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truethat · 10th September 2007, 07:03 AM

In reading Genesis and discussing the creation (according to Biblical text) it occurred to me that when God creates the world he looks at it and says everything he made was Good.

In Genesis 3 when Adam and Eve are being judged for eating the tree of life he says that ---they have become like us knowing Good and Evil.

If you consider this, God himself defines everything in the world as Good and only himself as Evil.

What do you make of this, those who consider God good and righteous.

Darat · 10th September 2007, 07:35 AM

I was following you up to "If you consider this, God himself defines everything in the world as Good and only himself as Evil." - I don't see where that comes from.

truethat · 10th September 2007, 07:46 AM

Genesis 1:31

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

So the things God created by God were all GOOD

Genesis 3:22

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

You see if you actually read the Genesis accounts you can see a lot of interesting information. If a believer suggests that they are indeed the word of God, you can see that God made everything GOOD.

So where did Evil come from? Well God self describes himself as EVIL?

SomeGuy · 10th September 2007, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by truethat

Genesis 1:31

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

So the things God created by God were all GOOD

Genesis 3:22

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

You see if you actually read the Genesis accounts you can see a lot of interesting information. If a believer suggests that they are indeed the word of God, you can see that God made everything GOOD.

So where did Evil come from? Well God self describes himself as EVIL?

No He describes himself (and the choir of angels.. hence the us) as knowing good and evil.

The real problem is how can an all-knowing all-powerful god create a paradise for the first humans, and have them screw it up in no time....

Eventhough god had seen it was all good....

Nucular · 10th September 2007, 07:57 AM

Surely God says he simply 'knows' good and evil, rather than being evil?

You might argue that since God made the world, and it was 'good' (if we assume the original Hebrew actually means good as opposed to evil, rather than 'well made' or something), then the only evil around must subsequently have come from God.

But I don't think God describes himself as evil just there.

Darat · 10th September 2007, 07:57 AM

Which choir of angels?

truethat · 10th September 2007, 08:12 AM

Yeah what Choir of Angels?

US is a whole nother ball game. But if you want to get into the nitty gritty, God LIED to mankind and the serpent told the truth.

God said:

but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'

But they didn't touch it or eat it and die.

What happened is that God killed them for eating it. He didn't say "If you eat this I will kill you and punish you for your disobedience" He said IT would cause them to die.

That's like me saying "If you go in the pool you will drown" and then you go in the pool and you are floating around and I come and hold you under the water and drown you, and then I say "See, I told you you would drown"

But here's what the serpent says:

Genesis 3:4-5

Quote:

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

And then later when God busts them God says

Quote:

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Hmmmmmm

So the SERPENT is the one who told the truth, God basically murdered them and lied and admitted that he knows evil.

c4ts · 10th September 2007, 08:15 AM

Eve was made from an evil rib! Therefore the evil in Eden was ribs!

Dancing David · 10th September 2007, 08:21 AM

The actual issue is that the god of the bible is not the creator of the world. There is AL whose nature is unknowable and undefined, that is the creator. Then there is the demiurgos YHVH (blood soakesd sinai dust devil) who is the plauge of the bible.

Steven Howard · 10th September 2007, 09:45 AM

If I'm right, this is a fallacy of equivocation, playing off two different meanings of the word "good." This is what I think you're saying:

Premise 1) God sees that everything He created is good. (Genesis 1:31*)

Premise 2) God can tell the difference between good and evil. (Genesis 3:22*)

Unstated premises:

Premise 3) God created everything that exists, except for Himself.

Premise 4) Nothing can be both good and evil.

Premise 5) At least one evil thing exists.

Conclusions:

C1 (From P1 & P2): Everything created by God is good.

C2 (From C1 & P3): Everything that exists, except for God, is good.

C3 (From C2 & P4): Nothing that exists, except for God, can be evil.

C4 (From C3 & P5): God is evil.

But, as I say, it's not necessarily the case that good always means not evil. I can say, "This is a good sandwich" but unless I'm being silly I wouldn't say "This sandwich is not evil" to mean the same thing.

*I'm taking your word for the Scripture references.

dementedcactus · 10th September 2007, 10:41 AM

For starters, When God says 'you gon die sucka' he refers to humans having the ABILITY to die. Once they ate the food they gained both the knowledge of good and evil and the ability to die. Unfortunately we can't stop using it

Unless you consider the serpent as part of the Garden of Eden, then God was the evilest thing in it just by knowing what evil was. Really the serpent was eviler since he/she/it DID something evil (which by bible standards is everything that goes against the will of God, so ALOT).

Bikewer · 10th September 2007, 11:00 AM

I see evil in God's lack of R&D. Being omniscient and all, he should have known his creations were going to screw up....Yet he created them anyway.

Come to think of it, he didn't do too well with the angels either....

Back to the laboratory!

dementedcactus · 10th September 2007, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

I see evil in God's lack of R&D. Being omniscient and all, he should have known his creations were going to screw up....Yet he created them anyway.

Come to think of it, he didn't do too well with the angels either....

Back to the laboratory!

Exactly. So does that mean that God does NOT know all and see all?

plumjam · 10th September 2007, 12:58 PM

Evil is a relic:

http://www.avatarmeherbaba.org/erics/goodevil.htm

truethat · 10th September 2007, 08:01 PM

God wasn't referring to a sandwich. That's a modern interpretation of the word GOOD.

Ichneumonwasp · 11th September 2007, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by truethat

God wasn't referring to a sandwich. That's a modern interpretation of the word GOOD.

Are you honestly suggeting that rocks and trees are ethically good?

Ichneumonwasp · 11th September 2007, 03:37 AM

Besides, within the second creation account, Eve clearly has knowledge of good and bad for she saw that the fruit was good to eat.

She simply lacked knowledge of good and evil.

You were equivocating between these two meanings of the word 'good'.

Skeptical Greg · 11th September 2007, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by dementedcactus

.... Really the serpent was eviler since he/she/it DID something evil (which by bible standards is everything that goes against the will of God, so ALOT).

That's another confusing thing.
How can you go against the will of an omnipotent God ?

dementedcactus · 11th September 2007, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Diogenes

That's another confusing thing.
How can you go against the will of an omnipotent God ?

Well, from what i've read (A Course in Miracles) God can't go against himself. He cannot be wrong - hence omnipotence and all that good shiz. But, it was his WILL that mankind have freewill. So it's logical that he also gave his angels free will too. Cause It would suck to have to micromanage all the time, you know? It makes sense that he would give them intelligence.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th September 2007, 09:58 PM

Again a debate on the philosophical and symbolic meanings in Genesis. Again I say, there was a story, it might have had meaning thousands of years before Genesis was written. The story changed over time. It differs little from other Creation myths. Modern man seeks to attach significance and meaning to the nuances of the story to make sense of it.

Can you imagine debating the philosophy of why another god put "turtles all the way down"?

articulett · 11th September 2007, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

Again a debate on the philosophical and symbolic meanings in Genesis. Again I say, there was a story, it might have had meaning thousands of years before Genesis was written. The story changed over time. It differs little from other Creation myths. Modern man seeks to attach significance and meaning to the nuances of the story to make sense of it.

Can you imagine debating the philosophy of why another god put "turtles all the way down"?

How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

Damien Evans · 12th September 2007, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by articulett

How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

Depends on the size of the angels, the size of the pin and whether the angels are coordinated or not.

Hokulele · 12th September 2007, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by articulett

How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

None. Dancing is a sin you silly person.

RandFan · 12th September 2007, 12:37 AM

Yes, let's argue over ancient creation myths.

Babylonian Creation Myth
African Creation Myth -
Korean & Japanese Creation Myth comparisons
Navajo Creation Myth
Norse Creation Myth
Creation Myth from India
Japanese Creation Myth
Comanche Creation Myth
Chinese Creation Myth
Chelan Creation Myth
Pima Creation Myth
Mayan Creation Myth
Miwok Creation Myth
Scandinavian (Norse) Creation Myths
Salish Creation Myth
Australian Aboriginal Creation Myth
Hopi Creation Myth
Tahitian Creation Myth
Yokut Creation Myth
Comanche Creation Myth
Egyptian Creation Myths
African - Mande, Yoruba Creation Myths
Micmac Creation Myth
Lakota Creation Myth
Several Creation Stories India, Romania, Mongol, etc..
Chinese Creation / Flood Myth
Assyrian / Babylonian Creation Myth
Maori Creation Myth
Aztec Creation Myth
Digueno Creation Myth
Apache Creation Myth
African Creation Myths
Dakota Creation Myth
Hungarian Creation Myth
Iroquois Creation Myth
Inuit Creation Myth
Huron Creation Myth
Hawaiian Creation Myth

Beerina · 12th September 2007, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

Depends on the size of the angels, the size of the pin and whether the angels are coordinated or not.

Well, see, you could be wrong. If the angels are mutually ethereal, they could dance in the same location simultaneously. Hence the limit would be the total number of angels in existence, at least up to their fractional weight upon the pin to what it can support in that gravitational field. Oh, I just thought of something. It's possible that, though ethereal, their phase-state may occupy a small but finite amount of real-world real estate, and hence a finite number of overlapping angels may be able to occupy a sincle spot.

Assuming this, you'd probably do better with thinner angels, both for the space and the weight issue.

truethat · 12th September 2007, 07:11 AM

We're not arguing over creation myths. I'm analyzing a text and the meaning. Sorry that's so bonkers for people to deal with.

Dancing David · 12th September 2007, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

Again a debate on the philosophical and symbolic meanings in Genesis. Again I say, there was a story, it might have had meaning thousands of years before Genesis was written. The story changed over time. It differs little from other Creation myths. Modern man seeks to attach significance and meaning to the nuances of the story to make sense of it.

Can you imagine debating the philosophy of why another god put "turtles all the way down"?

No NO NOOO!

There are four elephants and then the Great Cosmic Turtle A'Tuin.

Dancing David · 12th September 2007, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by truethat

We're not arguing over creation myths. I'm analyzing a text and the meaning. Sorry that's so bonkers for people to deal with.

Perhaps the Qabbalah will have more answers. AL is the creator, YHVH destroyed the first creation.

Adam and Eve are incarnated spirits who were conjoined in some myths.

Dark Jaguar · 12th September 2007, 12:09 PM

I'd say the snake wasn't up to any good either. If God's the tyranical dictator, Satan seems to be the leader of the resistance who secretly just wants the throne for himself.

Slimething · 12th September 2007, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

We're not arguing over creation myths. I'm analyzing a text and the meaning. Sorry that's so bonkers for people to deal with.

It's not too difficult but you're working with a crowd that believes the bible is a fairy tale. No one takes fairy tales too literally. I agree with your argument as it's logical but, in the end, so what?

It would be nifty to trot this out if ever confronted with a bible literalist, though! That would be a lot of fun.

CapelDodger · 12th September 2007, 02:58 PM

As a gardener myself, I wonder why have the trees there in the first place? I wouldn't plant yew-trees in a cow-pasture. Has this god no sense of responsibilty?

CapelDodger · 12th September 2007, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Jaguar

I'd say the snake wasn't up to any good either. If God's the tyranical dictator, Satan seems to be the leader of the resistance who secretly just wants the throne for himself.

There's a fine line between initiative and insubordination.

CapelDodger · 12th September 2007, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Perhaps the Qabbalah will have more answers. AL is the creator, YHVH destroyed the first creation.

The way I read it, the demiurge created the material world, which is essentially evil, while El created the spiritual world, which is also essentially evil. I call this concept Sado-Manichaeism.

articulett · 12th September 2007, 03:22 PM

How come god did cryptically test satan's faith... satan didn't have to "believe" or have faith-- god made him and then showed himself and still his "free will" (made by god) seems to have damned him... or is he just the guardsman of gods torment ground... god invented hell, right. And why wouldn't you want your beloved children to "bite from the tree of knowledge"-- why entrap them unless you're kind of a sick MF... Why not mention DNA... and how human were Adam and Eve? How are Neanderthal's related? Talking snakes? What language did they speak? Was god indistinguishable from a voice in their head the way he is to people now a-days.

I can't begin to fathom what the story means... and it's not because I'm bonkers-- it's because the story is bonkers for anyone who thinks.

Skeptic Ginger · 12th September 2007, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Yes, let's argue over ancient creation myths.

Not argue, Rand, discuss the philosophy and symbolism in the story.

My point was people are attributing meaning to stuff that might not have any meaning.

Dancing David · 13th September 2007, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Jaguar

I'd say the snake wasn't up to any good either. If God's the tyranical dictator, Satan seems to be the leader of the resistance who secretly just wants the throne for himself.

Or it is a cipher for snake worshipping cults.

Dancing David · 13th September 2007, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

The way I read it, the demiurge created the material world, which is essentially evil, while El created the spiritual world, which is also essentially evil. I call this concept Sado-Manichaeism.

Great pun!

"I think Evil turned out rather well , don't you?" -God
Time Bandits

Dancing David · 13th September 2007, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by articulett

How come god did cryptically test satan's faith... satan didn't have to "believe" or have faith-- god made him and then showed himself and still his "free will" (made by god) seems to have damned him... or is he just the guardsman of gods torment ground... god invented hell, right. And why wouldn't you want your beloved children to "bite from the tree of knowledge"-- why entrap them unless you're kind of a sick MF... Why not mention DNA... and how human were Adam and Eve? How are Neanderthal's related? Talking snakes? What language did they speak? Was god indistinguishable from a voice in their head the way he is to people now a-days.

I can't begin to fathom what the story means... and it's not because I'm bonkers-- it's because the story is bonkers for anyone who thinks.

AL and YHVH were not the only creators?

10th September 2007, 07:03 AM	#1
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005	God is the only evil thing in the Garden of Eden In reading Genesis and discussing the creation (according to Biblical text) it occurred to me that when God creates the world he looks at it and says everything he made was Good. In Genesis 3 when Adam and Eve are being judged for eating the tree of life he says that ---they have become like us knowing Good and Evil. If you consider this, God himself defines everything in the world as Good and only himself as Evil. What do you make of this, those who consider God good and righteous.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005

10th September 2007, 07:35 AM	#2
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,974	I was following you up to "If you consider this, God himself defines everything in the world as Good and only himself as Evil." - I don't see where that comes from.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

10th September 2007, 07:46 AM	#3
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005	Genesis 1:31 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. So the things God created by God were all GOOD Genesis 3:22 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." You see if you actually read the Genesis accounts you can see a lot of interesting information. If a believer suggests that they are indeed the word of God, you can see that God made everything GOOD. So where did Evil come from? Well God self describes himself as EVIL?
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005

10th September 2007, 07:51 AM	#4
SomeGuy Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 497	Originally Posted by truethat Genesis 1:31 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. So the things God created by God were all GOOD Genesis 3:22 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." You see if you actually read the Genesis accounts you can see a lot of interesting information. If a believer suggests that they are indeed the word of God, you can see that God made everything GOOD. So where did Evil come from? Well God self describes himself as EVIL? No He describes himself (and the choir of angels.. hence the us) as knowing good and evil. The real problem is how can an all-knowing all-powerful god create a paradise for the first humans, and have them screw it up in no time.... Eventhough god had seen it was all good....
SomeGuy Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 497

10th September 2007, 07:57 AM	#5
Nucular Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream Posts: 3,050	Surely God says he simply 'knows' good and evil, rather than being evil? You might argue that since God made the world, and it was 'good' (if we assume the original Hebrew actually means good as opposed to evil, rather than 'well made' or something), then the only evil around must subsequently have come from God. But I don't think God describes himself as evil just there.
	__________________ From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis)

10th September 2007, 08:12 AM	#7
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005	Yeah what Choir of Angels? US is a whole nother ball game. But if you want to get into the nitty gritty, God LIED to mankind and the serpent told the truth. God said: but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' But they didn't touch it or eat it and die. What happened is that God killed them for eating it. He didn't say "If you eat this I will kill you and punish you for your disobedience" He said IT would cause them to die. That's like me saying "If you go in the pool you will drown" and then you go in the pool and you are floating around and I come and hold you under the water and drown you, and then I say "See, I told you you would drown" But here's what the serpent says: Genesis 3:4-5 Quote: "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." And then later when God busts them God says Quote: 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Hmmmmmm So the SERPENT is the one who told the truth, God basically murdered them and lied and admitted that he knows evil.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005

10th September 2007, 08:15 AM	#8
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Eve was made from an evil rib! Therefore the evil in Eden was ribs!
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10th September 2007, 08:21 AM	#9
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,919	The actual issue is that the god of the bible is not the creator of the world. There is AL whose nature is unknowable and undefined, that is the creator. Then there is the demiurgos YHVH (blood soakesd sinai dust devil) who is the plauge of the bible.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

10th September 2007, 09:45 AM	#10
Steven Howard Custom Title Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 1,798	If I'm right, this is a fallacy of equivocation, playing off two different meanings of the word "good." This is what I think you're saying: Premise 1) God sees that everything He created is good. (Genesis 1:31) Premise 2) God can tell the difference between good and evil. (Genesis 3:22) Unstated premises: Premise 3) God created everything that exists, except for Himself. Premise 4) Nothing can be both good and evil. Premise 5) At least one evil thing exists. Conclusions: C1 (From P1 & P2): Everything created by God is good. C2 (From C1 & P3): Everything that exists, except for God, is good. C3 (From C2 & P4): Nothing that exists, except for God, can be evil. C4 (From C3 & P5): God is evil. But, as I say, it's not necessarily the case that good always means not evil. I can say, "This is a good sandwich" but unless I'm being silly I wouldn't say "This sandwich is not evil" to mean the same thing. *I'm taking your word for the Scripture references.
	__________________ See also:LiveJournal flickr Last edited by Steven Howard; 10th September 2007 at 09:53 AM.

10th September 2007, 10:41 AM	#11
dementedcactus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 71	Well now... For starters, When God says 'you gon die sucka' he refers to humans having the ABILITY to die. Once they ate the food they gained both the knowledge of good and evil and the ability to die. Unfortunately we can't stop using it Unless you consider the serpent as part of the Garden of Eden, then God was the evilest thing in it just by knowing what evil was. Really the serpent was eviler since he/she/it DID something evil (which by bible standards is everything that goes against the will of God, so ALOT).
dementedcactus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 71

10th September 2007, 11:00 AM	#12
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,613	I see evil in God's lack of R&D. Being omniscient and all, he should have known his creations were going to screw up....Yet he created them anyway. Come to think of it, he didn't do too well with the angels either.... Back to the laboratory!

10th September 2007, 11:57 AM	#13
dementedcactus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 71	Originally Posted by Bikewer I see evil in God's lack of R&D. Being omniscient and all, he should have known his creations were going to screw up....Yet he created them anyway. Come to think of it, he didn't do too well with the angels either.... Back to the laboratory! Exactly. So does that mean that God does NOT know all and see all?
dementedcactus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 71

10th September 2007, 12:58 PM	#14
plumjam Banned Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Valencia, Spain Posts: 7,837	Evil is a relic: http://www.avatarmeherbaba.org/erics/goodevil.htm

10th September 2007, 08:01 PM	#15
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005	God wasn't referring to a sandwich. That's a modern interpretation of the word GOOD.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005

11th September 2007, 03:29 AM	#16
Ichneumonwasp Guest Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,221	Originally Posted by truethat God wasn't referring to a sandwich. That's a modern interpretation of the word GOOD. Are you honestly suggeting that rocks and trees are ethically good?
Ichneumonwasp Guest Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,221

11th September 2007, 03:37 AM	#17
Ichneumonwasp Guest Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,221	Besides, within the second creation account, Eve clearly has knowledge of good and bad for she saw that the fruit was good to eat. She simply lacked knowledge of good and evil. You were equivocating between these two meanings of the word 'good'.
Ichneumonwasp Guest Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,221

11th September 2007, 04:49 AM	#18
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,892	Originally Posted by dementedcactus .... Really the serpent was eviler since he/she/it DID something evil (which by bible standards is everything that goes against the will of God, so ALOT). That's another confusing thing. How can you go against the will of an omnipotent God ?
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11th September 2007, 08:47 AM	#19
dementedcactus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 71	Originally Posted by Diogenes That's another confusing thing. How can you go against the will of an omnipotent God ? Well, from what i've read (A Course in Miracles) God can't go against himself. He cannot be wrong - hence omnipotence and all that good shiz. But, it was his WILL that mankind have freewill. So it's logical that he also gave his angels free will too. Cause It would suck to have to micromanage all the time, you know? It makes sense that he would give them intelligence.
dementedcactus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 71

11th September 2007, 09:58 PM	#20
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Again a debate on the philosophical and symbolic meanings in Genesis. Again I say, there was a story, it might have had meaning thousands of years before Genesis was written. The story changed over time. It differs little from other Creation myths. Modern man seeks to attach significance and meaning to the nuances of the story to make sense of it. Can you imagine debating the philosophy of why another god put "turtles all the way down"?
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

11th September 2007, 11:04 PM	#21
articulett Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Las Vegas, NV (and the ethers of cyberspace) Posts: 15,786	Originally Posted by skeptigirl Again a debate on the philosophical and symbolic meanings in Genesis. Again I say, there was a story, it might have had meaning thousands of years before Genesis was written. The story changed over time. It differs little from other Creation myths. Modern man seeks to attach significance and meaning to the nuances of the story to make sense of it. Can you imagine debating the philosophy of why another god put "turtles all the way down"? How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

12th September 2007, 12:13 AM	#22
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,505	Originally Posted by articulett How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin? Depends on the size of the angels, the size of the pin and whether the angels are coordinated or not.
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death

12th September 2007, 12:26 AM	#23
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,347	Originally Posted by articulett How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin? None. Dancing is a sin you silly person.
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

12th September 2007, 12:37 AM	#24
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,945	Yes, let's argue over ancient creation myths. Babylonian Creation Myth African Creation Myth - Korean & Japanese Creation Myth comparisons Navajo Creation Myth Norse Creation Myth Creation Myth from India Japanese Creation Myth Comanche Creation Myth Chinese Creation Myth Chelan Creation Myth Pima Creation Myth Mayan Creation Myth Miwok Creation Myth Scandinavian (Norse) Creation Myths Salish Creation Myth Australian Aboriginal Creation Myth Hopi Creation Myth Tahitian Creation Myth Yokut Creation Myth Comanche Creation Myth Egyptian Creation Myths African - Mande, Yoruba Creation Myths Micmac Creation Myth Lakota Creation Myth Several Creation Stories India, Romania, Mongol, etc.. Chinese Creation / Flood Myth Assyrian / Babylonian Creation Myth Maori Creation Myth Aztec Creation Myth Digueno Creation Myth Apache Creation Myth African Creation Myths Dakota Creation Myth Hungarian Creation Myth Iroquois Creation Myth Inuit Creation Myth Huron Creation Myth Hawaiian Creation Myth
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

12th September 2007, 07:09 AM	#25
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Damien Evans Depends on the size of the angels, the size of the pin and whether the angels are coordinated or not. Well, see, you could be wrong. If the angels are mutually ethereal, they could dance in the same location simultaneously. Hence the limit would be the total number of angels in existence, at least up to their fractional weight upon the pin to what it can support in that gravitational field. Oh, I just thought of something. It's possible that, though ethereal, their phase-state may occupy a small but finite amount of real-world real estate, and hence a finite number of overlapping angels may be able to occupy a sincle spot. Assuming this, you'd probably do better with thinner angels, both for the space and the weight issue.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

12th September 2007, 07:11 AM	#26
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005	We're not arguing over creation myths. I'm analyzing a text and the meaning. Sorry that's so bonkers for people to deal with.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005

12th September 2007, 08:34 AM	#27
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,919	Originally Posted by skeptigirl Again a debate on the philosophical and symbolic meanings in Genesis. Again I say, there was a story, it might have had meaning thousands of years before Genesis was written. The story changed over time. It differs little from other Creation myths. Modern man seeks to attach significance and meaning to the nuances of the story to make sense of it. Can you imagine debating the philosophy of why another god put "turtles all the way down"? No NO NOOO! There are four elephants and then the Great Cosmic Turtle A'Tuin.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

12th September 2007, 08:37 AM	#28
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,919	Originally Posted by truethat We're not arguing over creation myths. I'm analyzing a text and the meaning. Sorry that's so bonkers for people to deal with. Perhaps the Qabbalah will have more answers. AL is the creator, YHVH destroyed the first creation. Adam and Eve are incarnated spirits who were conjoined in some myths.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

12th September 2007, 12:09 PM	#29
Dark Jaguar Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,666	I'd say the snake wasn't up to any good either. If God's the tyranical dictator, Satan seems to be the leader of the resistance who secretly just wants the throne for himself.

12th September 2007, 12:19 PM	#30
Slimething Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Arizona USA Posts: 3,727	Originally Posted by truethat We're not arguing over creation myths. I'm analyzing a text and the meaning. Sorry that's so bonkers for people to deal with. It's not too difficult but you're working with a crowd that believes the bible is a fairy tale. No one takes fairy tales too literally. I agree with your argument as it's logical but, in the end, so what? It would be nifty to trot this out if ever confronted with a bible literalist, though! That would be a lot of fun.

12th September 2007, 02:58 PM	#31
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,760	As a gardener myself, I wonder why have the trees there in the first place? I wouldn't plant yew-trees in a cow-pasture. Has this god no sense of responsibilty?
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

12th September 2007, 03:00 PM	#32
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,760	Originally Posted by Dark Jaguar I'd say the snake wasn't up to any good either. If God's the tyranical dictator, Satan seems to be the leader of the resistance who secretly just wants the throne for himself. There's a fine line between initiative and insubordination.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

12th September 2007, 03:06 PM	#33
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,760	Originally Posted by Dancing David Perhaps the Qabbalah will have more answers. AL is the creator, YHVH destroyed the first creation. The way I read it, the demiurge created the material world, which is essentially evil, while El created the spiritual world, which is also essentially evil. I call this concept Sado-Manichaeism.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

12th September 2007, 03:22 PM	#34
articulett Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Las Vegas, NV (and the ethers of cyberspace) Posts: 15,786	How come god did cryptically test satan's faith... satan didn't have to "believe" or have faith-- god made him and then showed himself and still his "free will" (made by god) seems to have damned him... or is he just the guardsman of gods torment ground... god invented hell, right. And why wouldn't you want your beloved children to "bite from the tree of knowledge"-- why entrap them unless you're kind of a sick MF... Why not mention DNA... and how human were Adam and Eve? How are Neanderthal's related? Talking snakes? What language did they speak? Was god indistinguishable from a voice in their head the way he is to people now a-days. I can't begin to fathom what the story means... and it's not because I'm bonkers-- it's because the story is bonkers for anyone who thinks.

12th September 2007, 05:05 PM	#35
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by RandFan Yes, let's argue over ancient creation myths. Not argue, Rand, discuss the philosophy and symbolism in the story. My point was people are attributing meaning to stuff that might not have any meaning.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

13th September 2007, 07:37 AM	#36
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,919	Originally Posted by Dark Jaguar I'd say the snake wasn't up to any good either. If God's the tyranical dictator, Satan seems to be the leader of the resistance who secretly just wants the throne for himself. Or it is a cipher for snake worshipping cults.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager