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#1 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,077
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This story is about a psychic who was consulted after exhausting the efforts of a search party. The article is over two years old but I think it's typical of news stories where a psychic was consulted to assist authorities.
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He has also been a guest on Coast to Coast AM:
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http://www.normpratt.com/ I just found a thread about Norm Pratt: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=34112 |
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#2 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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#3 |
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Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 17,324
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Just done a quick search using Google on Norm Pratt.
1. Could only find one case where he could claim success and that has been mentioned. 2. If he was any good where are the other cases? Nothing is mentioned about any cases on his web site. 3. Found one case where he has not been successful Lisa Marie |
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dddffffpppqqqq Want to use your computer for something that will make society better? See this thread for details Folding@home |
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#4 |
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Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 28,831
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__________________
Are you an ex-Truther? Please share your story. ~ The Australasian Skeptics Forum. |
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#5 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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#6 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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The police apparently did discover the body on their own.
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-Bri |
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#7 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,077
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The article didn't say that police had already searched the area where she was found. It said that they had searched the railway line where she was last seen. It didn't really indicate whether the police had searched other surrounding areas but it would seem logical that if the police had already searched the area in which her body was found, the reporter would have mentioned it in the article. It would say something like, "The police had combed the area where the body was found but their first attempt to locate the body had revealed nothing." I don't think I would leave out that detail if I was the reporter.
It doesn't sound like he's in it for the money according to his website:
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#8 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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#9 |
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Village Idiot.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Green Mountains
Posts: 6,328
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I don't think that necessarily follows at all. Police are often in position where a case hits a standstill but they still need to assure the public they're doing everything they can to solve it. So they might call in a psychic to give the impression they're willing to try anything, however remote the chances of success. Or they might be trying to shut up the segment of the public that supports psychic detectives. Or they might even be trying to flush out a suspect who might believe in psychics and therefore be scared into making a false move. From what I've read, most law enforcement professionals don't seem to place a lot of faith in psychics.
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Another Shameless Googlebomb Plug for www.stopsylvia.com |
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#10 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Location: Location:
Posts: 6,771
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__________________
Being offended by someone questioning your beliefs is a sign that you should be questioning them. In the beginning there was nothing. And the Lord said "Let There Be Light!" And still there was nothing, but at least now you could see it. |
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#11 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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The police would prefer to solve crimes on their own, and not with the help of psychics. If they call in a psychic when they have a good chance of solving a crime without one, the psychic will likely receive credit if the crime is solved, which makes the police look less than competent. Also, a psychic being credited with solving a crime will likely result in a public clamor for that psychic to be used again which -- if the psychic is worthless -- will create an unnecessary headache for the police.
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#12 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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I didn't say it did.
What I said was that the article does not indicate that Pratt ever told the police to search where the body was finally found. The only thing the article states Pratt actually did was tell them to STOP looking where they had already looked! Well -- duh!
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I imagine the following conversation: The article doesn't indicate that Pratt told them where to look at all. I would think that would be a detail that would have been reported if he had. So, the article actually doesn't indicate that Pratt was of any help at all other than to tell police not to look where they had already looked (which I'm guessing they might have figured out on their own).
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-Bri |
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#13 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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According to the article:
"Police in Nelson, B.C., have found the body of a young woman who disappeared last March, and they credit a local psychic for pointing them in the right direction. Kimberley Anne Sarjeant was last seen walking alone in a popular hiking spot near Nelson. "Police say they used every tool at their disposal to try to find her, including search dogs, helicopters and infrared heat detectors. "When none of the standard techniques seemed to work, Sgt. Steve Bank called on a local psychic for help. "Police had already searched along an abandoned railway line where the 23-year-old woman was last seen. "But local psychic Norm Pratt steered police away from that trail. About a kilometre into nearby woods, police found Sarjeant's clothes. Her remains were discovered in the same area. "'Without the use of the psychic, I think I'd still be looking for this person,' Bank said Wednesday." It doesn't matter whether he is or isn't. The fact is that, according to Sgt. Bank, the case was solved because of Pratt's involvement. |
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#14 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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I read the article. Nowhere does it say that Pratt did anything other than tell police to stop looking where they had already (unsuccessfully) looked.
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Perhaps Sgt. Bank believes in psychics and decided to involve Pratt against the advice of others, and then felt compelled to justify his decision. Perhaps Sgt. Bank believes that the police would have continued to search the same locations over and over again rather than looking elsewhere without Pratt's suggestion. It seems like if Pratt actually did something psychic to help solve the crime, the article (or Sgt. Bank) would have mentioned it. -Bri |
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#15 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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The article makes four fundamental points:
(1) For 10 months, the police searched in vain for a missing woman, using "every tool at their disposal to try to find her, including search dogs, helicopters and infrared heat detectors." (2) "When none of the standard techniques seemed to work, Sgt. Steve Bank called on a local psychic for help." (3) While the police had focused their search "along an abandoned railway line where the 23-year-old woman was last seen . . . local psychic Norm Pratt steered police away from that trail." (4) According to Sgt. Bank: "Without the use of the psychic, I think I'd still be looking for this person." So, the search was going nowhere until Pratt steered police in a different direction. And it wasn't as if Sgt. Bank immediately called on Pratt -- rather, Bank waited 10 months. If you are not going to credit a psychic here with assisting the police, what would it take for you to do that? |
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#16 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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I don't care if they kept searching in the same place for 10 years without finding her. It wouldn't take any psychic ability to suggest that they search elsewhere.
Nowhere in the article does it say that Pratt told them where to find the body. If this is the best evidence that Pratt is psychic, I'd say it's much more likely that he's not. Did Pratt assist the police somehow? Maybe. Would they have found the body without Pratt? Probably, assuming that he didn't tell them where it was. Did Pratt use any psychic abilities to aid the police? The evidence would not indicate that to be the case. -Bri |
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#17 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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#18 |
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Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 17,324
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Irrelevant. However drugs and other medical procedures have been proved to work via double blind experiments.
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__________________
dddffffpppqqqq Want to use your computer for something that will make society better? See this thread for details Folding@home |
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#19 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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Silly analogy. The issue is whether or not there is evidence that Pratt used any psychic abilities to aid the police. There is evidence from double-blind tests that doctors use medicine to cure illness.
Let's say a doctor asks a patient what the patient had previously tried to cure their illness. The patient tells the doctor they had tried aspirin. The doctor responds, "Well, try something else," but won't specify what the patient should try. Now, the patient (taking the doctor's advice) goes to another doctor who gives the patient antibiotics, and the patient recovers. I'm not sure I would attribute the recovery to the first doctor's medical abilities. -Bri |
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#20 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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I doubt that anyone will argue with the proposition that "doctors use medicine to cure illness."
![]() But you can't say definitively that the antibiotics cured the patient. It seems logical, but it's not absolute proof. So why apply an absolute proof standard to psychics? |
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#21 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,236
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Just to be clear, the question is, "is it necessarily through paranormal methods that psychics assist police?" The difference that you perceive in proof requirements is that there is independent evidence that antibiotics have a pharmacologic effect. There is no independent evidence of paranormal effects. When taking alternate explanations into consideration, the possibility that the antibiotics cured the patient is still reasonable. When taking alternate explanations into consideration, "magic" is unreasonable.
Linda |
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God:a capricious creative or controlling force said to be the subject of a religion. Evidence is anything that tends to make a proposition more or less true.-Loss Leader SCAM will now be referred to as DIM (Demonstrably Ineffective Medicine) Look how nicely I'm not reminding you you're dumb.-Happy Bunny When I give an example, do not assume I am excluding every other possible example. Thank you. |
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#22 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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I should hope not, since evidence clearly indicates that doctors use medicine to cure illness.
Of course, my point is that the evidence does not indicate that the recovery of the patient can be attributed to the the first doctor's medical abilities, nor does it provide any indication that the first doctor even has any medical abilities. Just as the evidence does not indicate that the recovery of the body can be attributed to Pratt's psychic abilities, nor does it provide any indication that Pratt has any psychic abilities.
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No, I simply said that the evidence in favor of psychic ability must outweigh the evidence against psychic ability. In this case, the evidence doesn't seem to indicate that Pratt has psychic ability at all, much less that psychic ability was used to help find the body. -Bri |
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#23 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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#24 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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Your question wasn't directed at me, but it would take a lot of evidence for me to think a psychic had assisted the police using psychic powers, given that there is very little evidence of psychic powers and plenty of evidence against it.
However, we're just talking about whether this particular report constitutes evidence of psychic powers being used to assist police, and it doesn't. -Bri |
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#25 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: State of Yo
Posts: 1,497
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Speaking for myself only, I don't want to see police work being interfered with by psychics any more than I want drug companies testing new drugs on humans before they have shown any benefit in lab trials. Police work is too important to be so trivialized.
I would like to see a psychic, any psychic, show in a controlled study that they have any of their so claimed powers. First things first. |
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#26 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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#27 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,424
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__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick |
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#28 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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#29 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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I find that funny. There are few psychics who only claim a 30% success rate. Most claim well over 85%. A 30% success rate wouldn't be very impressive, would be lower success than a cold reader could do in most cases, and probably wouldn't even make sense considering that most claim to be getting their information straight from God, an angel, a spirit guide, an ancient mystic, aliens, a dead relative, or some other entity who the psychic has reason to believe knows the answers to the questions asked.
Personally, I think it might be useful in a missing person's case if the psychic could prove in a controlled, double-blind test that they have a 10% success rate of finding missing people. Of course, none have ever even gotten above chance in a controlled, double-blind test. -Bri |
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#30 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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#31 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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#32 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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#33 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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The post to which you were responding from YoPopa suggested that in order to avoid wasting time and resources, psychics should be given a controlled test to demonstrate that they can do what they say they can do before police consider consulting them to help solve crimes. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
How does your question "Would Norm Pratt have been credited with a hit in the missing woman case under discussion here?" address that point given that it wasn't a controlled test? How does whether or not I can name a "psychic detective" who has agreed to be tested address that point? Rodney, you really seem to be trying hard to make a point, but I don't really get what your point is exactly. Care to state it outright, or at least address the points others have made that you seem to take exception to? -Bri |
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#34 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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#35 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,942
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The point is simple: To my knowledge, no psychic detective has ever been tested under controlled conditions, and I believe the reason is that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to devise an objective protocol. So, it appears to me that the only way psychic detectives can be evaluated is to look at their track records. However, if you or someone else here can devise an objective protocol for testing psychic detectives, bring it on.
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#36 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,077
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I've already mentioned Alex Tanous.
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http://www.alextanous.org/
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#37 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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No psychic detective would have a "track record" that would be meaningful in any way. We've already discussed why the report in question (which is likely the best example you can come up with) can't even be counted as a success. As far as I can tell, Pratt has a 0% success record. If you really want to use their track record as a determining factor, then police definitely shouldn't use psychics at all.
That said, it is almost certain that a protocol could be devised to test a psychic's claims. Of course, the protocol used would depend on exactly what the claim of an individual psychic is. There is likely no one test that will work for all psychics since they each claim to be able to do different things with different degrees of success. -Bri |
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#38 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,310
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#39 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,077
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The only thing I've been able to find is on the biographical page of his website:
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#40 |
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Muse
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In the happy state of denial
Posts: 607
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With all the psychics around jumping in on missing persons cases, sooner or later we should expect something that could be called a hit, just by chanse alone. If he and other psychics could do it again and again, then it would be interesting.
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