David Blaine's Stunts, Are they just Tricks?

[Daryl17]

Im a big fan of Blaine considering he was the first magician I saw, even though he pretty much built a career on a charisma, an interesting character, some simple double lift tricks and gimmicks.

Anyway on to my point, does anyone know with any degree of certainty if his 44 day fast was legitimate? I only ask this because I remember watching a programme about it on ITV1 over here in the UK, which alleged it was faked and there was a guy dressed like Blaine hanging around in the closed off quarters. They proved this with video footage. This guy had the exact same skin tone, hair colour, shirt and trousers. The programme was called Tonight with Trevor McDonald.

I remember also hearing about his frozen in time stunt which was alleged to have been faked with a trap door, is there any substance to this or is it all just speculation?

Daz

[Azrael 5]

I think its mostly speculation.
I doubt he fasted for 44 days isn't it dangerous?

Maybe others know more..

[DJM]

When magicians do stunts, there's usually a trick behind it. So I wouldn't be much surprised if that's the same with Blaine.

[DJM]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

I doubt he fasted for 44 days isn't it dangerous?

Britney, is that you?

[Senex]

I have no more insight into these effects than what I was shown on TV. I believe that David Blaine did go on a 44 day fast, stayed in that ice cube as long as people watched, stayed under the NYC sidewalk as long as he showed, stayed in that fishbowl as long as he was expected, and stood legitimally at the top of the tower days before jumping off.

Having said that I believe he uses camera tricks for other illusions that makes him no more impressive than Chris Angel or Daren Browne on his television specials.

[DJM]

His name is Derren Brown, and he rarely uses camera tricks to acheive his effects.

Most of the stuff Blaine did on his his street magic specials was done without camera tricks. Except for the levitation of course.

[jsfisher]

Originally Posted by DJM

Most of the stuff Blaine did on his his street magic specials was done without camera tricks. Except for the levitation of course.

That would depend on your definition of "camera tricks." Restrictions in camera angle should be counted no differently than what a live audience would see, so I'd consider Blaine's levitation as free of camera tricks. On the other hand, Blaine has a large number of "out-takes" on some of his other tricks, and that I consider the camera equivalent of quote-mining.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by DJM

His name is Derren Brown, and he rarely uses camera tricks to acheive his effects.

Most of the stuff Blaine did on his his street magic specials was done without camera tricks. Except for the levitation of course.

Well, we have different opinions. Derren Brown just started a special on my local cable TV. I can pick on everyone of his effects but I will start with this one. Derren picks a guy off the street to do this trick to. Derren makes a prediction how much money this guy has in his wallet and puts the prediction in an envelope and hands the envelope to the guy. This particular guy has just come back from Europe and has to very roughly estimate Euros to dollars to decide what his total amount is. Brown is only one dollar off his guess. Unless Brown has become god he or someone else needed to hold that envelope for a moment after the victim stated what he decided was the right amount after looking at his wallet contents. The camera did not show that moment. It's a camera trick because part of the necessary moment to make that trick work was not on view.

I can explain more Brown effects than I can not. Try me

[DJM]

Originally Posted by jsfisher

That would depend on your definition of "camera tricks." Restrictions in camera angle should be counted no differently than what a live audience would see, so I'd consider Blaine's levitation as free of camera tricks.

Actually he did use a camera trick during his big levitation, when he added the reactions of people who were filmed during a different effect. So it was more than just an angle thing.

Originally Posted by Senex

Unless Brown has become god he or someone else needed to hold that envelope for a moment after the victim stated what he decided was the right amount after looking at his wallet contents. The camera did not show that moment. It's a camera trick because part of the necessary moment to make that trick work was not on view.

I can explain more Brown effects than I can not. Try me

I don't know if god, but he was doing something similar during his prevoius stage shows. He would let a random person from the audience pick an animal/country. Then he would bring that person on stage to open an envelope that no one had touched before. And the correct word is written there.

Not sure if it's the exact same secret, but looks like it's possible to do something like that without touching the envelope.

Next try?

[MelBrooksfan]

Picking an animal or a country would subject to the same biases and statistics most mentalism tricks are. How much money a person has in his wallet is not. Next.


As for David Blaine, I surely hope his physical stunts are real. If they're magic tricks, they're excruciatingly lousy in presentation. They'd come off as more of a practical joke for him to spring years down the line. "You know all that crazy stuff I did? All tricks, guys." If they're magic tricks, they're godawful ones.

[DJM]

Oh, is that so? What if he's correct 100% of the times during the stage shows? What if a woman chose Africa one time, which is not even a country. Is that part of the statistics ? Or maybe he's psychic?

Next.

[Azrael 5]

Blaine uses edits as much as Criss Angel! His levitation was two different performances edited to look like one.The people on the street weren't reacting to the levitation we saw on TV.
Name of person written on taxi cab.Card in basketball.The list goes on.

As for Derren;he doesn't use camera tricks whatsoever.He is a very clever magician and practices dual reality effects,which meay seem like something like a camera trick or edit is going on.

He's so lucky,he's a star!

[Senex]

Originally Posted by MelBrooksfan

Picking an animal or a country would subject to the same biases and statistics most mentalism tricks are. How much money a person has in his wallet is not. Next.

If you are suggesting Brown ascertained the amount of money the guy had in his wallet before handing him the enveolpe you are mistaken. The guy had most of his money in Euros and wasn't certain what the current exchange rate was. He was pulling exchange rate numbers out of thin air and estimating on camera. No way anyone could predict what this guy would estimate his holdings in dollars were before the guy blurted out his best estimate on camera. The guy was hemming and hawing just before stating his best guess. The dollar amount in his wallet was arbitrarily decided on camera!What is written in that envelope must have been written after the guy decided what dollar amount was in his wallet. Unless Brown has a technique that allows him to write on paper in an envelope held
by someone else, he or someone else in on it must have touched that envelope.

[AgeGap]

There must be ways to do so without astral projection. Looking over someones shoulder at a cash machine or shop or pickpocketing or asking them for change of high value note. All done prior to TV cameras rolling.
Anyone seen the card trick with Jonathan Ross and missus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiDIXoIAkcg

[volatile]

I remember reading a suggestion that Blaine's water for the fast stunt was never tested, so it might well have had nutrients in there.

[JonWhite]

Originally Posted by AgeGap

There must be ways to do so without astral projection. Looking over someones shoulder at a cash machine or shop or pickpocketing or asking them for change of high value note. All done prior to TV cameras rolling.
Anyone seen the card trick with Jonathan Ross and missus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiDIXoIAkcg

Brown discusses the use of pickpocketing in "Absolute Magic".

The Ross trick is very cool, thanks for the link. I've been looking at a DVD for an effect called "Blind Luck" that's kind'a similar...

No idea if Blaine really did fast for 44 days or not. Having passed by him in his box a couple of times I thought that the great British response (hurling fruit and insults) was far more entertaining anyway.

[DJM]

Originally Posted by Senex

What is written in that envelope must have been written after the guy decided what dollar amount was in his wallet.

Ding, Ding, ding.. you get a cookie!

The method you are talking about doesn't even make sense in this situation.. it would never make sense for Derren to take back the envelope after the person already says how much money he got, and then make the misdirection. The misdrection should happen while everything is happening, after that it would be way too late.

And like I said, Derren does something similar at his stage shows WITHOUT touching the envelope.

Just because you don't know how things are done, doesn't mean it's always camera tricks.

[MWare]

Originally Posted by Senex

Unless Brown has become god

Or he is a world-renowned master of his craft. That could be a possibility too, no?

[Senex]

Originally Posted by DJM

Ding, Ding, ding.. you get a cookie!

The method you are talking about doesn't even make sense in this situation.. it would never make sense for Derren to take back the evvelope after the person already says how much money he got, and then make the misdirection. The misdrection should happen while everything is happening, after that it would be way too late.

And like I said, Derren does something similiar at his stage shows WITHOUT touching the envelope.

Just because you don't know how things are done, doesn't mean it's always camera tricks.

Ding Ding Ding yourself


As I watched this on TV I instantly realized he shouldn't have chosen this particular clip to air. Because the spectator chose the final amount in such an arbitrary manner at the last moment it precludes people like yourself from granting Brown any other superhuman method than finding a way to write on that paper the number the guy spit out of his mouth after he decided. It had to be done post spitting out of his mouth because the spectator himself seemed to not settle on a figure until the second he said it.

I won't reveal any methods -- but there are standard methods of writing through an envelope. It does of course rely on you touching the envelope, however quickly. Brown set the groundwork by writing his prediction behind his back or terribly quickly (I can't remember which) to explain the messy prediction that came out of that envelope.

Nothing I saw in that US special was done the way he described he did it. He used standard psychic methods I have access to. He did this bulloney of having a couple of advertisement guys take a taxi ride to a location in which he predicted their lousy add campaign he asked them to develop. It was your standard prediction in an envelope routine yet he went to great lengths to make the simple-minded audience members (none I hope are here ) think it was because he sent subliminal messages on street corners and balloons on the cab ride over.

It's insulting to my intelligence but obviously not to yours. Enjoy him.

[Azrael 5]

John White I have Blind Luck DVD it's kind of similiar but not the same.I knew how to do the Ross trick at the time I'll have another look now!

[DJM]

Senex, there is a method of making a number appear on paper without touching it. Derren did that same effect on his British show, and same results. You don't need to touch anything for that to happen. How do you explain that he did something like that at his stage shows? They used camera tricks there too?

God, it's like talking to a wall.

[Senex]

If you are saying I can hold a manilla envelope in my hand that has a piece of paper inside and someone can write whatever I state after I've taken possession of the envelope, I would say you are naive or I'm not up on the latest technology.

This would have legal ramifications -- Psychics will start negotiating deals and use this method to add clauses to the dupe sitting in front of him who thought his lawyer went over the document when in fact clauses are being added just as he clicks his pen

[JonWhite]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

John White I have Blind Luck DVD it's kind of similiar but not the same.I knew how to do the Ross trick at the time I'll have another look now!

I'd be interested to know your thoughts - I'm on the hunt for a card prediction effect to tag "Farsight" after. From what I've read Blind Luck might fit the bill. I assume it (and the DB version?) are R & S based effects?

Thanks.

[MelBrooksfan]

[quote=DJM;2876947]Oh, is that so? What if he's correct 100% of the times during the stage shows?[/quotes]

Is he correct 100% of the time during his stage shows?

Quote:

What if a woman chose Africa one time, which is not even a country.

Then he could easily turn it into any number of quip's I'm sure he's memorized in the event of a miss.

Quote:

Is that part of the statistics ? Or maybe he's psychic?

Next.

Do you not understand how it works?

It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. It's been in chain mail for years. Think of a vegetable and keep the first one you think of in your head.

Odds are: you thought carrot. See? I'm sure the same principle applies to countries and, quite likely, to animals. Though, given the company of people I'm in, I'm sure efforts have been made to keep it from popping into their heads first.

[DJM]

Originally Posted by Senex

If you are saying I can hold a manilla envelope in my hand that has a piece of paper inside and someone can write whatever I state after I've taken possession of the envelope, I would say you are naive or I'm not up on the latest technology.

This would have legal ramifications -- Psychics will start negotiating deals and use this method to add clauses to the dupe sitting in front of him who thought his lawyer went over the document when in fact clauses are being added just as he clicks his pen

http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=1156

The Effect
Before anything is said, the magician hands an envelope to the audience. AFTER this has happened, three specatators each choose a four digit number. Next, each of the spectators freely call out digits from their number in any order, to create a random addition problem. After the digits are added, the envelope with the prediction inside is opened...the number is right every time!
The audience choices are free and fair, making the effect clean and direct, and allowing you to keep your focus on the presentation.

I've seen a demo of a different effect with the same kind of idea. So maybe it means that you don't actually know everything as you want us to believe.

[DJM]

MelBrooksFan, almost all the effects on his stage shows are fool proof. There are many countries in the world, and almost every person would think of something else.. It's much different than chosing a vegetable.

[Azrael 5]

Originally Posted by JonWhite

I'd be interested to know your thoughts - I'm on the hunt for a card prediction effect to tag "Farsight" after. From what I've read Blind Luck might fit the bill. I assume it (and the DB version?) are R & S based effects?

Thanks.

What is farsight? Also DB's is r&s but Blind Luck isn't!

[Senex]

Originally Posted by DJM

http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=1156

The Effect
Before anything is said, the magician hands an envelope to the audience. AFTER this has happened, three specatators each choose a four digit number. Next, each of the spectators freely call out digits from their number in any order, to create a random addition problem. After the digits are added, the envelope with the prediction inside is opened...the number is right every time!
The audience choices are free and fair, making the effect clean and direct, and allowing you to keep your focus on the presentation.

I've seen a demo of a different effect with the same kind of idea. So maybe it means that you don't actually know everything as you want us to believe.

DJM,

OK, you are a fan and not knowledgable about this field. I haven't performed in public for twenty years until I performed at a woo Beltaine festival this May. I did the very trick you described for over a hundred people. (I learned it off an excellent Banachek video).

Think about it -- your trick requires three spectators and someone to do the addition. Brown's effect was "I'll tell you how much money you have on you." Which trick is more impressive?

I could do Brown's effect one-on-one (if I bought some gear), but what I did would not stand up to the scrutiny of video. Brown doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of video either because of clever editing.

I'm no longer enjoying this conversation and I will bail. We must agree to disagree. No hard feelings DJM

[JonWhite]

Far Sight: http://www.alakazam.co.uk/acatalog/info_331.html

[DJM]

Originally Posted by Senex

DJM,

OK, you are a fan and not knowledgable about this field. I haven't performed in public for twenty years until I performed at a woo Beltaine festival this May. I did the very trick you described for over a hundred people. (I learned it off an excellent Banachek video).

If you are so knowledgeable about this field, can you tell us how Derren can predict the name of countries and animals without touching an envelope on stage? There are usually cameras there, but it doesn't help much when it's live.

And again, I saw a demo where you choose a random number without adding anything, and it appears on paper without touching. Too bad I forgot where I saw it.

No hard feelings at all.

[Azrael 5]

I think it falls into visual compromise.WHy Derren succumbs to such editing when he is perfectly capable of baffling people on stage is a mystery.Maybe it makes him seem more amazing.

[firecoins]

Originally Posted by DJM

Most of the stuff Blaine did on his his street magic specials was done without camera tricks. Except for the levitation of course.

This is wrong. Whole parts of tricks are edited out to make them seem more direct.

[firecoins]

Originally Posted by DJM

If you are so knowledgeable about this field, can you tell us how Derren can predict the name of countries and animals without touching an envelope on stage? There are usually cameras there, but it doesn't help much when it's live.

And again, I saw a demo where you choose a random number without adding anything, and it appears on paper without touching. Too bad I forgot where I saw it.

No hard feelings at all.

All magicians on TV use camera effects because they can. The ability to fool in person does not mean it will work for TV either. Magic is about directing attention on what you want. The TV show audience is at home, not on the street or a theater. So you use the cameras to direct attention. This audience is going to see only the versions of the effects that work with any slow areas of the trick edited out. Its done all the time.

[Azrael 5]

Originally Posted by firecoins

All magicians on TV use camera effects because they can. The ability to fool in person does not mean it will work for TV either. Magic is about directing attention on what you want. The TV show audience is at home, not on the street or a theater. So you use the cameras to direct attention. This audience is going to see only the versions of the effects that work with any slow areas of the trick edited out. Its done all the time.

Maybe they do now! But Paul Daniels and his ilk never did.It's an American thing It seems.Copperfield started it I guess.

[T'ai Chi]

What I am always amused by is people saying 'oh that magician is using tricks, but this other magician would never resort to that kind of stuff'.

Looks like they've got fooled by the biggest trick of them all.

[DJM]

Mr. Chi, all magicians are using tricks. That's their job.

[Azrael 5]

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

What I am always amused by is people saying 'oh that magician is using tricks, but this other magician would never resort to that kind of stuff'.

Looks like they've got fooled by the biggest trick of them all.

Dunno if you were referring to my post but I will state my life that Paul Daniels never used camera tricks/edits in any of his effects.

[greymatters]

TV magicians all used to follow what are known as the "Mark Wilson rules":

1. Always have a live audience
2. Never have the camera cut away during a trick.
3. Let viewers know that they see exactly what the studio audience sees.

Also, when you went to see these magicians live, it helped that they were doing exactly the same routines (among others you hadn't seen, of course).

It's sad to see these rules thrown away by the likes of Blaine, Angel and Brown.

[DJM]

David Copperfield was using many stooges during his TV specials, but no one is complaining about that. I'd rather have a few edits on Derren's show to improve the effect, rather than having fake reactions from an actor.

Senex mentioned earlier that Derren used edits with the advertisement guys. But they were fooled exactly the same way the people at home were, which is the whole point. When those guys finally got to watch that episode, they most likely experienced exactly what the rest of the viewers did and thought it was all real and that they did see those things during the taxi ride.

So I don't see any problem with that when it's done in a clever way. Much better than those stage mentalists who use stooges to "read their minds."

[firecoins]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

Maybe they do now! But Paul Daniels and his ilk never did.It's an American thing It seems.Copperfield started it I guess.

ok not "all" magicians. Ill refrain from talking about Paul Daniels because his shows have never aired in the US and I have never seen them.

I have not seen many magic shows outside of American ones. I don't quite understand how it can be attributed to a nationality. Copperfield was a superstar of magic. I think that played apart not the nationality.