Lung Toxins

ilikefrogs · 2nd August 2007, 05:11 AM

While reading the sports section of The Washington Post this morning, I came across this comment...

Quote:

Two physical therapists, who work full time for [Dara] Torres, bent over her and began the daily process of coaxing her body into swimming condition. Anne Tierney squeezed and rotated Torres's quadriceps. Steven Sierra pumped Torres's rib cage to force toxins out of her lungs.

Dara Torres is at the USA Swimming National Championships, trying to become the first swimmer over 40 to compete in the Olympics.

The comment about forcing toxins from the lungs caught my attention. Does anyone know if there really are toxins that accumulate in the lungs, and if pumping the ribs would get rid of them?

Cuddles · 2nd August 2007, 05:26 AM

Well, I suppose carbon dioxide is a toxin if you have enough of it, and pumping the lungs tends to get rid of it, although not for very long. Somehow I doubt this is what they mean though.

Certain conditions such as cystic fibrosis cause excessive mucus buildup in the lungs and massaging the chest and back helps loosen it, but again, I'm fairly sure this isn't what they mean.

Is there a link to the article so we can tell the context?

ilikefrogs · 2nd August 2007, 05:59 AM

I included the full paragraph, but here is the link. I think you need a subscription to read articles, but it's free to sign up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080102538.html

I suspect there is a woo factor to all of this, since later on in the article, it talks about Torres using a "holistic approach to training" and physical therapists running "their fingertips over Torres's back and shoulders, a method of touch intended to rid the body of excess energy and tension."

Cuddles · 2nd August 2007, 06:07 AM

Thanks. By the context I wasn't implying the quote was out of context, I just meant that there could be some validity in it if this was, for example, talking about the attempts of a cytic fibrosis sufferer to swim. As it is, it is clearly utter nonsense. Massing your ribs will not get toxins out of your lungs any more than coffee enemas will get them out of your intestines. Mainly because these vague "toxins" don't actually exist.

Beautifully summed up by one of the "therapists" involved:

Quote:

"Maybe this works," said Tierney, one of the physical therapists. "We're not really sure".

They have absolutely no clue what they are doing or why they are doing it, they just think it sounds good.

JoeEllison · 2nd August 2007, 06:25 AM

Wow, even elite athletes can be complete idiots... oh, wait, we knew that!

casebro · 2nd August 2007, 08:09 AM

You do exhale other stuff than CO2. Like ketones and alcohol. And some of the odors of what you have eaten. But are they "toxins"? And normal breathing using the diaphragm as well as the rib cage will exhale them better than somebody trying to break you ribs. Or is stretches for the rib cage the real point?

Cuddles · 2nd August 2007, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

You do exhale other stuff than CO2. Like ketones and alcohol. And some of the odors of what you have eaten. But are they "toxins"? And normal breathing using the diaphragm as well as the rib cage will exhale them better than somebody trying to break you ribs. Or is stretches for the rib cage the real point?

Yeah, I was just using CO₂ as an example. As for what the real point is, I think that quote from one of the therapists makes it quite clear that there is no point, or at least if there is they don't actually have a clue what it is.

BlackKat · 2nd August 2007, 09:14 AM

Well there is all kinds of stuff that can get in the lungs that is "toxic" and I am using that term in the losest way possible. Whether you can get it out is another matter. Asbestos fibres, solid airborne pollutants like coal ash or cigarette smoke residue, phlegm. You're certainly not going to get those things out by "pumping the rib cage". Maybe with a souped up shop vac (don't try this at home you may no longer have lungs).

Certainly some woo therapy there. Might as well hang her by the ankles and give her a good shake like a ketchup bottle.

Dr. Imago · 2nd August 2007, 09:20 AM

Take 10-12 rapid, deep breaths in succession and you will blow off CO2. Then, tell me how you feel. That's called "respiratory alkalosis", and it's not a good thing generally.

You can't really rid "toxins" from your lungs in the manner described. Certainly, as casebro describes, there are volatile compounds that circulate through your bloodstream that can cross the alveolar blood-lung barrier and be exhaled. The primary route of removal of anesthetic gasses (the area I'm expert in) is via exhalation. But, this example is more exception than rule.

Most "toxins" are rid from the body via the intestines and urine. The kidneys and liver are the primary routes of excretion. There is a normal tension (in the partial pressure sense) of dissolved gasses within the body. Oxygen tension breathing room air is about 90-100 mmHg and CO2 is normally 40 mmHg. CO2 is a normal byproduct of carbohydrate and cellular metabolism. Other dissolved substances that cross the blood-lung barrier account for trace amounts of what is excreted by the body.

So, while this may be true in a small extent, the actual contribution of ridding "toxins" in the body via the lungs is negligible. Certainly, "pumping the rib cage" of someone does not really add to this effect any more than simply exhaling does.

-Dr. Imago

2nd August 2007, 05:11 AM	#1
ilikefrogs Student Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 49	Lung Toxins While reading the sports section of The Washington Post this morning, I came across this comment... Quote: Two physical therapists, who work full time for [Dara] Torres, bent over her and began the daily process of coaxing her body into swimming condition. Anne Tierney squeezed and rotated Torres's quadriceps. Steven Sierra pumped Torres's rib cage to force toxins out of her lungs. Dara Torres is at the USA Swimming National Championships, trying to become the first swimmer over 40 to compete in the Olympics. The comment about forcing toxins from the lungs caught my attention. Does anyone know if there really are toxins that accumulate in the lungs, and if pumping the ribs would get rid of them?
ilikefrogs Student Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 49

2nd August 2007, 05:26 AM	#2
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,566	Well, I suppose carbon dioxide is a toxin if you have enough of it, and pumping the lungs tends to get rid of it, although not for very long. Somehow I doubt this is what they mean though. Certain conditions such as cystic fibrosis cause excessive mucus buildup in the lungs and massaging the chest and back helps loosen it, but again, I'm fairly sure this isn't what they mean. Is there a link to the article so we can tell the context?
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

2nd August 2007, 05:59 AM	#3
ilikefrogs Student Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 49	I included the full paragraph, but here is the link. I think you need a subscription to read articles, but it's free to sign up. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080102538.html I suspect there is a woo factor to all of this, since later on in the article, it talks about Torres using a "holistic approach to training" and physical therapists running "their fingertips over Torres's back and shoulders, a method of touch intended to rid the body of excess energy and tension."
ilikefrogs Student Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 49	Last edited by ilikefrogs; 2nd August 2007 at 06:02 AM.

2nd August 2007, 06:07 AM	#4
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,566	Thanks. By the context I wasn't implying the quote was out of context, I just meant that there could be some validity in it if this was, for example, talking about the attempts of a cytic fibrosis sufferer to swim. As it is, it is clearly utter nonsense. Massing your ribs will not get toxins out of your lungs any more than coffee enemas will get them out of your intestines. Mainly because these vague "toxins" don't actually exist. Beautifully summed up by one of the "therapists" involved: Quote: "Maybe this works," said Tierney, one of the physical therapists. "We're not really sure". They have absolutely no clue what they are doing or why they are doing it, they just think it sounds good.
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

2nd August 2007, 08:09 AM	#6
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,787	You do exhale other stuff than CO2. Like ketones and alcohol. And some of the odors of what you have eaten. But are they "toxins"? And normal breathing using the diaphragm as well as the rib cage will exhale them better than somebody trying to break you ribs. Or is stretches for the rib cage the real point?
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,787	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

2nd August 2007, 06:25 AM	#5
JoeEllison Cuddly Like a Koala Bear Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 7,276	Wow, even elite athletes can be complete idiots... oh, wait, we knew that!

2nd August 2007, 08:59 AM	#7
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,566	Originally Posted by casebro You do exhale other stuff than CO2. Like ketones and alcohol. And some of the odors of what you have eaten. But are they "toxins"? And normal breathing using the diaphragm as well as the rib cage will exhale them better than somebody trying to break you ribs. Or is stretches for the rib cage the real point? Yeah, I was just using CO₂ as an example. As for what the real point is, I think that quote from one of the therapists makes it quite clear that there is no point, or at least if there is they don't actually have a clue what it is.
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

2nd August 2007, 09:14 AM	#8
BlackKat Path Crosser Join Date: May 2007 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 325	Well there is all kinds of stuff that can get in the lungs that is "toxic" and I am using that term in the losest way possible. Whether you can get it out is another matter. Asbestos fibres, solid airborne pollutants like coal ash or cigarette smoke residue, phlegm. You're certainly not going to get those things out by "pumping the rib cage". Maybe with a souped up shop vac (don't try this at home you may no longer have lungs). Certainly some woo therapy there. Might as well hang her by the ankles and give her a good shake like a ketchup bottle.

2nd August 2007, 09:20 AM	#9
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,050	Take 10-12 rapid, deep breaths in succession and you will blow off CO2. Then, tell me how you feel. That's called "respiratory alkalosis", and it's not a good thing generally. You can't really rid "toxins" from your lungs in the manner described. Certainly, as casebro describes, there are volatile compounds that circulate through your bloodstream that can cross the alveolar blood-lung barrier and be exhaled. The primary route of removal of anesthetic gasses (the area I'm expert in) is via exhalation. But, this example is more exception than rule. Most "toxins" are rid from the body via the intestines and urine. The kidneys and liver are the primary routes of excretion. There is a normal tension (in the partial pressure sense) of dissolved gasses within the body. Oxygen tension breathing room air is about 90-100 mmHg and CO2 is normally 40 mmHg. CO2 is a normal byproduct of carbohydrate and cellular metabolism. Other dissolved substances that cross the blood-lung barrier account for trace amounts of what is excreted by the body. So, while this may be true in a small extent, the actual contribution of ridding "toxins" in the body via the lungs is negligible. Certainly, "pumping the rib cage" of someone does not really add to this effect any more than simply exhaling does. -Dr. Imago
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,050	__________________ DISCLAIMER: The above post is for informational and/or educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for the professional judgment of, in direct consultation with, a health care professional in diagnosing, treating, and/or preventing any disease or disorder. It is not to be construed as individualized medical advice, diagnosis, or a treatment recommendation. Your reliance upon the information obtained or used by you at, through, or as a result of this post is solely at your own risk.