Do athiests prefer The Catholic Church to Co$

AgeGap · 10th September 2007, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

It is interesting that most atheists are glad that it happens to the church of scientology, but would give a desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church.

This a a quote put up in the "latest commentary issues " part of the Forum. It was in response to a Belgian prosecutor recommending that the Co$ should stand trial for fraud and extortion.

Stand up all the athiests who would give a "desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church".

I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>.

How do others stand?

Jimbo07 · 10th September 2007, 08:01 AM

I know (have known) enough "well-meaning" Catholic priests to not directly label it a scam the same as Co$. You have to be pretty disingenuous to label all religion, at all times, as severely fraudulent.

What are the "good works" that Scientology does?

ImaginalDisc · 10th September 2007, 08:02 AM

That's like asking me if I'd rather be shot at point blank range with a rifle, or a shotgun.

Rasmus · 10th September 2007, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by AgeGap

This a a quote put up in the "latest commentary issues " part of the Forum. It was in response to a Belgian prosecutor recommending that the Co$ should stand trial for fraud and extortion.

Stand up all the athiests who would give a "desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church".

I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>.

How do others stand?

I would stand up. It would make my cheering look more authentic.

c4ts · 10th September 2007, 08:04 AM

Catholicism is one of the greatest intellectual frauds of all time. In a court of law, I'm afraid that there are no laws which exist to encompass the extent of their fraud and extortion. If the Pope told them all the moon was made of green cheese, they'd eat moon rocks with their crackers. The only good thing about the Catholic church is that their rule was never as absolute as they would like to believe, and so freedom of thought developed in spite of them.

Nucular · 10th September 2007, 08:08 AM

Depends who would be indicted in such a move. I'm sure there are Catholic priests who genuinely believe what they preach, just as there are Scientologists who genuinely believe what they preach. But the higher up the food chain you go in either church, the less sad I'd be to see it happen.

scratchy · 10th September 2007, 08:10 AM

I would be happy to see any part of the catholic church stand trial for fraud and exorsion, if and when cc commits any such act. And as big as that church is i would be surprised if anything like that never happened somewhere. With any such case its not the church itself that stands trial, but the persons involved.

Nucular · 10th September 2007, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by AgeGap

I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>.

By the way AgeGap, I believe it's a flying <Rule 10> you're not giving here, these days

AgeGap · 10th September 2007, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Nucular

By the way AgeGap, I believe it's a flying <Rule 10> you're not giving here, these days

Mea culpa, do i need sackcloth and ashes or auditing. Hmmm, i think i will start a poll.

ImaginalDisc · 10th September 2007, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by AgeGap

Mea culpa, do i need sackcloth and ashes or auditing. Hmmm, i think i will start a poll.

We prefer flowing chocolate fondue fountains by way of contrition.

By "we" I mean "I."

By "prefer" I mean "will find any excuse to ask for."

Gurdur · 10th September 2007, 08:32 AM

I would say that today the Co$ is much worse than the Catholic Church.

ponderingturtle · 10th September 2007, 08:37 AM

I would like to see the catholic church having to answer for its crimes. Not likely happen as most of the worst things that they do are not against laws, or they can use their status as a nation to get immunity from their crimes.

There is no church that I would have serious issues with them being charged with crimes, provided the the crime is not something like "being a member of X church" or something like that.

Basicly I think churches should be treated like any other private social organization

ponderingturtle · 10th September 2007, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Gurdur

I would say that today the Co$ is much worse than the Catholic Church.

Hard to say. The Co$ is not spreading lies about how condoms are totaly ineffective for anything in africa, so I would think that the actions of the catholic chruch are causing a higher international death toll than the Co$.

But in developed nations the Co$ is a bigger harm to their citizens.

Meadmaker · 10th September 2007, 09:04 AM

I would not put the Catholics in the same category as the Church of Scientology. I would cheer prosecution of the Church of Scientology, and I would complain about similar prosecution of the Catholic Church as a violation of human rights.

ImaginalDisc · 10th September 2007, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I would not put the Catholics in the same category as the Church of Scientology. I would cheer prosecution of the Church of Scientology, and I would complain about similar prosecution of the Catholic Church as a violation of human rights.

Yes, how dare people criticise an institution which lies about condoms to people in jeopardy of contracting AIDs, causing untold death and suffering.

Gurdur · 10th September 2007, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

....The Co$ is not spreading lies about how condoms are totaly ineffective for anything in africa, so I would think that the actions of the catholic chruch are causing a higher international death toll than the Co$.

I am absolutely sure that if the Co$ could work out some way of massively ripping off Third World citizens and stealing their cash, the Co$ would. Just a pity for the Co$ that Third World citizens have so little cash.

ponderingturtle · 10th September 2007, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Gurdur

I am absolutely sure that if the Co$ could work out some way of massively ripping off Third World citizens and stealing their cash, the Co$ would. Just a pity for the Co$ that Third World citizens have so little cash.

Oh I agree with that, but the catholic church is spending money to lie to people on a large scale with very dangerous lies.

Taking someones money is not the same as lieing to them and when they act on those lies causeing them to get HIV. I hold the later as a larger crime.

fuelair · 10th September 2007, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by AgeGap

This a a quote put up in the "latest commentary issues " part of the Forum. It was in response to a Belgian prosecutor recommending that the Co$ should stand trial for fraud and extortion.

Stand up all the athiests who would give a "desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church".

I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>.

How do others stand?

I do not care which Church - but my rule is tolerate if it has been around for 500 years. Do not care regardless.

tsg · 10th September 2007, 10:13 AM

Asking if I prefer Catholicism or CO$ is like asking if I prefer Poodle crap or Doberman crap.

krazyKemist · 10th September 2007, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

That's like asking me if I'd rather be shot at point blank range with a rifle, or a shotgun.

Rifle. Somewhat less messy.

the Kemist

Mobyseven · 10th September 2007, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I would not put the Catholics in the same category as the Church of Scientology. I would cheer prosecution of the Church of Scientology, and I would complain about similar prosecution of the Catholic Church as a violation of human rights.

Why do you say that?

TuftedPuffin · 10th September 2007, 04:39 PM

The modern Catholic Church is better than the modern Co$, as the modern Co$ is much more authoritarian, violent, paranoid, moneymaking, etc. However, I support either being prosecuted on the merits of its actions. As this is easier to do with scientology, I tend to support their persecution more, as it's almost always justified.

Civilized Worm · 10th September 2007, 04:49 PM

This is unfair, the catholics had a head start!

Madalch · 10th September 2007, 05:27 PM

Two words- free wine.

linusrichard · 10th September 2007, 05:38 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the German Constitution has some provision for freedom of religion. For all its many serious flaws, Catholicism is a religion, and Germany recognizes this. Scientology may or may not be a religion, but the German government has decided that it is not. I don't think it really matters if this decision is right or wrong; what matters is that it is reasonable, and I think it is.

So, while I think it's hyperbole to suggest that I would "give a desperate cry for human rights" if the German government treated Catholics like they're treating Scientologists, I would recognize that there is something wrong with it, based on the constitution of that country.

Meadmaker · 10th September 2007, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mobyseven

Why do you say that?

fuelair probably said it as well as anyone, with the "500 year rule".

I don't think the Catholic Church is engaged in anything other than well meaning superstition, and most of it is just traditional at that. Perhaps I'm being unfair to the Church of Scientology, but I'm fairly certain the founder created it as a deliberately fraudulent scheme, and that continues to this day.

After I left the Catholic Church, I don't recall any harassment, intimidation, threats, or calls for the faithful to avoid contact with me. (A tiny little bit of that last one, but never by name.) I've heard all of those things associated with the Church of Scientology.

Or, as I sometimes put it, just for emphasis, when someone badmouths the RCC, "That's my mother you're talking about!"

Gurdur · 10th September 2007, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by linusrichard

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the German Constitution has some provision for freedom of religion. For all its many serious flaws, Catholicism is a religion, and Germany recognizes this. Scientology may or may not be a religion, but the German government has decided that it is not. I don't think it really matters if this decision is right or wrong; what matters is that it is reasonable, and I think it is.

All very correct and very well-said.

articulett · 10th September 2007, 06:27 PM

I was raised Catholic, and I thank it for my eventual atheism. I am against the notion that faith and feelings are good ways to know stuff-- that belief is a "value" and that religion make people better or more moral. All belief systems are "Scientology" to me. They are all mock worthy. They all manipulate the trusting. Catholics have been spawning for eons and so have caused many generations of manipulation and human suffering at the hand of their lies disguised as "higher truths". Scientology hasn't had time to do the damage yet. But I find all dismantling of faith a positive thing for those who have had such memes inflicted upon them and who are afraid to "lose faith"

I think all faiths proffer lies disguised as higher truth, and all believers are victims-- many who go on to victimize others in the supposed name of this supposed "higher truth" they've been told they been "gifted" to receive.

c4ts · 10th September 2007, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Gurdur

I am absolutely sure that if the Co$ could work out some way of massively ripping off Third World citizens and stealing their cash, the Co$ would. Just a pity for the Co$ that Third World citizens have so little cash.

There does seem to be a flaw in operation. Scientology goes for the middle class and wealthy victims, bleeds them dry, and discards them when they can't afford to stay in the group. Most Third World citizens would be kept out from the start. Sure, CoS could jump into some dreadfully poor region and take away all their meds in the name of Xenu, but the operation could not be sustained long enough to do a lot of damage.

TuftedPuffin · 10th September 2007, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by c4ts

There does seem to be a flaw in operation. Scientology goes for the middle class and wealthy victims, bleeds them dry, and discards them when they can't afford to stay in the group. Most Third World citizens would be kept out from the start. Sure, CoS could jump into some dreadfully poor region and take away all their meds in the name of Xenu, but the operation could not be sustained long enough to do a lot of damage.

Have you seen the Scientology in Harlem thread?

ponderingturtle · 11th September 2007, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

fuelair probably said it as well as anyone, with the "500 year rule".

I don't think the Catholic Church is engaged in anything other than well meaning superstition, and most of it is just traditional at that. Perhaps I'm being unfair to the Church of Scientology, but I'm fairly certain the founder created it as a deliberately fraudulent scheme, and that continues to this day.

So it doesn't matter if your lies kill if you mean well?

JetLeg · 11th September 2007, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by articulett

I was raised Catholic, and I thank it for my eventual atheism. I am against the notion that faith and feelings are good ways to know stuff-- that belief is a "value" and that religion make people better or more moral. All belief systems are "Scientology" to me. They are all mock worthy. They all manipulate the trusting. Catholics have been spawning for eons and so have caused many generations of manipulation and human suffering at the hand of their lies disguised as "higher truths". Scientology hasn't had time to do the damage yet. But I find all dismantling of faith a positive thing for those who have had such memes inflicted upon them and who are afraid to "lose faith"

I think all faiths proffer lies disguised as higher truth, and all believers are victims-- many who go on to victimize others in the supposed name of this supposed "higher truth" they've been told they been "gifted" to receive.

So, do you think that foundations like JREF, CSICOP, CSI should recieve governmental support?

And how do you respond to the fact that whenever the government tried to deal with religion, the result was oppression?

geni · 11th September 2007, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by c4ts

Catholicism is one of the greatest intellectual frauds of all time. In a court of law, I'm afraid that there are no laws which exist to encompass the extent of their fraud and extortion. If the Pope told them all the moon was made of green cheese, they'd eat moon rocks with their crackers.

Nope. The composition of moon rock is not a matter of faith or morality thus there cannot be an infallible statement made on the matter.

geni · 11th September 2007, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

So it doesn't matter if your lies kill if you mean well?

Well first you would have to prove they are lies. Lies means that the person knows the statment is false.

Secondly you have have to show that any significant number of people have ever paid much attention to the churches statements in that area.

ImaginalDisc · 11th September 2007, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker;

I don't think the Catholic Church is engaged in anything other than well meaning superstition, and most of it is just traditional at that.

Lying to people about condoms and birth control is not a superstition.

ponderingturtle · 11th September 2007, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Well first you would have to prove they are lies. Lies means that the person knows the statment is false.

So claiming that condoms are so porous that they do nothing to stop impregnation let alone the HIV virus is something that you think that they actual believe?

Quote:

Secondly you have have to show that any significant number of people have ever paid much attention to the churches statements in that area.

So lying to people about their public heal issues is fine because no on in Africa listens to the catholic church? Given how many people listen to naturopaths in this country and stop their cancer treatments for what ever crap they are peddling, I see no reason why the church with its infallibility and all would not be listened to very strongly.

So then the Co$ and the Phelps's really are good because they believe what they are preaching as well? Prove that the Co$ does not believe in what they preach.

ponderingturtle · 11th September 2007, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Lying to people about condoms and birth control is not a superstition.

Of course it is, they want the sinners to get their divinely ordained punishment for their activities.

As for wives getting infected by husbands, it is of course her fault because she was not up to her wifely duties.

tsg · 11th September 2007, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Nope. The composition of moon rock is not a matter of faith or morality thus there cannot be an infallible statement made on the matter.

Neither is evolution but there seems to be a bit of controversy about that.

c4ts · 11th September 2007, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Nope. The composition of moon rock is not a matter of faith or morality thus there cannot be an infallible statement made on the matter.

And just the other day he was telling them all that love is not an emotion.

geni · 11th September 2007, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by tsg

Neither is evolution but there seems to be a bit of controversy about that.

Controversy != infallible statement. Actualy that appears to have gone away again so I suspect the church will leave it at JPII's statement for.

10th September 2007, 07:50 AM	#1
AgeGap Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St.Helens, UK Posts: 2,386	Do athiests prefer The Catholic Church to Co$ Originally Posted by JetLeg It is interesting that most atheists are glad that it happens to the church of scientology, but would give a desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church. This a a quote put up in the "latest commentary issues " part of the Forum. It was in response to a Belgian prosecutor recommending that the Co$ should stand trial for fraud and extortion. Stand up all the athiests who would give a "desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church". I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>. How do others stand?

10th September 2007, 08:01 AM	#2
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,415	I know (have known) enough "well-meaning" Catholic priests to not directly label it a scam the same as Co$. You have to be pretty disingenuous to label all religion, at all times, as severely fraudulent. What are the "good works" that Scientology does?
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,415	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

10th September 2007, 08:02 AM	#3
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	That's like asking me if I'd rather be shot at point blank range with a rifle, or a shotgun.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

10th September 2007, 08:04 AM	#4
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by AgeGap This a a quote put up in the "latest commentary issues " part of the Forum. It was in response to a Belgian prosecutor recommending that the Co$ should stand trial for fraud and extortion. Stand up all the athiests who would give a "desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church". I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>. How do others stand? I would stand up. It would make my cheering look more authentic.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

10th September 2007, 08:04 AM	#5
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Catholicism is one of the greatest intellectual frauds of all time. In a court of law, I'm afraid that there are no laws which exist to encompass the extent of their fraud and extortion. If the Pope told them all the moon was made of green cheese, they'd eat moon rocks with their crackers. The only good thing about the Catholic church is that their rule was never as absolute as they would like to believe, and so freedom of thought developed in spite of them.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

10th September 2007, 08:08 AM	#6
Nucular Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream Posts: 3,050	Depends who would be indicted in such a move. I'm sure there are Catholic priests who genuinely believe what they preach, just as there are Scientologists who genuinely believe what they preach. But the higher up the food chain you go in either church, the less sad I'd be to see it happen.
	__________________ From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis)

10th September 2007, 08:10 AM	#7
scratchy Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: In the happy state of denial Posts: 607	I would be happy to see any part of the catholic church stand trial for fraud and exorsion, if and when cc commits any such act. And as big as that church is i would be surprised if anything like that never happened somewhere. With any such case its not the church itself that stands trial, but the persons involved.

10th September 2007, 08:11 AM	#8
Nucular Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream Posts: 3,050	Originally Posted by AgeGap I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>. By the way AgeGap, I believe it's a flying <Rule 10> you're not giving here, these days
	__________________ From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis)

10th September 2007, 08:21 AM	#9
AgeGap Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St.Helens, UK Posts: 2,386	Originally Posted by Nucular By the way AgeGap, I believe it's a flying <Rule 10> you're not giving here, these days Mea culpa, do i need sackcloth and ashes or auditing. Hmmm, i think i will start a poll.

10th September 2007, 08:25 AM	#10
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by AgeGap Mea culpa, do i need sackcloth and ashes or auditing. Hmmm, i think i will start a poll. We prefer flowing chocolate fondue fountains by way of contrition. By "we" I mean "I." By "prefer" I mean "will find any excuse to ask for."
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

10th September 2007, 08:32 AM	#11
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	I would say that today the Co$ is much worse than the Catholic Church.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

10th September 2007, 08:37 AM	#12
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,417	I would like to see the catholic church having to answer for its crimes. Not likely happen as most of the worst things that they do are not against laws, or they can use their status as a nation to get immunity from their crimes. There is no church that I would have serious issues with them being charged with crimes, provided the the crime is not something like "being a member of X church" or something like that. Basicly I think churches should be treated like any other private social organization
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

10th September 2007, 08:40 AM	#13
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,417	Originally Posted by Gurdur I would say that today the Co$ is much worse than the Catholic Church. Hard to say. The Co$ is not spreading lies about how condoms are totaly ineffective for anything in africa, so I would think that the actions of the catholic chruch are causing a higher international death toll than the Co$. But in developed nations the Co$ is a bigger harm to their citizens.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

10th September 2007, 09:04 AM	#14
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,434	I would not put the Catholics in the same category as the Church of Scientology. I would cheer prosecution of the Church of Scientology, and I would complain about similar prosecution of the Catholic Church as a violation of human rights.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

10th September 2007, 09:11 AM	#15
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I would not put the Catholics in the same category as the Church of Scientology. I would cheer prosecution of the Church of Scientology, and I would complain about similar prosecution of the Catholic Church as a violation of human rights. Yes, how dare people criticise an institution which lies about condoms to people in jeopardy of contracting AIDs, causing untold death and suffering.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

10th September 2007, 09:26 AM	#16
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle ....The Co$ is not spreading lies about how condoms are totaly ineffective for anything in africa, so I would think that the actions of the catholic chruch are causing a higher international death toll than the Co$. I am absolutely sure that if the Co$ could work out some way of massively ripping off Third World citizens and stealing their cash, the Co$ would. Just a pity for the Co$ that Third World citizens have so little cash.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

10th September 2007, 09:28 AM	#17
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,417	Originally Posted by Gurdur I am absolutely sure that if the Co$ could work out some way of massively ripping off Third World citizens and stealing their cash, the Co$ would. Just a pity for the Co$ that Third World citizens have so little cash. Oh I agree with that, but the catholic church is spending money to lie to people on a large scale with very dangerous lies. Taking someones money is not the same as lieing to them and when they act on those lies causeing them to get HIV. I hold the later as a larger crime.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

10th September 2007, 09:43 AM	#18
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	Originally Posted by AgeGap This a a quote put up in the "latest commentary issues " part of the Forum. It was in response to a Belgian prosecutor recommending that the Co$ should stand trial for fraud and extortion. Stand up all the athiests who would give a "desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church". I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>. How do others stand? I do not care which Church - but my rule is tolerate if it has been around for 500 years. Do not care regardless.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881

10th September 2007, 10:13 AM	#19
tsg Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Location: Location: Posts: 6,771	Asking if I prefer Catholicism or CO$ is like asking if I prefer Poodle crap or Doberman crap.
	__________________ Being offended by someone questioning your beliefs is a sign that you should be questioning them. In the beginning there was nothing. And the Lord said "Let There Be Light!" And still there was nothing, but at least now you could see it.

10th September 2007, 10:36 AM	#20
krazyKemist Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Deep inside an extinct volcano Posts: 432	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc That's like asking me if I'd rather be shot at point blank range with a rifle, or a shotgun. Rifle. Somewhat less messy. the Kemist
	__________________ But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake. And the Science gets done. -- GLaDOS

10th September 2007, 03:16 PM	#21
Mobyseven President of Covert-Ops Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Not the Rat. Posts: 5,672	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I would not put the Catholics in the same category as the Church of Scientology. I would cheer prosecution of the Church of Scientology, and I would complain about similar prosecution of the Catholic Church as a violation of human rights. Why do you say that?
	__________________ "[Mobyseven is] a fantastically friendly, open, curious, happy, charming, sweet and adorable young man! And those are his bad points." - HistoryGal on Mobyseven "Damn, you're good." - Ichneumonwasp on Mobyseven

10th September 2007, 04:39 PM	#22
TuftedPuffin Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 202	The modern Catholic Church is better than the modern Co$, as the modern Co$ is much more authoritarian, violent, paranoid, moneymaking, etc. However, I support either being prosecuted on the merits of its actions. As this is easier to do with scientology, I tend to support their persecution more, as it's almost always justified.
TuftedPuffin Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 202

10th September 2007, 04:49 PM	#23
Civilized Worm The Ayatollah of Rock and Rolla Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 1,718	This is unfair, the catholics had a head start!
	__________________ "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens Thanks to Kilgore Trout and PaulHoff for the animated avatar.

10th September 2007, 05:27 PM	#24
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,694	Two words- free wine.
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

10th September 2007, 05:38 PM	#25
linusrichard Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Lansing, Mich. Posts: 2,663	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the German Constitution has some provision for freedom of religion. For all its many serious flaws, Catholicism is a religion, and Germany recognizes this. Scientology may or may not be a religion, but the German government has decided that it is not. I don't think it really matters if this decision is right or wrong; what matters is that it is reasonable, and I think it is. So, while I think it's hyperbole to suggest that I would "give a desperate cry for human rights" if the German government treated Catholics like they're treating Scientologists, I would recognize that there is something wrong with it, based on the constitution of that country.

10th September 2007, 05:50 PM	#26
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,434	Originally Posted by Mobyseven Why do you say that? fuelair probably said it as well as anyone, with the "500 year rule". I don't think the Catholic Church is engaged in anything other than well meaning superstition, and most of it is just traditional at that. Perhaps I'm being unfair to the Church of Scientology, but I'm fairly certain the founder created it as a deliberately fraudulent scheme, and that continues to this day. After I left the Catholic Church, I don't recall any harassment, intimidation, threats, or calls for the faithful to avoid contact with me. (A tiny little bit of that last one, but never by name.) I've heard all of those things associated with the Church of Scientology. Or, as I sometimes put it, just for emphasis, when someone badmouths the RCC, "That's my mother you're talking about!"
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

10th September 2007, 05:52 PM	#27
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by linusrichard Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the German Constitution has some provision for freedom of religion. For all its many serious flaws, Catholicism is a religion, and Germany recognizes this. Scientology may or may not be a religion, but the German government has decided that it is not. I don't think it really matters if this decision is right or wrong; what matters is that it is reasonable, and I think it is. All very correct and very well-said.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

10th September 2007, 06:27 PM	#28
articulett Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Las Vegas, NV (and the ethers of cyberspace) Posts: 15,786	I was raised Catholic, and I thank it for my eventual atheism. I am against the notion that faith and feelings are good ways to know stuff-- that belief is a "value" and that religion make people better or more moral. All belief systems are "Scientology" to me. They are all mock worthy. They all manipulate the trusting. Catholics have been spawning for eons and so have caused many generations of manipulation and human suffering at the hand of their lies disguised as "higher truths". Scientology hasn't had time to do the damage yet. But I find all dismantling of faith a positive thing for those who have had such memes inflicted upon them and who are afraid to "lose faith" I think all faiths proffer lies disguised as higher truth, and all believers are victims-- many who go on to victimize others in the supposed name of this supposed "higher truth" they've been told they been "gifted" to receive.

10th September 2007, 07:11 PM	#29
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Originally Posted by Gurdur I am absolutely sure that if the Co$ could work out some way of massively ripping off Third World citizens and stealing their cash, the Co$ would. Just a pity for the Co$ that Third World citizens have so little cash. There does seem to be a flaw in operation. Scientology goes for the middle class and wealthy victims, bleeds them dry, and discards them when they can't afford to stay in the group. Most Third World citizens would be kept out from the start. Sure, CoS could jump into some dreadfully poor region and take away all their meds in the name of Xenu, but the operation could not be sustained long enough to do a lot of damage.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

10th September 2007, 09:10 PM	#30
TuftedPuffin Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 202	Originally Posted by c4ts There does seem to be a flaw in operation. Scientology goes for the middle class and wealthy victims, bleeds them dry, and discards them when they can't afford to stay in the group. Most Third World citizens would be kept out from the start. Sure, CoS could jump into some dreadfully poor region and take away all their meds in the name of Xenu, but the operation could not be sustained long enough to do a lot of damage. Have you seen the Scientology in Harlem thread?
TuftedPuffin Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 202

11th September 2007, 04:22 AM	#31
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,417	Originally Posted by Meadmaker fuelair probably said it as well as anyone, with the "500 year rule". I don't think the Catholic Church is engaged in anything other than well meaning superstition, and most of it is just traditional at that. Perhaps I'm being unfair to the Church of Scientology, but I'm fairly certain the founder created it as a deliberately fraudulent scheme, and that continues to this day. So it doesn't matter if your lies kill if you mean well?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

11th September 2007, 05:14 AM	#32
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414	Originally Posted by articulett I was raised Catholic, and I thank it for my eventual atheism. I am against the notion that faith and feelings are good ways to know stuff-- that belief is a "value" and that religion make people better or more moral. All belief systems are "Scientology" to me. They are all mock worthy. They all manipulate the trusting. Catholics have been spawning for eons and so have caused many generations of manipulation and human suffering at the hand of their lies disguised as "higher truths". Scientology hasn't had time to do the damage yet. But I find all dismantling of faith a positive thing for those who have had such memes inflicted upon them and who are afraid to "lose faith" I think all faiths proffer lies disguised as higher truth, and all believers are victims-- many who go on to victimize others in the supposed name of this supposed "higher truth" they've been told they been "gifted" to receive. So, do you think that foundations like JREF, CSICOP, CSI should recieve governmental support? And how do you respond to the fact that whenever the government tried to deal with religion, the result was oppression?
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414

11th September 2007, 05:17 AM	#33
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,554	Originally Posted by c4ts Catholicism is one of the greatest intellectual frauds of all time. In a court of law, I'm afraid that there are no laws which exist to encompass the extent of their fraud and extortion. If the Pope told them all the moon was made of green cheese, they'd eat moon rocks with their crackers. Nope. The composition of moon rock is not a matter of faith or morality thus there cannot be an infallible statement made on the matter.

11th September 2007, 05:23 AM	#34
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,554	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle So it doesn't matter if your lies kill if you mean well? Well first you would have to prove they are lies. Lies means that the person knows the statment is false. Secondly you have have to show that any significant number of people have ever paid much attention to the churches statements in that area.

11th September 2007, 05:26 AM	#35
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Meadmaker; I don't think the Catholic Church is engaged in anything other than well meaning superstition, and most of it is just traditional at that. Lying to people about condoms and birth control is not a superstition.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*