God's Warriors

UnrepentantSinner · 24th August 2007, 12:12 AM

Did any of you watch CNN's God's Warriors? I caught part of the Jewish and Muslim installments plus parts of Christiane Amanpour's Larry King interview, but I missed tonights Christian episode.

Knowing CNN I'll be able to watch it again and again and again on a weekend, but if any of you saw all three parts I'd love to get a discussion going about it.

UnrepentantSinner · 24th August 2007, 07:09 AM

Did no one watch this series?

Dumbledore · 24th August 2007, 07:14 AM

I did not watch the series, but I think that it is interesting that they call them god warriors. Whats with that???!

modecom · 24th August 2007, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

Did no one watch this series?

I'm watching the christian episode now and it makes me sick, so many mentally deluded fundamental idiots.

Having said that, I am sure that you, UnrepentantSinner, and the other religious apologists and christ punchers on this forum will find a way of defending the loony.

Bri · 24th August 2007, 09:03 AM

I saw all three. I thought the series was well-done, and adequately portrayed the dangers of radical fundamentalism within any religion. Dumbledore, they are referred to as God's warriors because they (either figuratively or literally) have decided to fight in the name of their religion.

Although the program did show that no religion is immune from radical fundamentalism, I don't personally think it adequately addressed the questions (possibly misconceptions?) of why there seem to be a disproportionate number of Muslim radical fundamentalists or why few mainstream Muslims seem to speak out against the radicals.

-Bri

sinclairmcevoy · 24th August 2007, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by modecom

I'm watching the christian episode now and it makes me sick, so many mentally deluded fundamental idiots.

Having said that, I am sure that you, UnrepentantSinner, and the other religious apologists and christ punchers on this forum will find a way of defending the loony.

What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem.

Bri · 24th August 2007, 09:20 AM

I have no problem with people living their lives any way they want. However, I do have a problem with someone else wanting to force me to live my life the way they want me to live my life.

-Bri

Darth Rotor · 24th August 2007, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Bri

I saw all three. I thought the series was well-done, and adequately portrayed the dangers of radical fundamentalism within any religion. Dumbledore, they are referred to as God's warriors because they (either figuratively or literally) have decided to fight in the name of their religion.

Although the program did show that no religion is immune from radical fundamentalism, I don't personally think it adequately addressed the questions (possibly misconceptions?) of why there seem to be a disproportionate number of Muslim radical fundamentalists or why few mainstream Muslims seem to speak out against the radicals.

-Bri

I wonder if she'll do one on Bhudda's Beserkers next.

How about the soon to be published "Krishna's Commandos."

I bet the action figures will be a big seller.

DR

quixotecoyote · 24th August 2007, 10:39 AM

What was apparent to me from watching them was how she had to change focus when she switched to Christians in America.

[exaggerated for emphasis]
Day 1. Jews want to beat the hell out of Palestinians

Day 2. Muslims want to beat the hell out of everyone else + each other.

Day 3. Christians want to improperly influence environmental legislation.

It was also interesting that she seemed to spend proportionately more time talking to 'sympathetic' Christians than she did in the other segments.

JESTERKING45 · 24th August 2007, 10:51 AM

I watched the Muslim part and last night I watched most of the christian one (big argument) when it got to the Ron Luce part becuase I contention is that he is a moron. Plus he's really offensive. He acually said this Quote "Mtv doesn't care if you (teenage girls) dress certain way and get date raped." He said this in an auditorium of thousands of teenagers, and again said basically the same thing on Joyce Myers TV show. I see Ron Luce I see someone who's almost like a cult leader, seriously the whole ideology of this man seems to be that if you drink, smoke, or have premarital sex that it's not YOUR responsibility it's awful music and movies and video games. The whole thing seems just a trifle bit absurd. One of my problems though (asside from the idiocy of Rev. Whatever his name was saying that americas moral problems are due to social darwinism. Seriously?) was Karen Armstrong's assertion that Secularism has failed some of these christians. Really? How many of them have ever tried? I don't get that. Doesn't make any sense to me. Don't even get me started on Pastor can't remember his name and don't really care saying that "secular values are alien to america and that I'm an illegal alien." What an ***** retard. Oh yeah and banning gay marriage isn't really banning something it's pretecting something. Right

Bri · 24th August 2007, 12:59 PM

In all three segments, I was struck by similarities among very devout people who were all previously secular. They all said that they felt that something was missing in their secular life, or that they felt their secular life didn't offer them moral boundaries.

Of course, I know plenty of secular people who don't feel that way, but I found the trend towards religion from secularism interesting and wonder what the numbers are compared to those becoming more secular.

-Bri

Polaris · 24th August 2007, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by sinclairmcevoy

What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem.

Why exactly is sex to be equated with stomping someone's face in or getting AIDS/frying your nervous system with heroin?

UnrepentantSinner · 24th August 2007, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

What was apparent to me from watching them was how she had to change focus when she switched to Christians in America.

[exaggerated for emphasis]
Day 1. Jews want to beat the hell out of Palestinians

Day 2. Muslims want to beat the hell out of everyone else + each other.

Day 3. Christians want to improperly influence environmental legislation.

It was also interesting that she seemed to spend proportionately more time talking to 'sympathetic' Christians than she did in the other segments.

I'll have to catch that installment. Of what I saw for the Jewish and Muslim ones she did seem to give a lot of time to those opposed to radical fundamentalism.

One possibility is that Kach etc. want to create Greater Israel, and the Muslims envision a new Caliphate, while Christians in America are still trying, 35 years later, to overturn Roe v. Wade and get Creationism back into schools. Of course the latter have uncle Bushie doing their Crusader work for them so they might be more complacent on the territorial front.

articulett · 24th August 2007, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by sinclairmcevoy

What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem.

Because Religion doesn't teach our youth to be good people... it doesn't work as advertised. And secular societies are healthier. You don't need to agree with these facts, just provide an iota of evidence to the contrary. Religion offers no protection from the dysfunction you mention. There's nothing wrong with teaching the youth good values--that's why we have secularism. Besides, religionists all think they have better values than those who believe differently, but the facts don't bear this our at all.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

articulett · 24th August 2007, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by Bri

In all three segments, I was struck by similarities among very devout people who were all previously secular. They all said that they felt that something was missing in their secular life, or that they felt their secular life didn't offer them moral boundaries.

Of course, I know plenty of secular people who don't feel that way, but I found the trend towards religion from secularism interesting and wonder what the numbers are compared to those becoming more secular.

-Bri

Yes, it's the big lies told about non-believers to keep the faithful from questioning the big lie.

articulett · 24th August 2007, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Polaris

Why exactly is sex to be equated with stomping someone's face in or getting AIDS/frying your nervous system with heroin?

Well the commandments and scriptures don't forbid the latter--just stuff like not eating ham or not working on Sunday or worshiping the invisible guy with the right name... and no coveting.

Pedophilia, torture, bigotry, oppression, dishonesty for god, threatening trusting people with hell-- that's fine of course. Those things didn't make the top ten no-no's in any of those fabulous examples of "morality".

UnrepentantSinner · 24th August 2007, 08:49 PM

Please stop spamming my thread.

Skeptic Ginger · 26th August 2007, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Dumbledore

I did not watch the series, but I think that it is interesting that they call them god warriors. Whats with that???!

Well for the Jews and Muslims it was because the focus was on literal violence to defend or spread your fundamentalist beliefs. For the Christians there was a bit of that with more focus on fighting for a 'Christian State' in the US. I saw all 3 segments tonight, 6 hours, (while cleaning the house.) That was downright frightening. It's hard to say how prevalent the fundies are in relation to the masses but of the fundies they featured, it was pretty bad.

Skeptic Ginger · 26th August 2007, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Bri

I saw all three. I thought the series was well-done, and adequately portrayed the dangers of radical fundamentalism within any religion. Dumbledore, they are referred to as God's warriors because they (either figuratively or literally) have decided to fight in the name of their religion.

Although the program did show that no religion is immune from radical fundamentalism, I don't personally think it adequately addressed the questions (possibly misconceptions?) of why there seem to be a disproportionate number of Muslim radical fundamentalists or why few mainstream Muslims seem to speak out against the radicals.

-Bri

I think they showed an equally radical Jewish crowd. I believe it just happens to be current events with those two groups. If it were a different slice of history we may have seen just as much Christian violence and no one speaking out. The Inquisition and witch trials come to mind.

What was the most frightening is just how crazy fundies are at the moment. Couple that with the nuclear age and the Arab Israeli conflict and I think I need a bigger stockpile of disaster supplies. I was only planning for the 3 day earthquake aftermath. Maybe I should consider something on a bigger scale.

Skeptic Ginger · 26th August 2007, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by sinclairmcevoy

What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem.

Re the sex ed issues, that upset father they interviewed only gave his version of events. I doubt the class he said he sat in on was really telling his daughter that sex was fine if you just use a condom. I would imagine the actual class just didn't instill enough fear and distortion in the kids for that fundie's taste.

The typical Evangelical call is for abstinence only education. Some Evangelicals claim teaching kids about condoms is the equivalent of teaching them how to sin and avoid God's wrath. They would rather the kids had the threat of HIV as a deterrent to sex. But research shows it is not a deterrent and only leads to more HIV, not less premarital sex.

Our schools require the parent's permission to teach sex ed and they have it after regular school hours. At least that way someone else's idea of sin doesn't interfere with my child's education.

Skeptic Ginger · 26th August 2007, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

I wonder if she'll do one on Bhudda's Beserkers next.

How about the soon to be published "Krishna's Commandos."

I bet the action figures will be a big seller.

DR

There actually is a lot of violence between the Hindus and Muslims currently. And Hinduism is practiced by more people than the Jewish religion currently. They should have included Hinduism but this is a Judeo-Christian centric society. It's too bad. It could have been very interesting.

Drummer · 26th August 2007, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by sinclairmcevoy

What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem.

Nothing wrong with that (except the sex bit, but let's not get into that right now), but religion doesn't teach that. Religion doesn't teach that drugs and violence are bad. It teaches blind obedience to a supreme being and it's rules, both reasonable and stupid. Youth that get taught out of the bible that drugs are bad have no clue why, apart from that God says you shouldn't. Since they are also taught that God/ Jesus forgives sin, what's to stop them then from a little experimenting and asking for forgiveness later on? And as for violence, you ought to read Sam Harris on that. Religions are hostile to people with different religions/ ideas about the world almost by definition. They automatically divide the world in us and them. Not exactly a basis for a peaceful society.

Bri · 26th August 2007, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

I think they showed an equally radical Jewish crowd.

That's the problem with this type of reporting. In order to fill up the same amount of time, they showed as many radicals as they could, but there was no mention as to how many radicals there are among the non-radicals.

There are few Jewish terrorists, as evidenced by the fact that they had to show the group that was unsuccessful at their attempt to blow up the girl's school (they were found guilty by an Israeli court are now spending their lives in an Israeli prison).

A large portion of the show was about Jewish lobby groups and the strange alliance between those groups and fundamentalist Christians.

So, I wouldn't say that they showed an equally radical Jewish crowd.

Quote:

I believe it just happens to be current events with those two groups. If it were a different slice of history we may have seen just as much Christian violence and no one speaking out. The Inquisition and witch trials come to mind.

Yes, historically Christianity has been just as violent, if not moreso.

Of course, there have been many violent radical groups throughout history, and not all of them justified their behavior by quoting verses from religious holy books, so I don't think the problem of radicalism is isolated to religion.

-Bri

blobru · 26th August 2007, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Bri

...
A large portion of the show was about Jewish lobby groups and the strange alliance between those groups and fundamentalist Christians.
...

I only saw the Christian episode and was only half paying attention, but that was one of three segments that caught my eye/ear. I didn't quite catch the rationale though: was it the usual Israel is fulfillment of prophecy and one step closer to Rapture?

I did get the impression the whole 2-hours had been pitched as an "America's Craazziest Christians" contest. If so, Ron Luce won the booby prize hands down. Targetting SanFran, Yankee 'Sodom & Gomorrah', with tearful 11-year-olds chanting "Our God is an awe-some Go-od" in an effort to what -- teach these kids hatred before they're secularised into believing there's no such thing as sin? -- downright pathetic. I'm sorry he hates himself because he had too much fun before he found God, but now to enlist 11-year-olds in his gay-bashing, self-hating crusade... made me want to throw up.

For me the pick of the litter was the conservative theologian turned preacher who felt inspired to teach the 'radical' message that fighting poverty was the most important thing a Christian could do. And then losing half his congregation! It's not hard to imagine Christ nailed to the cross giving him a wink and a two thumbs up.

Gurdur · 26th August 2007, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by modecom

Having said that, I am sure that you, UnrepentantSinner, and the other religious apologists and christ punchers on this forum will find a way of defending the loony.

More than a bit of a prejudiced comment, in the precise sense and in the extended sense, what what?
_________

I saw the series, much of it; it was very good and obviously tried hard to give a good all-round picture. One interesting failure was a failure to give a good overview of mainstreams, instead the program focused on fundies and on opposition to fundies within their own religions; a pic of the mainstreams may well have been more boring in comparison, but would have been useful for a rounded pic.

All in all, it was very worthwhile watching it, and it gave a useful sense of history and timelines too, as well as of interplays, so necessary to understanding escalations.

Bri · 26th August 2007, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by blobru

I only saw the Christian episode and was only half paying attention, but that was one of three segments that caught my eye/ear. I didn't quite catch the rationale though: was it the usual Israel is fulfillment of prophecy and one step closer to Rapture?

Yup. Truly bizarre situation, because the fundamentalist Christians believe that although the Jews are necessary to fulfill the prophecy, the Jews are going to go to hell if they don't convert to Christianity. The Jews, being the practical folk they are, gladly take their money and aren't overly worried about going to hell.

Quote:

I'm sorry he hates himself because he had too much fun before he found God, but now to enlist 11-year-olds in his gay-bashing, self-hating crusade... made me want to throw up.

You and many others, I'm afraid. I've said it before: I don't care what others believe as long as those beliefs don't include interfering with my beliefs. Clearly, a lot of Christians do want to impose their beliefs on others.

Quote:

For me the pick of the litter was the conservative theologian turned preacher who felt inspired to teach the 'radical' message that fighting poverty was the most important thing a Christian could do. And then losing half his congregation! It's not hard to imagine Christ nailed to the cross giving him a wink and a two thumbs up.

I agree. That segment was pretty interesting. I was shocked that his congregation was so put off by the suggestion that Jesus' message may have been primarily about improving the world rather than imposing their beliefs on others that he lost half of his congregation! The good news is that his congregation soon doubled back to what it had been previously, so there is some hope.

-Bri

Bri · 26th August 2007, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Gurdur

One interesting failure was a failure to give a good overview of mainstreams, instead the program focused on fundies and on opposition to fundies within their own religions; a pic of the mainstreams may well have been more boring in comparison, but would have been useful for a rounded pic.

I agree, but the subject of "God's Warriors" was the fundamentalists and radicals, so it makes sense that they didn't spend a lot of time talking about the mainstream. That said, I don't think they were very clear on what the shows were actually about, so this may have been missed by a lot of people who may now have a rather inaccurate view of the religions (particularly if they only saw one of them, like the Islam one). I also think a better indication of the relative numbers of fundamentalists, radicals, and mainstream believers of each religion would have been useful and provided a more accurate picture.

-Bri

Complexity · 26th August 2007, 08:44 AM

Let's not forget the crusades.

The war with Iraq is the most recent crusade, if we need something current.

UnrepentantSinner · 26th August 2007, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

There actually is a lot of violence between the Hindus and Muslims currently. And Hinduism is practiced by more people than the Jewish religion currently. They should have included Hinduism but this is a Judeo-Christian centric society. It's too bad. It could have been very interesting.

That is a very salient observation but I think the focus was on the Abrahamic religions which would make the focus "Western" more than Judeo-Christian for the series.

Originally Posted by Gurdur

More than a bit of a prejudiced comment, in the precise sense and in the extended sense, what what?

It's either an ironic or bizarre comment based on whether that poster was parodying our more virulent God-Haters or agreeing with them.

UnrepentantSinner · 26th August 2007, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Complexity

Let's not forget the crusades.

The war with Iraq is the most recent crusade, if we need something current.

I'm guessing you didn't watch the series or have any idea of what the topic it investigated is.

Complexity · 26th August 2007, 08:16 PM

I watched five minutes of the Jewish segment. That was enough.

The second line of my post is most relevant to the series.

Do you have a point?

Skeptic Ginger · 27th August 2007, 12:58 AM

Sometimes a program is intended to be about the fundamentalist extremists and not about Jews and Muslims and Christians. I don't recall any inference these people represented the majority of any group.

UnrepentantSinner · 27th August 2007, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Complexity

Do you have a point?

Coming from someone who offers a context free "Don't forget the Crusades" (and no, your Iraq comment didn't add value... though you did have a point

) this question is dripping with irony.

I'll also note that I posted this earlier.

Originally Posted by me

One possibility is that Kach etc. want to create Greater Israel, and the Muslims envision a new Caliphate, while Christians in America are still trying, 35 years later, to overturn Roe v. Wade and get Creationism back into schools. Of course the latter have uncle Bushie doing their Crusader work for them so they might be more complacent on the territorial front.

Complexity · 27th August 2007, 06:26 AM

Sigh... I keep forgetting that some people need to have it spelled out.

The context was this thread, especially posts 9 and 19.

Having come up with the example of the current war as a crusade (congratulations, by the way), are you pretending that you didn't understand what I wrote in my post, or are you merely distressed that I didn't use some unnecessary words to pad the idea?

By the way, when you asked someone to, "Please stop spamming my thread.", you erred.

No one had been spamming your thread. I don't think you know what the word means.

It isn't your thread. You started it, but you don't own it. Don't be a control freak.

Nothing else at this time.

UnrepentantSinner · 27th August 2007, 06:59 AM

Let me, instead of spelling it out for you use an acronym - LTFU.

And Artie was spamming this thread because she's been spewing the same s*** across a number of threads and forums which in my book is spam.

How about in the future you use the quote... or..

.. even the multi-quote function and quote those posts you wish to comment on rather than a tangental, stream of conciousness - "but what about X" post?

Bri · 27th August 2007, 07:21 AM

I have to admit that I didn't know what the heck you were responding too either, Complexity. Now that you point out the posts to which you were responding (the closest of which was 9 posts prior to your post) it makes sense, but it would have helped to use the quote/multiquote option to give your post some context.

Now, I officially call an end to the derail!

-Bri

Complexity · 27th August 2007, 10:30 AM

It would have been clearer if I'd quoted - 19 would have been sufficient.

articulett's posts were quite fine. Not derails, and certainly not spam.

My objections to UnrepentantSinner stand.

Skeptic Ginger · 27th August 2007, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

....

And Artie was spamming this thread because she's been spewing the same s*** across a number of threads and forums which in my book is spam....

Well this answers my question, were you joking when you made the, "stop spamming" comment.

From someone who repeats my same views quite often in multiple threads I just see someone who has a particular opinion. That isn't spamming.

Though I do think in this case some of Artic's opinion is a bit too broad of a brush stroke. And that's coming from a pretty adamant atheist.

24th August 2007, 12:12 AM	#1
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	God's Warriors Did any of you watch CNN's God's Warriors? I caught part of the Jewish and Muslim installments plus parts of Christiane Amanpour's Larry King interview, but I missed tonights Christian episode. Knowing CNN I'll be able to watch it again and again and again on a weekend, but if any of you saw all three parts I'd love to get a discussion going about it.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

24th August 2007, 07:09 AM	#2
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	Did no one watch this series?
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

24th August 2007, 07:14 AM	#3
Dumbledore Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 347	I did not watch the series, but I think that it is interesting that they call them god warriors. Whats with that???!
	__________________ "Back off man I'm a scientist!!" Ghostbusters

24th August 2007, 08:06 AM	#4
modecom Scholar Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pale Blue Dot Posts: 68	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner Did no one watch this series? I'm watching the christian episode now and it makes me sick, so many mentally deluded fundamental idiots. Having said that, I am sure that you, UnrepentantSinner, and the other religious apologists and christ punchers on this forum will find a way of defending the loony.
	__________________ No, please, do not mistake passion, which can change its mind, for fundamentalism, which never will. - Richard Dawkins

24th August 2007, 09:03 AM	#5
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310	I saw all three. I thought the series was well-done, and adequately portrayed the dangers of radical fundamentalism within any religion. Dumbledore, they are referred to as God's warriors because they (either figuratively or literally) have decided to fight in the name of their religion. Although the program did show that no religion is immune from radical fundamentalism, I don't personally think it adequately addressed the questions (possibly misconceptions?) of why there seem to be a disproportionate number of Muslim radical fundamentalists or why few mainstream Muslims seem to speak out against the radicals. -Bri
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310	Last edited by Bri; 24th August 2007 at 09:07 AM.

24th August 2007, 09:17 AM	#6
sinclairmcevoy Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 8,027	Originally Posted by modecom I'm watching the christian episode now and it makes me sick, so many mentally deluded fundamental idiots. Having said that, I am sure that you, UnrepentantSinner, and the other religious apologists and christ punchers on this forum will find a way of defending the loony. What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem.

24th August 2007, 09:20 AM	#7
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310	I have no problem with people living their lives any way they want. However, I do have a problem with someone else wanting to force me to live my life the way they want me to live my life. -Bri
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310

24th August 2007, 10:35 AM	#8
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,257	Originally Posted by Bri I saw all three. I thought the series was well-done, and adequately portrayed the dangers of radical fundamentalism within any religion. Dumbledore, they are referred to as God's warriors because they (either figuratively or literally) have decided to fight in the name of their religion. Although the program did show that no religion is immune from radical fundamentalism, I don't personally think it adequately addressed the questions (possibly misconceptions?) of why there seem to be a disproportionate number of Muslim radical fundamentalists or why few mainstream Muslims seem to speak out against the radicals. -Bri I wonder if she'll do one on Bhudda's Beserkers next. How about the soon to be published "Krishna's Commandos." I bet the action figures will be a big seller. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

24th August 2007, 10:39 AM	#9
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	What was apparent to me from watching them was how she had to change focus when she switched to Christians in America. [exaggerated for emphasis] Day 1. Jews want to beat the hell out of Palestinians Day 2. Muslims want to beat the hell out of everyone else + each other. Day 3. Christians want to improperly influence environmental legislation. It was also interesting that she seemed to spend proportionately more time talking to 'sympathetic' Christians than she did in the other segments.
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

24th August 2007, 10:51 AM	#10
JESTERKING45 New Blood Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bristol, Tennessee Posts: 10	Secularism Failed? I watched the Muslim part and last night I watched most of the christian one (big argument) when it got to the Ron Luce part becuase I contention is that he is a moron. Plus he's really offensive. He acually said this Quote "Mtv doesn't care if you (teenage girls) dress certain way and get date raped." He said this in an auditorium of thousands of teenagers, and again said basically the same thing on Joyce Myers TV show. I see Ron Luce I see someone who's almost like a cult leader, seriously the whole ideology of this man seems to be that if you drink, smoke, or have premarital sex that it's not YOUR responsibility it's awful music and movies and video games. The whole thing seems just a trifle bit absurd. One of my problems though (asside from the idiocy of Rev. Whatever his name was saying that americas moral problems are due to social darwinism. Seriously?) was Karen Armstrong's assertion that Secularism has failed some of these christians. Really? How many of them have ever tried? I don't get that. Doesn't make any sense to me. Don't even get me started on Pastor can't remember his name and don't really care saying that "secular values are alien to america and that I'm an illegal alien." What an ***** retard. Oh yeah and banning gay marriage isn't really banning something it's pretecting something. Right

24th August 2007, 12:59 PM	#11
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310	In all three segments, I was struck by similarities among very devout people who were all previously secular. They all said that they felt that something was missing in their secular life, or that they felt their secular life didn't offer them moral boundaries. Of course, I know plenty of secular people who don't feel that way, but I found the trend towards religion from secularism interesting and wonder what the numbers are compared to those becoming more secular. -Bri
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310

24th August 2007, 01:21 PM	#12
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,169	Originally Posted by sinclairmcevoy What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem. Why exactly is sex to be equated with stomping someone's face in or getting AIDS/frying your nervous system with heroin?
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,169	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

24th August 2007, 08:26 PM	#13
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	Originally Posted by quixotecoyote What was apparent to me from watching them was how she had to change focus when she switched to Christians in America. [exaggerated for emphasis] Day 1. Jews want to beat the hell out of Palestinians Day 2. Muslims want to beat the hell out of everyone else + each other. Day 3. Christians want to improperly influence environmental legislation. It was also interesting that she seemed to spend proportionately more time talking to 'sympathetic' Christians than she did in the other segments. I'll have to catch that installment. Of what I saw for the Jewish and Muslim ones she did seem to give a lot of time to those opposed to radical fundamentalism. One possibility is that Kach etc. want to create Greater Israel, and the Muslims envision a new Caliphate, while Christians in America are still trying, 35 years later, to overturn Roe v. Wade and get Creationism back into schools. Of course the latter have uncle Bushie doing their Crusader work for them so they might be more complacent on the territorial front.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

24th August 2007, 08:34 PM	#14
articulett Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Las Vegas, NV (and the ethers of cyberspace) Posts: 15,786	Originally Posted by sinclairmcevoy What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem. Because Religion doesn't teach our youth to be good people... it doesn't work as advertised. And secular societies are healthier. You don't need to agree with these facts, just provide an iota of evidence to the contrary. Religion offers no protection from the dysfunction you mention. There's nothing wrong with teaching the youth good values--that's why we have secularism. Besides, religionists all think they have better values than those who believe differently, but the facts don't bear this our at all. http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

24th August 2007, 08:35 PM	#15
articulett Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Las Vegas, NV (and the ethers of cyberspace) Posts: 15,786	Originally Posted by Bri In all three segments, I was struck by similarities among very devout people who were all previously secular. They all said that they felt that something was missing in their secular life, or that they felt their secular life didn't offer them moral boundaries. Of course, I know plenty of secular people who don't feel that way, but I found the trend towards religion from secularism interesting and wonder what the numbers are compared to those becoming more secular. -Bri Yes, it's the big lies told about non-believers to keep the faithful from questioning the big lie.

24th August 2007, 08:38 PM	#16
articulett Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Las Vegas, NV (and the ethers of cyberspace) Posts: 15,786	Originally Posted by Polaris Why exactly is sex to be equated with stomping someone's face in or getting AIDS/frying your nervous system with heroin? Well the commandments and scriptures don't forbid the latter--just stuff like not eating ham or not working on Sunday or worshiping the invisible guy with the right name... and no coveting. Pedophilia, torture, bigotry, oppression, dishonesty for god, threatening trusting people with hell-- that's fine of course. Those things didn't make the top ten no-no's in any of those fabulous examples of "morality".

24th August 2007, 08:49 PM	#17
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	Please stop spamming my thread.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

26th August 2007, 12:49 AM	#18
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,573	Originally Posted by Dumbledore I did not watch the series, but I think that it is interesting that they call them god warriors. Whats with that???! Well for the Jews and Muslims it was because the focus was on literal violence to defend or spread your fundamentalist beliefs. For the Christians there was a bit of that with more focus on fighting for a 'Christian State' in the US. I saw all 3 segments tonight, 6 hours, (while cleaning the house.) That was downright frightening. It's hard to say how prevalent the fundies are in relation to the masses but of the fundies they featured, it was pretty bad.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

26th August 2007, 12:55 AM	#19
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,573	Originally Posted by Bri I saw all three. I thought the series was well-done, and adequately portrayed the dangers of radical fundamentalism within any religion. Dumbledore, they are referred to as God's warriors because they (either figuratively or literally) have decided to fight in the name of their religion. Although the program did show that no religion is immune from radical fundamentalism, I don't personally think it adequately addressed the questions (possibly misconceptions?) of why there seem to be a disproportionate number of Muslim radical fundamentalists or why few mainstream Muslims seem to speak out against the radicals. -Bri I think they showed an equally radical Jewish crowd. I believe it just happens to be current events with those two groups. If it were a different slice of history we may have seen just as much Christian violence and no one speaking out. The Inquisition and witch trials come to mind. What was the most frightening is just how crazy fundies are at the moment. Couple that with the nuclear age and the Arab Israeli conflict and I think I need a bigger stockpile of disaster supplies. I was only planning for the 3 day earthquake aftermath. Maybe I should consider something on a bigger scale.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

26th August 2007, 01:05 AM	#20
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,573	Originally Posted by sinclairmcevoy What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem. Re the sex ed issues, that upset father they interviewed only gave his version of events. I doubt the class he said he sat in on was really telling his daughter that sex was fine if you just use a condom. I would imagine the actual class just didn't instill enough fear and distortion in the kids for that fundie's taste. The typical Evangelical call is for abstinence only education. Some Evangelicals claim teaching kids about condoms is the equivalent of teaching them how to sin and avoid God's wrath. They would rather the kids had the threat of HIV as a deterrent to sex. But research shows it is not a deterrent and only leads to more HIV, not less premarital sex. Our schools require the parent's permission to teach sex ed and they have it after regular school hours. At least that way someone else's idea of sin doesn't interfere with my child's education.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

26th August 2007, 01:09 AM	#21
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,573	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor I wonder if she'll do one on Bhudda's Beserkers next. How about the soon to be published "Krishna's Commandos." I bet the action figures will be a big seller. DR There actually is a lot of violence between the Hindus and Muslims currently. And Hinduism is practiced by more people than the Jewish religion currently. They should have included Hinduism but this is a Judeo-Christian centric society. It's too bad. It could have been very interesting.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

26th August 2007, 01:30 AM	#22
Drummer Scholar Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 50	Originally Posted by sinclairmcevoy What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem. Nothing wrong with that (except the sex bit, but let's not get into that right now), but religion doesn't teach that. Religion doesn't teach that drugs and violence are bad. It teaches blind obedience to a supreme being and it's rules, both reasonable and stupid. Youth that get taught out of the bible that drugs are bad have no clue why, apart from that God says you shouldn't. Since they are also taught that God/ Jesus forgives sin, what's to stop them then from a little experimenting and asking for forgiveness later on? And as for violence, you ought to read Sam Harris on that. Religions are hostile to people with different religions/ ideas about the world almost by definition. They automatically divide the world in us and them. Not exactly a basis for a peaceful society.

26th August 2007, 06:46 AM	#23
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310	Originally Posted by skeptigirl I think they showed an equally radical Jewish crowd. That's the problem with this type of reporting. In order to fill up the same amount of time, they showed as many radicals as they could, but there was no mention as to how many radicals there are among the non-radicals. There are few Jewish terrorists, as evidenced by the fact that they had to show the group that was unsuccessful at their attempt to blow up the girl's school (they were found guilty by an Israeli court are now spending their lives in an Israeli prison). A large portion of the show was about Jewish lobby groups and the strange alliance between those groups and fundamentalist Christians. So, I wouldn't say that they showed an equally radical Jewish crowd. Quote: I believe it just happens to be current events with those two groups. If it were a different slice of history we may have seen just as much Christian violence and no one speaking out. The Inquisition and witch trials come to mind. Yes, historically Christianity has been just as violent, if not moreso. Of course, there have been many violent radical groups throughout history, and not all of them justified their behavior by quoting verses from religious holy books, so I don't think the problem of radicalism is isolated to religion. -Bri
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310	Last edited by Bri; 26th August 2007 at 06:57 AM.

26th August 2007, 08:05 AM	#24
blobru Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 6,591	Originally Posted by Bri ... A large portion of the show was about Jewish lobby groups and the strange alliance between those groups and fundamentalist Christians. ... I only saw the Christian episode and was only half paying attention, but that was one of three segments that caught my eye/ear. I didn't quite catch the rationale though: was it the usual Israel is fulfillment of prophecy and one step closer to Rapture? I did get the impression the whole 2-hours had been pitched as an "America's Craazziest Christians" contest. If so, Ron Luce won the booby prize hands down. Targetting SanFran, Yankee 'Sodom & Gomorrah', with tearful 11-year-olds chanting "Our God is an awe-some Go-od" in an effort to what -- teach these kids hatred before they're secularised into believing there's no such thing as sin? -- downright pathetic. I'm sorry he hates himself because he had too much fun before he found God, but now to enlist 11-year-olds in his gay-bashing, self-hating crusade... made me want to throw up. For me the pick of the litter was the conservative theologian turned preacher who felt inspired to teach the 'radical' message that fighting poverty was the most important thing a Christian could do. And then losing half his congregation! It's not hard to imagine Christ nailed to the cross giving him a wink and a two thumbs up.
blobru Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 6,591	__________________ "Say to them, 'I am Nobody!'" -- Ulysses to the Cyclops "Never mind. I can't read." -- Hokulele to the Easter Bunny

26th August 2007, 08:13 AM	#25
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by modecom Having said that, I am sure that you, UnrepentantSinner, and the other religious apologists and christ punchers on this forum will find a way of defending the loony. More than a bit of a prejudiced comment, in the precise sense and in the extended sense, what what? _________ I saw the series, much of it; it was very good and obviously tried hard to give a good all-round picture. One interesting failure was a failure to give a good overview of mainstreams, instead the program focused on fundies and on opposition to fundies within their own religions; a pic of the mainstreams may well have been more boring in comparison, but would have been useful for a rounded pic. All in all, it was very worthwhile watching it, and it gave a useful sense of history and timelines too, as well as of interplays, so necessary to understanding escalations.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

26th August 2007, 08:19 AM	#26
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310	Originally Posted by blobru I only saw the Christian episode and was only half paying attention, but that was one of three segments that caught my eye/ear. I didn't quite catch the rationale though: was it the usual Israel is fulfillment of prophecy and one step closer to Rapture? Yup. Truly bizarre situation, because the fundamentalist Christians believe that although the Jews are necessary to fulfill the prophecy, the Jews are going to go to hell if they don't convert to Christianity. The Jews, being the practical folk they are, gladly take their money and aren't overly worried about going to hell. Quote: I'm sorry he hates himself because he had too much fun before he found God, but now to enlist 11-year-olds in his gay-bashing, self-hating crusade... made me want to throw up. You and many others, I'm afraid. I've said it before: I don't care what others believe as long as those beliefs don't include interfering with my beliefs. Clearly, a lot of Christians do want to impose their beliefs on others. Quote: For me the pick of the litter was the conservative theologian turned preacher who felt inspired to teach the 'radical' message that fighting poverty was the most important thing a Christian could do. And then losing half his congregation! It's not hard to imagine Christ nailed to the cross giving him a wink and a two thumbs up. I agree. That segment was pretty interesting. I was shocked that his congregation was so put off by the suggestion that Jesus' message may have been primarily about improving the world rather than imposing their beliefs on others that he lost half of his congregation! The good news is that his congregation soon doubled back to what it had been previously, so there is some hope. -Bri
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310

26th August 2007, 08:25 AM	#27
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310	Originally Posted by Gurdur One interesting failure was a failure to give a good overview of mainstreams, instead the program focused on fundies and on opposition to fundies within their own religions; a pic of the mainstreams may well have been more boring in comparison, but would have been useful for a rounded pic. I agree, but the subject of "God's Warriors" was the fundamentalists and radicals, so it makes sense that they didn't spend a lot of time talking about the mainstream. That said, I don't think they were very clear on what the shows were actually about, so this may have been missed by a lot of people who may now have a rather inaccurate view of the religions (particularly if they only saw one of them, like the Islam one). I also think a better indication of the relative numbers of fundamentalists, radicals, and mainstream believers of each religion would have been useful and provided a more accurate picture. -Bri
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310

26th August 2007, 08:44 AM	#28
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Let's not forget the crusades. The war with Iraq is the most recent crusade, if we need something current.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

26th August 2007, 07:32 PM	#29
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	Originally Posted by skeptigirl There actually is a lot of violence between the Hindus and Muslims currently. And Hinduism is practiced by more people than the Jewish religion currently. They should have included Hinduism but this is a Judeo-Christian centric society. It's too bad. It could have been very interesting. That is a very salient observation but I think the focus was on the Abrahamic religions which would make the focus "Western" more than Judeo-Christian for the series. Originally Posted by Gurdur More than a bit of a prejudiced comment, in the precise sense and in the extended sense, what what? It's either an ironic or bizarre comment based on whether that poster was parodying our more virulent God-Haters or agreeing with them.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

26th August 2007, 07:34 PM	#30
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	Originally Posted by Complexity Let's not forget the crusades. The war with Iraq is the most recent crusade, if we need something current. I'm guessing you didn't watch the series or have any idea of what the topic it investigated is.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

26th August 2007, 08:16 PM	#31
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	I watched five minutes of the Jewish segment. That was enough. The second line of my post is most relevant to the series. Do you have a point?
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

27th August 2007, 12:58 AM	#32
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,573	Sometimes a program is intended to be about the fundamentalist extremists and not about Jews and Muslims and Christians. I don't recall any inference these people represented the majority of any group.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

27th August 2007, 05:26 AM	#33
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	Originally Posted by Complexity Do you have a point? Coming from someone who offers a context free "Don't forget the Crusades" (and no, your Iraq comment didn't add value... though you did have a point ) this question is dripping with irony. I'll also note that I posted this earlier. Originally Posted by me One possibility is that Kach etc. want to create Greater Israel, and the Muslims envision a new Caliphate, while Christians in America are still trying, 35 years later, to overturn Roe v. Wade and get Creationism back into schools. Of course the latter have uncle Bushie doing their Crusader work for them so they might be more complacent on the territorial front.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

27th August 2007, 06:26 AM	#34
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Sigh... I keep forgetting that some people need to have it spelled out. The context was this thread, especially posts 9 and 19. Having come up with the example of the current war as a crusade (congratulations, by the way), are you pretending that you didn't understand what I wrote in my post, or are you merely distressed that I didn't use some unnecessary words to pad the idea? By the way, when you asked someone to, "Please stop spamming my thread.", you erred. No one had been spamming your thread. I don't think you know what the word means. It isn't your thread. You started it, but you don't own it. Don't be a control freak. Nothing else at this time.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

27th August 2007, 06:59 AM	#35
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	Let me, instead of spelling it out for you use an acronym - LTFU. And Artie was spamming this thread because she's been spewing the same s*** across a number of threads and forums which in my book is spam. How about in the future you use the quote... or.. .. even the multi-quote function and quote those posts you wish to comment on rather than a tangental, stream of conciousness - "but what about X" post?
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.