Oh no.. Whoopie did not just say that!

[Molinaro]

From here.

Quote:

"You know from his background this is not an unusual thing for where he comes from," said Goldberg.

"How about dog torture and dog murdering," Behar asked.

"Unfortunately it's part of the thing," Goldberg replied.

"You're a dog lover. For a lot of people dogs are sport," she added.

How do you think it would go over if I tried to excuse racist behaviour by saying that it's part of the culture down there in the south? Do you think Whoopie would buy that?

[Katana]

I love the dog-fighting apologists.

Would she be saying the same if he were white?

Then again, who gives a flying fig? She's a washed-up idiot actress on a ridiculous daytime cluck-show.

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I AGREE

[TragicMonkey]

I suspect she was told to say controversial things, to keep the ratings up.

[dudalb]

Yeah,I smell manfactured "controversy" here.
But I am betting that after the Rosie fiasco,Whoopi has been warned not to go near 9/11 Conspiracy crap.

[EGarrett]

Originally Posted by Molinaro

From here.

How do you think it would go over if I tried to excuse racist behaviour by saying that it's part of the culture down there in the south? Do you think Whoopie would buy that?

I don't see where race comes into this. She said it's common in the area where he's from. Unless there's some context that's left out of your post and the article, I'm not offended by that nor would I be if anyone else of any color had said it.

[gnome]

Comes to the question of whether she's excusing it or explaining it.

It's a good answer to the question of WHY anyone in today's society would be mixed up in something like that.

Isn't it worthwhile, when studying criminal behavior, to learn more than just, 'Because he's an evil prick!"?

[leftysergeant]

An admission that barbaric sports are common in the lwo-rent areas of the south. So?

A bumpkin is a bumpkin, regardless the color.

But when you get out of an area, it is better to leave some aspects of the culture behind.

So Whoopie is not shocked and amazed. She doesn't want to lynch him.
eh

[CFLarsen]

Is Jeff Foxworthy racist, then?

[Katana]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Is Jeff Foxworthy racist, then?

I don't know. I can't say that I'm much of a fan of his either.

What do you think?

Or maybe I should say: Why do you ask?

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by Katana

I don't know. I can't say that I'm much of a fan of his either.

What do you think?

Or maybe I should say: Why do you ask?

Because it seems to me that Jeff Foxworthy basically uses the same stereotypes as Whoppie Goldberg.

Maybe I'm wrong.

[HarryKeogh]

My opinion which probably agrees partly with Whoopi: Michael Vick knows what he did was illegal but he doesn't think it was wrong.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by HarryKeogh

My opinion which probably agrees partly with Whoopi: Michael Vick knows what he did was illegal but he doesn't think it was wrong.

He will have a year in prison and probably a year of unemployment after that to contemplate the error of his ways.

[baron]

Whoopsie Goldberg! Don't make me laugh (don't worry, she won't).

She's talentless, she can't act, she sure as heck isn't funny and to top it off she she looks like the canker on a pitbull's arse. All these things point to her desperately courting controversy in a last-ditch attempt to cling onto the limelight.

[skeptifem]

god thats a really terrible thing to imply about black people...

[ponderingturtle]

Well I do rember hearing William C. Rhoden on NPR wondering why he should have is career ruined for such unrelated crimes. Apparently he thinks that it is unusual to have long term affects on your carreer for crimes that are not related to it.

Link

[pgwenthold]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Because it seems to me that Jeff Foxworthy basically uses the same stereotypes as Whoppie Goldberg.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Jeff Foxworthy talks about having old cars in the yard and using Cool Whip bowls for salad. Do you have an example of where he talked about doing something illegal?

The closest I can find is going to a family reunion to pick up girls, but first cousins are off limits in some places.

I think the race comparison is worthwhile. Would anyone consider it in anyway acceptable if someone talked about while segregration is wrong, it is part of the southern culture and therefore we should be understanding of where it comes from? That argument hasn't gone over well in the arguments of the confederate flag.

[UserGoogol]

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Jeff Foxworthy talks about having old cars in the yard and using Cool Whip bowls for salad. Do you have an example of where he talked about doing something illegal?

Not off the top of my head, but what difference would that make? Stereotypes are stereotypes whether or not they concern themselves with behavior can get you in trouble with the law. If you say some group of people is stupid or that they're thieves, it's bad either way.

[Phil]

Quote:

"You know from his background this is not an unusual thing for where he comes from," said Goldberg.

"There are certain things that are indicative to certain parts of our country."

I didn't realize there was a part of this country that was a hotbed for dog fighting.

Is she talking about the south?

I live in the southern US, and I gotta tell you, I don't think so. Fighting and slaughtering dogs is not "indicative" of anything in my world.

Rural south maybe?

Well, the folks participating in dog fighting in the rural south are the exception, not the norm. They are certainly not indicative of anyone or anything.

I think Whoopie is either an idiot, or a mouthpiece for the producers. Either way, she jumped the dog fighting arena years ago.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Jeff Foxworthy talks about having old cars in the yard and using Cool Whip bowls for salad. Do you have an example of where he talked about doing something illegal?

The closest I can find is going to a family reunion to pick up girls, but first cousins are off limits in some places.

I think the race comparison is worthwhile. Would anyone consider it in anyway acceptable if someone talked about while segregration is wrong, it is part of the southern culture and therefore we should be understanding of where it comes from? That argument hasn't gone over well in the arguments of the confederate flag.

I believe he made jokes about his relatives taking all the towels and such from the hotel.

[gnome]

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

I think the race comparison is worthwhile. Would anyone consider it in anyway acceptable if someone talked about while segregration is wrong, it is part of the southern culture and therefore we should be understanding of where it comes from? That argument hasn't gone over well in the arguments of the confederate flag.

It depends on what "understanding" the person is asking for. If it means making a special case of the matter to give racists a free pass, then no. If it means learning the roots of segregation and understanding why an otherwise respectable person might have an objectionable opinion, then why not? It would certainly help in resolving the matter if you know that the people you disagree with have reasons, and aren't just jerks.

[The Painter]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Maybe I'm wrong.

This is the most amazing thing I've ever read.

[Molinaro]

Originally Posted by EGarrett

I don't see where race comes into this. She said it's common in the area where he's from. Unless there's some context that's left out of your post and the article, I'm not offended by that nor would I be if anyone else of any color had said it.

I didn't mean to imply that she had a racist basis for her comments. I simply gave another example of how wrong it is to justify the indefensible by crying tradition, or culture.

[bigred]

Originally Posted by Phil

Is she talking about the south?

I live in the southern US, and I gotta tell you, I don't think so. Fighting and slaughtering dogs is not "indicative" of anything in my world.

Rural south maybe?

No, the BLACK south. It's not exactly a secret. The tragedy is that it's taken this long and a case this high-profile to bring it out. But even now nobody dares mention the elephant in the room for fear of the dreaded and all-powerful race card.

PS I lived in Vick's neck of the woods eg Hampton Roads (including some not so prestigious areas) for many years and feel I can safely say she is quite full of it. It's hardly a hotbed of dog fighting.

Remember kids: in America, blacks aren't racist. By definition. This is why she can make such laughable comments and get away with it, just like many others do. Course most whites are. You know, "THE MAN." Buncha closet KKKers I tell ya. In fact......SAAAYYYyyyy......anyone in the KKK should be excused. It's not their fault; it's their "cultural background."

Quote:

I think Whoopie is either an idiot

Not to mention a flaming racist, apologist, and hypocrite. In other breaking news, ice is cold, water is wet, and the sky is blue. But she'll have plenty of backers guaranteed. Hell Vick still has a ton of fans who either refuse to believe his guilt or try to explain it away like this mindless idiot.


The good ol' race issue in America.......the very heart of bizarro stupidity...(hell outright lunacy)

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Jeff Foxworthy talks about having old cars in the yard and using Cool Whip bowls for salad. Do you have an example of where he talked about doing something illegal?

The closest I can find is going to a family reunion to pick up girls, but first cousins are off limits in some places.

A couple of examples involving crime:

Quote:

You might be a redneck if…

. . . you were acquitted for murdering your first wife after she threw out your Elvis 45’s.

. . . you’ve ever come home and found crime scene tape across your front porch.

. . . the last time you saw your daddy outside, he was picking up trash, chained to three other guys.

. . . your favorite T-shirt is declared offensive in at least 13 states.

. . . you’ve ever stolen toilet paper.

. . . you think a hot tub is a stolen bathroom fixture.

. . . you think “Ross Perot” is how your cousin Ross got out of jail early.

[gnome]

I still hear people saying she's an apologist/justifier. Nobody has yet shown where she said it was OK or less serious because of her explanation.

[Spindrift]

I kinda like Whoopie, but I have to say this is a bit over the top. Just because it's popular in one area of the country doesn't make it okay. As I recall, lynching was pretty popular in that area as well.

[shecky]

Quote:

Quote:
"You know from his background this is not an unusual thing for where he comes from," said Goldberg.

"How about dog torture and dog murdering," Behar asked.

"Unfortunately it's part of the thing," Goldberg replied.

"You're a dog lover. For a lot of people dogs are sport," she added.

Is what she said not true? Is dogfighting not uncommon from his background? Are dogs not sport for lots of people? Would she be a racist for saying certain Asian cultures eat dogs?

If she's lying (and I don't know if she is), I can justify criticizing her. But I'd venture to guess she's not.

Quote:

Would she be saying the same if he were white?

There are plenty of white folks who enjoy dogfighting. Latin American and Filipino, too. I'm guessing if he were white and from that kind of background, she'd probably say the same thing.

Frankly, I think many Americans are way too emotional and irrational over the issue. The vehement reaction of the whole episode seems to prove it.

[Molinaro]

Originally Posted by shecky

Is what she said not true? Is dogfighting not uncommon from his background? Are dogs not sport for lots of people? Would she be a racist for saying certain Asian cultures eat dogs?

If she's lying (and I don't know if she is), I can justify criticizing her. But I'd venture to guess she's not.

There are plenty of white folks who enjoy dogfighting. Latin American and Filipino, too. I'm guessing if he were white and from that kind of background, she'd probably say the same thing.

Frankly, I think many Americans are way too emotional and irrational over the issue. The vehement reaction of the whole episode seems to prove it.

Are you equating her comments with something like, "the sun rises in the morning". That is to say, should it to be characterized as a factual statement without any implied moral commentary?

I most certainly don't see it that way. It would make no sense whatsover to point out what she did if she was not trying to address the morality of the issue, or to offer some justification for Vick's actions.

[shecky]

Originally Posted by Molinaro

Are you equating her comments with something like, "the sun rises in the morning". That is to say, should it to be characterized as a factual statement without any implied moral commentary?

I most certainly don't see it that way. It would make no sense whatsover to point out what she did if she was not trying to address the morality of the issue, or to offer some justification for Vick's actions.

So what if it is moral commentary? If what she said is true, her moral judgement of the incident seems to me of little consequence, no more or less important than yours. If what she says isn't true, however, she can be criticized for making false assumptions.

[Molinaro]

Well you seem to have alot to say about something that is of no consequence to you. I, on the other hand, do care when public figures say stupid things.

[mumblethrax]

Originally Posted by Molinaro

I most certainly don't see it that way. It would make no sense whatsover to point out what she did if she was not trying to address the morality of the issue, or to offer some justification for Vick's actions.

It would make a great deal of sense, if the point she's making is about diplomacy. If there is a cultural difference in attitudes towards dogfighting (and I think it's pretty clear that there is), then it's highly counterproductive for the mainstream culture to be perceived as crucifying Vick. The result will be a race relation problem on top of an animal abuse case, which is more or less what we now have. I don't doubt that he knew what he was doing was illegal, but I don't see any reason to believe that he had a sense of just how wrong the rest of society considers this. Hell, I was surprised by the mainstream reaction to this case.

Incidentally, I don't think there's a problem with calling into question Vick's moral culpability, since it doesn't entail erosion of the prohibition on dogfighting itself. There's a difference between "Dogfighting is wrong" and "You know that dogfighting is wrong." It can be difficult for people to think their way out of the box their cultural background puts them in, and it's deeply unrealistic to assume that Vick ought to know this, just because we do. None of this is to say that there's anything to prevent us from prosecuting him for abusing dogs.

And it's worth again pointing out the deep hypocrisy on display here: the suspicious use of the word 'murder' by Goldberg's co-host, for example.

[baron]

Originally Posted by mumblethrax

I don't doubt that he knew what he was doing was illegal, but I don't see any reason to believe that he had a sense of just how wrong the rest of society considers this. Hell, I was surprised by the mainstream reaction to this case.

Whether he knows it or not is irrelevant. He is not fit to be part of society and he should be locked up and given psychological help until he can genuinely understand that his actions were abhorrant to any civilised person.

[mumblethrax]

Originally Posted by baron

Whether he knows it or not is irrelevant. He is not fit to be part of society and he should be locked up and given psychological help until he can genuinely understand that his actions were abhorrant to any civilised person.

It is relevant to the question of moral culpability, which is the point I was making. Whether or not we ought to re-Neducate him is a separate question. Again, there is a difference between judging an action wrong and judging a person capable of choosing to do otherwise, and the latter is necessary before a plausible argument can be made that he's responsible for his actions. I'm not saying we should let him go without trying to address the harm he's done and the harm he might do in the future, and neither, I think, is Goldberg.

[aerosolben]

Originally Posted by bigred

PS I lived in Vick's neck of the woods eg Hampton Roads (including some not so prestigious areas) for many years and feel I can safely say she is quite full of it. It's hardly a hotbed of dog fighting.

This is a key point. Vick is from Newport News, not rural Mississippi - Whoopi's point is not only inappropriate, but inaccurate.

[Psi Baba]

Originally Posted by Phil

I didn't realize there was a part of this country that was a hotbed for dog fighting.

Is she talking about the south?

She said he's "from the south . . . the deep south." Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't know that Newport News, VA qualified as the deep south. He wasn't living in a swamp cut off from civilization for cripes sake. And we're talking about a guy who was born in 1980, not 1940.

Originally Posted by shecky

Is what she said not true? Is dogfighting not uncommon from his background? Are dogs not sport for lots of people? Would she be a racist for saying certain Asian cultures eat dogs?

Actually, she did say that! She likened it to "Chinese people eating cats and dogs" (of course, she meant Koreans, but I'm sure to her they all look alike).

What people who want to defend Vick based on his "background" tend to forget is that he was actively participating in this during the last 6 years, not for a brief period in his past. If it had come out that "Michael Vick had participated in dogfighting for a period of 8 months in 1998" or something to that effect, then we could write it off as something that was part of his culture, and good on him for getting himself out of a despicable lifestyle. But no, he was doing this at a time when he should have been more than aware of the nature of that activity. Come on, the guy went to V. Tech, entered the NFL, and so has long since been fully integrated into civilized society (I'll bet he even has a teevee and everything!). If he didn't think dogfighting was wrong, then why didn't he do it out in the open? Why build a compound of secret, black buildings in the woods behind a back fence?

[shecky]

Quote:

If he didn't think dogfighting was wrong, then why didn't he do it out in the open? Why build a compound of secret, black buildings in the woods behind a back fence?

The same reason one may not smoke pot in public, yet still not think it's morally wrong.

Quote:

This is a key point. Vick is from Newport News, not rural Mississippi

Dogfighting culture can't exist anywhere but the most backwater regions of MS?

Quote:

Whether he knows it or not is irrelevant. He is not fit to be part of society and he should be locked up and given psychological help until he can genuinely understand that his actions were abhorrant to any civilised person.

This is crazy talk. Blood sports are enjoyed around the world by many otherwise ordinary folks, with no need of imprisonment or psychological help. Perhaps one could argue that such participants are in fact a risk to society. But that would require some meaningful data.

[baron]

Originally Posted by shecky

This is crazy talk. Blood sports are enjoyed around the world by many otherwise ordinary folks

And child molestation is often carried out by otherwise upstanding members of society. What's your point?

Originally Posted by shecky

Perhaps one could argue that such participants are in fact a risk to society. But that would require some meaningful data.

Like the numerous studies where animal cruelty in childhood to be clearly related to violence and murder in later life? (e.g.http://www.mmaonline.net/Publication...gust/Robin.cfm , http://www.tulsaspca.org/articles/abuse_history.html, http://usfnews.usf.edu/page.cfm?link=article&aid=358 )

[mumblethrax]

Originally Posted by Psi Baba

Actually, she did say that! She likened it to "Chinese people eating cats and dogs" (of course, she meant Koreans, but I'm sure to her they all look alike).

Why would she mean Koreans? Dog is certainly still eaten in China.

[aerosolben]

Originally Posted by shecky

Dogfighting culture can't exist anywhere but the most backwater regions of MS?

It's an example of 'deep south', which Newport News is not.

[MaGZ]

Originally Posted by Molinaro

From here.




How do you think it would go over if I tried to excuse racist behaviour by saying that it's part of the culture down there in the south? Do you think Whoopie would buy that?

It is not part of the culture of the South; it is part of Black Culture of the South.