Canada Introduces $10,000 Speeding Ticket

Temporal Renegade · 15th August 2007, 04:36 PM

Wasn't sure where else to put this.
Mods: if this needs to be moved, please do so.

No, the title isn't a joke:
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1918.asp

Miss Anthrope · 15th August 2007, 05:32 PM

Miss Modthrope: This is definitely the right section.

Miss Anthrope: Overkill, anyone? 10K?!?!?!

Carnivore · 15th August 2007, 05:58 PM

Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident. I believe that that If you are driving at 80 km/h in a 30 km/h zone or even 160 km/h in a 110km/h zone you are a danger to everyone else on or near the road. A severe punishment for the worst degree of offender does not seem inappropriate.

Gord_in_Toronto · 15th August 2007, 06:01 PM

Living here (Ontario) and living with the problem I have some understanding and background as to why this legislation was introduced. There have been a number of major accidents recently in which road racers have cut off trucks and caused death, injuries and highway closures measured in hours. I would guess that a majority of voters and drivers agree with the legislation.

As far as speeding on empty roads -- you cannot guaranty that they are really empty. In one recent crash that killed a taxi driver the idiots involve tried to pass him on the left as he was turning left. In a number of other cases drivers and passengers have been killed in single car accidents when they hit stationary objects such as trees.

I would like to think this new law will solve the problem but the only thing that will actually stop it is speed govenors on the engines. I suppose there is not much hope for this given the way cars are advertised in North America.

LashL · 15th August 2007, 06:58 PM

Well, I am looking at the Act in question and I do not see where it says anything that would support what the linked story says about "being caught driving 50km/h (31 MPH) over the speed limit will automatically trigger "street racing" penalties -- even if the accused motorist is driving alone on an otherwise empty road."

With respect to racing (the Act also deals with other matters such as drunk driving and organized crime as it relates to street racing), it amends section 172 of the HTA, inter alia, as follows:

Quote:

Racing, stunts, etc., prohibited

172. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway in a race or contest, while performing a stunt or on a bet or wager.

Offence

(2) Every person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $2,000 and not more than $10,000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months, or to both, and in addition his or her driver’s licence may be suspended,

(a) on a first conviction under this section, for not more than two years; or

(b) on a subsequent conviction under this section, for not more than 10 years.

It amends several other sections of the HTA as well, but I do not see anything that refers to 50k over the limit being deemed "racing" even if one is not, in fact, racing.

It also makes it an offence to modify a vehicle (for highway use) in a manner that makes it capable of using nitrous oxide in the fuel mixture, or to drive a vehicle on a highway using nitrous oxide in the fuel, etc. That particular offence is subject to a fine of not less than $500 and not more than $2000, and/or up to 6 months in jail.

There are already laws in place governing the fines for various rates of speed above the limit under the Highway Traffic Act, which work well for their intended purposes. This Act is intended to deal specifically with intentional racing, etc., not with mere speeding. So, I seriously doubt that $10,000 fines will be imposed for driving 50k over the speed limit if one is not, in fact, racing at the time. The intent and purpose of a law is important to its interpretation by courts.

I will read it in more detail, but on a cursory read of it, I do not see anything in it that suggests that one can be fined for "racing" if one is not, in fact, racing.

From the "explanatory note" at the Legislative Assembly of Ontario site, it says this about the amendments to the HTA wrt street racing:

Quote:

Section 172 prohibits street racing. The current penalty for street racing is a $200 minimum and $1,000 maximum fine or six months imprisonment, or both a fine and imprisonment, and a maximum driver’s licence suspension of two years. The fine is increased to a $2,000 minimum and $10,000 maximum. The driver’s licence suspension is increased to a maximum of two years for a first offence and a maximum of 10 years for a subsequent offence. In addition, there will be a seven-day administrative driver’s licence suspension and vehicle impoundment. The driver’s licence suspensions will apply not only to people with Ontario driver’s licences, but to drivers licensed by another jurisdiction as well.

New section 172.1 is enacted. It prohibits driving a motor vehicle equipped with a nitrous oxide fuel system except where the nitrous oxide connection is not operational.

Subsection 41 (1) is amended so that a person convicted under the recently passed street racing offences in the Criminal Code (Canada) will be subject to the same automatic driver’s licence suspensions on conviction as are persons convicted of impaired driving under the Criminal Code (Canada). A consequential amendment is made to section 46.

Section 214.1 is amended to provide that a person who is convicted of street racing in a community safety zone is subject to the same increased licence suspensions as would be imposed under section 172. Currently, the maximum licence suspension under section 214.1 is two years.

Tsukasa Buddha · 15th August 2007, 07:31 PM

Dude, that is the most awesome law ever.

Zep · 15th August 2007, 07:52 PM

Same deal here... Road safety campaign from a few years ago:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Fitter · 15th August 2007, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Carnivore

Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident. I believe that that If you are driving at 80 km/h in a 30 km/h zone or even 160 km/h in a 110km/h zone you are a danger to everyone else on or near the road. A severe punishment for the worst degree of offender does not seem inappropriate.

If you are driving on an undivided highway in northern Ontario hitting 140-150 is not unheard of to pass a transport truck. When you find a safe place to pass you still want to limit the time you are in opposing traffic's lane.

Just thinking · 15th August 2007, 08:01 PM

I have no objection to severe penalties for excessive and/or dangerous traffic violations --- what I have are problems with ridiculously low posted speed limits on roadways that are clearly designed and able to accommodate safe traffic at reasonable speeds.

Madalch · 15th August 2007, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Carnivore

Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident.

Yes you can, in places (like rural Alberta) where schools are located near highways.

Highway limit- 100 km/h.
School zone- 30 km/h.

If you don't notice the sign in time, you're 70 clicks over the limit.

ImaginalDisc · 15th August 2007, 08:58 PM

Good. I hope they include jail time.

If I run willy-nilly through a crowded room swinging a sledge hammer wildly, I'd get arrested. But, if I drive my car recklessly down the highway, with complete disregard for the lives of others, moving a several thousand pound piece of metal around, I'd get a slap on the wrist. Cars are dangerous.

Yes, I am one of those people who likens not using a turn signal to criminal negligence.

Darat · 16th August 2007, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Madalch

...snip...

If you don't notice the sign in time, you're 70 clicks over the limit.

If your signage is anything like it is over here I can't see how people cannot notice the signs, there is never just one or even just one type of sign. We have markings on the road itself such as "Slow", "30 Mph", "School", signs on the side of the road saying the same and also the actual speed limits signs. I would suspect that if someone didn't notice those then they shouldn't be driving in the first place!

a_unique_person · 16th August 2007, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Living here (Ontario) and living with the problem I have some understanding and background as to why this legislation was introduced. There have been a number of major accidents recently in which road racers have cut off trucks and caused death, injuries and highway closures measured in hours. I would guess that a majority of voters and drivers agree with the legislation.

As far as speeding on empty roads -- you cannot guaranty that they are really empty. In one recent crash that killed a taxi driver the idiots involve tried to pass him on the left as he was turning left. In a number of other cases drivers and passengers have been killed in single car accidents when they hit stationary objects such as trees.

I would like to think this new law will solve the problem but the only thing that will actually stop it is speed govenors on the engines. I suppose there is not much hope for this given the way cars are advertised in North America.

Risk taking by idiots is on the rise here, too. An old couple was recently wiped out by a head on when they did a right hand turn (this is Austlralia), across a highway, into the path of some street racing idiots. They would have assumed that the lights were so far away, they had plenty of time. Unfortunately, the cars were coming towards them at way above the legal limit. They braked so hard, they blew their tyres. The old couple never had a chance.

Whoracle · 16th August 2007, 02:07 AM

How about just impounding the car for a month or something? It's kind of hard to drive like a maniac without any wheels.

richardm · 16th August 2007, 02:30 AM

10,000 Canadian Dollars is about ten times the maximum fine you'd expect to get for speeding in the UK. Rather a lot, in other words.

Originally Posted by Darat

If your signage is anything like it is over here I can't see how people cannot notice the signs, there is never just one or even just one type of sign. We have markings on the road itself such as "Slow", "30 Mph", "School", signs on the side of the road saying the same and also the actual speed limits signs. I would suspect that if someone didn't notice those then they shouldn't be driving in the first place!

They're also introducing countdown signs in more and more places - a good idea for situations like that where you do have one road running for hundreds of miles with little villages knotted onto the road here and there. At least, I think they're a good idea - you can't find yourself suddenly and unexpectedly way over the speed limit. According to the Department for Transport, however, they have next to no effect on vehicle speeds and only serve to confuse drivers with roadside clutter. Shows what I know!

Darat · 16th August 2007, 02:33 AM

I think they should allow villages like that to operate "speed spikes" so if you go screaming through the "We welcome careful drivers" signs ignoring the speed limits as you pass out of the village the spikes are raised - they rip your tyres to shreds and you come to a stop before an illuminated sign that says "But not careless drivers - have a nice day!"

Zep · 16th August 2007, 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by Whoracle

How about just impounding the car for a month or something? It's kind of hard to drive like a maniac without any wheels.

Or turning it into a 1 metre steel cube...

Damien Evans · 16th August 2007, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by Zep

Or turning it into a 1 metre steel cube...

They do that in California, correct?

Zep · 16th August 2007, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

They do that in California, correct?

So we are led to believe. Can any Arnie-staters give us the good oil?

timhau · 16th August 2007, 06:39 AM

A speeding ticket of 10,000 Canadian dollars?

Ha ha.

Horatius · 16th August 2007, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Racing, stunts, etc., prohibited

172. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway in a race or contest, while performing a stunt or on a bet or wager.

So, if I bet you I can drive from Toronto to Hamilton without violating any driving rules, I'd be liable under this act?

Not mention, almost certain to lose the bet....

Normal Dude · 16th August 2007, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Zep

So we are led to believe. Can any Arnie-staters give us the good oil?

I have never heard of it, but California is a big state and its possible some county somewhere does it. although it is rumoured that Arnold will snap your neck with two fingers if you speed on the Capital street in Sacramento.

I like that fine. I have a major pet peeve about how easily people can get away with misusing large fast moving metal and glass machines of death.. err I mean cars.

casebro · 16th August 2007, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

A speeding ticket of 10,000 Canadian dollars?

Ha ha.

I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle.

ponderingturtle · 16th August 2007, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Carnivore

Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident. I believe that that If you are driving at 80 km/h in a 30 km/h zone or even 160 km/h in a 110km/h zone you are a danger to everyone else on or near the road. A severe punishment for the worst degree of offender does not seem inappropriate.

I can. 50 km/h is 30 mph. I know plenty of places that you could be that the speed-limit suddenly drops with no general change in the nature of the road and only 1 sign. So if you are driving a little over the speed limit and miss a sign, BAM $10,000 fine.

Look at the great incentive to put poorly visible speed limit signs as a revenue generating feature.

timhau · 16th August 2007, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle.

Yeah, I don't think it's a bad system. Note that the enormous fines mentioned in those news items all got reduced on appeal -- they are always calculated on the basis of the income from the previous fiscal year, and if you can show that your income during the current year is significantly smaller, it will be recalculated (if your income will be significantly higher, lucky you).

For minor traffic violations, you will get a set fine which ranges from €50 to €150 (or something like that), depending on the offense. In the case of speeding, they start hitting you with income-based fines when you go more than 20km/h over the limit.

Damien Evans · 16th August 2007, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle.

sounds like a good idea to me

Fitter · 16th August 2007, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

If your signage is anything like it is over here I can't see how people cannot notice the signs, there is never just one or even just one type of sign. We have markings on the road itself such as "Slow", "30 Mph", "School", signs on the side of the road saying the same and also the actual speed limits signs. I would suspect that if someone didn't notice those then they shouldn't be driving in the first place!

The signage in Alberta is quite different. You will find only lane markers painted on our roads as anything else painted on them would often be covered by snow in winter. There is a town near me (300 km is close around here) where one approaches a school zone at 100 km/h and the warning sign for 30 km/h and the school zone sign are on the same post. As Madalch says it is quite easy to be doing 70 km/h over the speed limit if you don't know the school is there and you miss the first sign.

Madalch · 16th August 2007, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle.

I remember hearing a particularly annoying radio personality (Danny Finkelman, for those of you who listen to CBC) complain about how unfair this would be- he couldn't afford -anything-, not even a hamburger, if the cost was pegged to his income (for Finkelman, this kind of statement passes for logic).

He utterly missed the point that you're not buying anything when you pay a speeding ticket, you're being punished for breaking the law. People should be punished equally, and a $500 fine is a much more severe punishment for someone making minimum wage than it is for Bill Gates. 0.05% of your income is an equal punishment all round.

roger · 16th August 2007, 11:19 AM

Okay, enact this new rule.

Does this mean that if I am unemployeed, I can speed with impunity?

drkitten · 16th August 2007, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Madalch

Yes you can, in places (like rural Alberta) where schools are located near highways.

Highway limit- 100 km/h.
School zone- 30 km/h.

If you don't notice the sign in time, you're 70 clicks over the limit.

Hmmm. So there are idiots out there driving three or more times the legal limit near schools?

I think I just changed my mind and now support the death penalty. Using all the creative torture methods known to the Stalinists. $10,000 isn't nearly harsh enough.

drkitten · 16th August 2007, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Fitter

The signage in Alberta is quite different. You will find only lane markers painted on our roads as anything else painted on them would often be covered by snow in winter. [...] As Madalch says it is quite easy to be doing 70 km/h over the speed limit if you don't know the school is there and you miss the first sign.

... in the snow. Even better.

$10,000 isn't enough.

drkitten · 16th August 2007, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Zep

So we are led to believe. Can any Arnie-staters give us the good oil?

Check out here:

Quote:

Date: June 21, 2007

RIALTO, California -- Six cars were crushed at a Southern California recycling plant Wednesday morning. The cars were impounded during illegal street races in San Bernardino County.

ponderingturtle · 16th August 2007, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

Hmmm. So there are idiots out there driving three or more times the legal limit near schools?

I think I just changed my mind and now support the death penalty. Using all the creative torture methods known to the Stalinists. $10,000 isn't nearly harsh enough.

Good, so you think how much should the penalty be for missing a street sign? $20,000 $50,000 $100,000?

Darth Rotor · 16th August 2007, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Good, so you think how much should the penalty be for missing a street sign? $20,000 $50,000 $100,000?

*flash back to high school*

I never miss a street sigh. I go slow enough that the Miller Pony bottle I throw at it always hits it.

DR

drkitten · 17th August 2007, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Good, so you think how much should the penalty be for missing a street sign? $20,000 $50,000 $100,000?

If by missing a street sign you expose multiple people (children, in particular) to significant risk of death due to your own willful behavior?.... Hmm. I suggest "attempted homicide." That's, what, twenty-five years? I believe that Canada also recognizes "negligent endangerment of a child" as a criminal offence, although I can't find the statute that defines the penalties. One count per child enrolled, of course.

ponderingturtle · 17th August 2007, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

If by missing a street sign you expose multiple people (children, in particular) to significant risk of death due to your own willful behavior?.... Hmm. I suggest "attempted homicide." That's, what, twenty-five years? I believe that Canada also recognizes "negligent endangerment of a child" as a criminal offence, although I can't find the statute that defines the penalties. One count per child enrolled, of course.

So you do think that missing one speed limit sign should now result in jail time?

I guess you don't drive.

Madalch · 17th August 2007, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

Hmmm. So there are idiots out there driving three or more times the legal limit near schools?

I think I just changed my mind and now support the death penalty. Using all the creative torture methods known to the Stalinists. $10,000 isn't nearly harsh enough.

You do realize that there's usually a fence between the school and the highway, right? And that no child walks to or from a school in such a location, right?

ponderingturtle · 17th August 2007, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Madalch

You do realize that there's usually a fence between the school and the highway, right? And that no child walks to or from a school in such a location, right?

No we are punishing people based on What You Don't Know. So as any traffic violation could well cause many people to die, they should all be punished as such.

Changing lanes with out signaling? 15 years, After all you never know if you will cause a bus load of hemophiliac kids to crash and explode.

Temporal Renegade · 17th August 2007, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by timhau

A speeding ticket of 10,000 Canadian dollars?

Ha ha.

Damn, I wish I was that rich to be that stupid!

Charlie Monoxide · 17th August 2007, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Temporal Renegade

Wasn't sure where else to put this.
Mods: if this needs to be moved, please do so.

No, the title isn't a joke:
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1918.asp

Does that include GST?

Charlie (just bought Strange Brew DVD) Monoxide

15th August 2007, 04:36 PM	#1
Temporal Renegade Last of the Time Lords Join Date: May 2003 Location: University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople Posts: 1,893	Canada Introduces $10,000 Speeding Ticket Wasn't sure where else to put this. Mods: if this needs to be moved, please do so. No, the title isn't a joke: http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1918.asp
	__________________ "Attention please..... a child has been lost in the Tunnel of Goats......" .......FATHER TED

15th August 2007, 05:32 PM	#2
Miss Anthrope All your post are belong to us Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: A Tiny Oasis in the PNW Posts: 3,597	Miss Modthrope: This is definitely the right section. Miss Anthrope: Overkill, anyone? 10K?!?!?!
	__________________ We're not elected officials, nor are we paid professionals. You want us to act as such? Fine. Cough up the cash - because as a professional, I don't come cheap."-Jmercer, who happens to rock.[/color]

15th August 2007, 05:58 PM	#3
Carnivore Salad Dodger Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 1,383	Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident. I believe that that If you are driving at 80 km/h in a 30 km/h zone or even 160 km/h in a 110km/h zone you are a danger to everyone else on or near the road. A severe punishment for the worst degree of offender does not seem inappropriate.
	__________________ "It's backwards thinking like this that made me leave Manchester. You Guinness swilling, Marmite blaspheming animal." - Malfie Henpox

15th August 2007, 06:01 PM	#4
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,416	Living here (Ontario) and living with the problem I have some understanding and background as to why this legislation was introduced. There have been a number of major accidents recently in which road racers have cut off trucks and caused death, injuries and highway closures measured in hours. I would guess that a majority of voters and drivers agree with the legislation. As far as speeding on empty roads -- you cannot guaranty that they are really empty. In one recent crash that killed a taxi driver the idiots involve tried to pass him on the left as he was turning left. In a number of other cases drivers and passengers have been killed in single car accidents when they hit stationary objects such as trees. I would like to think this new law will solve the problem but the only thing that will actually stop it is speed govenors on the engines. I suppose there is not much hope for this given the way cars are advertised in North America.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

15th August 2007, 06:58 PM	#5
LashL Goddess of Legaltainment™ Administrator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 26,220	Well, I am looking at the Act in question and I do not see where it says anything that would support what the linked story says about "being caught driving 50km/h (31 MPH) over the speed limit will automatically trigger "street racing" penalties -- even if the accused motorist is driving alone on an otherwise empty road." With respect to racing (the Act also deals with other matters such as drunk driving and organized crime as it relates to street racing), it amends section 172 of the HTA, inter alia, as follows: Quote: Racing, stunts, etc., prohibited 172. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway in a race or contest, while performing a stunt or on a bet or wager. Offence (2) Every person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $2,000 and not more than $10,000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months, or to both, and in addition his or her driver’s licence may be suspended, (a) on a first conviction under this section, for not more than two years; or (b) on a subsequent conviction under this section, for not more than 10 years. It amends several other sections of the HTA as well, but I do not see anything that refers to 50k over the limit being deemed "racing" even if one is not, in fact, racing. It also makes it an offence to modify a vehicle (for highway use) in a manner that makes it capable of using nitrous oxide in the fuel mixture, or to drive a vehicle on a highway using nitrous oxide in the fuel, etc. That particular offence is subject to a fine of not less than $500 and not more than $2000, and/or up to 6 months in jail. There are already laws in place governing the fines for various rates of speed above the limit under the Highway Traffic Act, which work well for their intended purposes. This Act is intended to deal specifically with intentional racing, etc., not with mere speeding. So, I seriously doubt that $10,000 fines will be imposed for driving 50k over the speed limit if one is not, in fact, racing at the time. The intent and purpose of a law is important to its interpretation by courts. I will read it in more detail, but on a cursory read of it, I do not see anything in it that suggests that one can be fined for "racing" if one is not, in fact, racing. From the "explanatory note" at the Legislative Assembly of Ontario site, it says this about the amendments to the HTA wrt street racing: Quote: Section 172 prohibits street racing. The current penalty for street racing is a $200 minimum and $1,000 maximum fine or six months imprisonment, or both a fine and imprisonment, and a maximum driver’s licence suspension of two years. The fine is increased to a $2,000 minimum and $10,000 maximum. The driver’s licence suspension is increased to a maximum of two years for a first offence and a maximum of 10 years for a subsequent offence. In addition, there will be a seven-day administrative driver’s licence suspension and vehicle impoundment. The driver’s licence suspensions will apply not only to people with Ontario driver’s licences, but to drivers licensed by another jurisdiction as well. New section 172.1 is enacted. It prohibits driving a motor vehicle equipped with a nitrous oxide fuel system except where the nitrous oxide connection is not operational. Subsection 41 (1) is amended so that a person convicted under the recently passed street racing offences in the Criminal Code (Canada) will be subject to the same automatic driver’s licence suspensions on conviction as are persons convicted of impaired driving under the Criminal Code (Canada). A consequential amendment is made to section 46. Section 214.1 is amended to provide that a person who is convicted of street racing in a community safety zone is subject to the same increased licence suspensions as would be imposed under section 172. Currently, the maximum licence suspension under section 214.1 is two years.
	Last edited by LashL; 15th August 2007 at 07:02 PM.

15th August 2007, 07:31 PM	#6
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,903	Dude, that is the most awesome law ever.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

15th August 2007, 07:58 PM	#8
Fitter Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Where the pavement ends Posts: 3,504	Originally Posted by Carnivore Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident. I believe that that If you are driving at 80 km/h in a 30 km/h zone or even 160 km/h in a 110km/h zone you are a danger to everyone else on or near the road. A severe punishment for the worst degree of offender does not seem inappropriate. If you are driving on an undivided highway in northern Ontario hitting 140-150 is not unheard of to pass a transport truck. When you find a safe place to pass you still want to limit the time you are in opposing traffic's lane.

15th August 2007, 08:01 PM	#9
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	I have no objection to severe penalties for excessive and/or dangerous traffic violations --- what I have are problems with ridiculously low posted speed limits on roadways that are clearly designed and able to accommodate safe traffic at reasonable speeds.
	__________________ Our greatest challenge is not just to ask the important questions, but to recognize the meaningless ones.

15th August 2007, 08:04 PM	#10
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,701	Originally Posted by Carnivore Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident. Yes you can, in places (like rural Alberta) where schools are located near highways. Highway limit- 100 km/h. School zone- 30 km/h. If you don't notice the sign in time, you're 70 clicks over the limit.
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

15th August 2007, 08:58 PM	#11
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Good. I hope they include jail time. If I run willy-nilly through a crowded room swinging a sledge hammer wildly, I'd get arrested. But, if I drive my car recklessly down the highway, with complete disregard for the lives of others, moving a several thousand pound piece of metal around, I'd get a slap on the wrist. Cars are dangerous. Yes, I am one of those people who likens not using a turn signal to criminal negligence.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47* Last edited by ImaginalDisc; 15th August 2007 at 09:07 PM.

16th August 2007, 12:37 AM	#12
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,771	Originally Posted by Madalch ...snip... If you don't notice the sign in time, you're 70 clicks over the limit. If your signage is anything like it is over here I can't see how people cannot notice the signs, there is never just one or even just one type of sign. We have markings on the road itself such as "Slow", "30 Mph", "School", signs on the side of the road saying the same and also the actual speed limits signs. I would suspect that if someone didn't notice those then they shouldn't be driving in the first place!
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

16th August 2007, 12:45 AM	#13
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,326	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Living here (Ontario) and living with the problem I have some understanding and background as to why this legislation was introduced. There have been a number of major accidents recently in which road racers have cut off trucks and caused death, injuries and highway closures measured in hours. I would guess that a majority of voters and drivers agree with the legislation. As far as speeding on empty roads -- you cannot guaranty that they are really empty. In one recent crash that killed a taxi driver the idiots involve tried to pass him on the left as he was turning left. In a number of other cases drivers and passengers have been killed in single car accidents when they hit stationary objects such as trees. I would like to think this new law will solve the problem but the only thing that will actually stop it is speed govenors on the engines. I suppose there is not much hope for this given the way cars are advertised in North America. Risk taking by idiots is on the rise here, too. An old couple was recently wiped out by a head on when they did a right hand turn (this is Austlralia), across a highway, into the path of some street racing idiots. They would have assumed that the lights were so far away, they had plenty of time. Unfortunately, the cars were coming towards them at way above the legal limit. They braked so hard, they blew their tyres. The old couple never had a chance.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

16th August 2007, 02:07 AM	#14
Whoracle Suspended Join Date: May 2003 Location: South of Heaven Posts: 343	How about just impounding the car for a month or something? It's kind of hard to drive like a maniac without any wheels.

16th August 2007, 02:30 AM	#15
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	10,000 Canadian Dollars is about ten times the maximum fine you'd expect to get for speeding in the UK. Rather a lot, in other words. Originally Posted by Darat If your signage is anything like it is over here I can't see how people cannot notice the signs, there is never just one or even just one type of sign. We have markings on the road itself such as "Slow", "30 Mph", "School", signs on the side of the road saying the same and also the actual speed limits signs. I would suspect that if someone didn't notice those then they shouldn't be driving in the first place! They're also introducing countdown signs in more and more places - a good idea for situations like that where you do have one road running for hundreds of miles with little villages knotted onto the road here and there. At least, I think they're a good idea - you can't find yourself suddenly and unexpectedly way over the speed limit. According to the Department for Transport, however, they have next to no effect on vehicle speeds and only serve to confuse drivers with roadside clutter. Shows what I know!
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

16th August 2007, 02:33 AM	#16
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,771	I think they should allow villages like that to operate "speed spikes" so if you go screaming through the "We welcome careful drivers" signs ignoring the speed limits as you pass out of the village the spikes are raised - they rip your tyres to shreds and you come to a stop before an illuminated sign that says "But not careless drivers - have a nice day!"
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

16th August 2007, 03:04 AM	#17
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	Originally Posted by Whoracle How about just impounding the car for a month or something? It's kind of hard to drive like a maniac without any wheels. Or turning it into a 1 metre steel cube...
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

16th August 2007, 06:17 AM	#18
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,285	Originally Posted by Zep Or turning it into a 1 metre steel cube... They do that in California, correct?
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

16th August 2007, 06:25 AM	#19
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	Originally Posted by Damien Evans They do that in California, correct? So we are led to believe. Can any Arnie-staters give us the good oil?
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

16th August 2007, 06:39 AM	#20
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,661	A speeding ticket of 10,000 Canadian dollars? Ha ha.

16th August 2007, 06:50 AM	#21
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 21,890	Quote: Racing, stunts, etc., prohibited 172. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway in a race or contest, while performing a stunt or on a bet or wager. So, if I bet you I can drive from Toronto to Hamilton without violating any driving rules, I'd be liable under this act? Not mention, almost certain to lose the bet....
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

16th August 2007, 06:52 AM	#22
Normal Dude Space Shuttle Door Gunner Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: W/ The Evil Council Posts: 3,959	Originally Posted by Zep So we are led to believe. Can any Arnie-staters give us the good oil? I have never heard of it, but California is a big state and its possible some county somewhere does it. although it is rumoured that Arnold will snap your neck with two fingers if you speed on the Capital street in Sacramento. I like that fine. I have a major pet peeve about how easily people can get away with misusing large fast moving metal and glass machines of death.. err I mean cars.
	__________________ "At some point, you just get past the horror of someone having these beliefs, and begin to enjoy the sheer comedy of it all." Complexity And I dont care if your name is Norm or Jack, Or Dick. I dont see why you have to post your name everytime you make a comment./ its IRRELIVANT -Rwalsh

16th August 2007, 06:56 AM	#23
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,792	Originally Posted by timhau A speeding ticket of 10,000 Canadian dollars? Ha ha. I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle.
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,792	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

16th August 2007, 07:08 AM	#24
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,424	Originally Posted by Carnivore Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident. I believe that that If you are driving at 80 km/h in a 30 km/h zone or even 160 km/h in a 110km/h zone you are a danger to everyone else on or near the road. A severe punishment for the worst degree of offender does not seem inappropriate. I can. 50 km/h is 30 mph. I know plenty of places that you could be that the speed-limit suddenly drops with no general change in the nature of the road and only 1 sign. So if you are driving a little over the speed limit and miss a sign, BAM $10,000 fine. Look at the great incentive to put poorly visible speed limit signs as a revenue generating feature.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

16th August 2007, 07:12 AM	#25
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,661	Originally Posted by casebro I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle. Yeah, I don't think it's a bad system. Note that the enormous fines mentioned in those news items all got reduced on appeal -- they are always calculated on the basis of the income from the previous fiscal year, and if you can show that your income during the current year is significantly smaller, it will be recalculated (if your income will be significantly higher, lucky you). For minor traffic violations, you will get a set fine which ranges from €50 to €150 (or something like that), depending on the offense. In the case of speeding, they start hitting you with income-based fines when you go more than 20km/h over the limit.

16th August 2007, 07:20 AM	#26
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,285	Originally Posted by casebro I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle. sounds like a good idea to me
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

16th August 2007, 09:30 AM	#27
Fitter Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Where the pavement ends Posts: 3,504	Originally Posted by Darat If your signage is anything like it is over here I can't see how people cannot notice the signs, there is never just one or even just one type of sign. We have markings on the road itself such as "Slow", "30 Mph", "School", signs on the side of the road saying the same and also the actual speed limits signs. I would suspect that if someone didn't notice those then they shouldn't be driving in the first place! The signage in Alberta is quite different. You will find only lane markers painted on our roads as anything else painted on them would often be covered by snow in winter. There is a town near me (300 km is close around here) where one approaches a school zone at 100 km/h and the warning sign for 30 km/h and the school zone sign are on the same post. As Madalch says it is quite easy to be doing 70 km/h over the speed limit if you don't know the school is there and you miss the first sign.

16th August 2007, 10:48 AM	#28
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,701	Originally Posted by casebro I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle. I remember hearing a particularly annoying radio personality (Danny Finkelman, for those of you who listen to CBC) complain about how unfair this would be- he couldn't afford -anything-, not even a hamburger, if the cost was pegged to his income (for Finkelman, this kind of statement passes for logic). He utterly missed the point that you're not buying anything when you pay a speeding ticket, you're being punished for breaking the law. People should be punished equally, and a $500 fine is a much more severe punishment for someone making minimum wage than it is for Bill Gates. 0.05% of your income is an equal punishment all round.
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

16th August 2007, 11:19 AM	#29
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	Okay, enact this new rule. Does this mean that if I am unemployeed, I can speed with impunity?
	__________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir

16th August 2007, 12:51 PM	#30
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Madalch Yes you can, in places (like rural Alberta) where schools are located near highways. Highway limit- 100 km/h. School zone- 30 km/h. If you don't notice the sign in time, you're 70 clicks over the limit. Hmmm. So there are idiots out there driving three or more times the legal limit near schools? I think I just changed my mind and now support the death penalty. Using all the creative torture methods known to the Stalinists. $10,000 isn't nearly harsh enough.

16th August 2007, 12:52 PM	#31
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Fitter The signage in Alberta is quite different. You will find only lane markers painted on our roads as anything else painted on them would often be covered by snow in winter. [...] As Madalch says it is quite easy to be doing 70 km/h over the speed limit if you don't know the school is there and you miss the first sign. ... in the snow. Even better. $10,000 isn't enough.

16th August 2007, 12:56 PM	#32
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Zep So we are led to believe. Can any Arnie-staters give us the good oil? Check out here: Quote: Date: June 21, 2007 RIALTO, California -- Six cars were crushed at a Southern California recycling plant Wednesday morning. The cars were impounded during illegal street races in San Bernardino County.

16th August 2007, 01:13 PM	#33
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,424	Originally Posted by drkitten Hmmm. So there are idiots out there driving three or more times the legal limit near schools? I think I just changed my mind and now support the death penalty. Using all the creative torture methods known to the Stalinists. $10,000 isn't nearly harsh enough. Good, so you think how much should the penalty be for missing a street sign? $20,000 $50,000 $100,000?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

16th August 2007, 03:25 PM	#34
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,257	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Good, so you think how much should the penalty be for missing a street sign? $20,000 $50,000 $100,000? flash back to high school I never miss a street sigh. I go slow enough that the Miller Pony bottle I throw at it always hits it. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

17th August 2007, 12:56 PM	#35
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Good, so you think how much should the penalty be for missing a street sign? $20,000 $50,000 $100,000? If by missing a street sign you expose multiple people (children, in particular) to significant risk of death due to your own willful behavior?.... Hmm. I suggest "attempted homicide." That's, what, twenty-five years? I believe that Canada also recognizes "negligent endangerment of a child" as a criminal offence, although I can't find the statute that defines the penalties. One count per child enrolled, of course.

17th August 2007, 12:58 PM	#36
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,424	Originally Posted by drkitten If by missing a street sign you expose multiple people (children, in particular) to significant risk of death due to your own willful behavior?.... Hmm. I suggest "attempted homicide." That's, what, twenty-five years? I believe that Canada also recognizes "negligent endangerment of a child" as a criminal offence, although I can't find the statute that defines the penalties. One count per child enrolled, of course. So you do think that missing one speed limit sign should now result in jail time? I guess you don't drive.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin