[Ed.] Losing my religion

[Mid]

This thread is inspired by this one if people want to check it out:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=91536

The title of this thread may be a bit miss leading as I was brought up in the CofE/methodists and stopped voluntarily going to church when I was about 8 (but if you can't have at least one thread named after an REM song then really what's the point of living? ).

Anyway I'm aware that there's a number of ex believers in the more firmer sort of religion such as ex evangelical Christians, ex Mormons, ex creationists etc. on the forum and I thought it would be interesting to hear a bit about their experiences. In particular I thought maybe a description of their faith based experiences and how they came to change their minds would be enlightening, and then people could maybe ask some questions about it.

Now I realise some people have made these types of posts before but I couldn't find a thread for a number of posters (although my search foo may well be lacking), so if you made this type of post before feel free to cut and paste into the thread. I look forward to hearing more about it.

[Mobyseven]

And lo, the Divine Spelling Stalin did decendeth unto the thread. And he spake unto Mid, and he sayeth, "Why didst thee spell thine title, 'Loose' and not 'Lose'?" For that was a real pet peeve of the Divine Spelling Stalin. And thus Mid was smoten. And it was good.

[Sinisterdan]

I was born and raised Catholic – ranging at times from moderate to kind of creepy.

I’m 36 now, and have been an agnostic and/or an atheist for about 10 years. When I was around 20, I was pretty in to the Jeebus. This coincided with when I went away to finish my undergraduate work. Prior to that I had never been particularly religious, I had just gone through the motions because it was acculturated to me since my baptism at the tender age of 13 weeks.

When I went away for school, I met some people who were very intellectual and very, very Catholic. For someone like me, who enjoys academics and debate, Catholicism has a pretty good lure. Millennia of scholarship, dozens of really gifted philosophers throughout the history of the Church, etc… In retrospect, we spent a lot more time arguing theology then we did actually being practicing Catholics…

It was a lot of fun, and as religion does, it made that fun seem more important. Faith, after all is a very reassuring thing, particularly when you think that it is also educating you at the same time. The people I traveled with socially were also very strong academics, doctoral students, two associate professors and a number of younger students like me.

Also, and this was important for me, Catholicism is pretty low key. There wasn’t ever anything remotely resembling a boisterous tent revival and I was free to just do the spiritual; stuff in private. The intellectual was public, the spiritual was private; effective combination. Combined with the history and the really nifty buildings, it all seemed so reasonable.

I think I mistook that experience for a religious experience – looking back I’m quite sure that I never really had one, but I’m equally sure that I really, really wanted one.

This lasted for about five years, until I finished my Master’s degree and moved back East. When I pursued these topics on my own, I found that the flow of good conversation could no longer cover up for the questions for which I could find no decent answers. Eventually I drifted away and became a very weak agnostic, always holding the door open for my catholic Jeebus.

In a conversation with my oldest brother, he asked me if I honestly believed that if had I been outside the tomb on the day of the resurrection, did I really think that anything extraordinary would have happened? Would I have seen a miracle, or the more likely scenario of a non-event that would later be transformed into myth?

From there it was a pretty quick slide into full agnosticism and later into atheism.

It took a while, but I don’t miss it a bit. Now that I have two kids, I’m more than a little relieved. I’ll still get them to read Aquinas (eventually) but from a rather different perspective.

[Mid]

D'oh! To any passing mod please correct the thread title, pretty please.

[TV's Frank]

What's so wrong with tightening your religion?

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by Mobyseven

And lo, the Divine Spelling Stalin did decendeth unto the thread. And he spake unto Mid, and he sayeth, "Why didst thee spell thine title, 'Loose' and not 'Lose'?" For that was a real pet peeve of the Divine Spelling Stalin. And thus Mid was smoten. And it was good.

Oddly, this is one of the most common misspellings of skeptics here. I don't know if it comes from dealing with Loose Change folks or if it is just a natural keyboard reaction to type a double "o". Maybe it's because of the U-sound in the pronunciation (as opposed to rose, hose, dose, pose...) But I've seen it so frequently I hardly even blink anymore.

(Frankly I think that song would sound better if it said, "That's me in the spotlight, hosing my religion.")

[Bikewer]

Oooh! Oooh! Mr. Stalin! Mr.Stalin! Ain't that sposed to be "smitten"?


I was raised Catholic as well, and was essentially a "true believer" through high school at any rate.
I never had any sort of faith-destroying crisis or moment of truth; I just sort of lost interest.
Did the typical thing and at least researched a few "alternative" religions, the most interesting of which to me was Taoism. (which really isn't a religion at all, at least in the early years)
I had some friends who were involved in neo-paganism, but I found that to be just as hidebound as any mainstream faith, and also utterly an invention.

It was science fiction turned me to atheism, I swear. I've been a fan of the genre since childhood, and I realized that many of my favorite authors were, in fact, atheists. (Isaac Asimov prominently) My readings in science (Gould, Sagan, others) reinforced this notion, and I eventually I began an intellectual examination of the underpinnings of religion, leading to my present state.

[Mid]

Originally Posted by Tricky

Oddly, this is one of the most common misspellings of skeptics here. I don't know if it comes from dealing with Loose Change folks or if it is just a natural keyboard reaction to type a double "o". Maybe it's because of the U-sound in the pronunciation (as opposed to rose, hose, dose, pose...) But I've seen it so frequently I hardly even blink anymore.

(Frankly I think that song sound better if it said, "That's me in the spotlight, hosing my religion.")

On my part it was due to stupidity and a habit of spelling phonetically

[Katana]

Originally Posted by Mid

D'oh! To any passing mod please correct the thread title, pretty please.

I'll take care of it, but, for future reference (for you and for anyone else), go ahead and report the OP of any thread that you start with an "oops" in the title. We don't mind at all. It will help direct our attention to it faster than waiting for one of us to see a post in a thread.

Just an FYI.

Carry on...

[Mid]

Originally Posted by Katana

I'll take care of it, but, for future reference (for you and for anyone else), go ahead and report the OP of any thread that you start with an "oops" in the title. We don't mind at all. It will help direct our attention to it faster than waiting for one of us to see a post in a thread.

Just an FYI.

Carry on...

Thank you I'll sacrifice my first born child in your honour

[Katana]

Originally Posted by Mid

Thank you I'll sacrifice my first born child in your honour

Most unnecessary, but thanks just the same.

[triadboy]

Originally Posted by Mid

Thank you I'll sacrifice my first born child in your honour

Please no! Katana is a moderator - a goat will do.

[alfaniner]

Just as a point of interest, I had previously made a thread with the same title (but spelled correctly the first time!) So I won't be repeating the story here, although I could add a few things in the three years since I posted it.

Losing My Religion

[Oubliette]

Although there is much more to this than what I'll post, here's a brief story of what I went through:

I was a Christian until 4 years ago. I was basically fooled by it. Being born in a Christian family and being raised as a Christian (with no other choice 'cause I was too little to understand what it was about) I eventually became devoted to it. It took a great deal of my life and my family became kinda "fanatic", so everything around was seen as "evil", anything from music, movies, books... just anything that wasn't "Christian related", so you can imagine how my childhood was. I didn't have a "normal" childhood (whatever that means) like other kids 'cause I was always stuck at church. It was home - school - church, nothing else.

I saw everything from "demon possessions" to "speaking in tongues" and "miracles". I knew a lot of "evangelists" from around the world that came only for money. Some of the churches I attended were in weird systems like the G12 and other stuff. I was the leader of the Hebrew dance group, we adopted the dances they used to do because the Bible states that we should "praise the Lord with dance and tambourines". I went to Christian camps every summer, every year. I was a teacher for toddlers too. I also, formed part of the band and drama group. It was just too much, but I didn't mind at the time 'cause I had nothing better to do and that was all I had.

I remember being one of the best in converting people to Christianity, of course, it was pretty easy. The system focuses on weak, poor, hopeless and desperate people who seek for some kind of comfort, so there I was, telling them how Jesus could change all that. It pretty much sold itself. My childhood and youth was pretty much that.

I became a leader in many more areas of church but it wasn't until I was 18 years old that I started to see the twisted things and thoughts they have on just about everything.

I had my first boyfriend when I was 18 and that's where it all began. They said that I couldn't be with him because he wasn't "Christian" and that if I was a leader I had to obey the rules, because the Bible said so. I refused, but I managed to stay as a leader 'cause no one could do my job at the time. Then I got into university and it all became more clear. Since all my life I had been attending a Christian school, I wasn't able to explore other areas of philosophy or religion, and I even thought that I really didn't need to, since I was in the "true religion" and all the other ones were false... yeah right...

Leaders at church gave us (the freshmen) a conference-type seminar where they "explained" the risks and the "twisted" things we would find at college. They told us that we had the "absolute truth" and that there wasn't anything relative in Christianity. They tried to "warn" us about all the things we could encounter there and how to manage them. I wasn't really sure about what they were talking about, 'cause I thought "college... no big deal" and I was just going to study, not to change my beliefs... but, SURPRISE!!!

Eyes wide open, ears listening to "heretics" and atheists all over the place, almost all my professors were either, agnostics, atheists or skeptics. From the very first moment I started listening to them I knew there was something wrong about what I believed in.

Shouldn't one feel comfortable and secure about one's beliefs if they are "indeed" the true ones? I guess... but I wasn't feeling a bit of confidence among all that. I started to question some things in church, to which they never really gave me an answer because "some things are not meant to be known by the man". They came up with the lamest excuses for not being able to answer my questions, so I just slowly drifted apart from my beliefs and from all that I had learn being a Christian.

One by one, all the things I once believed were simply proven wrong. The more I read, the less I believed, until it was all gone and I decided to step away from it for good. It was a big hit for my parents, 'cause they still are Christians, but they are already used to it by now.

This journey over the past few years has led me to think and to learn even more about how religions fool people. They are simply, to me, a method of mass control, something just to cover up the feeling that we are just going to rot in the dirt once we die. No afterlife, no heaven, no hell. Why can't the man accept that someday it will end and there will be nothing more? Why must people create an illusion, a whole scheme that will make us believe that there is something more after death? I guess I'll never know...

If you'd like to know more about this feel free to ask!

[Tricky]

Great stories all.

Oubliette, yours reminds me of a song by a somewhat obscure songwriter named Don Henry.

Sweet little Mary,
Good Catholic girl,
Pure as Grandma's Rosary
Of Pearl Harbor pearls.

She went off to college,
To un-learn the facts.
She held her Bible differently
When she got back.

[Oubliette]

Originally Posted by Tricky

Great stories all.

Oubliette, yours reminds me of a song by a somewhat obscure songwriter named Don Henry.

Sweet little Mary,
Good Catholic girl,
Pure as Grandma's Rosary
Of Pearl Harbor pearls.

She went off to college,
To un-learn the facts.
She held her Bible differently
When she got back.

Indeed.

[Mid]

Hi everyone thanks for replying it's been interesting, and alfaniner sorry for stealing your thread title (well sort of) but we all know we got the idea from REO Speedwagon originally .

Anyway I wonder if any of the repliers would be kind enough to answer this question? And that is what did you think about atheists/agnostics whilst you were believers? Did you think they actually didn't believe or as a lot of theists imply did you think they were angry at god? And why?

[Oubliette]

Originally Posted by Mid

Anyway I wonder if any of the repliers would be kind enough to answer this question? And that is what did you think about atheists/agnostics whilst you were believers? Did you think they actually didn't believe or as a lot of theists imply did you think they were angry at god? And why?
[/color]

Interesting question. In my experience, I was told and taught that atheists were just people who denied God and that they were people that we had to be careful with because they would try to convince the Christians that God didn't exist. It was pretty confusing 'cause they told me to be careful with them but, weren't they part of the people we had to try to convert? How would we reach them?

I guess they might find them like some sort of a threat because, IMO, they know that it is more likely for a Christian to end up believing that there is no God, than for an atheist to start believing there is a God.

[Dogdoctor]

I had a mixed upbringing. My parents put me in religious nursery school, religious summer school and had me going to church for 2 straight years while they only sporadically attended. I mentioned I had questions about religion and god and they set up a one on one all afternoon meeting with a pastor/priest from a local church (no he didn't try to molest me). He said he wondered about the same questions and told me not to worry about it. So I took his advice and didn't worry about it and quit going to church. Then I had friends who were in Catholic school who told me that if you swore at god in your thoughts this was an unforgivable sin and I had done that. So I figured if there was a god I was screwed. They then went on and told me if I did it out in the open I would be struck down by god (as in lightning). So I figured what did I have to lose? I gave it a try I went outside and swore up into the clouds and was immediately struck by lighting and died. So I guess there is a god after all.
Ghostwriter
dogdoctor

As far as my opinion of atheists in those days was it was difficult to comprehend someone who didn't believe in god and I wondered if they did but just hated him.

[alfaniner]

Originally Posted by Mid

Hi everyone thanks for replying it's been interesting, and alfaniner sorry for stealing your thread title (well sort of) but we all know we got the idea from REO Speedwagon originally .

NP, besides, we all know that R.E.M totally copied REO Speedwagon...

[juniper_ann]

Actually, I had just written an answer to this one, for myself, and it's 10 pages long. I'll try to summarize.

My problem was that I was raised by people who tried very, very hard to be good Catholics and good role models. There was not one Sunday in my childhood when either of my parents said “I don’t feel like going to Mass today.” And then there was Wednesday night adoration, and Holy Days of Obligation, and Lent. My religion was tightly woven into my childhood, my family, my sense of who I was. My grandmothers both went to daily mass once they retired. My aunt frequently invited the priest over for dinner.

I've known many smart Catholics. My confirmation teacher (later youth group leader) was a brilliant man—an engineer who spoke six languages and had a passion for the theology and philosophy of social justice.

Some of the nicest, most enthusiastic people I knew were in Opus Dei. The most charismatic man I ever met was the priest at my church in college.

I just had too many positive role models, and not enough facts.

My doubts started when I was 8 and wondered, "How can a good person punish somebody forever. Even if someone was a murderer, I wouldn't be mad at them forever, and I'm only partly good." But I kept talking myself back into the fold. I mean, the Catholic Church was the result of 2,000 years of God gradually guiding the cream to the top. Who was I to try to topple the greatest thinkers of 2,000 years?

But still, the philosophical proofs of God were not compelling, and the miracles didn't look much different from Hindu miracles, and this whole "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" thing didn't seem to be working out.

Some time in 2003-4, I stopped taking communion, not really sure what I believed. About a week before advent, 2005, I decided that I was well and truly agnostic, but I still went to church as a sign to whatever was out there that if it wanted me to believe, I was ready to listen. In February 2007, when my mother had a manic episode that looked an awful lot like a religious vision, I decided that the majority of the evidence was against the existence of God, and I stopped going to church.

It was a very difficult and dark journey, and I never felt that peace and freedom that many agnostics and atheists mention. I still feel a bit unwoven at the edges, but I have to believe what the evidence tells me, and I wouldn't trade that character trait for all the faith in the world.

[Mid]

Originally Posted by juniper_ann

...snip...
My doubts started when I was 8 and wondered, "How can a good person punish somebody forever. Even if someone was a murderer, I wouldn't be mad at them forever, and I'm only partly good." But I kept talking myself back into the fold. I mean, the Catholic Church was the result of 2,000 years of God gradually guiding the cream to the top. Who was I to try to topple the greatest thinkers of 2,000 years?
...snip...

Actually that was one of my first real gripes with Christainity as well, along with the question one of my friends asked which was if god created everything who created god? (I know it's not supposed to be a valid question at least according to theologians but I've never heard a convincing answer to it)

Quote:

Some time in 2003-4, I stopped taking communion, not really sure what I believed. About a week before advent, 2005, I decided that I was well and truly agnostic, but I still went to church as a sign to whatever was out there that if it wanted me to believe, I was ready to listen. In February 2007, when my mother had a manic episode that looked an awful lot like a religious vision, I decided that the majority of the evidence was against the existence of God, and I stopped going to church.

It was a very difficult and dark journey, and I never felt that peace and freedom that many agnostics and atheists mention. I still feel a bit unwoven at the edges, but I have to believe what the evidence tells me, and I wouldn't trade that character trait for all the faith in the world.

If it's not to rude to ask could you explain a bit more about how it was like a religious experience? Feel free not to if it's too personal etc. question. As for feeling unwoven a lot of the time through my teenage years I kept on wanting to believe in god but it gradually faded over time and I'm now quite happily aitheistic/agnostic (depending on my mood ), although of course everyone's differnet but I thought I'd mention it.

[juniper_ann]

Originally Posted by Mid

Actually that was one of my first real gripes with Christainity as well, along with the question one of my friends asked which was if god created everything who created god? (I know it's not supposed to be a valid question at least according to theologians but I've never heard a convincing answer to it)

From a young age I had problems wrapping my mind around two-way eternity (always has existed, always will exist), but I think I mostly assumed it was a problem with my mind, not with the concept.

Originally Posted by Mid

If it's not to rude to ask could you explain a bit more about how it was like a religious experience? .

Well, here’s how I wrote about it when I wrote it down for myself:

Quote:

In February 2007, my mom had outpatient surgery for a malformed sinus. She was given steroids to help her heal. After a couple of days, she proclaimed that she felt so much better that it was “a miracle.” I had never seen her so happy…or so busy, and each day she got happier and busier. Her busy-ness lost purpose—she was always doing something, but her attention would jump around so much that nothing ever got done. She started saying that her brain was “going so fast.” Her conversations took on an odd tone. If you disagreed with her about something, she would grab your hands, look into your eyes and state her position with great conviction. Then she would assume that you were convinced (or would be shortly).

Somewhere in my head, an alarm was sounding. But, as my sister later said, “What right did I have to tell Mom how happy she can be?” One Sunday, while in church, she began trembling. There was a call for the healing of the physically, emotionally, and spiritually sick, and she dragged me up to the altar. Standing at the altar against my will, holding her trembling hand, I had a feeling of standing at the edge of a cliff. After church, Mom told us that she had had a vision of a miracle. We would have to be patient with her because it was all coming at her so fast that she would make mistakes, but she had definitely experienced a miracle.

The miracle was going to lead people (including me) back to God. I was going to write a book about the miracle that would lead people back to God. The miracle would be that the book would lead people back to God. We repeated these statements back to her, incredulous, and she giddily agreed.

By the next Tuesday, her symptoms were so classically manic that her husband and three of her five children, none of whom are medically trained, independently started researching manic depression. Finally, my dad called my uncle (a pediatrician) and decided to put her in a hospital.

While my mother had been mildly depressed all her life, mania came as a bit of a surprise. It also shocked me how convincing she was when taken in small doses, and how completely she believed in her experiences

Every day after work, I drove to the hospital to meet my Dad during visiting hours. On the way there, I screamed and cried, “It’s just not fair! It’s just not FAIR! God, if you do exist, how could you do this to her?! Okay, whatever, the problem of evil, but how could you create a system that creates it’s own false prophets. She’s going to be crushed! What if she loses her faith? I don’t think she could stand that. Hey, this is Yahweh, the same guy who kills the children of the worshipers of Baal—obviously, you care about who worships you…but not that much!”

A week later, the hospital decided that she was on the road to recovery and released her into my dad’s care. Mom’s sister came and stayed with us for a week to make sure that Mom wouldn’t decide to empty the family savings or go on a road trip. Mom kept her mouth shut about the miracle, but we were pretty sure that was just so we would not put her back in the hospital and persecute her for her beliefs. A few days after Mom’s sister left, Dad and I confronted her. For a couple of hours, we talked about how she had looked from the outside while she staunchly defended her miracle. We mentioned all the people who had independently suggested mania—me, my Dad, my brother, my sister, my uncle, my cousin’s husband, the doctor at the emergency room, the doctor at the mental hospital.

The next morning, she admitted defeat. She was crushed.

She didn’t make a lot of sense, but she had a plausible explanation why she didn’t make sense: she had had a brush with God, and that would put anyone in a spin. If we hadn’t already known of an alternative explanation, then we might have accepted that one.

In her manic state, my mom was very suggestible, and anything that popped into her head was from God. As she came down from the manic high, she was still quite suggestible, and I’m sure her memories of the “miracle” continued to evolve. My mom is very smart, very sincere in her faith, and very, very determined. If she had been allowed to outlast the manic episode without anyone forcing her not to believe in her vision, I am sure that she would have come up with a more logical narrative of what the miracle was and how it should be implemented. And then, like a steamroller, she would have devoted her life to it.

Considering how hard she works, how loving she is, and how patient and serene she is outside of the family (she tries very hard inside the family, but she’s battled mild depression for most of her life and can’t always be as nice as she’d like), I could have seen sainthood in her future.

Originally Posted by Mid

As for feeling unwoven a lot of the time through my teenage years I kept on wanting to believe in god but it gradually faded over time and I'm now quite happily aitheistic/agnostic (depending on my mood ), although of course everyone's differnet but I thought I'd mention it.

I’m 24, but I think I’m still in the grieving process. First of all, shortly after I became agnostic I had a breakdown of sorts and was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I went through chemical hell during my last semester of college (Zoloft is not for me), graduated with no job and had to live with my parents for a year. That was stressful and sort of distracted me from the process of putting myself back together as an agnostic.

Also, while the switch from Catholic to “agnostic-but-hoping” was much bigger than the switch to “probably no God(s),” that last break was pretty recent (last February).

Then again, I know that a little of the pain won’t go away. I think most people have a little bittersweet nostalgia for the security of childhood. And it hurts to know that my parents feel that they failed me as parents in the only way that really mattered. They respect my right as an adult to choose what I believe, and they understand that I’m doing my best, but it still puts a damper on our relationship.

[Elind]

Originally Posted by juniper_ann

I’m 24, but I think I’m still in the grieving process. First of all, shortly after I became agnostic I had a breakdown of sorts and was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I went through chemical hell during my last semester of college (Zoloft is not for me), graduated with no job and had to live with my parents for a year. That was stressful and sort of distracted me from the process of putting myself back together as an agnostic.

Hang in there. You're young and others have been there before you. Ups and downs maybe, but no reason it can't be up from here.

[Oubliette]

Originally Posted by juniper_ann

Then again, I know that a little of the pain won’t go away. I think most people have a little bittersweet nostalgia for the security of childhood. And it hurts to know that my parents feel that they failed me as parents in the only way that really mattered. They respect my right as an adult to choose what I believe, and they understand that I’m doing my best, but it still puts a damper on our relationship.

I'm having some problems with my parents regarding this subject. While they are used to the fact that I don't go to church, nor do I care for going anymore, they don't know exactly what the reason is. Since I still live with them it's a little bit frustrating having conversations regarding religion or anything related. I just usually turn around and go to my room 'cause otherwise it would be just chaos, especially with my mother. Just today, she found a t-shirt that had a beer logo (I think it was my cousin's t-shirt) and she asked me if it was mine. I said it wasn't and she just saw the logo and freaked out and said "Dear Lord! What is this? These are the things that are keeping us away from you!..." and so on. Can you imagine if I tell her I'm an atheist? It's not like I'm gonna keep her from knowing forever, but it's just not the moment to bring that up.

When I left Christianity, I too felt somewhat nostalgic. I gave a good part of my youth to that cause. I can say I was really devoted to it, compromised. Now, I just feel I lost all that time but I really don't go crying about it because I understand that I cannot do anything about it now, it's in the past and while it was all woo, I chose to believe, to an extent. I learned a lot from that too and now I see it as an advantage, somehow, over atheists that didn't go through those experiences. I can use it now to confirm my position 'cause I had the "inside track", I lived it, I was there.

[juniper_ann]

Originally Posted by Oubliette

I'm having some problems with my parents regarding this subject. While they are used to the fact that I don't go to church, nor do I care for going anymore, they don't know exactly what the reason is. Since I still live with them it's a little bit frustrating having conversations regarding religion or anything related. I just usually turn around and go to my room 'cause otherwise it would be just chaos, especially with my mother. Just today, she found a t-shirt that had a beer logo (I think it was my cousin's t-shirt) and she asked me if it was mine. I said it wasn't and she just saw the logo and freaked out and said "Dear Lord! What is this? These are the things that are keeping us away from you!..." and so on. Can you imagine if I tell her I'm an atheist? It's not like I'm gonna keep her from knowing forever, but it's just not the moment to bring that up.

Oh, gosh, that's rough, Oubliette. I agree that you shouldn't tell until you're ready, but I know how stressful that can be. In my case, it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be—they could see that my arguments were good, and they knew (by the fact that I was crying) that I wasn’t just doing it out of laziness or debauchery.

Originally Posted by Oubliette

When I left Christianity, I too felt somewhat nostalgic. I gave a good part of my youth to that cause. I can say I was really devoted to it, compromised. Now, I just feel I lost all that time but I really don't go crying about it because I understand that I cannot do anything about it now, it's in the past and while it was all woo, I chose to believe, to an extent. I learned a lot from that too and now I see it as an advantage, somehow, over atheists that didn't go through those experiences. I can use it now to confirm my position 'cause I had the "inside track", I lived it, I was there.

My religion had many positive effects on me—it exposed me to many good and smart and thoughtful people. Also, considering the known calming effects of meditation and prayer, I think my daily decade of the rosary helped keep my anxiety in check.

I definitely think that being on the “inside track” can be helpful—we’re like interpreters. Sometimes, cradle atheists don’t have a clue about religious people, and vice versa. Also, it’s funny to note the parallels between atheists who want to "end superstition," and Christians who want to "show the whole world that Jesus loves them."

[Oubliette]

The problem is that I am ready... they aren't. I don't have any problem expressing how I feel and what I think but since they are so into it, it won't matter what I say.

I remember being like that too. There was no one who could convince me or make me even consider some facts. Even though I had my doubts, I just couldn't let anyone "shake my faith". It's funny now, how I used to get people into it... oh, the irony!

[Mid]

Originally Posted by juniper_ann

...snip...
Well, here’s how I wrote about it when I wrote it down for myself:



She didn’t make a lot of sense, but she had a plausible explanation why she didn’t make sense: she had had a brush with God, and that would put anyone in a spin. If we hadn’t already known of an alternative explanation, then we might have accepted that one.

In her manic state, my mom was very suggestible, and anything that popped into her head was from God. As she came down from the manic high, she was still quite suggestible, and I’m sure her memories of the “miracle” continued to evolve. My mom is very smart, very sincere in her faith, and very, very determined. If she had been allowed to outlast the manic episode without anyone forcing her not to believe in her vision, I am sure that she would have come up with a more logical narrative of what the miracle was and how it should be implemented. And then, like a steamroller, she would have devoted her life to it.

Considering how hard she works, how loving she is, and how patient and serene she is outside of the family (she tries very hard inside the family, but she’s battled mild depression for most of her life and can’t always be as nice as she’d like), I could have seen sainthood in her future.

...snip...

Thanks for sharing, I hope your mother's better now and sorry I didn't respond sooner I've been away for a few days.

[juniper_ann]

Originally Posted by Mid

Thanks for sharing, I hope your mother's better now and sorry I didn't respond sooner I've been away for a few days.

You're welcome. Yes, she seems to be doing much better. No problem.

[arthwollipot]

I've told part of my story here. My family was essentially non-religious. Nominally Anglican but practically apathist. My brother received Confirmation, but I didn't. Generally I was agnostic or apathist until the events described in that link. After that blew over, I dabbled a little in paganism before coming to the startling realisation that I was an atheist. That moment went something like this.

I was reading Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe and I was thinking along the lines of "Wow, this explains a lot about the universe. Heh. What place for God in all this? Hey, that's right. God has no place in the universe!"

Never looked back.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Tricky

(Frankly I think that song would sound better if it said, "That's me in the spotlight, hosing my religion.")

Given your past as a Catholic (do I recall correctly?) I'd have guessed

That's me at the stop light, boozing my religion

would be your cup of tea, or of port wine.

My guessing these days is starting to smell like a mackeral.

DR

[Roadtoad]

I think my deconversion was one of the more public ones here, Mid. I'll leave it to you to ask what you need.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Mid

Hi everyone thanks for replying it's been interesting, and alfaniner sorry for stealing your thread title (well sort of) but we all know we got the idea from REO Speedwagon originally .

Anyway I wonder if any of the repliers would be kind enough to answer this question? And that is what did you think about atheists/agnostics whilst you were believers? Did you think they actually didn't believe or as a lot of theists imply did you think they were angry at god? And why?

I'll give you a reverse answer. I grew up agnostic, and didn't come to the Faith until much later. My take on agnostics and atheists used to be "good for you, whatever rows your boat" just as an agnostic I approached the various religious people with "good for you, whatever rows your boat."

A year on this forum has changed that. It is now more like

Agnostics, good for you, whatever rows your boat.

Atheists -- uh, wait, what sort of atheist are you? Are you a reasonable atheist, or an a-hole atheist? (Ref: Frank Zappa, is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?) I had no idea how high the a-hole count was, based on the atheists I had known up to my arriving at this discussion group.

Based on new evidence, it's right up there with the Fundy a-hole count. It hurts to learn some things.

"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."-- The Atheist

It's also no safeguard against a-holiness, anymore than being religious is.

DR

[Tressa]

I used "loosing" because the meaning of the word better expressed what I felt/meant.

Loosing: free or released from fastening or attachment, free from anything that binds or restrains.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loosing

From my myspace blog:

May 13, 2007 - Sunday

Loosing My Religion 4 (a short history) Updated 5/15/7
Category: Religion and Philosophy

Updated May 15, 2007

------------------------------------

I was raised a Christian. Catholic until I was twelve (first communion and first confession, not confirmed) then trying out a lot of denominations (Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Protestant, etc) until sticking with Pentecostal for a while. Anyone see the documentary "Jesus Camp"? Well, I went to Bible Camp.

Before the age of nine, I was also taught fortune telling with regular playing cards and how to use a Ouija board. I had some perfume from avon in a bottle shaped like a pig that I wore just when I was working on these things. My parents went to seances and were considering some kind of past life regression for my brother as he had reoccurring dreams of being killed in a plane crash as an adult. I have a picture of a southern belle from a family friend that says "to my little Witch" on the back (it was this friend who was teaching me card reading).

I can't remember how doing all this was reconciled with being Christian. I can't remember how to read playing cards or the name of the perfume in the pig bottle either.

I do remember that at the age of nine my family and I became born again Christians and we tore up and threw out or burned everything that had anything to do with reading cards, Ouija boards, etc (the pig perfume went down the sink and the bottle was broken).

It's interesting how Christians and Pagans both like fire.

After that, we were very serious Christians. I refer to that time period as my Fundy Youth (as in Hitler Youth only with a Christian overtone instead of a Nazi one). It lasted for quite some time, almost a decade I think.

As I got older and started to read the bible myself and check scriptures that were quoted in church sermons I became less fundamentalist. I found too many ministers taking things out of context to make them fit what message they wanted to send out. I found the metaphor of "shepard and flock" to be insulting. I found too many biblical contradictions.

In my early twenties, I would say I was Christian but it was more non-practicing. I just didn't really have anything else to call myself. I began thinking that there probably was something out there, or maybe several somethings, but we as humans could not know them with our finite minds. We developed religions as a way to express this belief and we each chose the one that best expressed what we believed. All roads lead home.

All this time, even at my most Christian, I missed those early years of magic. Immediately after becoming born again I began to more seriously read the Greek myths. I had always enjoyed them but then they became more important. They filled in the missing magic.

When I was about twenty six I discovered the modern form of Witchcraft called Wicca. I was immediately entranced. I found the magic of my childhood in an actual religion. After two years of research, consisting of mostly a lot of reading and the occasional seminar, I converted.

I almost didn't as there was a lot of spotlight put on the aspect of motherhood. The Goddess had three aspects; Maiden, Mother, Crone. Physical motherhood was often how this aspect was portrayed. It is only in researching that motherhood didn't mean physically giving birth but mother as a teacher, just as Crone didn't always mean an older woman but a woman of wisdom. Maiden also didn't mean someone who hadn't had sex (and they said you couldn't get your virginity back, ha ha).

Also, there was the issue of any kind of psychic ability. I always thought of psychic ability, and magic as a whole, as science we didn't have the math for yet. (Go back a couple thousand years and an alka seltzer will be a magic pill, go forward a couple thousand years and an alka seltzer pill will be medical history.) I didn't think it was anything supernatural or mysterious; just human talents we hadn't explored fully yet, and like all human talents, some will be better at it than others no matter how much effort they put into it.

The best example of this I can give is tarot reading. I always felt that in a reading there are three things doing the reading. The cards, as a guide, the reader and the questioner. I never felt it was all in the cards or all in the reader. I certainly never felt it was anything supernatural or anything absolute. I also felt that a reader who went professional should have at least have taken some classes, such as intro to psych, psych 101, intro to abnormal psych, abnormal psych 101, intro to counseling and counseling 101 before hanging out their shingle. Part of being a good reader is knowing when you're going to have to say, "you need a different kind of help than I offer."

Another issue I had with the tarot and other "services" of that type was the price. Fifty, seventy five, what? a hundred and fifty dollars for a reading?! I'm not having a tumor removed here! In the twelve years I was Wiccan I paid for four tarot readings and the most expensive was thirty dollars. I thought charging those extreme amounts of money was obscene. How about I pay what I make an hour? They'd be wishing they'd taken the thirty!

At first I studied on my own. Eventually I found a teacher but only stayed with them for about a year as they were more interested in teaching their take on the Craft as opposed to teaching the Craft and letting their students find their own conclusions. I attended one very large gathering once a year which put me in contact with Pagans from around the world and all different Traditions (Denominations) and allowed me to learn about the different aspects of my chosen religion. I enjoyed this gathering immensely but can't always say I enjoyed what I learned or saw there.

I did find a friend who was also a teacher and worked with them for almost two years. This was very satisfying and very much a "hands on" study as opposed to a "listen while I talk" class. The class ended about six years ago and I am happy to say that I am still friends with this person.

As more and more time passed, I noticed I was becoming more and more discontented with my chosen religion. One of the things about the Craft was that there were very few absolutes. The Wiccan Rede ("do as thou will and harm ye none") was perhaps the only true "dogma." I found I was on the fence or just not interested in many of the subjects that most Witches considered part of the religion.

Reincarnation for example. This made some sense to me. Even flowers that decay and become part of the earth again in a way come back as part of whatever grows from their compost. It made some sense that a part of me could come back in a new form, a new body. I just wasn't into past life regression or any serious study of reincarnation. I felt that if one lead one's life awake and aware that was enough; one would automatically deal with any karma or issues left over from a past life (and also make new issues for the next life because, let's face it, if we're breathing, we're packing emotional baggage, the trick is to be unpacking baggage at the same time; and sometimes the baggage is Armani and sometimes it's Second Hand Store, but it's always there, always to be packed and unpacked: always to be worked on). I thought the study of reincarnation, which to me was such a simple, straightforward idea, was just an expense, fanciful waste of money. A few people used it as a crutch. They'd meet someone they just felt like they had known all their lives and run off to a past life regressionist to find out if they had known this person before. Connecting with another human being shouldn't involve cash exchange with an uninvolved third party (and although I believe in legalized prostitution, no, I don't believe in pimps either).

I only had a vague interest in astrology, no interest in the astral plane, chakras, etc. I never took any classes and only read occasional articles on the subjects. Trance work had no interest to me as it just seemed like meditation with some lucid dreaming added (I trance every day on my way to work, sometimes I even trance while working, and although I've had some "a-ha" moments in those times, I've never considered it anything more than a peaceful, non-thought state brought about by some rhythmic action like driving, work flow, dancing, etc).

Women's Mysteries...I still have no idea exactly what they are. I bleed for five days yet do not die? Most of the issues within Women's Mysteries dealt with what a woman's physical body could or couldn't do with primary focus being on reproduction. This to me is of minimal importance because it's a factor of birth not choice. How one deals with it is obviously important, ie, being treated or treating someone as "less than" due to an issue of birth, etc. It was too heavy on "wymoon being subjugated by the patriarchal establishment" and all male doctors being quacks and all midwives being geniuses looked down upon due to their gender. That's too much like saying all men are pigs and all women are sheep.

And don't even get me started on that whole early "matriarchal society" (or as I like to call it, Matriarchal Rome) that was destroyed by patriarchy "herstory."

There was also some trends within the religion that I was uncomfortable with. Such as the Goddess being talked about or put above the God. Many would say that it was because the Goddess was so ignored in recent history. I would say only in some other religions not in Wicca so why should Wiccans make changes; we aren't any of those other religions. It just seemed that people were bringing emotional baggage with them when they converted and it was negatively impacting the religion as a whole.

Then there was the new Witch War of the past few years: Witches and Wiccans aren't the same thing. The Craft and Wicca aren't the same religion. As far as I could tell, the argument was, simply put, Craft is magic, Wicca is religion. There were specifics given but I felt they were just petty and stupid so I'm not going to repeat them here.

By this time I was going to monthly rituals with a very loose group of friends. No classes or anything, just celebrating the esbats (full moons) and sabbats (holidays). I decided to spend a year going back to the beginning. Rereading a lot, hopefully rediscovering a lot. I also began hosting dark moon rituals once a month at my house.

At first it was a lot of fun. I was enjoying writing the rituals and being with my friends. But I didn't find any answers and I didn't find anything to believe.

As I said, I felt that we as a species couldn't really know Deity, if there was one, or more. We could only create ways to try and understand and call these ways religion. Yet it seems we cannot leave it simply as that. It seems that people must always have a One Way, My Way, This Way, within a religion.

There was too much in the Craft/Wicca that I either had no opinion on, no interest in, or just didn't believe. There were too many Witch War issues that I didn't want to get caught up in. I thought about creating my own Tradition of the Craft but I found I wasn't willing to give it the time or the research I felt an undertaking like that required. I just didn't believe enough.

I think it was this feeling that stopped me from doing the proper research on subjects that were important in the Craft. Deep down, I just didn't believe. I liked a lot of the simple, philosophical tenants of the Craft. Ultimately, I didn't believe in the Craft any more than I believed in Christianity, and I wanted to believe in the Craft.

I realized there was just too many compromises for me in the Craft, to the point that it would be hypocritical for me to continue to call myself a Witch/Wiccan.

I hesitate to bring up this next thing because I know that some people will read it and it will somehow negate everything else I've said and it will be all they will focus on or remember, but if I had a great conversation with someone that made me laugh and made me think I would be writing about it, so...

About this time, three quarters of the way "out the door" from the Craft (and any religious beliefs) I'm shown the Showtime series Penn & Teller's ********. And I thought I questioned! I can't say I agree with all their stances, I can't even say I agree with some of the ways they've expressed their stances, but I can say that they have most certainly made me think, made me laugh, and inspired me to question and explore. Thinking and laughing, is there a more potent magic? So, although they didn't help me "out the door" they pretty much made sure the doorknob hit me in the ass on the way out!

I think the Craft was a way for me to express the loss I had when I was nine. A way to regain the magic I had been forced to leave. Perhaps that was part of why I couldn't truly believe. It was just something I needed to get through to get where I am now.


I can't say I deny the possibility of there being a Deity or Deities. I'm not sure if this is a "last hold out," some part of me that just can't let go of "believing" (which to be honest just smacks of "crutch" to me). Why do I "need" to believe? I don't know, I'm still working on that. But I am no longer a member of a religion.

So here I am now, for the first time in my life, faithless. It feels scary somehow, and yet, it also feels very, very right.

[Mid]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

I'll give you a reverse answer. I grew up agnostic, and didn't come to the Faith until much later. My take on agnostics and atheists used to be "good for you, whatever rows your boat" just as an agnostic I approached the various religious people with "good for you, whatever rows your boat."

A year on this forum has changed that. It is now more like

Agnostics, good for you, whatever rows your boat.

Atheists -- uh, wait, what sort of atheist are you? Are you a reasonable atheist, or an a-hole atheist? (Ref: Frank Zappa, is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?) I had no idea how high the a-hole count was, based on the atheists I had known up to my arriving at this discussion group.

Based on new evidence, it's right up there with the Fundy a-hole count. It hurts to learn some things.

"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."-- The Atheist

It's also no safeguard against a-holiness, anymore than being religious is.

DR

Yeah when I came here I was a bit surprised about the number of angry atheists out there too. I think it's probably a reflection of the general culture war as there seems to be abit of an upswell in the more direct forms of atheism in the UK in the past few years, which I think is in response to the perceived increase in power of relgion here.

[Mid]

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

I think my deconversion was one of the more public ones here, Mid. I'll leave it to you to ask what you need.

Hi Roadtoad yeah I remember your threads and found them interesting and informative but if I think of a question I will ask

Also thanks to everyone else who's shared their experiences.

[Mid]

Originally Posted by Tressa

...snip...

Hi Tressa that's an interesting story have you met any of the Wiccans/Ex-Wiccans on the board? I believe there's a couple on the board.

[Tressa]

Originally Posted by Mid

Hi Tressa that's an interesting story have you met any of the Wiccans/Ex-Wiccans on the board? I believe there's a couple on the board.

Not as of yet but I'm still relatively new here. I try to get here once a day (in the evenings, after work, mostly) so hopefully I will be bumping posts with them soon!

[Gregoire]

Originally Posted by Tressa

I used "loosing" because the meaning of the word better expressed what I felt/meant.

Loosing: free or released from fastening or attachment, free from anything that binds or restrains.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loosing

From my myspace blog:

May 13, 2007 - Sunday

Loosing My Religion 4 (a short history) Updated 5/15/7
Category: Religion and Philosophy

Updated May 15, 2007

------------------------------------

....I hesitate to bring up this next thing because I know that some people will read it and it will somehow negate everything else I've said and it will be all they will focus on or remember, but if I had a great conversation with someone that made me laugh and made me think I would be writing about it, so...

About this time, three quarters of the way "out the door" from the Craft (and any religious beliefs) I'm shown the Showtime series Penn & Teller's ********. And I thought I questioned! I can't say I agree with all their stances, I can't even say I agree with some of the ways they've expressed their stances, but I can say that they have most certainly made me think, made me laugh, and inspired me to question and explore. Thinking and laughing, is there a more potent magic? So, although they didn't help me "out the door" they pretty much made sure the doorknob hit me in the ass on the way out!

I think the Craft was a way for me to express the loss I had when I was nine. A way to regain the magic I had been forced to leave. Perhaps that was part of why I couldn't truly believe. It was just something I needed to get through to get where I am now.


I can't say I deny the possibility of there being a Deity or Deities. I'm not sure if this is a "last hold out," some part of me that just can't let go of "believing" (which to be honest just smacks of "crutch" to me). Why do I "need" to believe? I don't know, I'm still working on that. But I am no longer a member of a religion.

So here I am now, for the first time in my life, faithless. It feels scary somehow, and yet, it also feels very, very right.

Very interesting story, Tressa. I think some on the board sometimes get too smug in their skepticism to understand that any of us here could have become devoutly religious depending on which family, place and time we were born.

"There but for the grace of God blind chance go I."

And I certainly understand the sentiment about not being able to deny at least the possibility of a Deity.

[Loriciferan Universe]

A man in who flies around the world in a sled isn’t real... well than neither is a guy who survived his own death. I was 12. I cried, but I cried more when I found out Santa wasn’t real. Different hurt though.

Originally Posted by Mid

Hi everyone thanks for replying it's been interesting, and alfaniner sorry for stealing your thread title (well sort of) but we all know we got the idea from REO Speedwagon originally .

Anyway I wonder if any of the repliers would be kind enough to answer this question? And that is what did you think about atheists/agnostics whilst you were believers? Did you think they actually didn't believe or as a lot of theists imply did you think they were angry at god? And why?

I thought everyone that wasn’t Catholic was going to hell. I actually told a Jewish friend of mine she was going to hell. I apologized when I was older.