That would be beyond the pale, eh?

(My own candidate would be Don Novello, aka "Father Guido Sarducci" or "Lazlo J. Toth"...)

EvilYeti · 27th August 2003, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jj

Arnie does not, unless he's been greviously misrepresented, pass about 2/3 of those, and just watch, they'll arrange for a good smearing.

Its really a riot, "The Smoking Gun" just published an interview with a 29 year old Arnold talking about doing drugs and participating in sex orgies. Not to mention the relationship between body builders and their penis. I wonder what the Repubbie response to that is going to be.

An Arnold victory in California would likely redefine the phrase "to hoist with his own petard" with regards to the Republican party. Who knows, maybe a AS victory will pave the way for more liberal Republicans and lead to the destructions of the current right-wing power structure. I might live to see president McCain after all!

Myself, I'm voting for Gary Coleman. If I can hear "Whachoo be talkin' bout, Mr. Secretary of Commerce?" just once on CSPAN, I will die I a happy man!

corplinx · 27th August 2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
Corplinx, is trolling, getting ready for the elections. Down boy, have a cigar , nice doggie.

I'm not trolling. I have never seen a post by JJ that couldnt have been posted by Malachi and not been out of flavor.

Can anyone find one thread where JJ ever acted like a centrist? (whatever the hell that means).

jj · 27th August 2003, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx

I'm not trolling. I have never seen a post by JJ that couldnt have been posted by Malachi and not been out of flavor.

Can anyone find one thread where JJ ever acted like a centrist? (whatever the hell that means).

Stop lying.

You've seen the posts where I've whacked Malachi upside the head, they've been in the same threads I've been whacking your sorry behind.

So stop lying.

RandFan · 27th August 2003, 09:54 PM

jj,

I think you took my post too much as an attack. We don't need to end up enemies. I have a feeling we are closer in ideology than most. Please accept my apology if you have been offended.

Quote:

RandFan
Well, then you won't have any trouble demonstrably proving that John Ashcroft is the equal of Joe McCarthy. I look forward to the demonstration. Thanks in advance.

jj
That is a purely dishonest request on your part, based wholly on taking my comments out of context.

If I truly did take your statement out of context then I apologize. I am honestly confused though how I did that.

Quote:

I find it hard to joke about such things given that we have the equal of Joe McCarthy as attorney general right now.

Would you please explain how I took the above out of context? Were you just engaging in hyperbole? It looked like a claim to me.

Quote:

So, why did you do that? That was dishonest and unethical of you. Explain yourself.

Well, I have offered an apology but I really did not intentionally try to do anything dishonest or unethical. I think it incumbent on you to explain how I was both unethical and dishonest. I of course welcome any comments from Tricky, Sub, Kcin or others. If I am wrong shown to be wrong I will admit it. I honestly don't see it right now though.

Quote:

I lean to the left? Really? Because I oppose the extremist right that we have today? Because I say that some of the basic commons require regulation in order to function safely and efficiently?

No, it's because the only criticism I can remember you making is towards the left. In addition your criticism of the right is seems to me to be extreme. The centrists that I have known or thought were centrists never made voiced such extreme views of a republican president.

In any event let me moderate my post to say, you "seem" to me to lean to the left. I apologize for making the statement without a qualifier. I hope that I am entitled to an opinion.

Quote:

Is that the game here?

I am making an honest observation. I am sorry if I did it poorly and offended you. I can honestly say that I would never describe you as a centrist based on what I have heard and seen. Of course I could have missed your "moderate" posts. In which case my opinion is wrong isn't it. Since I have only seen you criticize the right, and criticized it with what seems to me to be little regard for any information except that which comes from the left then it seems unlikely to me that you would be a centrist. There are a number of Democrats who have come to the defense of Bush to some degree including Tricky on this forum when they thought the attacks were wrong or unfair. It does not seem to me that you have any interest in any such thing. I would think a centrist to be more likely to see both sides of the coin. You seem to only see one side.

Quote:

Or do I lean to the left because I argue for individual liberties and against regulating behavior of consenting, competent adults? Is that my "leftist" leanings?

Well since I have argued at length that the idiotic war on drugs should end immediately, since I am for a woman's right to choose, since I am firmly for the legalization of prostitution it would hardly seem so.

Quote:

Because I am. What are you?

I don't know. I honestly thought I was one until I met you. Now I wonder. I don't hate Bush. I'm not angry at the current administration. I see the arguments of both the Democrats and the Republicans. I see the importance of security especially after 911. I can see how the administration is acting in a sincere attempt to solve many of the problems that caused 911. Steve Brill a Democrat agrees and documented that fact. Why? Why would a respected journalist and editor do such a thing if Bush is as you portray him. Is it because Brill is objectively looking at the facts? I am honestly concerned about Bush's judicial appointments and the patriot act. I don't however think that these things are part of some conspiracy on the part of evil republicans. I'm not saying you do think that but your remarks certainly point somewhere in that direction.

jj, the reason I'm not inclined to think that you are a centrist is that centrists in my mind are typically more objective basing their conclusions on reason and capable of seeing both sides of an argument. I belive that centrists are less likely to see politics in an emotional manner but are even handed in their approach to politics. Now to tell the truth I am often passionate and lash out. But when questioned on that passion I am willing to reign it in and look at things objectively.

This is just my opinion. I cannot demonstrably prove that you are not a centrist. Hell, I'm not even sure what one is anymore. If my ideas about centrists are wrong then I would like a new word for what I do believe. If you say you are one then I will accept that and move on. I won't bring it up again.

RandFan

RandFan · 27th August 2003, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EvilYeti
The good news is the public seems to like centrists like Clinton more than extremists like the Bush family,

Odd since many if not most conservatives think Bush is anything but conservative and are disappointed with many of his policies.

And I would never accuse Clinton of being a centrist and I am quite confident that none of his closest allies including Stephanopolus would see him as that. Clinton was not as far to the left as many accused him but he certainly did not start his presidency on a centrist route. His health care plans were about as far from the right as one could get. His move to the left after the 1994 take over of congress would certainly indicate that his right leaning ideas were politically motivated.

Quote:

The bad news is we will likely never see a centrist Republican candidate like John McCain

I would also.

Quote:

(which I would vote for) as the party is absolutely rife with fundies and extremists.

Don't forget that it was the left-wing extremists (voting green) that cost Gore the election.

Quote:

It's amazing how many Republicans critisize our current administration for being too liberal!!!

Thank you for proving my point.

And wasn't amazing how many Liberals criticized Gore for being to Conservative!!!! ("Not a dimes bit of difference") How many times did we hear that one?

Kodiak · 28th August 2003, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jj
Just today, I've had both the right and the left tell me that centrists are people who accept the status quo, not people who conclude that moderation in all thing, including moderation, is the way to go.

This myth is, I contend, deliberately designed to destructively polarize and destroy concensus so that the lunatic fringe can have its day.

I call on all centrists to rise up and smite all extremes. EXTREMELY.

Moderate does not mean asleep. Neither does centrist.

Both should, and do, find the excesses of the "left" and "right", whatever they may be at the minute, appalling. Some do, I have to admit, assume that 'it will all swing around'. History does not suggest that, it shows that extremism of some sort has been the death of nearly every, if not every society in history. Sometimes (communism, nazis) the extremism is built into the system. Sometimes (fall of Moorish civilizations for instance, or the dark ages) it's due to extremist religion. Sometimes (Uganda) it's due to extremist bullies.

Extremistism has a very bad record for destroying society after society, and it must be resisted, in all forms, left, right, up, down and sideways alike.

This does not imply stasis. Moderation is in all things, including moderation.

So get with it, centrists, speak up.

False dilemma.

Sorry, but one can loathe fence-sitting, finger-in-the-wind, holier-than-thou moderates and still not be an extremist. It isn't as simple as either/or.

Dancing David · 28th August 2003, 05:57 AM

Perhaps the issue is how you define the term centrist or moderate.

Unbeknowst to many in the Republican party it has taken a hard right turn, I say this without meaning to be trolling. Most telling to me was who stood next to Ahnold when he made his announcement, George Schultz and Jim Edgar. George did not seem a centrist at the time but he was often a moderate in the Regan cabinet, Jim Edgar is definitly a centris who through enough bones to us left leaners to get elected over right wing democrats like Neil Hartigan.

I feel that part of the issue is the extreme political rhetoric which is spewed about.

Clinton was a centrist, he partook of many of the 'right' values, he cut deals down the middle.

JJ, I percieve you as an old fashioned GOP member who has been stranded by this hard turn to the right.

Randfan, the reason John Ashcroft looks so scary to some of us is that he is overturning civil liberties whole sale and acting very odd.

c0rbin · 28th August 2003, 07:28 AM

Quote:

I feel that part of the issue is the extreme political rhetoric which is spewed about.

That is the tack of this current administration..."You are either with us or against us."

This forces the dichotomy and stifles dialogue.

RandFan · 28th August 2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
I feel that part of the issue is the extreme political rhetoric which is spewed about.

Always has been always will be.

Quote:

Clinton was a centrist, he partook of many of the 'right' values, he cut deals down the middle.

I disagree. Clinton is a great politician who is able to determine the direction of political winds. I'm sure some of his "values" are centrist but I don't see him as one. I don't see Bush as a centrist either but he his as moderate (disliked by those on the far right) as Clinton was moderate (disliked by those on the far left).

Quote:

JJ, I percieve you as an old fashioned GOP member who has been stranded by this hard turn to the right.

Rhetoric. Sounds good on paper but that just makes it specious.

Quote:

Randfan, the reason John Ashcroft looks so scary to some of us is that he is overturning civil liberties whole sale and acting very odd.

*"Wholesale?" Stalin and Mao overturned civil liberties wholesale? Pol Pot overturned civil liberties wholesale. I think that such a claim is demonstrably false. The last time I questioned the same type of claim by jj he got upset with me. I guess I'm not supposed to question these types of claims but I'm going to anyway.

Do you have evidence that John Ashcroft is overturning civil liberties extensively and indiscriminately? Or is Ashcroft acting in a way that is to be expected following an event like 911. This of course does not excuse such behavior but it does explain it.

*whole·sale
advExtensively; indiscriminately.

corplinx · 28th August 2003, 07:51 AM

I define a centrist or moderate as someone who has core beliefs but in then end thinks more practical than ideological.

hammegk · 28th August 2003, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jj

That is a purely dishonest request on your part, based wholly on taking my comments out of context.

I read your comments in context, and I too would like to know why you equate McCarthy with Ashcroft.

Also, you are a lefty-lib extremist to a true moderate like myself. That's because you equate this small bunch of vocal left leaning extremists with reality.

26th August 2003, 03:29 PM	#1
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	The dishonest, manipulitive myth of the ineffective centrist. Just today, I've had both the right and the left tell me that centrists are people who accept the status quo, not people who conclude that moderation in all thing, including moderation, is the way to go. This myth is, I contend, deliberately designed to destructively polarize and destroy concensus so that the lunatic fringe can have its day. I call on all centrists to rise up and smite all extremes. EXTREMELY. Moderate does not mean asleep. Neither does centrist. Both should, and do, find the excesses of the "left" and "right", whatever they may be at the minute, appalling. Some do, I have to admit, assume that 'it will all swing around'. History does not suggest that, it shows that extremism of some sort has been the death of nearly every, if not every society in history. Sometimes (communism, nazis) the extremism is built into the system. Sometimes (fall of Moorish civilizations for instance, or the dark ages) it's due to extremist religion. Sometimes (Uganda) it's due to extremist bullies. Extremistism has a very bad record for destroying society after society, and it must be resisted, in all forms, left, right, up, down and sideways alike. This does not imply stasis. Moderation is in all things, including moderation. So get with it, centrists, speak up.
	__________________ The Power to Quit

26th August 2003, 03:33 PM	#2
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,428	Re: The dishonest, manipulitive myth of the ineffective centrist. Quote: Originally posted by jj Moderate does not mean asleep. Neither does centrist. I agree very much with this statement, but I'm curious how you defining the difference between "moderate" and "centrist".

26th August 2003, 03:34 PM	#3
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,727	Yeak! Rararrrrrr. Sorry JJ, I am still trying how to figure out the MLK quote. There is a difference between being moderate and tolerating evil. I feel that the MLK quote denies the power of an individual to do good without being outspkoen.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

26th August 2003, 03:38 PM	#4
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Re: Re: The dishonest, manipulitive myth of the ineffective centrist. Quote: Originally posted by Upchurch I agree very much with this statement, but I'm curious how you defining the difference between "moderate" and "centrist". Moderation is the way one creates change. Centrism relates to the policies one asserts. It is possible to be an outspoken, moderate centrist. It is unusual. We need more.
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26th August 2003, 03:40 PM	#5
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by Dancing David Yeak! Rararrrrrr. Sorry JJ, I am still trying how to figure out the MLK quote. There is a difference between being moderate and tolerating evil. I feel that the MLK quote denies the power of an individual to do good without being outspkoen. If the quote is in context, it uses a faulty premise, specifically that a moderate can not be outspoken. A moderate generally won't tolerate what they regard as evil any more than a leftist or rightist would tolerate what they regard as evil. A moderate is just as free to reject evil. Now, for years we've been taught that "moderates don't care" and a whole other load of organic fertilizer, and I think some people believe it. That's why we have the "silent, nonvoting majority", but by (*&( they need to start caring that we remain moderate and centrist and get off their duffs.
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26th August 2003, 03:51 PM	#6
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	What I love is how jj has started two threads about "centrism" or being moderate, yet he is not one. Is this roleplaying?
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26th August 2003, 03:55 PM	#7
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx What I love is how jj has started two threads about "centrism" or being moderate, yet he is not one. Is this roleplaying? Prove your statement or retract it. Since I am a moderate centrist, albiet one with a big mouth, you'll have some trouble with that. It's only your own agenda that prevents you from coping with the reality of the situation.
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26th August 2003, 03:58 PM	#8
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Quote: Originally posted by jj Prove your statement or retract it. Since I am a moderate centrist, albiet one with a big mouth, you'll have some trouble with that. It's only your own agenda that prevents you from coping with the reality of the situation. If being a moderate means being a big anti-bush socialist, then I guess I misunderstood that whole centrism thing. My bad slick. Time to put you back on ignore where you belong.
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26th August 2003, 04:01 PM	#9
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx If being a moderate means being a big anti-bush socialist, then I guess I misunderstood that whole centrism thing. My bad slick. Time to put you back on ignore where you belong. If you think Bush is anywhere near the center, then you certainly do have some misunderstandings.
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26th August 2003, 04:04 PM	#10
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx If being a moderate means being a big anti-bush socialist, then I guess I misunderstood that whole centrism thing. My bad slick. Time to put you back on ignore where you belong. I'm a "socialist"??? You, sir, are delusional. You are fantastically, ridiculously, ravingly delusional. Either you don't know what the word means, or you haven't read what I've written. You're a total, raging crackpot and a disgrace to the corps.
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27th August 2003, 06:53 AM	#11
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Quote: Originally posted by arcticpenguin If you think Bush is anywhere near the center, then you certainly do have some misunderstandings. You won't find that claim anywhere in what I said strangely enough. However, a centrist usually defers from outright opposition and tries to form compromise positions.
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27th August 2003, 07:10 AM	#12
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,428	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx However, a centrist usually defers from outright opposition and tries to form compromise positions. I'm still fuzzy on the moderate/centralist distinction, but being a moderate does not mean that person doesn't (or shouldn't) actively disagree with certain positions, for example those of GWB. Outright opposition to the right no more necessarily means that one is on the left than outright opposition to the left necessarily means that one is on the right. You need to realize that the political spectrum has more than two values. Further, I think that's jj's point that moderates should break with steriotype and actively stand up to the extremists on both the left and the right.

27th August 2003, 09:42 AM	#13
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Quote: If being a moderate means being a big anti-bush socialist, then I guess I misunderstood that whole centrism thing. Quote: If you think Bush is anywhere near the center, then you certainly do have some misunderstandings. Quote: Originally posted by corplinx You won't find that claim anywhere in what I said strangely enough. However, a centrist usually defers from outright opposition and tries to form compromise positions. I fail to understand the distinction you seem to be making.
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27th August 2003, 10:51 AM	#14
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by Upchurch Further, I think that's jj's point that moderates should break with steriotype and actively stand up to the extremists on both the left and the right. Yep, yep, yep. Just because I don't like 'W' does not mean I'm a socialist.
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27th August 2003, 10:55 AM	#15
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx You won't find that claim anywhere in what I said strangely enough. However, a centrist usually defers from outright opposition and tries to form compromise positions. Thank you for repeating the offensive stereotype that was created in order to disenfranchise the moderate and centrist. A very simple examination shows that should a centrist disagree with an extremist, YOUR PREJUDICIAL STEREOTYPE would none the less require him or her to GO ALONG WITH THE EXTREMIST. Such a position is ridiculous, destructive, and the myth that has been propagated here about moderates and centrists is deliberately designed to take the power from the center. It's time that we all reject that.
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27th August 2003, 11:03 AM	#16
c0rbin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,806	Corplinx, you have fallen into the trap of labelling. Being anti-bush does not make one a communist nor an enemy of the US. There is always more than two options, opinions, view-points. One is free to find the third option.
c0rbin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,806	__________________ By convention there is color, By convention sweetness, By convention bitterness, But in reality there are atoms and space. --Democritus (c. 400 BCE)

27th August 2003, 11:04 AM	#17
Keneke Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 980	All hail militant centrism!
Keneke Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 980

27th August 2003, 11:14 AM	#18
T'ai Chi Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 11,235	Being in the center is great. It is the Taoist principle of avoiding the extremes. Being a center is also one of the best positions in basketball. I want to be like Wilt Chamberlin, ya know what I mean?? A while ago I had a Centris. That was a damn good computer for its time, and is only 1 letter away from centrist. And how could anybody be anti-bush, ya know what I mean?? I think any extreme is silly. "Dull the edges!"
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27th August 2003, 11:36 AM	#19
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by T'ai Chi I think any extreme is silly. "Dull the edges!" As they say, T'ai, maybe you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
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27th August 2003, 11:46 AM	#20
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,727	Corplinx, is trolling, getting ready for the elections. Down boy, have a cigar , nice doggie. There is a great misunderstanding of the way consensous government works in the USA, people ofetn but the rhetoric about the ineffectual natute of consensual politics. So in the uSA people ofetn forget that centrists often weild a greater deal of power than extremeists. Take for example Truman, Eisenhower and Clinton, and maybe FDR for very good examples, these were presidents who weilded alot of power by occasionaly playing the ends off the middle. The weilded tremendous power behind the scenes by making deals and keeping them. This despite the fact that they were ofetn viewed as being is opposition to the powqers that be. There is great power in centrist politics, which extremists don't understand. PS> JJ I think it would be great if there were more socialists like you!
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27th August 2003, 01:02 PM	#21
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by Dancing David There is great power in centrist politics, which extremists don't understand. PS> JJ I think it would be great if there were more socialists like you! Yeah, right. Sorry, I find socialism completely disfunctional, if I had to choose a place, I'd say I'm mostly a free marketer but with some exceptions for commons issues. (I find it hard to joke about such things given that we have the equal of Joe McCarthy as attourney general right now.) My arguments are mostly mathematical, with premises based on the demonstrated social and economic outcomes demonstrated through history.
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27th August 2003, 01:52 PM	#22
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,356	Quote: Originally posted by jj (I find it hard to joke about such things given that we have the equal of Joe McCarthy as attourney general right now.) My arguments are mostly mathematical, with premises based on the demonstrated social and economic outcomes demonstrated through history. Well, then you won't have any trouble demonstrably proving that John Ashcroft is the equal of Joe McCarthy. I look forward to the demonstration. Thanks in advance. I would guess that there are "centerists" who lean to the left and the right. If you are indeed a centerist then I would say that you certainly lean to the left. You have a right to call yourself a centrist jj but I'm curious, why do you think that you are a centerist?
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27th August 2003, 01:55 PM	#23
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,356	For the record I see myself as both a moderate and a centrist. I might be wrong though and just confusing libertarianism with centrism. I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I dislike the extremes of both parties. I would be happy to hear anyones thought on the subject.
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27th August 2003, 02:26 PM	#24
c0rbin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,806	A moderate (or centerist) might be one who doesn't necessarily tow the party line down the list of issues, but is able to hold rightward leanings for one issue and leftist leanings for the next. Just an opinion.
c0rbin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,806	__________________ By convention there is color, By convention sweetness, By convention bitterness, But in reality there are atoms and space. --Democritus (c. 400 BCE)

27th August 2003, 03:12 PM	#25
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by RandFan Well, then you won't have any trouble demonstrably proving that John Ashcroft is the equal of Joe McCarthy. I look forward to the demonstration. Thanks in advance. That is a purely dishonest request on your part, based wholly on taking my comments out of context. Is there a reason that you guys who seem to be RandFans do this all the time? You and Shanek are two of the worst offenders on this site. So, why did you do that? That was dishonest and unethical of you. Explain yourself. I would guess that there are "centerists" who lean to the left and the right. If you are indeed a centerist then I would say that you certainly lean to the left. I lean to the left? Really? Because I oppose the extremist right that we have today? Because I say that some of the basic commons require regulation in order to function safely and efficiently? How do I lean to the left? I am reminded of someone I went to college with, who accused anyone, any time, anywhere who asserted any kind of regulation was "socialist". He was a capital 'L' "Libertarian", wore a silver dollar sign as jewelry every day, and professed to want to solve the problem of human aging and sell it only to the rich. Is that the game here? I propose that commons require regulation (not necessarily communial or government ownership, note), and that other than that, I'm pretty much a free marketeer. That is so far from ANY economic position the left espouses that you must be thinking of some other "left", eh? Or do I lean to the left because I argue for individual liberties and against regulating behavior of consenting, competant adults? Is that my "leftist" leanings? Again, that's only a "left' leaning for some other left than we all know and love, since there's no "except for their own good" included here. You have a right to call yourself a centrist jj but I'm curious, why do you think that you are a centerist? Because I am. What are you?
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27th August 2003, 03:37 PM	#26
EvilYeti Suspended Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,594	I used to straddle the fence, but my urologist said it was bad for my prostate! But seriously folks, as my late uncle was fond of saying, "The enemy isn't liberalism, the enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy is ********." Truer words have never been spoken. The good news is the public seems to like centrists like Clinton more than extremists like the Bush family, so hopefully we will see Dubya out on his behind come next election. The bad news is we will likely never see a centrist Republican candidate like John McCain (which I would vote for) as the party is absolutely rife with fundies and extremists. It's amazing how many Republicans critize our current adminstration for being too liberal!!!
EvilYeti Suspended Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,594

27th August 2003, 03:51 PM	#27
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by EvilYeti I used to straddle the fence, but my urologist said it was bad for my prostate! Budda bump - Crash! Thank you, thank you, ladies and germs, and now showing at the Pocono Grand von Haupsfelt we have ... It's amazing how many Republicans critize our current adminstration for being too liberal!!! We had a hint when the Arizona 'pubs threw Barry Goldwater out of the party, I think, eh?
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27th August 2003, 04:01 PM	#28
EvilYeti Suspended Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,594	Quote: Originally posted by jj We had a hint when the Arizona 'pubs threw Barry Goldwater out of the party, I think, eh? Before my time, but if its anything like what happened to McCain, absolutely disgusting.
EvilYeti Suspended Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,594

27th August 2003, 05:11 PM	#29
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by EvilYeti Before my time, but if its anything like what happened to McCain, absolutely disgusting. And like what they're doing to Arnie S now. They'll cut their own throats before they let a social liberal, economic conservative win in California. Pathetic. There is a litmus test for republigun candidates at the present. You must be anti-abortion, anti-human-rights, anti-civil-rights, anti-womens-rights, pro-military (got one right, I guess), and unconditionally support the RNC and 'W'. Arnie does not, unless he's been greviously misrepresented, pass about 2/3 of those, and just watch, they'll arrange for a good smearing. Maybe as a result Flynt will win. That would be beyond the pale, eh? (My own candidate would be Don Novello, aka "Father Guido Sarducci" or "Lazlo J. Toth"...)
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27th August 2003, 05:38 PM	#30
EvilYeti Suspended Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,594	Quote: Originally posted by jj Arnie does not, unless he's been greviously misrepresented, pass about 2/3 of those, and just watch, they'll arrange for a good smearing. Its really a riot, "The Smoking Gun" just published an interview with a 29 year old Arnold talking about doing drugs and participating in sex orgies. Not to mention the relationship between body builders and their penis. I wonder what the Repubbie response to that is going to be. An Arnold victory in California would likely redefine the phrase "to hoist with his own petard" with regards to the Republican party. Who knows, maybe a AS victory will pave the way for more liberal Republicans and lead to the destructions of the current right-wing power structure. I might live to see president McCain after all! Myself, I'm voting for Gary Coleman. If I can hear "Whachoo be talkin' bout, Mr. Secretary of Commerce?" just once on CSPAN, I will die I a happy man!
EvilYeti Suspended Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,594

27th August 2003, 07:55 PM	#31
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Quote: Originally posted by Dancing David Corplinx, is trolling, getting ready for the elections. Down boy, have a cigar , nice doggie. I'm not trolling. I have never seen a post by JJ that couldnt have been posted by Malachi and not been out of flavor. Can anyone find one thread where JJ ever acted like a centrist? (whatever the hell that means).
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27th August 2003, 08:46 PM	#32
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx I'm not trolling. I have never seen a post by JJ that couldnt have been posted by Malachi and not been out of flavor. Can anyone find one thread where JJ ever acted like a centrist? (whatever the hell that means). Stop lying. You've seen the posts where I've whacked Malachi upside the head, they've been in the same threads I've been whacking your sorry behind. So stop lying.
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27th August 2003, 09:54 PM	#33
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,356	jj, I think you took my post too much as an attack. We don't need to end up enemies. I have a feeling we are closer in ideology than most. Please accept my apology if you have been offended. Quote: RandFan Well, then you won't have any trouble demonstrably proving that John Ashcroft is the equal of Joe McCarthy. I look forward to the demonstration. Thanks in advance. jj That is a purely dishonest request on your part, based wholly on taking my comments out of context. If I truly did take your statement out of context then I apologize. I am honestly confused though how I did that. Quote: I find it hard to joke about such things given that we have the equal of Joe McCarthy as attorney general right now. Would you please explain how I took the above out of context? Were you just engaging in hyperbole? It looked like a claim to me. Quote: So, why did you do that? That was dishonest and unethical of you. Explain yourself. Well, I have offered an apology but I really did not intentionally try to do anything dishonest or unethical. I think it incumbent on you to explain how I was both unethical and dishonest. I of course welcome any comments from Tricky, Sub, Kcin or others. If I am wrong shown to be wrong I will admit it. I honestly don't see it right now though. Quote: I lean to the left? Really? Because I oppose the extremist right that we have today? Because I say that some of the basic commons require regulation in order to function safely and efficiently? No, it's because the only criticism I can remember you making is towards the left. In addition your criticism of the right is seems to me to be extreme. The centrists that I have known or thought were centrists never made voiced such extreme views of a republican president. In any event let me moderate my post to say, you "seem" to me to lean to the left. I apologize for making the statement without a qualifier. I hope that I am entitled to an opinion. Quote: Is that the game here? I am making an honest observation. I am sorry if I did it poorly and offended you. I can honestly say that I would never describe you as a centrist based on what I have heard and seen. Of course I could have missed your "moderate" posts. In which case my opinion is wrong isn't it. Since I have only seen you criticize the right, and criticized it with what seems to me to be little regard for any information except that which comes from the left then it seems unlikely to me that you would be a centrist. There are a number of Democrats who have come to the defense of Bush to some degree including Tricky on this forum when they thought the attacks were wrong or unfair. It does not seem to me that you have any interest in any such thing. I would think a centrist to be more likely to see both sides of the coin. You seem to only see one side. Quote: Or do I lean to the left because I argue for individual liberties and against regulating behavior of consenting, competent adults? Is that my "leftist" leanings? Well since I have argued at length that the idiotic war on drugs should end immediately, since I am for a woman's right to choose, since I am firmly for the legalization of prostitution it would hardly seem so. Quote: Because I am. What are you? I don't know. I honestly thought I was one until I met you. Now I wonder. I don't hate Bush. I'm not angry at the current administration. I see the arguments of both the Democrats and the Republicans. I see the importance of security especially after 911. I can see how the administration is acting in a sincere attempt to solve many of the problems that caused 911. Steve Brill a Democrat agrees and documented that fact. Why? Why would a respected journalist and editor do such a thing if Bush is as you portray him. Is it because Brill is objectively looking at the facts? I am honestly concerned about Bush's judicial appointments and the patriot act. I don't however think that these things are part of some conspiracy on the part of evil republicans. I'm not saying you do think that but your remarks certainly point somewhere in that direction. jj, the reason I'm not inclined to think that you are a centrist is that centrists in my mind are typically more objective basing their conclusions on reason and capable of seeing both sides of an argument. I belive that centrists are less likely to see politics in an emotional manner but are even handed in their approach to politics. Now to tell the truth I am often passionate and lash out. But when questioned on that passion I am willing to reign it in and look at things objectively. This is just my opinion. I cannot demonstrably prove that you are not a centrist. Hell, I'm not even sure what one is anymore. If my ideas about centrists are wrong then I would like a new word for what I do believe. If you say you are one then I will accept that and move on. I won't bring it up again. RandFan
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27th August 2003, 10:07 PM	#34
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,356	Quote: Originally posted by EvilYeti The good news is the public seems to like centrists like Clinton more than extremists like the Bush family, Odd since many if not most conservatives think Bush is anything but conservative and are disappointed with many of his policies. And I would never accuse Clinton of being a centrist and I am quite confident that none of his closest allies including Stephanopolus would see him as that. Clinton was not as far to the left as many accused him but he certainly did not start his presidency on a centrist route. His health care plans were about as far from the right as one could get. His move to the left after the 1994 take over of congress would certainly indicate that his right leaning ideas were politically motivated. Quote: The bad news is we will likely never see a centrist Republican candidate like John McCain I would also. Quote: (which I would vote for) as the party is absolutely rife with fundies and extremists. Don't forget that it was the left-wing extremists (voting green) that cost Gore the election. Quote: It's amazing how many Republicans critisize our current administration for being too liberal!!! Thank you for proving my point. And wasn't amazing how many Liberals criticized Gore for being to Conservative!!!! ("Not a dimes bit of difference") How many times did we hear that one?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

28th August 2003, 04:23 AM	#35
Kodiak Ursus arctos middendorffi Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastpointe Posts: 3,279	Re: The dishonest, manipulitive myth of the ineffective centrist. Quote: Originally posted by jj Just today, I've had both the right and the left tell me that centrists are people who accept the status quo, not people who conclude that moderation in all thing, including moderation, is the way to go. This myth is, I contend, deliberately designed to destructively polarize and destroy concensus so that the lunatic fringe can have its day. I call on all centrists to rise up and smite all extremes. EXTREMELY. Moderate does not mean asleep. Neither does centrist. Both should, and do, find the excesses of the "left" and "right", whatever they may be at the minute, appalling. Some do, I have to admit, assume that 'it will all swing around'. History does not suggest that, it shows that extremism of some sort has been the death of nearly every, if not every society in history. Sometimes (communism, nazis) the extremism is built into the system. Sometimes (fall of Moorish civilizations for instance, or the dark ages) it's due to extremist religion. Sometimes (Uganda) it's due to extremist bullies. Extremistism has a very bad record for destroying society after society, and it must be resisted, in all forms, left, right, up, down and sideways alike. This does not imply stasis. Moderation is in all things, including moderation. So get with it, centrists, speak up. False dilemma. Sorry, but one can loathe fence-sitting, finger-in-the-wind, holier-than-thou moderates and still not be an extremist. It isn't as simple as either/or.
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