Business and Civility

The Atheist · 18th August 2007, 05:39 PM

Just before the Business section opened, I made the comment that I expected it to be the most civil of all the forums here. Early posts and discussions bear this out so far.

People in business usually display good etiquette - otherwise they fail miserably - and I really do expect Business to be the forum requiring the lowest rate of moderation.

Given that none of us [should] have any personal agendas to promote, I can't see why it won't be like that. Maybe we could attempt to set a standard for the other forums? Maybe I could try to apply some of the rules I work by to other forums as well - that being a means of cutting incivility by 48.37%.

Carnivore · 18th August 2007, 06:02 PM

I spit on your etiquette! Your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries!

Incivility now up 1.4 %. looks like my investments are safe for now!

Wolfman · 18th August 2007, 09:55 PM

Well, for the most part, business tends to be less personal, more pragmatic. And an awful lot of these discussions would seem boring or pointless to a significant number of people here, I'm sure.

So yeah, we'll still have our outbreaks of incivility, but I would expect this to be one of the easiest forums to moderate overall. (Although it should be noted that one mod action has already been necessary, when a rather pointless post about making commercials to show Jews crying over piles of money would solve the problem of national debt was removed to AAH)

rjh01 · 18th August 2007, 10:58 PM

I agree with Wolfman. Not many people have ideas on the subject they insist are the only answers and any other answer is a personal criticism.

TriangleMan · 19th August 2007, 12:54 AM

I also think that because in business, unlike sciences, wacky ideas can lead to big successes. This makes business people less likely to be outright dismissive of any ideas outside the norm, a source of many moderation problems in other forums.

(exception: I do expect the occasional thread from doomsayers going on about how the world economy is going to collapse any minute now, we'll all be living in burned out buildings, blah, blah, blah)

Wolfman · 19th August 2007, 01:07 AM

Well...to be fair...

...if someone came in here and started pitching a "business idea" of selling water that had been "charged with positive energy by singing to it", and asking for advice, or partners, or investors...I rather suspect that at least some of the responses would not be all that "civil"

The Atheist · 19th August 2007, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Well, for the most part, business tends to be less personal, more pragmatic. And an awful lot of these discussions would seem boring or pointless to a significant number of people here, I'm sure.

Yep, exactly that.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

(Although it should be noted that one mod action has already been necessary, when a rather pointless post about making commercials to show Jews crying over piles of money would solve the problem of national debt was removed to AAH)

Yeah, I saw that - surely just a CT poster in the wrong place. Good to see it being disallowed as subject matter; there are sufficient forums for the village idiots to post in, aren't there?

Originally Posted by TriangleMan

I also think that because in business, unlike sciences, wacky ideas can lead to big successes. This makes business people less likely to be outright dismissive of any ideas outside the norm, a source of many moderation problems in other forums.

Yeah, anyone remember those guys who wanted to build a better search engine? How are they going to make money out a search engine?

Originally Posted by TriangleMan

(exception: I do expect the occasional thread from doomsayers going on about how the world economy is going to collapse any minute now, we'll all be living in burned out buildings, blah, blah, blah)

Ah, but I think there's a difference with finances. If someone thinks the world's going to end because of Scenario A, B or C, it's pretty straightforward to prove one way or the other. And if it's out and out CT, then it can go to the CT forum.

Some of the smartest minds on Wall St are currently warning of doom - and that's pretty standard, you'd be worried if bulls were unanimous - so it's always a worthwhile topic to discuss. I've never yet met a doomsayer who wasn't able to give reasoning for his predictions. Some of them even turned out to be right. In 1987, there were a very few who publicly warned of the likelihood of a crash. I sure didn't listen to them!

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Well...to be fair...

...if someone came in here and started pitching a "business idea" of selling water that had been "charged with positive energy by singing to it", and asking for advice, or partners, or investors...I rather suspect that at least some of the responses would not be all that "civil"

The Atheist · 19th August 2007, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Well...to be fair...

...if someone came in here and started pitching a "business idea" of selling water that had been "charged with positive energy by singing to it", and asking for advice, or partners, or investors...I rather suspect that at least some of the responses would not be all that "civil"

Nah. I look forward to that. At last count I had 4312 Africans who have $US10M+ to invest, so I'll just forward the e mails and they can sort it out together.

Wolfman · 19th August 2007, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

At last count I had 4312 Africans who have $US10M+ to invest

Be careful; I've heard that some of those guys can't be trusted.

Foolmewunz · 19th August 2007, 03:45 AM

The thing about civility in business is that, for the most part, it's an email and phone conversation world, nowadays. You don't know the person on the other side very well, and you're only engaging with them for one reason - to get something accomplished for your firms, collectively.

With that in mind, and following the old flies/honey/vinegar axiom, it's fairly rare that you would reduce a discussion to expletives or insults.

"What the **** do you mean 8.88 a dozen, with a minimum order of 700 dozen??!!! Are you smoking crack? Your mama must've spent too much time sleeping with aardvarks if you think I'm buying your worthless **** for that kind of *********** extortion!"

The good knock-down drag-out fights I get to have are internal. We've got close to 50,000 people worldwide, and they're all classic capitalist middlemen trying to protect their patch of profits. That I can deal with, although it gets a little rancorous sometimes. It's the politicians who erect barriers for the fun of it who I declare open season on!

TriangleMan · 19th August 2007, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Well...to be fair...

...if someone came in here and started pitching a "business idea" of selling water that had been "charged with positive energy by singing to it", and asking for advice, or partners, or investors...I rather suspect that at least some of the responses would not be all that "civil"

Ah but such a venture could, and has, made excellent profits. Posters here would definately question the ethics of selling such products with dubious "characteristics", but the idea itself could not be readily dismissed as worthless in terms of being a viable business. Pet Rocks anyone? Head-On?

rjh01 · 19th August 2007, 05:05 AM

Reminds me of my first post here people aren't quite so gullible afterall...

Quote:

How about someone from JREF flood e-bay with fake religious items? Cannot lose. Either
a) Someone from JREF makes a lot of money from <censored> people or
b) People wake up to how stupid religion is and become atheists.

Some of the other posts in that thread are just as good.

What advice do you give someone who wants to do that sort of thing?

Foolmewunz · 19th August 2007, 05:57 AM

In the build-up to establishing this sub-forum we had discussed the possibility that a bunch of spammers would show up with get-rich-quick schemes (see Oakster), but I think this is the perfect place for those folks to show up, rather than the Gen'l Skep/ParaN section.

I'm taking bets that the first who dares to show will get handed his *** on a silver platter.

Solitaire · 19th August 2007, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Wolfman

So yeah, we'll still have our outbreaks of incivility, but I would expect this to be one of the easiest forums to moderate overall.

Rename it Business & Economics, then the balance will be restored.

JonnyFive · 20th August 2007, 05:58 AM

I think part of it might have to do with the fact that there only seem to be about five regular posters in this section so far. We'll see, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Solitaire

Rename it Business & Economics, then the balance will be restored.

Oh great, then we'd siphon off all the nutty "the Federal Reserve is run by the repitallian Illuminati" threads from Conspiracy Theories.

Horatius · 20th August 2007, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by JonnyFive

Oh great, then we'd siphon off all the nutty "the Federal Reserve is run by the repitallian Illuminati" threads from Conspiracy Theories.

And good riddence to them! [/TheRestofCTForum]

JonnyFive · 20th August 2007, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Horatius

And good riddence to them! [/TheRestofCTForum]

Given how 9/11-heavy the CT forum is, I think those threads provide some nice balance.

On the other hand, it would be nice to have a more general economics section, and this would be a logical place for it.

jimbob · 26th August 2007, 09:29 AM

Back to the OP

This is not a rule12 attack, I always have found T.A. civil and interesting, but I have a vague idea that some (often themselves incivil) people seem to think that he is not a paragon of civility.

BTW, I see that your sig has vanished T.A. do you need some more rule8-friendly descriptions?

jim

The Atheist · 26th August 2007, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Back to the OP

This is not a rule12 attack, I always have found T.A. civil and interesting, but I have a vague idea that some (often themselves incivil) people seem to think that he is not a paragon of civility.

Why, thanks! (I do admit to handing it out at times.

)

Originally Posted by jimbob

BTW, I see that your sig has vanished T.A. do you need some more rule8-friendly descriptions?

jim

You're on it - a couple of them breached the new rules of decency, so I've given them up for now. Have to think of something more interesting to put there. I have an idea or two, so keep watching.

Beanbag · 26th August 2007, 03:46 PM

It's nothing personal. It's business.

The wonderful thing about business is that cash has a relatively absolute means of determining success or failure. You make money, you stay in business.

Of course, we're talking The Real World (tm) here, not government or civil service.

Beanbag

madurobob · 21st September 2007, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

The thing about civility in business is that, for the most part, it's an email and phone conversation world, nowadays. You don't know the person on the other side very well, and you're only engaging with them for one reason - to get something accomplished for your firms, collectively.

<snip>

The good knock-down drag-out fights I get to have are internal. We've got close to 50,000 people worldwide, and they're all classic capitalist middlemen trying to protect their patch of profits. That I can deal with, although it gets a little rancorous sometimes. It's the politicians who erect barriers for the fun of it who I declare open season on!

Amen to that. Some of the most profanity laced discussions I've been part of outside of a bar have been with one of the CFOs of the company I work for. And I thought I already knew all the proper uses of **** and ****! But, when we went on a customer call, he was Mr Rogers reincarnated.

IllegalArgument · 21st September 2007, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Be careful; I've heard that some of those guys can't be trusted.

Sad part is that I have a friend in the State Department, he has to explain to people that their money is gone.

He has to do this at least once a week. It's been an amazingly effective scan.

18th August 2007, 05:39 PM	#1
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Business and Civility Just before the Business section opened, I made the comment that I expected it to be the most civil of all the forums here. Early posts and discussions bear this out so far. People in business usually display good etiquette - otherwise they fail miserably - and I really do expect Business to be the forum requiring the lowest rate of moderation. Given that none of us [should] have any personal agendas to promote, I can't see why it won't be like that. Maybe we could attempt to set a standard for the other forums? Maybe I could try to apply some of the rules I work by to other forums as well - that being a means of cutting incivility by 48.37%.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

18th August 2007, 06:02 PM	#2
Carnivore Salad Dodger Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 1,384	I spit on your etiquette! Your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries! Incivility now up 1.4 %. looks like my investments are safe for now!
	__________________ "It's backwards thinking like this that made me leave Manchester. You Guinness swilling, Marmite blaspheming animal." - Malfie Henpox

18th August 2007, 09:55 PM	#3
Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dongguan, China Posts: 11,811	Well, for the most part, business tends to be less personal, more pragmatic. And an awful lot of these discussions would seem boring or pointless to a significant number of people here, I'm sure. So yeah, we'll still have our outbreaks of incivility, but I would expect this to be one of the easiest forums to moderate overall. (Although it should be noted that one mod action has already been necessary, when a rather pointless post about making commercials to show Jews crying over piles of money would solve the problem of national debt was removed to AAH)
	__________________ The Meta-Solipsistic Autosycophant mantra: "I post, therefore I am nominated"

18th August 2007, 10:58 PM	#4
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,197	I agree with Wolfman. Not many people have ideas on the subject they insist are the only answers and any other answer is a personal criticism.
	__________________ dddffffpppqqqq Want to use your computer for something that will make society better? See this thread for details Folding@home

19th August 2007, 01:07 AM	#6
Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dongguan, China Posts: 11,811	Well...to be fair... ...if someone came in here and started pitching a "business idea" of selling water that had been "charged with positive energy by singing to it", and asking for advice, or partners, or investors...I rather suspect that at least some of the responses would not be all that "civil"
	__________________ The Meta-Solipsistic Autosycophant mantra: "I post, therefore I am nominated"

19th August 2007, 12:54 AM	#5
TriangleMan Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Qatar (ya rly!) Posts: 1,208	I also think that because in business, unlike sciences, wacky ideas can lead to big successes. This makes business people less likely to be outright dismissive of any ideas outside the norm, a source of many moderation problems in other forums. (exception: I do expect the occasional thread from doomsayers going on about how the world economy is going to collapse any minute now, we'll all be living in burned out buildings, blah, blah, blah)

19th August 2007, 01:36 AM	#7
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by Wolfman Well, for the most part, business tends to be less personal, more pragmatic. And an awful lot of these discussions would seem boring or pointless to a significant number of people here, I'm sure. Yep, exactly that. Originally Posted by Wolfman (Although it should be noted that one mod action has already been necessary, when a rather pointless post about making commercials to show Jews crying over piles of money would solve the problem of national debt was removed to AAH) Yeah, I saw that - surely just a CT poster in the wrong place. Good to see it being disallowed as subject matter; there are sufficient forums for the village idiots to post in, aren't there? Originally Posted by TriangleMan I also think that because in business, unlike sciences, wacky ideas can lead to big successes. This makes business people less likely to be outright dismissive of any ideas outside the norm, a source of many moderation problems in other forums. Yeah, anyone remember those guys who wanted to build a better search engine? How are they going to make money out a search engine? Originally Posted by TriangleMan (exception: I do expect the occasional thread from doomsayers going on about how the world economy is going to collapse any minute now, we'll all be living in burned out buildings, blah, blah, blah) Ah, but I think there's a difference with finances. If someone thinks the world's going to end because of Scenario A, B or C, it's pretty straightforward to prove one way or the other. And if it's out and out CT, then it can go to the CT forum. Some of the smartest minds on Wall St are currently warning of doom - and that's pretty standard, you'd be worried if bulls were unanimous - so it's always a worthwhile topic to discuss. I've never yet met a doomsayer who wasn't able to give reasoning for his predictions. Some of them even turned out to be right. In 1987, there were a very few who publicly warned of the likelihood of a crash. I sure didn't listen to them! Originally Posted by Wolfman Well...to be fair... ...if someone came in here and started pitching a "business idea" of selling water that had been "charged with positive energy by singing to it", and asking for advice, or partners, or investors...I rather suspect that at least some of the responses would not be all that "civil"
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

19th August 2007, 01:37 AM	#8
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by Wolfman Well...to be fair... ...if someone came in here and started pitching a "business idea" of selling water that had been "charged with positive energy by singing to it", and asking for advice, or partners, or investors...I rather suspect that at least some of the responses would not be all that "civil" Nah. I look forward to that. At last count I had 4312 Africans who have $US10M+ to invest, so I'll just forward the e mails and they can sort it out together.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

19th August 2007, 01:42 AM	#9
Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dongguan, China Posts: 11,811	Originally Posted by The Atheist At last count I had 4312 Africans who have $US10M+ to invest Be careful; I've heard that some of those guys can't be trusted.
	__________________ The Meta-Solipsistic Autosycophant mantra: "I post, therefore I am nominated"

19th August 2007, 03:45 AM	#10
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,523	The thing about civility in business is that, for the most part, it's an email and phone conversation world, nowadays. You don't know the person on the other side very well, and you're only engaging with them for one reason - to get something accomplished for your firms, collectively. With that in mind, and following the old flies/honey/vinegar axiom, it's fairly rare that you would reduce a discussion to expletives or insults. "What the ** do you mean 8.88 a dozen, with a minimum order of 700 dozen??!!! Are you smoking crack? Your mama must've spent too much time sleeping with aardvarks if you think I'm buying your worthless for that kind of ********* extortion!" The good knock-down drag-out fights I get to have are internal. We've got close to 50,000 people worldwide, and they're all classic capitalist middlemen trying to protect their patch of profits. That I can deal with, although it gets a little rancorous sometimes. It's the politicians who erect barriers for the fun of it who I declare open season on!
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]

19th August 2007, 04:57 AM	#11
TriangleMan Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Qatar (ya rly!) Posts: 1,208	Originally Posted by Wolfman Well...to be fair... ...if someone came in here and started pitching a "business idea" of selling water that had been "charged with positive energy by singing to it", and asking for advice, or partners, or investors...I rather suspect that at least some of the responses would not be all that "civil" Ah but such a venture could, and has, made excellent profits. Posters here would definately question the ethics of selling such products with dubious "characteristics", but the idea itself could not be readily dismissed as worthless in terms of being a viable business. Pet Rocks anyone? Head-On?

19th August 2007, 05:05 AM	#12
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,197	Reminds me of my first post here people aren't quite so gullible afterall... Quote: How about someone from JREF flood e-bay with fake religious items? Cannot lose. Either a) Someone from JREF makes a lot of money from <censored> people or b) People wake up to how stupid religion is and become atheists. Some of the other posts in that thread are just as good. What advice do you give someone who wants to do that sort of thing?
	__________________ dddffffpppqqqq Want to use your computer for something that will make society better? See this thread for details Folding@home

19th August 2007, 05:57 AM	#13
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,523	In the build-up to establishing this sub-forum we had discussed the possibility that a bunch of spammers would show up with get-rich-quick schemes (see Oakster), but I think this is the perfect place for those folks to show up, rather than the Gen'l Skep/ParaN section. I'm taking bets that the first who dares to show will get handed his *** on a silver platter.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]

19th August 2007, 06:31 PM	#14
Solitaire Neoclinus blanchardi Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Johnson City, Tennessee Posts: 1,735	Originally Posted by Wolfman So yeah, we'll still have our outbreaks of incivility, but I would expect this to be one of the easiest forums to moderate overall. Rename it Business & Economics, then the balance will be restored.
	__________________ GENERATION ∞: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

20th August 2007, 05:58 AM	#15
JonnyFive Insurance Underwriter of Doom Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,473	I think part of it might have to do with the fact that there only seem to be about five regular posters in this section so far. We'll see, I suppose. Originally Posted by Solitaire Rename it Business & Economics, then the balance will be restored. Oh great, then we'd siphon off all the nutty "the Federal Reserve is run by the repitallian Illuminati" threads from Conspiracy Theories.
	__________________ "If you drink virus water ,i must say ‘don't drink it,it is trap’." -Emre_1974tr Ex-defendant in Simpson v. Randi, et al.

20th August 2007, 09:21 AM	#16
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by JonnyFive Oh great, then we'd siphon off all the nutty "the Federal Reserve is run by the repitallian Illuminati" threads from Conspiracy Theories. And good riddence to them! [/TheRestofCTForum]
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

20th August 2007, 11:24 AM	#17
JonnyFive Insurance Underwriter of Doom Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,473	Originally Posted by Horatius And good riddence to them! [/TheRestofCTForum] Given how 9/11-heavy the CT forum is, I think those threads provide some nice balance. On the other hand, it would be nice to have a more general economics section, and this would be a logical place for it.
	__________________ "If you drink virus water ,i must say ‘don't drink it,it is trap’." -Emre_1974tr Ex-defendant in Simpson v. Randi, et al.

26th August 2007, 09:29 AM	#18
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Derbyshire, UK Posts: 5,166	Back to the OP This is not a rule12 attack, I always have found T.A. civil and interesting, but I have a vague idea that some (often themselves incivil) people seem to think that he is not a paragon of civility. BTW, I see that your sig has vanished T.A. do you need some more rule8-friendly descriptions? jim

26th August 2007, 03:22 PM	#19
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by jimbob Back to the OP This is not a rule12 attack, I always have found T.A. civil and interesting, but I have a vague idea that some (often themselves incivil) people seem to think that he is not a paragon of civility. Why, thanks! (I do admit to handing it out at times. ) Originally Posted by jimbob BTW, I see that your sig has vanished T.A. do you need some more rule8-friendly descriptions? jim You're on it - a couple of them breached the new rules of decency, so I've given them up for now. Have to think of something more interesting to put there. I have an idea or two, so keep watching.

26th August 2007, 03:46 PM	#20
Beanbag Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dallas/Fort Worth Posts: 2,709	It's nothing personal. It's business. The wonderful thing about business is that cash has a relatively absolute means of determining success or failure. You make money, you stay in business. Of course, we're talking The Real World (tm) here, not government or civil service. Beanbag
	__________________ Nothing divides an indivisible nation quite as well as religion. Know god, no peace. No god, know peace. If Jesus is the answer, it must be a real dumb question.

21st September 2007, 06:41 AM	#21
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven, NC Posts: 5,548	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz The thing about civility in business is that, for the most part, it's an email and phone conversation world, nowadays. You don't know the person on the other side very well, and you're only engaging with them for one reason - to get something accomplished for your firms, collectively. <snip> The good knock-down drag-out fights I get to have are internal. We've got close to 50,000 people worldwide, and they're all classic capitalist middlemen trying to protect their patch of profits. That I can deal with, although it gets a little rancorous sometimes. It's the politicians who erect barriers for the fun of it who I declare open season on! Amen to that. Some of the most profanity laced discussions I've been part of outside of a bar have been with one of the CFOs of the company I work for. And I thought I already knew all the proper uses of ** and **! But, when we went on a customer call, he was Mr Rogers reincarnated.
	__________________ Insert witty phrase or out of context post by another member here.

21st September 2007, 06:55 AM	#22
IllegalArgument Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Reston, VA Posts: 1,757	Originally Posted by Wolfman Be careful; I've heard that some of those guys can't be trusted. Sad part is that I have a friend in the State Department, he has to explain to people that their money is gone. He has to do this at least once a week. It's been an amazingly effective scan.
	__________________ Ann Coulter is the Paris Hilton of politics. Sam Harris is the Ann Coulter of atheists. When you get to be my age you realize the wannabecoolself wins when it stops trying to hide the geekself. -- Garrette