Are Republicans trying to make the war more global?

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 10:22 AM

Seriously - does anyone else believe that the current administration and their lackeys are trying to make this war last forever? Has anyone else paused and thought, "Hey - I think they are trying to make this a more global war . . . and will expand it until we are fighting all of the enemies of Isreal."

Obvioiusly it's all about the oil, but isn't it interesting that the largest group that lobbys Congress . . . is Jewish American? I don't want the sum of my existance to be about cleaning up Israel's garbage for them. That's not the team I want to be on, America doesn't have make itself this team . . . we have more important things to do.

I've posted a thread before about the cowardly Ernest Rady. He's just an example. I think I dislike him because he is the epitomy . . . the ultimate Republican. Old, always wearing a dark suit in sunny California . . . bony girl arms with old man stink.

Is our whole society geared around heaping rewards on someone like THAT . . . are our soldiers working for HIM with the ultimate goal to be to put in a puppet prime minister of Israel that we can control so we can suck all the oil from that dry piece of real estate, then bug off to Alaska once it's all gone?

I've heard people on here say, "The war is wrong" and so on, but the global issue I think is pertinent. Stop focusing on who we are currently bombing at the moment.

Are we really going to protect Isreal forever and expand until we are fighting every Arab Nation on Earth? Who decided who was the good guys and who was the bad guys here?

Are we at least going to dump Israel once we score the oil . . . or must we fulfill the obligation forever?

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 10:26 AM

I digressed a little, for that I appologise (before anyone can comment). I just want to focus on the question I posed.

Are Republicans trying to get us . . . fighting every Arab nation?

Darth Rotor · 22nd August 2007, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by JJR

I digressed a little, for that I appologise (before anyone can comment). I just want to focus on the question I posed.

Are Republicans trying to get us . . . fighting every Arab nation?

I note that a non Republican, Joe Lieberman, has in the last few months spoken up supporting a generally hard line rationale for attacking Iran. So too have a number of Hawkish conservative pundits. (Kristol, a bunch of NR contributors, IIRC Krauthammer has been heard from on this score)

I recall VP Cheney mentioning a while back, in a public statement, that "military option is not off the table" in re Iran.

If that is what you are referring to, Iran is not an Arab nation.

If you are referring to similar bellicose discussions in re Syria, then my provisional answer is: yes, there are some people within the Republican bloc who want Syria to be changed, either by force or a variety of other means, with part of the reason being reducing the threat to Israel, and the region in general.

The real fun begins when someone in America figures that it is time to change Saudi Arabia "for their own good."

We may yet live in even more interesting times.

DR

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 10:43 AM

Thank you for answering. I think we are going to end up fighting all the enemies of Isreal . . . which is the entire Middle East.

That's ridiculous. We automatically can't win.

Ziggurat · 22nd August 2007, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by JJR

Obvioiusly it's all about the oil, but isn't it interesting that the largest group that lobbys Congress . . . is Jewish American?

Evidence?

Quote:

Are we really going to protect Isreal forever and expand until we are fighting every Arab Nation on Earth?

I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that we've essentially agreed to protect Japan forever. Oh, that's right: they're not Jews, so it's OK. But suppose we do want to "protect Israel forever" . Why on earth would that require that we fight every arab nation? It wouldn't. If you honestly think that we're getting ready to attack Saudi Arabia, you're even more clueless than you seem.

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 11:02 AM

Israel is the size of San Diego. It's tiny. How are we going to protect a place the size of a city in the middle of a sea of Arabs??

Stupid, man.

Oh, my friend just informed me that Israel is half the size of Florida. Excuse the hell out of me. It's still an island in a sea of angry Arabs.

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Evidence?

I should provide a link . . . but it's true damn it!! Give me a clue as to how I should gather information on lobbyers and I'll give it a google. Keywords would be nice.

I'm not afraid of work and I type at 70wpm.

Quote:

I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that we've essentially agreed to protect Japan forever. Oh, that's right: they're not Jews, so it's OK. But suppose we do want to "protect Israel forever" . Why on earth would that require that we fight every arab nation? It wouldn't. If you honestly think that we're getting ready to attack Saudi Arabia, you're even more clueless than you seem.

Look man I'm not reading from the David Duke Jr.'s propoganda guidebook. If anything, I think the Jews should come here to America. It's part of my religion - I'm supopsed to believe that the new Jersalem will be on the American Continent and that the 10 tribes of Zion will reunite . . . HERE.

There's plenty of room. We've got the boats. Hell, we've got the aeroplanes. Travel first class, man. Have a couple of drinks.

And, yes I think it is possible that . . . in a few years we could attack Saudi Arabia simply because they are an enemy of Israel. The Arabs and the Jews have been fighting since they were monkees . .. they aren't going to get along.

Don't think that I forgot that my thread about all the UFO sightings over Isreal in the "Conspiracy Theories" area was deleted either. That sucks, man. Silly mods.

Ziggurat · 22nd August 2007, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by JJR

Israel is the size of San Diego. It's tiny. How are we going to protect a place the size of a city in the middle of a sea of Arabs??

They haven't been attacked by another state in decades now (after a long period of semi-regular wars). So that problem seems to have been largely solved. As for terrorist attacks, well, invasions clearly don't stop terrorism in and of themselves, so why would just doing more of them magically solve that problem for Israel?

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

They haven't been attacked by another state in decades now (after a long period of semi-regular wars). So that problem seems to have been largely solved. As for terrorist attacks, well, invasions clearly don't stop terrorism in and of themselves, so why would just doing more of them magically solve that problem for Israel?

Let's just clear things up about what I want so you don't have to guess. After all, that's scientific. We like facts, right?

Here's what I want in black and white: I want the Jews to bail out and come here . . . and after that if the Arabs keep acting like high-school skinheads . . . just nuke 'em. Hey, the fact that we're going to be nuking in that area might motivate some Jews to come to the 'States.

Ziggurat · 22nd August 2007, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by JJR

I should provide a link . . . but it's true damn it!!

Why should we believe you? Simply because you believe it's true? Because someone told you it's true? If the information is hard for you to locate, on what basis do you trust that whoever told you was able to locate such information rather than just making it up? And what happens to your model of how this all works if you find out that it is not, in fact, true?

Quote:

Give me a clue as to how I should gather information on lobbyers and I'll give it a google. Keywords would be nice.

That's your job, not mine.

Katana · 22nd August 2007, 11:27 AM

JJR, I found this interesting website.

I may not give you all of your answers, but it's a start.

You can do searches by bill, issue, industry, top spenders, etc.

Check out the different search tabs.

Ziggurat · 22nd August 2007, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by JJR

Here's what I want in black and white: I want the Jews to bail out and come here . . .

And how will that work? Are they all going to move to one place in the US, or spread out? Because they've formed communities and social networks in Israel, and they don't want to break up those communities. If it's all in one place, where? Who gets to decide? And if it's not in one place, what determines who goes where? And who exactly is going to pay for the move? You're looking at something probably on the order of trillions of dollars to rebuild that many homes, that much infrastructure, and that many businesses. And over what timescale? It's nice that you want to move the Jews next door to satisfy your personal religious goals, but what if they aren't interested? And suppose that it is predestined by God to happen - what if it's not supposed to happen for another thousand years?

corplinx · 22nd August 2007, 11:32 AM

I think we are trying to expand the fight globally since we have done such a great job of occupying Iraq/Babylon. Yeah. We really want more of that.

rtalman · 22nd August 2007, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Katana

JJR, I found this interesting website.

I may not give you all of your answers, but it's a start.

You can do searches by bill, issue, industry, top spenders, etc.

Check out the different search tabs.

what she said.

Quote:

Top Spenders, 1998-2006

Quote:

Client
Total
US Chamber of Commerce
$317,164,680
American Medical Assn
$156,375,500
General Electric
$137,770,000
American Hospital Assn
$129,114,026
Edison Electric Institute
$105,642,628
AARP
$105,332,064
Pharmaceutical Rsrch & Mfrs of America
$104,302,000
National Assn of Realtors
$97,530,000
Business Roundtable
$97,060,000
Northrop Grumman
$95,682,374
Blue Cross/Blue Shield
$84,156,418
Freddie Mac
$81,884,048
Lockheed Martin
$80,206,965
Boeing Co
$77,898,310
Verizon Communications
$75,836,522
Philip Morris
$75,500,000
General Motors
$71,158,483
Fannie Mae
$70,957,000
Ford Motor Co
$67,670,808
US Telecom Assn
$65,280,000

Cain · 22nd August 2007, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Katana

JJR, I found this interesting website.

I may not give you all of your answers, but it's a start.

You can do searches by bill, issue, industry, top spenders, etc.

Check out the different search tabs.

This is an interesting distortion. Lobby money is not the only (or the best) metric. When members of Congress are asked which lobbies are the most influential I think they say AARP and AIPAC. It changes over time but those are near the top (as reported in either _Forbes_ or _Fortune_ -- I get the two mixed up). Also, years Republicans have been trying to get their grubby paws on the checkbooks of wealthy Jews who donate to Democrats.

Katana · 22nd August 2007, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Cain

This is an interesting distortion. Lobby money is not the only (or the best) metric. When members of Congress are asked which lobbies are the most influential I think they say AARP and AIPAC. It changes over time but those are near the top (as reported in either _Forbes_ or _Fortune_ -- I get the two mixed up). Also, years Republicans have been trying to get their grubby paws on the checkbooks of wealthy Jews who donate to Democrats.

I don't understand your "distortion" comment, as I clearly stated that it doesn't give all answers.

When it comes to how members of Congress answer the question, realize, too, that their perceptions may not be in line with reality any more than a lay person's.

Cain · 22nd August 2007, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Katana

I don't understand your "distortion" comment, as I clearly stated that it doesn't give all answers.

I take that back, but your listing does seem to imply Israeli lobbying isn't even in the top 20.

Quote:

When it comes to how members of Congress answer the question, realize, too, that their perceptions may not be in line with reality any more than a lay person's.

Here's where I saw it -- in the Mearsheimer/Walt paper:

Quote:

Jewish Americans have set up an impressive array of organisations to influence American foreign policy, of which AIPAC is the most powerful and best known. In 1997, Fortune magazine asked members of Congress and their staffs to list the most powerful lobbies in Washington. AIPAC was ranked second behind the American Association of Retired People, but ahead of the AFL-CIO and the National Rifle Association. A National Journal study in March 2005 reached a similar conclusion, placing AIPAC in second place (tied with AARP) in the Washington ‘muscle rankings’.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

A cursory search does not give back anything more recent than 1999 results (where AIPAC ranks #3):

http://www.timewarner.com/corp/newsr...667546,00.html

Regnad Kcin · 22nd August 2007, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by JJR

...I'm not afraid of work and I type at 70wpm.

That's rather astounding. I recently took a typing test, notching 49 wpm over four minutes with four errors. I was flying, and my forearms were screaming for a short time afterwards.

Who are you, Barry Allen?

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Katana

JJR, I found this interesting website.

I may not give you all of your answers, but it's a start.

You can do searches by bill, issue, industry, top spenders, etc.

Check out the different search tabs.

Out of respect for the idea behind this forum (skeptisism) I promise to check it out! I really do think David Duke is kinda dumb and want to pants him. That means pulling down his pants in public and gong . ..

Ha ha!!! (Stolen from the character Nelson from "The Simpsons")

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

That's rather astounding. I recently took a typing test, notching 49 wpm over four minutes with four errors. I was flying, and my forearms were screaming for a short time afterwards.

Who are you, Barry Allen?

I'm not The Flash but a Maric College where I got my degree in Medical Assisting I obviously passed their I.Q. test (since I attended class) and I also was tested at typing. I averaged 70 wpm.

Oh, and not to be confusing: Maric college uses an I.Q. test to weed out people. They've had to do that recently because of the flood of students. They just figured it's the most fair way to get the "cream of the crop" as they said.

Hey, I'm going to side with educators as much as possible. As long as people are honestly trying to be fair I think it's a good idea.

I scored quite high.

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

And how will that work? Are they all going to move to one place in the US, or spread out? Because they've formed communities and social networks in Israel, and they don't want to break up those communities. If it's all in one place, where? Who gets to decide? And if it's not in one place, what determines who goes where? And who exactly is going to pay for the move? You're looking at something probably on the order of trillions of dollars to rebuild that many homes, that much infrastructure, and that many businesses. And over what timescale? It's nice that you want to move the Jews next door to satisfy your personal religious goals, but what if they aren't interested? And suppose that it is predestined by God to happen - what if it's not supposed to happen for another thousand years?

I'm relaxed about the will of God. It will happen automatically, like everything else he does . .. and it will be cool and fun.

Basically, they should do it themselves. They should save enough for an aeroplane ticket and come here . . . the land of opportunity.

Then they can get rich and party out!!!

If they don't want to . . . I dunno. Not good to go against God's will.

Ysidro · 22nd August 2007, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

That's rather astounding. I recently took a typing test, notching 49 wpm over four minutes with four errors. I was flying, and my forearms were screaming for a short time afterwards.

Who are you, Barry Allen?

Dude, I can do 80. Either I'm Wally West or you're just slow.

OBOP: I'm surprised someone didn't mention the obvious "they're trying to start the End Times" theory.

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ysidro

Dude, I can do 80. Either I'm Wally West or you're just slow.

OBOP: I'm surprised someone didn't mention the obvious "they're trying to start the End Times" theory.

Now, now come on. What happenes in the Conspiracy Theories area stays in the Conspiracy Theories area.

If I'm not going to mention UFOs no one else should get Pat Robertson on us.

And I'm only slow because:

A. I taught myself how to type
B. I'm a terrible speller
C. They kept throwing numbers at me and that's my weak point. There's a special way to do numbers and I still have to hunt-and-peck

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 03:10 PM

Oh and for posterity I'd like to state that Ernest Rady is White, not Jewish. He b a White boy, like me.

Whitey.

Ziggurat · 22nd August 2007, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by JJR

Basically, they should do it themselves. They should save enough for an aeroplane ticket and come here . . . the land of opportunity.

The plane ticket isn't the problem. Have you ever shopped for a house? It's expensive. It's especially difficult for most people to do if 1) they can't sell their current house for a decent price (because who's going to buy them if Israelis are evacuating?) and 2) they don't have a job yet, and it might take years for them to find one equivalent to what they were making. Again, we're talking TRILLIONS (not billions) of dollars in costs. Who is going to pay for that? You said they should, but they cannot, not unless you spread the whole process out over many, many decades, in which case why the hell bother? Basically, do you have even the slightest clue about how difficult what you're suggesting is? Because you've shown every indication that you do not.

And why the hell should they have to come here anyways? They've got homes, friends, families, neighbors, jobs, co-workers... they've got entire lives built there. Why should they have to give all that up? They shouldn't have to. And here's a clue for you: most of them won't give it up.

Quote:

If they don't want to . . . I dunno. Not good to go against God's will.

Yeah, well, much of the mess in the middle east is caused by people convinced that they know what the will of God is. I wouldn't be so quick to presume that you've got it figured out.

Darth Rotor · 22nd August 2007, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by JJR

Oh and for posterity I'd like to state that Ernest Rady is White, not Jewish. He b a White boy, like me.

Whitey.

You just made my brain hurt.

How are Jewish people not white?

DR

rtalman · 22nd August 2007, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

You just made my brain hurt.

How are Jewish people not white?

DR

What does race have to do with religion?

Darth Rotor · 22nd August 2007, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by rtalman

What does race have to do with religion?
http://www.africanamericans.com/imag...mmyDavisJr.jpg

Good answer, but as you know, Jew does not only refer to religion. Christian does, Jew does not.

DR

Tricky · 22nd August 2007, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by rtalman

What does race have to do with religion?
http://www.africanamericans.com/imag...mmyDavisJr.jpg

There are a lot of strong correlations between ethnicity and religion (go figure). Right now over in the Religion forum, there's a big brouhaha over whether Jews are a race or a religion.

That said, it is also true that you can't convert to negro.

gtc · 22nd August 2007, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

That's rather astounding. I recently took a typing test, notching 49 wpm over four minutes with four errors. I was flying, and my forearms were screaming for a short time afterwards.

Who are you, Barry Allen?

I typed 72 words in well under a minute with only four errors.

This is what I typed:

Quote:

A a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a aa a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a

Its a word!

rtalman · 22nd August 2007, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Jew does not only refer to religion..

DR

Mayhap there is some confusion between "Jewish" and "Semitic"

Darth Rotor · 22nd August 2007, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by rtalman

Mayhap there is some confusion between "Jewish" and "Semitic"

There is a great deal of deliberately crafted confusion on the topic, what is your point?

DR

gtc · 22nd August 2007, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

There is a great deal of deliberately crafted confusion on the topic, what is your point?

DR

It is not necesarily deliberate.

I think the concept of Jewishness predates the concept that there is (or should be) a clear difference between race, ethnicity, religion etc.

rtalman · 22nd August 2007, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

There is a great deal of deliberately crafted confusion on the topic, what is your point?

DR

That words matter. If one is referring to religion, one shoud use the religious term. If one is referring to ethnicity, then one should use the ethnic term.

gtc · 22nd August 2007, 08:12 PM

However,

Many of the Jews I know would refer to their ethnicity as Jewish, even if they are not religous.

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

You just made my brain hurt.

How are Jewish people not white?

DR

Caucazoid. Same as Egyptians. Same as Arabs.

EDIT: Same as Irish, same as German, same as Scottish, same as French, and same as the English.

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by gtc

However,

Many of the Jews I know would refer to their ethnicity as Jewish, even if they are not religous.

Yes. Only they get Say Tachs (sp?) disease . . . and no other Caucazoid.

rtalman · 22nd August 2007, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by JJR

Yes. Only they get Say Tacs (sp?) disease . . . and no other Caucazoid.

French Canadians and Cajuns have a pretty close rate of occurrence of Tay-Sachs (~1 in 30) to the Ashkenazis (~1 in 27), who have the highest concentration among populations of Semitic descent. Irish American populations have an occurrence rate of ~1 in 50 of being Tay-Sachs carriers.

JJR · 22nd August 2007, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by rtalman

French Canadians and Cajuns have a pretty close rate of occurrence of Tay-Sachs (~1 in 30) to the Ashkenazis (~1 in 27), who have the highest concentration among populations of Semitic descent. Irish American populations have an occurrence rate of ~1 in 50 of being Tay-Sachs carriers.

Perhaps Jews have the . . . most common occurrences of Tay-Sachs. That suggests that a genetic difference exists.

rtalman · 22nd August 2007, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by JJR

Perhaps Jews have the . . . most common occurrences of Tay-Sachs. That suggest that a genetic difference exists.

That suggests nothing of the sort.

Hemophilia, another inherited disease, was once more common among European nobility than in the general population. Do you contend that there is some 'genetic difference' between the nobility and the common of Europe, beyond simple inheritance of recessive genes?

Blonde hair and blue eyes are also traits inherited in the same manner as Tay-Sachs. Do you think there is a 'genetic difference' between those with blonde hair and blue eyes and the rest of the population of the world, beyond parentage?

22nd August 2007, 10:22 AM	#1
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Are Republicans trying to make the war more global? Seriously - does anyone else believe that the current administration and their lackeys are trying to make this war last forever? Has anyone else paused and thought, "Hey - I think they are trying to make this a more global war . . . and will expand it until we are fighting all of the enemies of Isreal." Obvioiusly it's all about the oil, but isn't it interesting that the largest group that lobbys Congress . . . is Jewish American? I don't want the sum of my existance to be about cleaning up Israel's garbage for them. That's not the team I want to be on, America doesn't have make itself this team . . . we have more important things to do. I've posted a thread before about the cowardly Ernest Rady. He's just an example. I think I dislike him because he is the epitomy . . . the ultimate Republican. Old, always wearing a dark suit in sunny California . . . bony girl arms with old man stink. Is our whole society geared around heaping rewards on someone like THAT . . . are our soldiers working for HIM with the ultimate goal to be to put in a puppet prime minister of Israel that we can control so we can suck all the oil from that dry piece of real estate, then bug off to Alaska once it's all gone? I've heard people on here say, "The war is wrong" and so on, but the global issue I think is pertinent. Stop focusing on who we are currently bombing at the moment. Are we really going to protect Isreal forever and expand until we are fighting every Arab Nation on Earth? Who decided who was the good guys and who was the bad guys here? Are we at least going to dump Israel once we score the oil . . . or must we fulfill the obligation forever?

22nd August 2007, 10:55 AM	#5
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,224	Originally Posted by JJR Obvioiusly it's all about the oil, but isn't it interesting that the largest group that lobbys Congress . . . is Jewish American? Evidence? Quote: Are we really going to protect Isreal forever and expand until we are fighting every Arab Nation on Earth? I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that we've essentially agreed to protect Japan forever. Oh, that's right: they're not Jews, so it's OK. But suppose we do want to "protect Israel forever" . Why on earth would that require that we fight every arab nation? It wouldn't. If you honestly think that we're getting ready to attack Saudi Arabia, you're even more clueless than you seem.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

22nd August 2007, 11:11 AM	#8
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,224	Originally Posted by JJR Israel is the size of San Diego. It's tiny. How are we going to protect a place the size of a city in the middle of a sea of Arabs?? They haven't been attacked by another state in decades now (after a long period of semi-regular wars). So that problem seems to have been largely solved. As for terrorist attacks, well, invasions clearly don't stop terrorism in and of themselves, so why would just doing more of them magically solve that problem for Israel?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

22nd August 2007, 11:20 AM	#10
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,224	Originally Posted by JJR I should provide a link . . . but it's true damn it!! Why should we believe you? Simply because you believe it's true? Because someone told you it's true? If the information is hard for you to locate, on what basis do you trust that whoever told you was able to locate such information rather than just making it up? And what happens to your model of how this all works if you find out that it is not, in fact, true? Quote: Give me a clue as to how I should gather information on lobbyers and I'll give it a google. Keywords would be nice. That's your job, not mine.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

22nd August 2007, 11:27 AM	#11
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	JJR, I found this interesting website. I may not give you all of your answers, but it's a start. You can do searches by bill, issue, industry, top spenders, etc. Check out the different search tabs.
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	__________________ "I think Katana is as big of a perv as the rest of us." - Dragonrock "The rationality was there, and clear and concise. The condescention was hinted at and was like french onion dip on the perfect potato chip. Tasted like woo smackdown." - Fowlsound (aka Ducky, darnit) "Katana is one quick shut-yo-mouth!" - JonnyFive StopSylviaBrowne

22nd August 2007, 10:26 AM	#2
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	I digressed a little, for that I appologise (before anyone can comment). I just want to focus on the question I posed. Are Republicans trying to get us . . . fighting every Arab nation?

22nd August 2007, 10:33 AM	#3
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by JJR I digressed a little, for that I appologise (before anyone can comment). I just want to focus on the question I posed. Are Republicans trying to get us . . . fighting every Arab nation? I note that a non Republican, Joe Lieberman, has in the last few months spoken up supporting a generally hard line rationale for attacking Iran. So too have a number of Hawkish conservative pundits. (Kristol, a bunch of NR contributors, IIRC Krauthammer has been heard from on this score) I recall VP Cheney mentioning a while back, in a public statement, that "military option is not off the table" in re Iran. If that is what you are referring to, Iran is not an Arab nation. If you are referring to similar bellicose discussions in re Syria, then my provisional answer is: yes, there are some people within the Republican bloc who want Syria to be changed, either by force or a variety of other means, with part of the reason being reducing the threat to Israel, and the region in general. The real fun begins when someone in America figures that it is time to change Saudi Arabia "for their own good." We may yet live in even more interesting times. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

22nd August 2007, 10:43 AM	#4
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Thank you for answering. I think we are going to end up fighting all the enemies of Isreal . . . which is the entire Middle East. That's ridiculous. We automatically can't win.

22nd August 2007, 11:02 AM	#6
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Israel is the size of San Diego. It's tiny. How are we going to protect a place the size of a city in the middle of a sea of Arabs?? Stupid, man. Oh, my friend just informed me that Israel is half the size of Florida. Excuse the hell out of me. It's still an island in a sea of angry Arabs.

22nd August 2007, 11:10 AM	#7
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Evidence? I should provide a link . . . but it's true damn it!! Give me a clue as to how I should gather information on lobbyers and I'll give it a google. Keywords would be nice. I'm not afraid of work and I type at 70wpm. Quote: I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that we've essentially agreed to protect Japan forever. Oh, that's right: they're not Jews, so it's OK. But suppose we do want to "protect Israel forever" . Why on earth would that require that we fight every arab nation? It wouldn't. If you honestly think that we're getting ready to attack Saudi Arabia, you're even more clueless than you seem. Look man I'm not reading from the David Duke Jr.'s propoganda guidebook. If anything, I think the Jews should come here to America. It's part of my religion - I'm supopsed to believe that the new Jersalem will be on the American Continent and that the 10 tribes of Zion will reunite . . . HERE. There's plenty of room. We've got the boats. Hell, we've got the aeroplanes. Travel first class, man. Have a couple of drinks. And, yes I think it is possible that . . . in a few years we could attack Saudi Arabia simply because they are an enemy of Israel. The Arabs and the Jews have been fighting since they were monkees . .. they aren't going to get along. Don't think that I forgot that my thread about all the UFO sightings over Isreal in the "Conspiracy Theories" area was deleted either. That sucks, man. Silly mods.

22nd August 2007, 11:15 AM	#9
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Originally Posted by Ziggurat They haven't been attacked by another state in decades now (after a long period of semi-regular wars). So that problem seems to have been largely solved. As for terrorist attacks, well, invasions clearly don't stop terrorism in and of themselves, so why would just doing more of them magically solve that problem for Israel? Let's just clear things up about what I want so you don't have to guess. After all, that's scientific. We like facts, right? Here's what I want in black and white: I want the Jews to bail out and come here . . . and after that if the Arabs keep acting like high-school skinheads . . . just nuke 'em. Hey, the fact that we're going to be nuking in that area might motivate some Jews to come to the 'States.

22nd August 2007, 11:27 AM	#12
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,224	Originally Posted by JJR Here's what I want in black and white: I want the Jews to bail out and come here . . . And how will that work? Are they all going to move to one place in the US, or spread out? Because they've formed communities and social networks in Israel, and they don't want to break up those communities. If it's all in one place, where? Who gets to decide? And if it's not in one place, what determines who goes where? And who exactly is going to pay for the move? You're looking at something probably on the order of trillions of dollars to rebuild that many homes, that much infrastructure, and that many businesses. And over what timescale? It's nice that you want to move the Jews next door to satisfy your personal religious goals, but what if they aren't interested? And suppose that it is predestined by God to happen - what if it's not supposed to happen for another thousand years?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

22nd August 2007, 11:32 AM	#13
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	I think we are trying to expand the fight globally since we have done such a great job of occupying Iraq/Babylon. Yeah. We really want more of that.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

22nd August 2007, 11:43 AM	#14
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	Originally Posted by Katana JJR, I found this interesting website. I may not give you all of your answers, but it's a start. You can do searches by bill, issue, industry, top spenders, etc. Check out the different search tabs. what she said. Quote: Top Spenders, 1998-2006 Quote: Client Total US Chamber of Commerce $317,164,680 American Medical Assn $156,375,500 General Electric $137,770,000 American Hospital Assn $129,114,026 Edison Electric Institute $105,642,628 AARP $105,332,064 Pharmaceutical Rsrch & Mfrs of America $104,302,000 National Assn of Realtors $97,530,000 Business Roundtable $97,060,000 Northrop Grumman $95,682,374 Blue Cross/Blue Shield $84,156,418 Freddie Mac $81,884,048 Lockheed Martin $80,206,965 Boeing Co $77,898,310 Verizon Communications $75,836,522 Philip Morris $75,500,000 General Motors $71,158,483 Fannie Mae $70,957,000 Ford Motor Co $67,670,808 US Telecom Assn $65,280,000
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	__________________ Re-education Camp Director: What's better than a big juicy steak? Camp Detainees: Nothing is better than a big juicy steak! Re-education Camp Director: And what's better than nothing? Camp Detainees: A stale piece of bread is better than nothing! Re-education Camp Director: Therefore a stale piece of bread is better than a big juicy steak.

22nd August 2007, 12:15 PM	#15
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,940	Originally Posted by Katana JJR, I found this interesting website. I may not give you all of your answers, but it's a start. You can do searches by bill, issue, industry, top spenders, etc. Check out the different search tabs. This is an interesting distortion. Lobby money is not the only (or the best) metric. When members of Congress are asked which lobbies are the most influential I think they say AARP and AIPAC. It changes over time but those are near the top (as reported in either _Forbes_ or _Fortune_ -- I get the two mixed up). Also, years Republicans have been trying to get their grubby paws on the checkbooks of wealthy Jews who donate to Democrats.
	__________________ *Arrested Development* is coming back! Michael (to GOB): Get rid of the Seaward. Lucille: I’ll leave when I’m good and ready.

22nd August 2007, 12:19 PM	#16
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	Originally Posted by Cain This is an interesting distortion. Lobby money is not the only (or the best) metric. When members of Congress are asked which lobbies are the most influential I think they say AARP and AIPAC. It changes over time but those are near the top (as reported in either _Forbes_ or _Fortune_ -- I get the two mixed up). Also, years Republicans have been trying to get their grubby paws on the checkbooks of wealthy Jews who donate to Democrats. I don't understand your "distortion" comment, as I clearly stated that it doesn't give all answers. When it comes to how members of Congress answer the question, realize, too, that their perceptions may not be in line with reality any more than a lay person's.
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	__________________ "I think Katana is as big of a perv as the rest of us." - Dragonrock "The rationality was there, and clear and concise. The condescention was hinted at and was like french onion dip on the perfect potato chip. Tasted like woo smackdown." - Fowlsound (aka Ducky, darnit) "Katana is one quick shut-yo-mouth!" - JonnyFive StopSylviaBrowne

22nd August 2007, 12:32 PM	#17
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,940	Originally Posted by Katana I don't understand your "distortion" comment, as I clearly stated that it doesn't give all answers. I take that back, but your listing does seem to imply Israeli lobbying isn't even in the top 20. Quote: When it comes to how members of Congress answer the question, realize, too, that their perceptions may not be in line with reality any more than a lay person's. Here's where I saw it -- in the Mearsheimer/Walt paper: Quote: Jewish Americans have set up an impressive array of organisations to influence American foreign policy, of which AIPAC is the most powerful and best known. In 1997, Fortune magazine asked members of Congress and their staffs to list the most powerful lobbies in Washington. AIPAC was ranked second behind the American Association of Retired People, but ahead of the AFL-CIO and the National Rifle Association. A National Journal study in March 2005 reached a similar conclusion, placing AIPAC in second place (tied with AARP) in the Washington ‘muscle rankings’. http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html A cursory search does not give back anything more recent than 1999 results (where AIPAC ranks #3): http://www.timewarner.com/corp/newsr...667546,00.html
	__________________ *Arrested Development* is coming back! Michael (to GOB): Get rid of the Seaward. Lucille: I’ll leave when I’m good and ready.

22nd August 2007, 01:52 PM	#18
Regnad Kcin Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The ol' Same place Posts: 6,222	Originally Posted by JJR ...I'm not afraid of work and I type at 70wpm. That's rather astounding. I recently took a typing test, notching 49 wpm over four minutes with four errors. I was flying, and my forearms were screaming for a short time afterwards. Who are you, Barry Allen?
	__________________ My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.

22nd August 2007, 02:27 PM	#19
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Originally Posted by Katana JJR, I found this interesting website. I may not give you all of your answers, but it's a start. You can do searches by bill, issue, industry, top spenders, etc. Check out the different search tabs. Out of respect for the idea behind this forum (skeptisism) I promise to check it out! I really do think David Duke is kinda dumb and want to pants him. That means pulling down his pants in public and gong . .. Ha ha!!! (Stolen from the character Nelson from "The Simpsons")

22nd August 2007, 02:30 PM	#20
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin That's rather astounding. I recently took a typing test, notching 49 wpm over four minutes with four errors. I was flying, and my forearms were screaming for a short time afterwards. Who are you, Barry Allen? I'm not The Flash but a Maric College where I got my degree in Medical Assisting I obviously passed their I.Q. test (since I attended class) and I also was tested at typing. I averaged 70 wpm. Oh, and not to be confusing: Maric college uses an I.Q. test to weed out people. They've had to do that recently because of the flood of students. They just figured it's the most fair way to get the "cream of the crop" as they said. Hey, I'm going to side with educators as much as possible. As long as people are honestly trying to be fair I think it's a good idea. I scored quite high.

22nd August 2007, 02:49 PM	#21
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Originally Posted by Ziggurat And how will that work? Are they all going to move to one place in the US, or spread out? Because they've formed communities and social networks in Israel, and they don't want to break up those communities. If it's all in one place, where? Who gets to decide? And if it's not in one place, what determines who goes where? And who exactly is going to pay for the move? You're looking at something probably on the order of trillions of dollars to rebuild that many homes, that much infrastructure, and that many businesses. And over what timescale? It's nice that you want to move the Jews next door to satisfy your personal religious goals, but what if they aren't interested? And suppose that it is predestined by God to happen - what if it's not supposed to happen for another thousand years? I'm relaxed about the will of God. It will happen automatically, like everything else he does . .. and it will be cool and fun. Basically, they should do it themselves. They should save enough for an aeroplane ticket and come here . . . the land of opportunity. Then they can get rich and party out!!! If they don't want to . . . I dunno. Not good to go against God's will.

22nd August 2007, 02:55 PM	#22
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,334	Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin That's rather astounding. I recently took a typing test, notching 49 wpm over four minutes with four errors. I was flying, and my forearms were screaming for a short time afterwards. Who are you, Barry Allen? Dude, I can do 80. Either I'm Wally West or you're just slow. OBOP: I'm surprised someone didn't mention the obvious "they're trying to start the End Times" theory.
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,334

22nd August 2007, 03:08 PM	#23
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Originally Posted by Ysidro Dude, I can do 80. Either I'm Wally West or you're just slow. OBOP: I'm surprised someone didn't mention the obvious "they're trying to start the End Times" theory. Now, now come on. What happenes in the Conspiracy Theories area stays in the Conspiracy Theories area. If I'm not going to mention UFOs no one else should get Pat Robertson on us. And I'm only slow because: A. I taught myself how to type B. I'm a terrible speller C. They kept throwing numbers at me and that's my weak point. There's a special way to do numbers and I still have to hunt-and-peck

22nd August 2007, 03:10 PM	#24
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Oh and for posterity I'd like to state that Ernest Rady is White, not Jewish. He b a White boy, like me. Whitey.

22nd August 2007, 03:43 PM	#25
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,224	Originally Posted by JJR Basically, they should do it themselves. They should save enough for an aeroplane ticket and come here . . . the land of opportunity. The plane ticket isn't the problem. Have you ever shopped for a house? It's expensive. It's especially difficult for most people to do if 1) they can't sell their current house for a decent price (because who's going to buy them if Israelis are evacuating?) and 2) they don't have a job yet, and it might take years for them to find one equivalent to what they were making. Again, we're talking TRILLIONS (not billions) of dollars in costs. Who is going to pay for that? You said they should, but they cannot, not unless you spread the whole process out over many, many decades, in which case why the hell bother? Basically, do you have even the slightest clue about how difficult what you're suggesting is? Because you've shown every indication that you do not. And why the hell should they have to come here anyways? They've got homes, friends, families, neighbors, jobs, co-workers... they've got entire lives built there. Why should they have to give all that up? They shouldn't have to. And here's a clue for you: most of them won't give it up. Quote: If they don't want to . . . I dunno. Not good to go against God's will. Yeah, well, much of the mess in the middle east is caused by people convinced that they know what the will of God is. I wouldn't be so quick to presume that you've got it figured out.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

22nd August 2007, 03:53 PM	#26
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by JJR Oh and for posterity I'd like to state that Ernest Rady is White, not Jewish. He b a White boy, like me. Whitey. You just made my brain hurt. How are Jewish people not white? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

22nd August 2007, 04:26 PM	#27
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor You just made my brain hurt. How are Jewish people not white? DR What does race have to do with religion?
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	__________________ Re-education Camp Director: What's better than a big juicy steak? Camp Detainees: Nothing is better than a big juicy steak! Re-education Camp Director: And what's better than nothing? Camp Detainees: A stale piece of bread is better than nothing! Re-education Camp Director: Therefore a stale piece of bread is better than a big juicy steak.

22nd August 2007, 04:53 PM	#28
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by rtalman What does race have to do with religion? http://www.africanamericans.com/imag...mmyDavisJr.jpg Good answer, but as you know, Jew does not only refer to religion. Christian does, Jew does not. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

22nd August 2007, 05:21 PM	#29
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,373	Originally Posted by rtalman What does race have to do with religion? http://www.africanamericans.com/imag...mmyDavisJr.jpg There are a lot of strong correlations between ethnicity and religion (go figure). Right now over in the Religion forum, there's a big brouhaha over whether Jews are a race or a religion. That said, it is also true that you can't convert to negro.

22nd August 2007, 07:16 PM	#30
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,114	Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin That's rather astounding. I recently took a typing test, notching 49 wpm over four minutes with four errors. I was flying, and my forearms were screaming for a short time afterwards. Who are you, Barry Allen? I typed 72 words in well under a minute with only four errors. This is what I typed: Quote: A a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a aa a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a Its a word!

22nd August 2007, 07:37 PM	#31
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Jew does not only refer to religion.. DR Mayhap there is some confusion between "Jewish" and "Semitic"
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	__________________ Re-education Camp Director: What's better than a big juicy steak? Camp Detainees: Nothing is better than a big juicy steak! Re-education Camp Director: And what's better than nothing? Camp Detainees: A stale piece of bread is better than nothing! Re-education Camp Director: Therefore a stale piece of bread is better than a big juicy steak.

22nd August 2007, 07:51 PM	#32
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by rtalman Mayhap there is some confusion between "Jewish" and "Semitic" There is a great deal of deliberately crafted confusion on the topic, what is your point? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

22nd August 2007, 08:01 PM	#33
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,114	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor There is a great deal of deliberately crafted confusion on the topic, what is your point? DR It is not necesarily deliberate. I think the concept of Jewishness predates the concept that there is (or should be) a clear difference between race, ethnicity, religion etc.

22nd August 2007, 08:08 PM	#34
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor There is a great deal of deliberately crafted confusion on the topic, what is your point? DR That words matter. If one is referring to religion, one shoud use the religious term. If one is referring to ethnicity, then one should use the ethnic term.
rtalman Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 835	__________________ Re-education Camp Director: What's better than a big juicy steak? Camp Detainees: Nothing is better than a big juicy steak! Re-education Camp Director: And what's better than nothing? Camp Detainees: A stale piece of bread is better than nothing! Re-education Camp Director: Therefore a stale piece of bread is better than a big juicy steak.

22nd August 2007, 08:12 PM	#35
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,114	However, Many of the Jews I know would refer to their ethnicity as Jewish, even if they are not religous.