What existed before the Beginning

[truethat]

Tohu vavohu is a word that means CHAOS. It does not mean "NOTHING"

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


But the Hebrew translation uses

Quote:

Beresh** - Genesis 1 - Beresh**h
Advanced Information

Verse English Translation Jewish Transliterated text Jewish Beresh** Hebrew text Jewish Beresh** Hebrew text

1:1 In the beginning God created heaven and earth
Beresh** bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'arets.

1:2 The earth was without form and empty, with darkness
on the face of the depths, but God's spirit moved on the water's surface.
Veha'arets hayetah tohu vavohu vechoshech al-peney
tehom veruach Elohim merachefet al-peney hamayim.


1:3 God said, 'There shall be light,' and light came into existence. Vayomer Elohim yehi-or vayehi-or.

1:4 God saw that the light was good, and God divided between the light and the darkness.
Vayar Elohim et-ha'or ki-tov vayavdel Elohim beyn ha'or uveyn hachoshech.

1:5 God named the light 'Day,' and the darkness He named 'Night.' It was evening and it was morning, one day.
Vayikra Elohim la-or yom velachoshech kara laylahvayehi-erev vayehi-voker yom echad.

1:6 God said, 'There shall be a sky in the middle of the water, and it shall divide between water and water.'
Vayomer Elohim yehi rakia betoch hamayim vyhi
mavdil beyn mayim lamayim.

In discussing this is occurred to me that if what existed before the earth was formed was CHAOS then all of the evolution theories and the big bang theories actually support the biblical story. If God simply took the Chaos and made it into ORDER then that's entirely different than thinking he made everything from scratch.

Just curious what both believers and skeptics would make of this. The Christian Bible has changed the original

[l0rca]

It can definitely be twisted to fit the biblical story, by using logical fallacies like association by metaphor, semantic bait-and-switches, and a healthy dose of vaguely dismissing all the facts that do not fit.

[Fnord]

Q: What existed before the Beginning?

A1: Who cares?
A2: Why should it matter?
A3: Planet X.
A4: All of the above.
A5: None of the above.

[Jimbo07]

Originally Posted by truethat

If God simply took the Chaos and made it into ORDER then that's entirely different than thinking he made everything from scratch.

Of course, we don't physically know what God may-or-may-not have done. If there is something beyond the Big Bang (in what sense, I don't know), it could perhaps be artistically labelled Chaos, because it wouldn't make sense it terms of everyday experience. Of course, this would be separate from the mathematical notion of chaos, but meh...

ETA: Fnord... your post seems almost... anti-scientific. Of course physicists care. There's no definitive consensus on what the 'Beginning' even means at this point! Some think that time has no defintion outside the Big Bang, but if there's anything to a cyclical universe, or brane theory, say...

[Gord_in_Toronto]

"What existed before the Beginning?"

Nobody knows. Deal with it as you will.

[Ichneumonwasp]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

"What existed before the Beginning?"

Nobody knows. Deal with it as you will.

Sure we do. The phrase "existed before the beginning" is meaningless.

[Fnord]

This thread could just as well been entitled "How Many Angels Can Dance on the Head of a Pin?", since it is pure speculation about a condition or subject that can not be proven in the first place.

It's like Pres. Bush's brain -- no one has ever seen it, so it must not exist.

(Sorry! Couldn't resist that last one!)

[truethat]

interesting replies so far. I hope they keep coming.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by Fnord

This thread could just as well been entitled "How Many Angels Can Dance on the Head of a Pin?", since it is pure speculation about a condition or subject that can not be proven in the first place.

It's like Pres. Bush's brain -- no one has ever seen it, so it must not exist.

(Sorry! Couldn't resist that last one!)

What I find interesting is that you keep replying "who cares its just speculation!" Why does it bother you that other people might wish to discuss it?

[triadboy]

Originally Posted by truethat

In discussing this is occurred to me that if what existed before the earth was formed was CHAOS then all of the evolution theories and the big bang theories actually support the biblical story. If God simply took the Chaos and made it into ORDER then that's entirely different than thinking he made everything from scratch.

The Jewish creation story was taken from the Babylonian creation story which was taken from the Sumarians.

There is no need for God. The universe is never-ending.

What happened before the Beginning? The Big Crunch. Before that? The Big Bang. Before that? The Big Crunch. Before that? The Big Bang ...and on and on until you hemorrhage.

[Jimbo07]

Originally Posted by triadboy

What happened before the Beginning? The Big Crunch. Before that? The Big Bang. Before that? The Big Crunch. Before that? The Big Bang ...and on and on until you hemorrhage.

Well, now we know which cosmology you support without conclusive evidence...

[truethat]

Well if all the creation stories were shared and passed down, it interests me that there might be in the human make up (Dawkins' memes) a yearning to either it having a residual memory of truth, or a transcendent symbolic meaning.

Curious though, why Christians changed the word to empty or nothing.

The idea that the Universe existed in Chaos and then order was established creates for me a very different kind of God theory.

[triadboy]

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

Well, now we know which cosmology you support without conclusive evidence...

It's coming....give it time.

[Cello Man]

Asking what happened before the beginning is like asking what's north of the North Pole. Not to mention, if God made everything then who made God?

Infinite regression is the name of this game.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Ichneumonwasp

Sure we do. The phrase "existed before the beginning" is meaningless.

Well. That's one way of "dealing with it".

[truethat]

What's north of the North Pole is a wonderful example. Because as you continue to go North the paradigm shifts. Excellent.

[Ichneumonwasp]

Originally Posted by truethat

Well if all the creation stories were shared and passed down, it interests me that there might be in the human make up (Dawkins' memes) a yearning to either it having a residual memory of truth, or a transcendent symbolic meaning.

Curious though, why Christians changed the word to empty or nothing.

The idea that the Universe existed in Chaos and then order was established creates for me a very different kind of God theory.

This is a translation. I'm not sure that it makes sense to say that Christians changed the word to "nothing", as though there is some conspiracy. Even in the context of the sentence there is clearly not "nothing" as reference is made to "the deep" which is similar to the Babylonian/Sumerian Tiamat. The "chaos" is basically the same idea as Tiamat (brackish waters as opposed to sweet waters) but without the divinity.

What I have seen some Christians do is take the first sentence "In the beginning God Created the heavens and the earth" out of context -- it's really a sort of preamble in the context of the story -- and use this as the statement about ex nihilo creation. The rest is supposed to be about how God created the heavens and the earth, so I at least think it is clear that the "in the beginning" is a preamble.

You are correct, though. The story as a whole is about creating order from chaos.

ETA
The "Chaos" in Hesiod's Theogony, for instance, is essentially "nothing" -- like a rent in the universal fabric (yes, even with the logical problem of how does one have a rent or tear unless there is something to be torn).

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by truethat

Tohu vavohu is a word that means CHAOS. It does not mean "NOTHING"

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


But the Hebrew translation uses








In discussing this is occurred to me that if what existed before the earth was formed was CHAOS then all of the evolution theories and the big bang theories actually support the biblical story. If God simply took the Chaos and made it into ORDER then that's entirely different than thinking he made everything from scratch.

Just curious what both believers and skeptics would make of this. The Christian Bible has changed the original

But, even if it existed and did this, you have the minor quibble that is is clearly turning back to chaos (heat-death of the universe is coming soon to a universe near you)

[Marquis de Carabas]

In.

[Ichneumonwasp]

OK, you win.

[Fnord]

Originally Posted by truethat

What I find interesting is that you keep replying "who cares its just speculation!" Why does it bother you that other people might wish to discuss it?

Bother? No ... Amuse? Certainly!

Speculating on the unprovable conditions of equally unprovable beings, places, and events is part and parcel of Fantasy, Religion, and Science Fiction. Entertaining or intriguing to be sure, but otherwise, what's the point?

[Mangafranga]

Before the Beginning there was logic. Then threads like this came along and went on for a really long time for they defied all logic by going on for ages but evincing no change.

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by truethat

What's north of the North Pole is a wonderful example. Because as you continue to go North the paradigm shifts. Excellent.

How, exactly, do you "continue to go North" once you are at the North Pole?

I don't think you understand what you are saying.

[Fnord]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

[i]How[/I, exactly, do you "continue to go North" once you are at the North Pole?

I don't think you understand what you are saying.

Welcome to the realm of speculation and woo.

[Tristan Chi]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

How, exactly, do you "continue to go North" once you are at the North Pole?

I don't think you understand what you are saying.

How do you think Amundsen beat Scott to the South Pole? He was already almost at the North Pole, remember...

[Ashles]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

How, exactly, do you "continue to go North" once you are at the North Pole?

I don't think you understand what you are saying.

Yes I was wondering that.
Maybe he thinks that if you write "the paradigm shifts" then you can precede this with any old nonsense and sound clever.
I wonder if he will discover that this is not the case.

[RenaissanceBiker]

Originally Posted by Cello Man

Asking what happened before the beginning is like asking what's north of the North Pole.

That is my usual reply when I am asked "What happened before the Big Bang?" When someone asks me about the purpose of the universe or some other mystical nonsense. I say, "If there is such a thing I don't know what it is, and neither do you or anyone else. If someone tells you they do, they are either delusional or lying."

[Jimbo07]

Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker

"If there is such a thing I don't know what it is, and neither do you or anyone else. If someone tells you they do, they are either delusional or lying."

... or are theoretical physicists/mathematicians and the math would hurt your noodle caboodle...

[triadboy]

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

Well, now we know which cosmology you support without conclusive evidence...

I think an ever-expanding, ever-contracting universe is the most elegant answer.

[Mobyseven]

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!

I nearly just spit my breakfast all over the screen - am I the only one who noticed that the Hebrew title of Genesis ('Bereshit') gets caught by the autocensor?

That's bizarre...

[Jimbo07]

How about the style of Karate, Shito-Ryu?

ETA: Hey it worked! I've been caught on that before... I must admit that I'm pleasantly surprised.

[TuftedPuffin]

Look, this passage is useful, because it points out the fact that Christians don't have an answer for "how does something come out of nothing" either.

It's just that they have a much, much faster, much, much more unrealistic process of evolution.

[Civilized Worm]

If there was something before it then it wasn't that beginning. (Or at least not the very beginning)

[Fnord]

Biblical: "In the Beginning" definately implies that there is nothing that came before. At least, nothing of any significance. So why delve into it?

Scientific: The time before the "Big Bang" and shortly thereafter are not definable, or not easily so, either. Again, why delve into a realm of inquiry when the only thing that can come out of it are more questions?

Maybe it's all about funding...

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by triadboy

The universe is never-ending.

What happened before the Beginning? The Big Crunch. Before that? The Big Bang. Before that? The Big Crunch. Before that? The Big Bang ...and on and on until you hemorrhage.

Perhaps, but with all those crunches, you may have the six pack abs on the cosmic level.

This is a good thing.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

How, exactly, do you "continue to go North" once you are at the North Pole?

I don't think you understand what you are saying.

I beg to disagree.

If you put your rocketship on the North Pole, and launch it toward the North Star (Pole Star) you could keep going north for some years, providing you had sufficient thrust to escape earth's gravity. You would continue north until either your navigation system dropped synch and you lost the ability to maintain interstellar course toward the North Star (Polaris), you ran out of fuel, had a mid space collision, or reached the North Star and plunged into its center in a gravity induced acceleration of glorious self immolation.

The lack of imagination 'round this sub forum is reason enough to avoid it.

DR

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

I beg to disagree.

If you put your rocketship on the North Pole, and launch it toward the North Star (Pole Star) you could keep going north for some years, providing you had sufficient thrust to escape earth's gravity. You would continue north until either your navigation system dropped synch and you lost the ability to maintain interstellar course toward the North Star (Polaris), you ran out of fuel, had a mid space collision, or reached the North Star and plunged into its center in a gravity induced acceleration of glorious self immolation.

The lack of imagination 'round this sub forum is reason enough to avoid it.

DR

Sure. That's fine for you three dimensional thinkers but what about the rest of us?

[Fnord]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Sure. That's fine for you three dimensional thinkers but what about the rest of us?

The line for Flat-Earthers forms to the left.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally Posted by truethat

In discussing this is occurred to me that if what existed before the earth was formed was CHAOS then all of the evolution theories and the big bang theories actually support the biblical story. If God simply took the Chaos and made it into ORDER then that's entirely different than thinking he made everything from scratch.

Oh poppycock. In the beginning God. He is the only one who existed before anyone or anything. Remember man is the most valuable of all Gods creation becasue we were made in his image.

Sorry but there is just no way God would have used apes to design men, he made us from scratch. The theory of evolution is chaos, and I really wish that theory of was never invented let alone taught in our schools. I don't look or act like a monkey, do you?

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

Oh poppycock. In the beginning God. He is the only one who existed before anyone or anything.

Man, he must've been bored.