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The Atheist · 17th August 2007, 02:02 AM

Somewhere on the axis of intelligence vs religion lies another graph - religion vs poverty.

I guess it's easy to swallow the sky-daddy stuff when you're at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, but it saddens me that the people least able to afford to tithe to a church are the ones who spend the most money doing just that.

I have a classic example just 2 km down the road from my house. We're fortunate not to live in this particular part of Auckland:

In New Zealand parlance, these are "state houses"; low-cost, low-rent housing provided by the government for people who are deservingly poor. The street which this one is in is made up entirely of this type of dwelling. The one in the picture is a block of four units. [I think, bit hard to tell for sure]

What do we have directly opposite this unlovely monument to New Zealand poverty?

No, not a low-cost shopping centre, nor a block of modern units, and definitely not a free community centre. Yes, it's a mega-church.

The congregation will come almost exclusively from the housing project across the road - the lowest-decile area in New Zealand. The congregation will also be close to 100% Polynesian people, as almost all of these Kiwi-style mega-churches are.

Evangelical churches have a horror record of fleecing the vulnerable in this country - Benny Hinn sucked about 4 mio out during one Auckland "show" recently and even Pacific Islanders will relate stories of crass spending by pastors.

How on earth do we tackle the kind of ignorance which allows this to happen? The congregation are mostly naive types who work in lowly-paid manual occupations and they bleed themselves dry keeping their pastors in SUVs and beach houses. Even burning the churches down wouldn't work, because it would be the poor suckers putting their hands in their pockets to rebuild it.

I look at it, shake my head and accept that this is a battle which is lost before it starts. Because religion is subject to no accountability for performance or action, there's nothing to stop these charlatans preying on the weakest link.

Is there a battle to be fought here, or am I right and it's a lost cause?

This Guy · 17th August 2007, 04:57 AM

I suspect that other than perhaps, some door to door atheist evangelizing, there isn't much to be done to stop it.

I suspect most of your statements/predictions are true. And I agree that it is sad.

tsg · 17th August 2007, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Somewhere on the axis of intelligence vs religion lies another graph - religion vs poverty.

I guess it's easy to swallow the sky-daddy stuff when you're at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, but it saddens me that the people least able to afford to tithe to a church are the ones who spend the most money doing just that.

They also tend to buy the most lottery tickets.

The Atheist · 17th August 2007, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by tsg

They also tend to buy the most lottery tickets.

Yep, and that area also has the highest person/slot machine ratio in the country.

The Atheist · 17th August 2007, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by This Guy

I suspect that other than perhaps, some door to door atheist evangelizing, there isn't much to be done to stop it.

That's actually a very bad option. The residents are almost all Samoan or Tongan and they combine a very proprietorial attitude to their religion and god with large physical stature and very short fuses.

If you're keen to explain to a couple of dozen 120-kg Tongan blokes why their god's a load of rubbish, I could sell a lot of tickets to it!

This Guy · 17th August 2007, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

That's actually a very bad option. The residents are almost all Samoan or Tongan and they combine a very proprietorial attitude to their religion and god with large physical stature and very short fuses.

If you're keen to explain to a couple of dozen 120-kg Tongan blokes why their god's a load of rubbish, I could sell a lot of tickets to it!

hehe wouldn't be much of a show I'm afraid. I'd probably last only a few seconds

I didn't think anyone would try the door to door atheist idea, and didn't mean it as a serious solution

The Atheist · 17th August 2007, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by This Guy

I didn't think anyone would try the door to door atheist idea, and didn't mean it as a serious solution

I know. I've always wondered how it would turn out if we tried the JW tactic of door-to-door selling.

Rather badly, I expect.

joobz · 17th August 2007, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by This Guy

hehe wouldn't be much of a show I'm afraid. I'd probably last only a few seconds

I didn't think anyone would try the door to door atheist idea, and didn't mean it as a serious solution

[Ding Dong]
Homeowner(HO): Yes?
Atheist(A): Hello, I would like to talk to you about nothing.
HO: what?
A: yes, I would like for the chance to bring nothing into your heart.
HO: is this a joke?
A: No, I'm very serious. I think the moment you started to really open up to and started believing in nothing...
HO: That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
A: If I was to tell you that there was something that let bad things happen, wouldn't you think that that something a jerk?
HO: Who are you with?
A: I'm with nobody. I'm a nothing's witness.
HO: I'm going to punch you now.

Dunstan · 17th August 2007, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by joobz

[Ding Dong]
Homeowner(HO): Yes?
Atheist(A): Hello, I would like to talk to you about nothing.
HO: what?
A: yes, I would like for the chance to bring nothing into your heart.
HO: is this a joke?
A: No, I'm very serious. I think the moment you started to really open up to and started believing in nothing...
HO: That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
A: If I was to tell you that there was something that let bad things happen, wouldn't you think that that something a jerk?
HO: Who are you with?
A: I'm with nobody. I'm a nothing's witness.
HO: I'm going to punch you now.

Somewhere on YouTube there's a video of some atheists going door-to-door in Salt Lake City to proselytize atheism. It was less funny than your post, which is why I can't be bothered to look for it.

On the other hand, look up Captain Awesome's video of preaching the gospel of the FSM on a college campus, because it's rather amusing, especially when some fellow pastafarians start giving him support.

17th August 2007, 02:02 AM	#1
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Evangelical Churches and Poverty Somewhere on the axis of intelligence vs religion lies another graph - religion vs poverty. I guess it's easy to swallow the sky-daddy stuff when you're at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, but it saddens me that the people least able to afford to tithe to a church are the ones who spend the most money doing just that. I have a classic example just 2 km down the road from my house. We're fortunate not to live in this particular part of Auckland: In New Zealand parlance, these are "state houses"; low-cost, low-rent housing provided by the government for people who are deservingly poor. The street which this one is in is made up entirely of this type of dwelling. The one in the picture is a block of four units. [I think, bit hard to tell for sure] What do we have directly opposite this unlovely monument to New Zealand poverty? No, not a low-cost shopping centre, nor a block of modern units, and definitely not a free community centre. Yes, it's a mega-church. The congregation will come almost exclusively from the housing project across the road - the lowest-decile area in New Zealand. The congregation will also be close to 100% Polynesian people, as almost all of these Kiwi-style mega-churches are. Evangelical churches have a horror record of fleecing the vulnerable in this country - Benny Hinn sucked about 4 mio out during one Auckland "show" recently and even Pacific Islanders will relate stories of crass spending by pastors. How on earth do we tackle the kind of ignorance which allows this to happen? The congregation are mostly naive types who work in lowly-paid manual occupations and they bleed themselves dry keeping their pastors in SUVs and beach houses. Even burning the churches down wouldn't work, because it would be the poor suckers putting their hands in their pockets to rebuild it. I look at it, shake my head and accept that this is a battle which is lost before it starts. Because religion is subject to no accountability for performance or action, there's nothing to stop these charlatans preying on the weakest link. Is there a battle to be fought here, or am I right and it's a lost cause?
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

17th August 2007, 04:57 AM	#2
This Guy Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: On the corner of WALK and DON'T WALK Posts: 2,000	I suspect that other than perhaps, some door to door atheist evangelizing, there isn't much to be done to stop it. I suspect most of your statements/predictions are true. And I agree that it is sad.
	__________________ I'm lost. I've gone to find me. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait!

17th August 2007, 09:22 AM	#3
tsg Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Location: Location: Posts: 6,771	Originally Posted by The Atheist Somewhere on the axis of intelligence vs religion lies another graph - religion vs poverty. I guess it's easy to swallow the sky-daddy stuff when you're at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, but it saddens me that the people least able to afford to tithe to a church are the ones who spend the most money doing just that. They also tend to buy the most lottery tickets.
	__________________ Being offended by someone questioning your beliefs is a sign that you should be questioning them. In the beginning there was nothing. And the Lord said "Let There Be Light!" And still there was nothing, but at least now you could see it.

17th August 2007, 12:37 PM	#4
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by tsg They also tend to buy the most lottery tickets. Yep, and that area also has the highest person/slot machine ratio in the country.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

17th August 2007, 12:40 PM	#5
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by This Guy I suspect that other than perhaps, some door to door atheist evangelizing, there isn't much to be done to stop it. That's actually a very bad option. The residents are almost all Samoan or Tongan and they combine a very proprietorial attitude to their religion and god with large physical stature and very short fuses. If you're keen to explain to a couple of dozen 120-kg Tongan blokes why their god's a load of rubbish, I could sell a lot of tickets to it!
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

17th August 2007, 12:49 PM	#6
This Guy Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: On the corner of WALK and DON'T WALK Posts: 2,000	Originally Posted by The Atheist That's actually a very bad option. The residents are almost all Samoan or Tongan and they combine a very proprietorial attitude to their religion and god with large physical stature and very short fuses. If you're keen to explain to a couple of dozen 120-kg Tongan blokes why their god's a load of rubbish, I could sell a lot of tickets to it! hehe wouldn't be much of a show I'm afraid. I'd probably last only a few seconds I didn't think anyone would try the door to door atheist idea, and didn't mean it as a serious solution
	__________________ I'm lost. I've gone to find me. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait!

17th August 2007, 01:02 PM	#7
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by This Guy I didn't think anyone would try the door to door atheist idea, and didn't mean it as a serious solution I know. I've always wondered how it would turn out if we tried the JW tactic of door-to-door selling. Rather badly, I expect.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

17th August 2007, 01:03 PM	#8
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,588	Originally Posted by This Guy hehe wouldn't be much of a show I'm afraid. I'd probably last only a few seconds I didn't think anyone would try the door to door atheist idea, and didn't mean it as a serious solution [Ding Dong] Homeowner(HO): Yes? Atheist(A): Hello, I would like to talk to you about nothing. HO: what? A: yes, I would like for the chance to bring nothing into your heart. HO: is this a joke? A: No, I'm very serious. I think the moment you started to really open up to and started believing in nothing... HO: That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. A: If I was to tell you that there was something that let bad things happen, wouldn't you think that that something a jerk? HO: Who are you with? A: I'm with nobody. I'm a nothing's witness. HO: I'm going to punch you now.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

17th August 2007, 04:18 PM	#9
Dunstan Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sunnyvale Trailer Park Posts: 4,292	Originally Posted by joobz [Ding Dong] Homeowner(HO): Yes? Atheist(A): Hello, I would like to talk to you about nothing. HO: what? A: yes, I would like for the chance to bring nothing into your heart. HO: is this a joke? A: No, I'm very serious. I think the moment you started to really open up to and started believing in nothing... HO: That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. A: If I was to tell you that there was something that let bad things happen, wouldn't you think that that something a jerk? HO: Who are you with? A: I'm with nobody. I'm a nothing's witness. HO: I'm going to punch you now. Somewhere on YouTube there's a video of some atheists going door-to-door in Salt Lake City to proselytize atheism. It was less funny than your post, which is why I can't be bothered to look for it. On the other hand, look up Captain Awesome's video of preaching the gospel of the FSM on a college campus, because it's rather amusing, especially when some fellow pastafarians start giving him support.