Eqality beyond Humanity?

JJR · 24th August 2007, 09:12 AM

Quote:

The Great Ape Project: Equality Beyond Humanity
By Paola Cavalieri, Peter Singer

A compelling and revolutionary work that calls for the immediate extension of our human rights to the great apes.The Great Ape Project looks forward to a new stage in the development of the community of equals, whereby the great apes-chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans-will actually receive many of the same protections and rights that are already accorded to humans.This profound collection of thirty-one essays by the world's most distinguished observers of free-living apes make up a uniquely satisfying whole, blending observation and interpretation in a highly persuasive case for a complete reassessment of the moral status of our closest kin

A true head scratcher

Quote:

April 1998:
Koko's First Interspecies Internet Chat

On April 29, 1998, Koko participated in the first interspecies web chat in internet history, hosted by AOL.. This introduced millions of people to the idea that the internet could be used to learn about the perspective of other species directly, especially endangered species. Chat transcript.

Today: Koko has inspired many students across the nation to do National History Day projects focusing on the theme Communication in History: the Key to Understanding.

More fun than a barrel of monkees!!

Should apes be treated as equals? Koko is supposed to have an I.Q. of 76.

Darth Rotor · 24th August 2007, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by JJR

A true head scratcher

More fun than a barrel of monkees!!

Should apes be treated as equals? Koko is supposed to have an I.Q. of 76.

We had a lovely discussion on this back in February.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=75969

EGarrett began the thread, and much fun ensued.

Enjoy the read.

DR

JJR · 24th August 2007, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by AgingYoung

I will not have some monkey looking at my daughter like that!

Gene

wtf?? Lol.

Charlie Monoxide · 24th August 2007, 09:46 AM

On a few occasions I've heard creationist proclaim "we did NOT evolve from monkeys". I usually point out to them, "you're absolutely right, we evolved along with them, but we do share a common ancestor".

Just to digress slightly, the creationist will also point out that the "theory of evolution" is just that, a "theory". I would then agree with them saying "absolutely!, but it's a theory in the scientific sense, whereas it proposes a robust model that is falsifiable with lots and lots of evidence for proof and more being found every year. Just to get a condescending dig in, I would add "you do know the difference between an accepted scientific "theory" definition and a "theory" as a educated guess definition, right?"

Charlie (loves agreeing with creationists) Monoxide

Darth Rotor · 24th August 2007, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide

On a few occasions I've heard creationist proclaim "we did NOT evolve from monkeys". I usually point out to them, "you're absolutely right, we evolved along with them, but we do share a common ancestor".

Just to digress slightly, the creationist will also point out that the "theory of evolution" is just that, a "theory". I would then agree with them saying "absolutely!, but it's a theory in the scientific sense, whereas it proposes a robust model that is falsifiable with lots and lots of evidence for proof and more being found every year. Just to get a condescending dig in, I would add "you do know the difference between an accepted scientific "theory" definition and a "theory" as a educated guess definition, right?"

Charlie (loves agreeing with creationists) Monoxide

To walk out onto your branch of the topic, there is growing evidence that the family tree that led to homo erectus and homo sapiens is more a shrubbery than a tree. Saw some stuff in Sci Am and other periodicals on this lately. They keep getting more interesting puzzles to solve with each find out there in East Africa, it seems, and are coming to see that a number of the homo XXXX species were alive at overlapping times and eras. What they have yet to resolve is why homo sapiens is all that is left.

DR

JJR · 24th August 2007, 10:09 AM

This thread is making me go ape. Think I'll run around the house naked.

drkitten · 24th August 2007, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

To walk out onto your branch of the topic, there is growing evidence that the family tree that led to homo erectus and homo sapiens is more a shrubbery than a tree. Saw some stuff in Sci Am and other periodicals on this lately. They keep getting more interesting puzzles to solve with each find out there in East Africa, it seems, and are coming to see that a number of the homo XXXX species were alive at overlapping times and eras. What they have yet to resolve is why homo sapiens is all that is left.

The Greys came and took the rest away. We are the descendants of the only ones who couldn't find our starship tickets.

Says a lot about us, doesn't it?

tsg · 24th August 2007, 11:07 AM

I say we let them vote. They can't possibly do a worse job than we have.

Darth Rotor · 24th August 2007, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by drkitten

The Greys came and took the rest away. We are the descendants of the only ones who couldn't find our starship tickets.

Says a lot about us, doesn't it?

Drat, I missed the Sci Fi reference, must be a book I either forgot or didn't read.

DR

Beerina · 24th August 2007, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by tsg

I say we let them vote. They can't possibly do a worse job than we have.

Wait until they learn they can vote ape-fare from us.

tsg · 24th August 2007, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Wait until they learn they can vote ape-fare from us.

I, for one, welcome our new ape overlords.

Charlie Monoxide · 24th August 2007, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

To walk out onto your branch of the topic, there is growing evidence that the family tree that led to homo erectus and homo sapiens is more a shrubbery than a tree. Saw some stuff in Sci Am and other periodicals on this lately. They keep getting more interesting puzzles to solve with each find out there in East Africa, it seems, and are coming to see that a number of the homo XXXX species were alive at overlapping times and eras. What they have yet to resolve is why homo sapiens is all that is left.

DR

Right you are sir! I might have heard the same thing or some reconstituted version. It seems that it was thought homo habilus (handy man) evolved to (or maybe from, this is off the top of my head) Australopithecus africanus (see http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanor...abdebate.html). Now it seems they might be different species altogether.

It's very fascinating stuff. Much more interesting than attributing it to some old testament god.

It'd be nice if there was conclusive evidence found ....

Charlie (at least in my lifetime) Monoxide

Darth Rotor · 24th August 2007, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide

It's very fascinating stuff. Much more interesting than attributing it to some old testament god.

It probably attracts a lot of grant money, if nothing else.

Also makes for neat Discovery Channel episodes when they present new stuff to the adoring public in suitably packaged form.

DR

JJR · 24th August 2007, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by tsg

I, for one, welcome our new ape overlords.

Ooo where's Charleton Heston when you need him?

Jeff Corey · 24th August 2007, 08:26 PM

..

JJR · 27th August 2007, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

..

Loss Leader · 27th August 2007, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

What they have yet to resolve is why homo sapiens is all that is left.

In my mind, the easiest question in all of anthropology.

We killed them.

They reminded us that we were akin to animals. They looked different. They made us feel bad about ourselves. We hunted them down and we killed them.

How do I know?

Imagine that when World War II took place, instead of Jews there were Neanderthal communities spread throughout Europe.

We're not the "fittest," we're the most bloodthirsty. Killing people we don't like, that's what makes us human.

Edit: The above represents my opinion only and is not any better supported by the archeological record than any competing theory.

Incidentally, kudos on using "homo sapiens" as a singular noun. As with a lot of french/latin words, the ending "s" is frequentl cut off by people who mistake it for the "s" that makes a noun plural.

JJR · 27th August 2007, 08:22 PM

We probably did. Today, killing is a last resort . . . but operant conditioning with increasing intensity is not. Not at all. If killing is the only way to achieve the goals of competition, so be it but that's the last method used.

Or combinantions occur. It varys.

Almo · 29th August 2007, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by JJR

Today, killing is a last resort . . .

Really?

Doesn't seem like it to me... Perhaps for you and me, but not for governments.

JJR · 31st August 2007, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Almo

Really?

Doesn't seem like it to me... Perhaps for you and me, but not for governments.

Well . . . what I meant was, "Industrial scale murder is the last resort". I never said . . . creative killing was above some governments. Or assassination, etc.

I wish the CIA had assassinated Soddom Hussein instead of blasting Iraq. Of course, I can say that and still want to nuke them.

That's why I'm voting Republican for the next President. Nuke power, man.

24th August 2007, 09:12 AM	#1
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Eqality beyond Humanity? Quote: The Great Ape Project: Equality Beyond Humanity By Paola Cavalieri, Peter Singer A compelling and revolutionary work that calls for the immediate extension of our human rights to the great apes.The Great Ape Project looks forward to a new stage in the development of the community of equals, whereby the great apes-chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans-will actually receive many of the same protections and rights that are already accorded to humans.This profound collection of thirty-one essays by the world's most distinguished observers of free-living apes make up a uniquely satisfying whole, blending observation and interpretation in a highly persuasive case for a complete reassessment of the moral status of our closest kin A true head scratcher Quote: April 1998: Koko's First Interspecies Internet Chat On April 29, 1998, Koko participated in the first interspecies web chat in internet history, hosted by AOL.. This introduced millions of people to the idea that the internet could be used to learn about the perspective of other species directly, especially endangered species. Chat transcript. Today: Koko has inspired many students across the nation to do National History Day projects focusing on the theme Communication in History: the Key to Understanding. More fun than a barrel of monkees!! Should apes be treated as equals? Koko is supposed to have an I.Q. of 76.

24th August 2007, 09:19 AM	#2
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 29,563	Originally Posted by JJR A true head scratcher More fun than a barrel of monkees!! Should apes be treated as equals? Koko is supposed to have an I.Q. of 76. We had a lovely discussion on this back in February. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=75969 EGarrett began the thread, and much fun ensued. Enjoy the read. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon__"... they don't make pills for being a self-absorbed twit. --bookitty

24th August 2007, 09:46 AM	#4
Charlie Monoxide Wag Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 2,682	On a few occasions I've heard creationist proclaim "we did NOT evolve from monkeys". I usually point out to them, "you're absolutely right, we evolved along with them, but we do share a common ancestor". Just to digress slightly, the creationist will also point out that the "theory of evolution" is just that, a "theory". I would then agree with them saying "absolutely!, but it's a theory in the scientific sense, whereas it proposes a robust model that is falsifiable with lots and lots of evidence for proof and more being found every year. Just to get a condescending dig in, I would add "you do know the difference between an accepted scientific "theory" definition and a "theory" as a educated guess definition, right?" Charlie (loves agreeing with creationists) Monoxide
	__________________ Major General Wag of JREF

24th August 2007, 10:05 AM	#5
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 29,563	Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide On a few occasions I've heard creationist proclaim "we did NOT evolve from monkeys". I usually point out to them, "you're absolutely right, we evolved along with them, but we do share a common ancestor". Just to digress slightly, the creationist will also point out that the "theory of evolution" is just that, a "theory". I would then agree with them saying "absolutely!, but it's a theory in the scientific sense, whereas it proposes a robust model that is falsifiable with lots and lots of evidence for proof and more being found every year. Just to get a condescending dig in, I would add "you do know the difference between an accepted scientific "theory" definition and a "theory" as a educated guess definition, right?" Charlie (loves agreeing with creationists) Monoxide To walk out onto your branch of the topic, there is growing evidence that the family tree that led to homo erectus and homo sapiens is more a shrubbery than a tree. Saw some stuff in Sci Am and other periodicals on this lately. They keep getting more interesting puzzles to solve with each find out there in East Africa, it seems, and are coming to see that a number of the homo XXXX species were alive at overlapping times and eras. What they have yet to resolve is why homo sapiens is all that is left. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon__"... they don't make pills for being a self-absorbed twit. --bookitty

24th August 2007, 11:07 AM	#8
tsg Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Location: Location: Posts: 6,771	I say we let them vote. They can't possibly do a worse job than we have.
	__________________ Being offended by someone questioning your beliefs is a sign that you should be questioning them. In the beginning there was nothing. And the Lord said "Let There Be Light!" And still there was nothing, but at least now you could see it.

24th August 2007, 09:30 AM	#3
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Originally Posted by AgingYoung I will not have some monkey looking at my daughter like that! Gene wtf?? Lol.

24th August 2007, 10:09 AM	#6
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	This thread is making me go ape. Think I'll run around the house naked.

24th August 2007, 10:26 AM	#7
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 19,580	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor To walk out onto your branch of the topic, there is growing evidence that the family tree that led to homo erectus and homo sapiens is more a shrubbery than a tree. Saw some stuff in Sci Am and other periodicals on this lately. They keep getting more interesting puzzles to solve with each find out there in East Africa, it seems, and are coming to see that a number of the homo XXXX species were alive at overlapping times and eras. What they have yet to resolve is why homo sapiens is all that is left. The Greys came and took the rest away. We are the descendants of the only ones who couldn't find our starship tickets. Says a lot about us, doesn't it?

24th August 2007, 11:09 AM	#9
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 29,563	Originally Posted by drkitten The Greys came and took the rest away. We are the descendants of the only ones who couldn't find our starship tickets. Says a lot about us, doesn't it? Drat, I missed the Sci Fi reference, must be a book I either forgot or didn't read. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon__"... they don't make pills for being a self-absorbed twit. --bookitty

24th August 2007, 01:03 PM	#10
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 16,229	Originally Posted by tsg I say we let them vote. They can't possibly do a worse job than we have. Wait until they learn they can vote ape-fare from us.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

24th August 2007, 01:15 PM	#11
tsg Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Location: Location: Posts: 6,771	Originally Posted by Beerina Wait until they learn they can vote ape-fare from us. I, for one, welcome our new ape overlords.
	__________________ Being offended by someone questioning your beliefs is a sign that you should be questioning them. In the beginning there was nothing. And the Lord said "Let There Be Light!" And still there was nothing, but at least now you could see it.

24th August 2007, 02:45 PM	#12
Charlie Monoxide Wag Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 2,682	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor To walk out onto your branch of the topic, there is growing evidence that the family tree that led to homo erectus and homo sapiens is more a shrubbery than a tree. Saw some stuff in Sci Am and other periodicals on this lately. They keep getting more interesting puzzles to solve with each find out there in East Africa, it seems, and are coming to see that a number of the homo XXXX species were alive at overlapping times and eras. What they have yet to resolve is why homo sapiens is all that is left. DR Right you are sir! I might have heard the same thing or some reconstituted version. It seems that it was thought homo habilus (handy man) evolved to (or maybe from, this is off the top of my head) Australopithecus africanus (see http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanor...abdebate.html). Now it seems they might be different species altogether. It's very fascinating stuff. Much more interesting than attributing it to some old testament god. It'd be nice if there was conclusive evidence found .... Charlie (at least in my lifetime) Monoxide
	__________________ Major General Wag of JREF

24th August 2007, 02:51 PM	#13
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 29,563	Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide It's very fascinating stuff. Much more interesting than attributing it to some old testament god. It probably attracts a lot of grant money, if nothing else. Also makes for neat Discovery Channel episodes when they present new stuff to the adoring public in suitably packaged form. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon__"... they don't make pills for being a self-absorbed twit. --bookitty

24th August 2007, 08:01 PM	#14
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Originally Posted by tsg I, for one, welcome our new ape overlords. Ooo where's Charleton Heston when you need him?

24th August 2007, 08:26 PM	#15
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 10,343	..
	Last edited by Jeff Corey; 24th August 2007 at 08:31 PM.

27th August 2007, 06:54 PM	#16
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Originally Posted by Jeff Corey ..

27th August 2007, 07:03 PM	#17
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Tagger Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 7,200	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor What they have yet to resolve is why homo sapiens is all that is left. In my mind, the easiest question in all of anthropology. We killed them. They reminded us that we were akin to animals. They looked different. They made us feel bad about ourselves. We hunted them down and we killed them. How do I know? Imagine that when World War II took place, instead of Jews there were Neanderthal communities spread throughout Europe. We're not the "fittest," we're the most bloodthirsty. Killing people we don't like, that's what makes us human. Edit: The above represents my opinion only and is not any better supported by the archeological record than any competing theory. Incidentally, kudos on using "homo sapiens" as a singular noun. As with a lot of french/latin words, the ending "s" is frequentl cut off by people who mistake it for the "s" that makes a noun plural.
	__________________ I iz da rite property o' da Jackalgirl - she-witch, spice-taker, fremen and worm-rider. Her name is a kill word. Her dog's name is a very nasty Indian burn word. Death to House Harkonnin! How the heck am I ever going to get into your sig, now? - LashL Last edited by Loss Leader; 27th August 2007 at 07:08 PM.

27th August 2007, 08:22 PM	#18
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	We probably did. Today, killing is a last resort . . . but operant conditioning with increasing intensity is not. Not at all. If killing is the only way to achieve the goals of competition, so be it but that's the last method used. Or combinantions occur. It varys.

29th August 2007, 10:46 AM	#19
Almo Masterblazer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 3,564	Originally Posted by JJR Today, killing is a last resort . . . Really? Doesn't seem like it to me... Perhaps for you and me, but not for governments.
	__________________ Almo! My Blog My boardgame "Linkage" "God may not play dice with the universe, but something strange is going on with the prime numbers." — Paul Erdős "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia

31st August 2007, 03:18 PM	#20
JJR Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: The inner circle of thought Posts: 563	Originally Posted by Almo Really? Doesn't seem like it to me... Perhaps for you and me, but not for governments. Well . . . what I meant was, "Industrial scale murder is the last resort". I never said . . . creative killing was above some governments. Or assassination, etc. I wish the CIA had assassinated Soddom Hussein instead of blasting Iraq. Of course, I can say that and still want to nuke them. That's why I'm voting Republican for the next President. Nuke power, man.