Grammar adds nothing

[becomingagodo]

Grammar, what is the point of grammar?

If you can understand something, or better yet grasp the concepts of something, would their be any need for grammar?

I don't want to correct my grammar. It adds nothing and what it does add is trivial, you can't judge the merit of someone on grammar and yet I keep on hearing Becoming correct your grammar. You're wrong, I will never correct my grammar, down with grammar Nazi's!

Grammar Nazi's, the worst people ever, even worse then trolls.
You have been warned, don't be a grammar Nazi.
http://www.danheller.com/Movies/Hell...-robot-big.jpg

[Hawk one]

I would imagine that if people agreed on certain rules of writing, then understanding each other - which you seem to admit is important - would be so much easier.

Hey, that's just how it is in real life! Who would have thought?

[Normal Dude]

What is this, the becomingagodo melt-down weekend?

[jsfisher]

Originally Posted by Normal Dude

What is this, the becomingagodo melt-down weekend?

At least he was kind enough to Godwin his own thread right at the get-go.

[Z]

People who consistantly use incorrect grammar, punctuation, and spelling only demonstrate either their lack of education, or their lack of responsibility.

Those who resent being corrected for their language flaws, whatever those are, are demonstrating their childish nature.

That being said, not everyone should be expected at all times to use proper English; but everyone should be expected to do their best, and to accept correction in the spirit in which it is given.

[Mr. Skinny]

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

Grammar, what is the point of grammar?

If you can understand something, or better yet grasp the concepts of something, would their be any need for grammar?

I don't want to correct my grammar. It adds nothing and what it does add is trivial, you can't judge the merit of someone on grammar and yet I keep on hearing Becoming correct your grammar. You're wrong, I will never correct my grammar, down with grammar Nazi's!

Grammar Nazi's, the worst people ever, even worse then trolls.
You have been warned, don't be a grammar Nazi.
http://www.danheller.com/Movies/Hell...-robot-big.jpg

butt therzz gud rezons four grammer end speleng sew wee kan uendarstend eech otder.

[Hawk one]

Originally Posted by Z

That being said, not everyone should be expected at all times to use proper English;

All Norwegians should. If I see a Norwegian who isn't at least trying to write English as defined by the more common UK (and sometimes US) rules, I will personally banish them to Sweden, a fate worse than death by monkeys.

Run-on sentences is another matter entirely, though.

[becomingagodo]

Quote:

butt therzz gud rezons four grammer end speleng sew wee kan uendarstend eech otder.

I understood that perfectly, maybe less able people need grammar.

[Hawk one]

I understood that as well, but I did have to slow down my reading to get it. Of course, if everyone agreed on a common spelling of words, then we could speed up our reading and communicate far more efficiently.

I suppose only less able people aren't capable of grasping the logic of this concept.

[becomingagodo]

Quote:

I understood that as well, but I did have to slow down my reading to get it.

I didn't have to slow down to read the sentence.

Quote:

I suppose only less able people aren't capable of grasping the logic of this concept.

Well, I suppose people need logic as a crutch. When something is obvious like this;

Quote:

butt therzz gud rezons four grammer end speleng sew wee kan uendarstend eech otder.

Why would you need grammar? Why would you slow down to read this? How isn't this obvious?

[Mr. Skinny]

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

I understood that perfectly, maybe less able people need grammar.

Good for you.

I was simply trying to exemplify the need for proper grammar and spelling. I could have posted a response based on the German Enigma code used during WWII, but that wouldn't have made much sense to you, would it? If you don't have the decoding machine, it's just gibberish.

That's why we have grammar and spelling rules that people should try to adhere to. It increases the level of understanding between two parties when both are using the same "code".

[ConspiRaider]

Originally Posted by Mr. Skinny

Good for you.

I was simply trying to exemplify the need for proper grammar and spelling. I could have posted a response based on the German Enigma code used during WWII, but that wouldn't have made much sense to you, would it? If you don't have the decoding machine, it's just gibberish.

That's why we have grammar and spelling rules that people should try to adhere to. It increases the level of understanding between two parties when both are using the same "code".

Roger that, Skinny.

But we should never expect much in the area of grammar repair, when:

We got some people driving on the left side of the road and some on the right.

We got some folks using the metric system and some not.

And worst of all, by far (unconscionable): We got the American League with the Designated Hitter rule, and the National League without it. That, right there, is a potential world-ender. We'll survive anthropogenic global warming before we survive that outrage.

[Complexity]

becoming-a-god-o :

Nearly every post from you serves only to reinforce your portrayal of yourself as an ignorant buffoon.

A perfect storm of everything unworthy.

Get over yourself and strive to become something good.

[Mr. Skinny]

Originally Posted by ConspiRaider

Roger that, Skinny.

But we should never expect much in the area of grammar repair, when:

We got some people driving on the left side of the road and some on the right.

We got some folks using the metric system and some not.

And worst of all, by far (unconscionable): We got the American League with the Designated Hitter rule, and the National League without it. That, right there, is a potential world-ender. We'll survive anthropogenic global warming before we survive that outrage.

Hey, ConspiRaider.

I think you know my internet persona well enough to know that I'm not a grammar Nazi.

I'm happy with anyone that makes an honest attempt to comply with convention, but I get a bit ticked off when people just excuse their grammar and spelling mistakes with a simple "hand wave".

I don't expect everyone to live up to the high standards of someone like Myriad, who has excellent spelling, grammar, and sentence construction, but I do expect them to at least try.


ETA: Did you see the Browns/Bengals game today, ConspiRaider?

[Chupacabras]

What would be the purpose of traffic signs? If you get to your destination, that's good enough.

What's with observing manners in the table? That's for sissies!

What am I doing out of the humor forum???

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

Grammar, what is the point of grammar?

If you can understand something, or better yet grasp the concepts of something, would their be any need for grammar?

I don't want to correct my grammar. It adds nothing and what it does add is trivial, you can't judge the merit of someone on grammar and yet I keep on hearing Becoming correct your grammar. You're wrong, I will never correct my grammar, down with grammar Nazi's!

Grammar Nazi's, the worst people ever, even worse then trolls.
You have been warned, don't be a grammar Nazi.

I couldn’t agree more. Attention should be focused what meanings that things have. Dependant on grammar and punctuation, are the seeds of understanding held hostage to one who prefers to obfuscate? Why? Try to make communication clear without rules and constrictions of grammar. Can we do this?

Hmm... is that what I meant to say? Maybe we can escape the Grammar Nazis and say...

I couldn’t agree. More attention should be focused what? Meanings that things have, dependant on grammar and punctuation, are the seeds of understanding. Held hostage to one who prefers to obfuscate, why try to make communication clear? Without rules and constrictions of grammar, can we do this?

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Tricky corrected by a red mark

I couldn’t agree. More attention should be focused, what? Meanings that things have, dependant on grammar and punctuation, are the seeds of understanding. Held hostage to one who prefers to obfuscate, why try to make communication clear? Without rules and constrictions of grammar, can we do this?

Your lack of acommadation was noted.

DR

[ConspiRaider]

Originally Posted by Mr. Skinny

Hey, ConspiRaider.

I think you know my internet persona well enough to know that I'm not a grammar Nazi.

I'm happy with anyone that makes an honest attempt to comply with convention, but I get a bit ticked off when people just excuse their grammar and spelling mistakes with a simple "hand wave".

I don't expect everyone to live up to the high standards of someone like Myriad, who has excellent spelling, grammar, and sentence construction, but I do expect them to at least try.

ETA: Did you see the Browns/Bengals game today, ConspiRaider?

All good points. Hey I'm a writer so I know the importance of good grandma.

The BROWNIES kicked the living hell out of the Bengals! Whoa! There goes 0-16! I didn't see it actually - but I followed it on the graphical bit they do at NFL.COM, where you can sorta keep track of all the games.

Did you see it? Were you at the game? It was a Buckeyes-Browns weekend!!!

[Mr. Skinny]

Originally Posted by ConspiRaider

All good points. Hey I'm a writer so I know the importance of good grandma.

The BROWNIES kicked the living hell out of the Bengals! Whoa! There goes 0-16! I didn't see it actually - but I followed it on the graphical bit they do at NFL.COM, where you can sorta keep track of all the games.

Did you see it? Were you at the game? It was a Buckeyes-Browns weekend!!!

Well, when you live in Dayton, you almost always get to see the Browns-Bengals game.

It was fun to watch. Lot's of fun offensive plays for both teams. Good sports entertainment, IMHO.

[Miss Anthrope]

Forget grammar...how about mastering the spellchecker?

[roger]

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Nope, no need for grammer that I can see.

[TjW]

Well, if it wasn't for grammar, either your mama or your papa wouldn't have been born.
So you wouldn't have been born.

So maybe you're right. We don't need grammar.

[Zygar]

I don't think anyone is really after you for grammar or spelling. All we want is for you to improve your communication skills so we can understand what you are trying to say. Also, if you want people to listen to you, it is always in your best interest to do your best to make yourself understandable.

You cannot blame others for misunderstanding you or ignoring you. You can only blame yourself.

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by Tricky

I couldn’t agree more. Attention should be focused on what meanings that things have. Dependant on grammar and punctuation, are the seeds of understanding held hostage to one who prefers to obfuscate? Why? Try to make communication clear without rules and constrictions of grammar. Can we do this?

Hmm... is that what I meant to say? Maybe we can escape the Grammar Nazis and say...

I couldn’t agree. More attention should be on focused what? Meanings that things have, dependant on grammar and punctuation, are the seeds of understanding. Held hostage to one who prefers to obfuscate, why try to make communication clear? Without rules and constrictions of grammar, can we do this?

Yeah, you got me Darth.

[Miss Anthrope]

Originally Posted by Zygar

I don't think anyone is really after you for grammar or spelling. All we want is for you to improve your communication skills so we can understand what you are trying to say. Also, if you want people to listen to you, it is always in your best interest to do your best to make yourself understandable.

You cannot blame others for misunderstanding you or ignoring you. You can only blame yourself.

I certainly don't disagree with this.

It would also help for BOGA to not use use the word "stupid" so often.

[chillzero]

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

Grammar, what is the point of grammar?

If you can understand something, or better yet grasp the concepts of something, would their be any need for grammar?

"If" is the important word here, as beautifully demonstrated by Tricky.

[alfaniner]

Quote:

Grammar adds nothing

Well, apparently he did OK in that old Frasier show...

[Cuddles]

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

If you can understand something, or better yet grasp the concepts of something, would their be any need for grammar?

As others have pointed out, the "if" is a rather large one. If we could understand other people's writing without grammar, obviously there would be no need for it. However, the simple fact is that we can't. Even in examples such as

Quote:

butt therzz gud rezons four grammer end speleng sew wee kan uendarstend eech otder

the grammar and spelling are still there. They are distorted somewhat, but are still recogniseable. If that sentence read

Quote:

sefu jsdfg akjs fn idfgsoi fidfnk nfasjn

would you still understand it? Obviously not. You can understand things when the convention is broken slightly because they are close enough to still be recognisable. If you simply thrown the convention out the window, no-one will ever have a clue what anyone else is trying to say. And of course, as Tricky has yet again pointed out in his embarassingly clever way, a simple change in grammar can completely change the meaning of statement, even when all the rules of grammar are being followed.

From your posting it is obvious that there is an awful lot that you don't understand, and you ask a lot of questions. However, it is often extremely hard to understand what you are actually asking. This is not necessarily a bad thing in itself, since many people, especially foreigners, can have trouble with language. What is a bad thing is that you seem to think it is the fault of everyone except yourself when this happens. Feel free to continue raging against the oppressive forces of the Dictionary, but don't blame it on anyone other than yourself.

For a perfect example of why grammar matters, read any of the numerous posts by Kumar. It is genuinely almost impossible to work out what he is actually trying to say most of the time. The fact that his ideas are utter nonsense doesn't help, but it is impossible to even have a debate about them because his posts just don't make any sense. You aren't as bad as him, but at times you really do come close.

Edit:
In fact, I made a post in another thread recently that is relevant here:

Quote:

However, I live in a world with lots of other people in it. While I personally am pretty much impossible to offend, many other people are different. No matter what the reasons, historical, cultural or whatever, most people consider certain words and phrases offensive. If I want to interact with them, I have to understand this and play by their rules. If I don't, I will have a much smaller pool of people who will interact with me, and being a fairly social person, that's not what I want.

When it comes down to it, people are offended by some things. Whether you like it or not, that is reality. Arguing against this is no more sensible than arguing against gravity. I would like to be able to fly, but I find my life is much easier if I act as though gravity works, no matter how much I dislike this.

This was about swearing, but the point is the same. If you want to interact with society, you have to play by society's rules. Grammar and spelling are some of those rules. If you don't follow them, people won't interact with you. For swearing, this will be because they don't want to, for grammar, it's because they simply won't be able to. Either way, you will be much more lonely than if you simply learn the rules.

[tkingdoll]

There's no excuse for wilful ignorance. Declaring oneself above grammar is to declare that one doesn't need to learn something new because one already knows enough.

I despise that stance, particularly as in this case, it is wrong.

And the defence 'if you understand my meaning then we're OK' is only acceptable sometimes. For example, my beautician recently said to me that I "need more dehydration in my skin". She actually meant hydration, but because I know enough about skin to know that it is extremely unlikely that anyone, let alone a paid professional, would be recommending dehydration, I mentally corrected the sentence and knew what she meant. So the fact of the matter is, that I understood her meaning is completely beside the point. The next client might not. This is black and white. She was wrong. Otherwise we might as well claim that all words have the same, or any, meaning.

Why would anyone want to deliberately make themselves look ignorant, or not strive to achieve the highest standard they can, if the reward merits the effort?

See, the problem with implying "I don't care, it's not important" is that you are essentially saying "this forum isn't important" or even worse, that your own words are not important.

So OK, fine. If they're not important, why should we read them?

[wollery]

Wo xi wang BAGO yao xue yingwen.

[TragicMonkey]

It reminds me of when people declare that table manners are ridiculous, outdated, and unnecessary. Then they blow their noses on the tablecloth, scratch their butt with their fork, and wonder why nobody ever invites them out.

[slingblade]

It seems to me that the people who most often think grammar and/or spelling aren't important are the ones who can't use these things properly.

I was once a hard-core Grammar Nazi, because I need rules to order my world. Over the years, as I learned to write, I realized that good writing often bent or broke the rules, but to a purpose. In my 20s, I read a book on writing that informed me, "You can break the rules, but only after you know the rules."

Many years after that, in college, I learned the terms descriptivist and prescriptivist. These are not opposites; in fact, they often compliment one another. But a prescriptivist writer tends to adhere to the rules of English more firmly than a descriptivist. I'd say that in my past, I was a hard-core prescriptivist. I followed the rules to. the. letter. After a bit more education, I realized I'd actually been writing descriptively more often than prescriptively, and that it worked for me to do so.

I retired my linguistic swastika.

Today I am more relaxed about language, and proper English usage. I still know the rules, and generally follow them, but I am also aware that one must write to one's audience. For instance, text speak is fine when texting. It is right out when writing a master's thesis (unless the thesis is on text speak, and even then, only as examples).

I am, however, a real stickler when it comes to one thing: if you want to convince me to listen to you, and that you know what you are talking about, use proper English and proper spelling more often than not. You see, I have a very hard time accepting that you pay proper attention to detail, and that you've done your research, if you can't be bothered to spell properly. If your sentences are mangled, your prepositions dangled, and your subjects don't agree with your verbs, I am forced to wonder how much time and care you took with your subject.

Call me biased, call me bigoted; I still have a hard time taking a person seriously who can't take his own writing seriously.

Now, everyone makes the occasional typo. I always re-read my posts, or any other writing, and I do catch mistakes. Then, I correct them. That's the difference, you see: I take the time to take my writing seriously. I feel that to do so lends an authoritative air to one's communications. Just now, I wasn't certain I'd spelled "authoritative" properly, so guess what? I looked it up. I took a whole 30 seconds to be sure. I think that shows I respect my own writing, but more, I respect my readers.

When I read posts regarding subject matter that's questionable, and the author can't spell and/or can't properly order his or her sentences, I tend to feel the author hasn't a clue. But it takes both of those things, in combination. The worst is someone talking purest woo, who does it with all the linguistic flair of the average 10-year-old. As far as I'm concerned, we're done. I can't take you seriously, if you can't even take your own expression of your own ideas seriously.

Like it or not, this is the way the world tends to work. I'm not alone, and certainly not the only person who does this. I may be among the few who are consciously aware they do it, but I feel fairly certain many, if not most, people judge the expression of thoughts and ideas in the same way.

It's not about writing with perfection. It's about writing with respect to the ideas, the reader, and oneself.

In sum: deal with it.

[Mangafranga]

Originally Posted by slingblade

Many years after that, in college, I learned the terms descriptivist and prescriptivist. These are not opposites; in fact, they often compliment one another. But a prescriptivist writer tends to adhere to the rules of English more firmly than a descriptivist. I'd say that in my past, I was a hard-core prescriptivist. I followed the rules to. the. letter. After a bit more education, I realized I'd actually been writing descriptively more often than prescriptively, and that it worked for me to do so.

I tend to think that the descriptivist just thinks that the rules of a language are not set in stone by the style guides. That is to say, there are rules, and they are of many sorts, be they some sort of universal grammar, idiolects, conventions that fit a certain context and so on. My own reaction against prescriptivism (and I accept that I probably have a caricatured view of it) is that deviations from the prescriptive rules (i.e. that of the style guides) can be quite interesting and non-random (i.e. rule governed and meaningful).

[Gnu Ordure]

Becomingagodo,

Nice one, son.

Grammar redundant or possibly obsolete, absolutely.

Lot of stupid rules, arcane constructions, and mostly unnecessary, right ?

Me, personally ? Hatred and avoidance of verbs. My last use of a verb, August 2003.

Problems ? Not really.

Short, jumpy sentences, obviously. In fact, probably not proper sentences at all, technically. No proper sentences without verbs, after all.

And a slightly stilted writing style, sure. (By the way, gerund there, not a verb, pedants).

Also, in social situations, many slaps in the face from girls, amid accusations of weirdness.



Oh well....

The suffering of trail-blazers since the beginning of time, right ?



Anyway, bravo, becominagodo ! Yesterday the good fight, today the good fight, and tomorrow ? More fighting !!

From me to you, encouragement, admiration and respect.

And for me, unworthiness in the light of your stand.

[gnome]

Clear grammar is as useless as a bump on the head. Tell me if you want it.

[TjW]

Originally Posted by slingblade

I was once a hard-core Grammar Nazi, because I need rules to order my world. Over the years, as I learned to write, I realized that good writing often bent or broke the rules, but to a purpose. In my 20s, I read a book on writing that informed me, "You can break the rules, but only after you know the rules."

Heh. This reminds me of one of my pet peeves: the exhortation to "Think outside the box". No one using this cliche seems to realize that to usefully think outside the box, one needs to know where the box is, and the reasons for its being there.

</derail>

[Aoidoi]

Aoidoi eats shoots and leaves.

[slingblade]

Originally Posted by Mangafranga

I tend to think that the descriptivist just thinks that the rules of a language are not set in stone by the style guides. That is to say, there are rules, and they are of many sorts, be they some sort of universal grammar, idiolects, conventions that fit a certain context and so on. My own reaction against prescriptivism (and I accept that I probably have a caricatured view of it) is that deviations from the prescriptive rules (i.e. that of the style guides) can be quite interesting and non-random (i.e. rule governed and meaningful).

I must agree. Well said! (See, that was a sentence fragment, but it's used in a manner that's become acceptable and well understood. I broke a rule, but I broke it effectively. I'm going to remove my pedantry module now. You're welcome.)

Today, I find myself actually annoyed with people who get totally bent about things like fragments. When they start with the "Never, never, ever" crap, I stick my fingers in my ears and make nonsense noises. (<--and that face, too.)

Erm...yesterday...I was that person. I'm sorry.

[slingblade]

Originally Posted by TjW

Heh. This reminds me of one of my pet peeves: the exhortation to "Think outside the box". No one using this cliche seems to realize that to usefully think outside the box, one needs to know where the box is, and the reasons for its being there.

</derail>

Heh, or that even saying "think outside the box" is actually anything but.....

Be a non-conformist like everyone else!!


...wait...

[ConspiRaider]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

It reminds me of when people declare that table manners are ridiculous, outdated, and unnecessary. Then they blow their noses on the tablecloth, scratch their butt with their fork, and wonder why nobody ever invites them out.

Yep. They call me the Lou Gehrig - the Iron Horse - of Guest At Dinner Hell No Then We Ain't Coming. 411,564 straight days of dinner alone. I should get an honorary dinner just for that.

Of course being a writer I have to know all about bad grammar, purposely. My characters may use it. Like in writing a Western film. That was fun. I had to (attempt, anyway) use poor grammar in such a way that it didn't obscure the meaning and also didn't sound phony...