Hammegk and slavery

[Mossy]

In this thread, Hammegk said (to WMT1):

Quote:

I doubt if you want to know what I "think" about the benefits of slavery.

So rather than go off into a tangent on that thread, I thought I'd ask here.

Can you explain your thoughts on the benefits (or lack thereof) of slavery?

-Ed

[hammegk]

I doubt you want to know either.

Have you been to Africa? Lately? S. Africa? Lately?

Haiti? Killed all the massas in ?1857 I vaguely recall.

Good examples of throwing off the chains of oppression.

Would most people prefer the amenities of downtown Wash.DC or of downtown Lagos, if one were down & out? Would you rather be black in Rio or Sao Paulo, or in Dar es Salaam? Or Kano?

Actually, imperialism/colonialism "in-country" would be best I suppose.

[Q-Source]

Quote:

Originally posted by hammegk
I doubt you want to know either.

Have you been to Africa? Lately? S. Africa? Lately?

Haiti? Killed all the massas in ?1857 I vaguely recall.

Good examples of throwing off the chains of oppression.

Would most people prefer the amenities of downtown Wash.DC or of downtown Lagos, if one were down & out? Would you rather be black in Rio or Sao Paulo, or in Dar es Salaam? Or Kano?

Actually, imperialism/colonialism "in-country" would be best I suppose.

Hammegk

I am a bit slow, sorry.

Was that a yes or no for slavery?

[hammegk]

Quote:

Originally posted by Q-Source


Hammegk

I am a bit slow, sorry.

I'm sorry for you too.

[hgc]

Q-Source:

Since hamm has just insulted you for not understanding his non-reply, I'll take a crack at explaining his position.

He thinks that all those descendents of slaves in the western hemisphere ought to be thankful for and should be the first to admit that slavery has turned out to be a damn good thing for them. And if even they'll admit it, then what a swell idea it must have been.

Is that right, hamm?

[hammegk]

I've have 8 questions pending answers for your one. Care to take a shot?

Why was my my answer a non-reply? YOU seem to have caught a bit of it.

And, I may be wrong. Perhaps slaveowners & their descendents take too bad a rap (cost) to justify the benefits supplied to the slaves & their descendents.

Yeah, very possibly imperialism/colonialism is the best current answer.

[Q-Source]

Quote:

Originally posted by hgc
Q-Source:

Since hamm has just insulted you for not understanding his non-reply, I'll take a crack at explaining his position.

He thinks that all those descendents of slaves in the western hemisphere ought to be thankful for and should be the first to admit that slavery has turned out to be a damn good thing for them. And if even they'll admit it, then what a swell idea it must have been.

Is that right, hamm?

Thank you hgc, you are very kind. I was asking too much.

Following that reasoning, then Jews must be thankful for the Holocaust, thanks to that Germany gave them money and now they have Israel!

Wow.

Q-S

[hammegk]

I notice you find answering questions also too difficult.

And yeah, Slavery=Holocaust. YAAFI.

[Mossy]

[edited to add answers to your questions]

Quote:

Originally posted by hammegk
I doubt you want to know either.

Have you been to Africa? Lately? S. Africa? Lately?

Yes

Quote:

Haiti? Killed all the massas in ?1857 I vaguely recall.

Honestly don't know.

Quote:

Good examples of throwing off the chains of oppression.

Would most people prefer the amenities of downtown Wash.DC or of downtown Lagos, if one were down & out? Would you rather be black in Rio or Sao Paulo, or in Dar es Salaam? Or Kano?

Again, don't know. In all honesty, I think they both have their advantages depending on your perspective - but for my tastes, of course I would D.C.

Quote:

Actually, imperialism/colonialism "in-country" would be best I suppose.

So hgc's characterization of your position is accurate?

Are you, in effect, saying that the black people in the US are much better off than the black people of Africa, and since they are in America primarily because of slavery, then that is the benefit?

And the follow-up question, if you answer "yes" to the above: would you therefor say that slavery was a good thing? (which isn't to say that slavery would be good now, just that "the ends justify the means" so if it ended up good - we shouldn't be too critical of it)

(not trying to be dense - just trying to understand your position)

-Ed

[Q-Source]

Quote:

Originally posted by hammegk
I notice you find answering questions also too difficult.

And yeah, Slavery=Holocaust. YAAFI.

Are you talking to me??

I don't discuss with someone who does not respect me.

Good bye

Q-S

[hammegk]

Quote:

Originally posted by Q-Source


Are you talking to me??

You ARE quick; did someone else mention "Holocaust"?

Quote:

I don't discuss with someone who does not respect me.

Good bye

Q-S

Sorry, kiddo. I don't mind rhetorical questions, but acting dumb at the same time doesn't get much "respect" from me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mossy

(not trying to be dense - just trying to understand your position)

No, I don't think I owe anyone reparations, or even an apology. If you can't make a life for yourself in the US today you are worthless. And, if you are also African-American, I'll take up a collection to send your sorry ass back "home".

Colin Powell & Condy Rice must thank God every morning for their ancestral good fortune.

[Tmy]

Whiteys history of imperialism and colonialism is the root cause of most of the problems in Africa, MidEast, and in most parts of the world. They moved in, carved up new contries with concearn for local ethinicites and rivalries, throw in some puppet goverments, took what they wanted, then left once the going got tough.

Some Brit Politician has been bringing this up lately.

[BPSCG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Q-Source

Following that reasoning, then Jews must be thankful for the Holocaust, thanks to that Germany gave them money and now they have Israel!

Hey, I'm thankful for Hitler, 'cuz if he hadn't wanted to turn my paternal grandparents into soap, they wouldn't have fled France in 1940. And if he hadn't declared war on the US the following year, my dad wouldn't have gone back to France wearing a uniform and wouldn't have met my future mom.

So let's hear it for Hitler!!!

Should I say that next Thursday when we're all going around the Thanksgiving dinner table and saying what we're thankful for this year?

[Doubt]

hammegk,

I request a little clarification on the issue.

1.) Do you assume that the average Black American has a better life than the average African?
2.) Assuming the above is true, does the current situation justify slavery?

If number two is true that sounds a lot like stating that the ends justifies the means, even when the current "ends" was never a goal of slavery and was not foreseen by the slave owners.

Correct me if I am wrong about your perspective.

[Michael Redman]

I'm thankful for Osama bin Laden, because the terrorist attacks helped put (keep) our economy in the tank, prompting lowered interest rates, which caused a whole slew of home mortgage refinancing, and I just got a job in the home mortgage industry due to the increased business!

[headscratcher4]

Serious question:

Quote:

Colin Powell & Condy Rice must thank God every morning for their ancestral good fortune.

If this is true, and I assume you believe it, should not a proud, happy and indipendent Isreali thank-God every morning, because the death of 6 million jews contributed greatly to the founding of Isreal?

Why, logically, does that not follow?

[hammegk]

Quote:

Originally posted by headscratcher4
Serious question:

If this is true, and I assume you believe it, should not a proud, happy and indipendent Isreali thank-God every morning, because the death of 6 million jews contributed greatly to the founding of Isreal?

Why, logically, does that not follow?

Well, darned if I know if Israelis should be as happy about 6 million educated civilized people slaughtered for no purpose as Africans could be about their 2 million aboriginals dead (+-) out of perhaps 12 million(+-) African slaves, with 10 million (+-)reaching new & better lives for their descendents.

What does logic tell you about costs/benefit to human-kind?

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy

Whiteys history of imperialism and colonialism is the root cause of most of the problems in Africa, MidEast, and in most parts of the world. They moved in, carved up new contries with concearn for local ethinicites and rivalries, throw in some puppet goverments, took what they wanted, then left once the going got tough.

Yeah, they stopped the process to soon; that was the only mistake. Had they hung around, installing infrastructure & civilization, the crummy job of sorting out rational country boundries might even have occurred.

[hgc]

Let's face it: everything about the world today, good and bad, is the result of everything that led up to it -- history. There's no way to determine what things would be like, better or worse, if something in history had gone differently. That's the nature of contingency.

When we ask ourselves if some historical phenomenon was a good or bad thing, what's the purpose of the question? I think it has to do with whether it would be good or bad in our present circumstances -- whether under our current moral standards such a thing is desirable. You may also wonder if you lived "back then" if you might have supported such things or not. Or would have even had the context with which to judge (prevailing moral standards).

Robert Novak expressed a similar sentiment as hamm a few years ago on one of those political shows he's on. He apologized the next week. Why does hamm express himself so obliquely instead of coming out and saying what he means? Why does he keep insulting anyone who asks him to clarify. I think he's ashamed of his position.

[hammegk]

Quote:

Originally posted by hgc
I think he's ashamed of his position.

You think wrong. The benefits of ancestral salvery far exceed any costs the current descendents suffer, imnsho.

I don't advocate additional slavery, but think a good 25 yr program of imperialism/colonialism is the best hope for most of the underdeveloped world.

[hgc]

Quote:

The benefits of ancestral salvery far exceed any costs the current descendents suffer, imnsho.

Such a thing is unknowable. We cannot imagine, in our wildest dreams, what the lives of the descendents of 17th/18th/19th century Africans would be like today without the history of slavery and colonialism.

[Michael Redman]

Quote:

Originally posted by hammegk


Well, darned if I know if Israelis should be as happy about 6 million educated civilized people slaughtered for no purpose as Africans could be about their 2 million aboriginals dead (+-) out of perhaps 12 million(+-) African slaves, with 10 million (+-)reaching new & better lives for their descendents.

Where do you get these numbers? Can you substantiate that as many as 5 out of 6 taken into slavery lived long enough, and were able to reproduce?

Quote:

What does logic tell you about costs/benefit to human-kind?

Nothing. There's no objective way to compare the suffering and death of one person to the benefit of another.

You are simply stating that today's decendants of slaves are better off than their cousins who've been in Africa the whole time, right? And not that slavery was a net benefit to the whole of effected Africans?

[specious_reasons]

Normally, I have hammegk on ignore, but I decided on a lark to read this thread.

Here's a wacky thought-experiment: What would have happened to the Africans in this country if they were brought over as workers, not as slaves?

Even if the average condition of African Americans wasn't improved over our version of history, wouldn't it still be that much better that their ancestors didn't suffer in slavery?

[Doubt]

I notice that hammegk has not answered my request for clarification.

I will put it in simplest terms:

Does the ends (current conditions of black americans,) justify the means (slavery.) Take into account that the current conditions for blacks in the US was not intended by those who owned slaves.

[Bluegill]

This thread brings to mind a question, on a much smaller scale, from my personal life. A few years ago I got a divorce. Though it was not a very rough divorce as divorces go, it was nonetheless the most painful and upsetting period of my life.

Very soon after the divorce, I fell in love with someone else. She and I are now married, and I have never been so happy in any relationship, and never thought that this kind of personal joy and deep-down love was possible outside of sappy fiction.

That makes it really hard for me to call my divorce a bad thing, despite it being the worst thing that has ever happened to me. It’s also the best thing that ever happened to me. Now I know that, if I could, I would never choose to go back in time and prevent that awful loss.

I think that it would be possible for a person to consider slavery “evil” in pretty much any sense of the word I can think of. But it IS possible for good to come of bad. Asking whether hundreds of years of slavery justifies the better lot of African Americans today seems to me to be worthless question. More appropriate questions would be, “How can we correct the Great Evils in today’s world, and how can we do it so that the most people get the greatest possible benefit?”

I would think that, for instance, a Jew in Israel would not give thanks for the Nazis that sent his poverty-stricken family out of Europe towards a prosperous life. Instead, he’d be thankful that he, and those that came before him, we able to take such a bad situation and not only survive, but end up better off than before.

[hgc]

Bluegill: very well put.

What can we do?
- Understand history
- Do the right thing by your neighbor
- Build for a better tomorrow

[Tmy]

Quote:

Originally posted by hgc
Bluegill: very well put.

What can we do?
- Understand history
- Do the right thing by your neighbor
- Build for a better tomorrow

Screw that! Once I finish my time machine I'm going back and fix history.

First thing, go back and kick Eli Whitney's ass! Him and his lousy cotton gin.

So what would you **** with if you could time travel?

[hgc]

Quote:

So what would you **** with if you could time travel?

If I had a way-back machine, find a way to stop Michael Jackson from having children.

[Bluegill]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy


Screw that! Once I finish my time machine I'm going back and fix history.

First thing, go back and kick Eli Whitney's ass! Him and his lousy cotton gin.

So what would you **** with if you could time travel?

This seems like a major thread-hijacking. My first one! How exciting! I'm wearing a ski mask and waving a pistol!

I'd go back in time and convince who ever named the Teapot Dome that it should be called The Giant Clitoris. Then, in high school history, I might have actually been able to pay attention when learning about The Giant Clitoris Scandal. Yeah, I DEFINITELY would have paid more attention.

[hgc]

OK hi-jacker, you wanna play rough?

I'd go back to when those nice pilgrims were sharing the first Thanksgiving feast with the friendly natives, and change the main course form turkey to chocolate pudding.

[The Fool]

I'm really not sure why Hammy is doing this, Most Racists avoid displaying their opinions.

[hgc]

Quote:

I'm really not sure why Hammy is doing this, Most Racists avoid displaying their opinions.

Let me speak for hamm again.

He doesn't think it's racist. He only thinks we think it's racist. So he's willing to say it in a dance-around-it kind of way, but not actually come out with the words, "slavery was good and righteous." Instead it's more like, "look at the benefits," etc.

hamm, as always slap me down if I misrepresent.

hamm, I think you are being too dodgy in this discussion. If you feel white men are superior to black men, then come out and say it. I think we would all appreciate straightforwardness more than this guessing game you are encouraging.

If you are saying that you are against reparations to American blacks, I'm with you. But I may have different reasons than you do.

Seems like everyone has pretty much formed the opinion that you are a rascist, so what difference would it make to speak plainly? And if we are wrong, then straighten us out.

Then we can discuss the reasoning behind each of our thoughts.

The only reason I can see for dodginess is that one isn't secure in one's position.

Racial discussions can be very emotion-laden, but they don't have to be. Nor do they have to be statistics wars. I'm sure we can find a middle ground.

I can't speak for black people, but it would be reasonable, I think, to assume it is possible for a black man to be grateful to be living in America today and not in South Africa, while not grateful that his ancestors were enslaved.

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool
I'm really not sure why Hammy is doing this, Most Racists avoid displaying their opinions.

On the contrary. If a person believes themselves to be in the right, they can be quite vocal about it.

[hgc]

Quote:

Seems like everyone has pretty much formed the opinion that you are a rascist, so what difference would it make to speak plainly?

Actually, I have not formed the opinion that hamm is "racist," notwithstanding my previous posts. The reason I say that it's very hard to define, except for the extreme cases. I would say that it's possible and unproven. More importantly, hamm's apparent attitudes about how Africans would be better off if recolonized by us, in that it's probably prevalent, is very harmful in how that attitude transfers over the way black Americans are treated here in this country, today.

For that matter, it's not actually worth debating whether the slavery of the past was harmful or not. That's over and done with. We know, at least most of us do, that to institute slavery today would be real bad. Personally I think that because of the way blacks came to America and were treated here the first few hundred years (slavery) has resonated in ways that are continue to be harmful to them. Is it because the collective white psyche can't get it out of its head that black people are subhuman and were enslaved for a good reason? That's where hamm's thinking leads. Is that overtly racist? I also look for malicious intent too before I toss around a harsh label.

[subgenius]

This is the most sickening thread I've read, even surpassing JK's defense of the DC snipers, the U of A mass murderer and abortion clinic bombers.
Why doesn't this butthead sell himself into slavery, so his descendents can have a beautiful life? Ooooh someone would have to procreate with him. And if someone has, someone help those kids.

[hammegk]

Quote:

Originally posted by subgenius
This is the most sickening thread I've read, even surpassing JK's defense of the DC snipers, the U of A mass murderer and abortion clinic bombers.
Why doesn't this butthead sell himself into slavery, so his descendents can have a beautiful life? Ooooh someone would have to procreate with him. And if someone has, someone help those kids.

Wow! You can spell & string words together to form sentences. One of your better posting efforts; did your Mommy help you?

My offspring are doing fine, thanks for your concern though.

[hammegk]

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Redman
Where do you get these numbers? Can you substantiate that as many as 5 out of 6 taken into slavery lived long enough, and were able to reproduce?

A quick googol, the 2 mm -- 12 mm are high end estimates. No idea on reproductive stats, but slaves were valuable merchandise, and a well-bred slave was an asset worth having. A dead slave was fertilizer.

Quote:

Nothing. There's no objective way to compare the suffering and death of one person to the benefit of another.

To that I say horse****, as non-pc at it might be. For example, one of my family is worth all of yours from my viewpoint. Nice of you to feel less certain.

Quote:

You are simply stating that today's decendants of slaves are better off than their cousins who've been in Africa the whole time, right? And not that slavery was a net benefit to the whole of effected Africans?

You got it.

Quote:

Originally posted by subgenius
This is the most sickening thread I've read, even surpassing JK's defense of the DC snipers, the U of A mass murderer and abortion clinic bombers.
Why doesn't this butthead sell himself into slavery, so his descendents can have a beautiful life? Ooooh someone would have to procreate with him. And if someone has, someone help those kids.

Why don't we try to actually discuss this issue? I think it is as relevant to our society as psychics are.

hammegk, are you familiar with White Nationalists? Are you in agreement with their general premises?

[Skeptic]

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Redman
I'm thankful for Osama bin Laden, because the terrorist attacks helped put (keep) our economy in the tank, prompting lowered interest rates, which caused a whole slew of home mortgage refinancing, and I just got a job in the home mortgage industry due to the increased business!

Hell, why stop there? If it wasn't for the holocaust, my grandparents would never have met and I wouldn't have been born.

I guess I should be thankful it happened.