Villagers in Peru claim meteorite has made them ill

GoodGuysEatPie · 18th September 2007, 06:53 AM

A friend sent me this story this morning. I haven't had time yet to fully investigate it. Apparently a meteorite is claimed to cause all sorts of sickness to some villagers in Peru. I very much doubt it's the meteorite itself that's making them sick.

http://www.reuters.com/news/video/vi...?videoId=66641

~goodguyseatpie~

Dancing David · 18th September 2007, 08:25 AM

Considering the stuff we put up in orbit, who knows what will fall down. Evidence has yet to be gathered.

Gord_in_Toronto · 18th September 2007, 08:41 AM

Isn't there already a thread elsewhere on JREF about H P Lovecraft's, The Color Out of Space?

Quote:

It all began, old Ammi said, with the meteorite. Before that time there had been no wild legends at all since the witch trials, and even then these western woods were not feared half so much as the small island in the Miskatonic where the devil held court beside a curious 'lone altar older than the Indians.

ImaginalDisc · 18th September 2007, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Isn't there already a thread elsewhere on JREF about H P Lovecraft's, The Color Out of Space?

Cornsnard it! You stole my thunder!

fuelair · 18th September 2007, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Isn't there already a thread elsewhere on JREF about H P Lovecraft's, The Color Out of Space?

Which IIRC was the first clearly reported Predator visit to Earth.

GoodGuysEatPie · 18th September 2007, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Considering the stuff we put up in orbit, who knows what will fall down. Evidence has yet to be gathered.

Exactly. The text article only mentioned anecdotes from "village officials". It probably is a meteorite (rather than space garbage), but reports of noxious fumes and "boiling water" makes me raise an eyebrow.

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Isn't there already a thread elsewhere on JREF about H P Lovecraft's, The Color Out of Space?

lol...ahem. I think you've solved the mystery. Nothing more to see here.

Macoy · 18th September 2007, 02:12 PM

Here's a picture:

http://www.spaceweather.com/

neutrino_cannon · 18th September 2007, 03:52 PM

If that really is the correct picture, perhaps this is a sewer line or something that's exploded?

GoodGuysEatPie · 18th September 2007, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by neutrino_cannon

If that really is the correct picture, perhaps this is a sewer line or something that's exploded?

After seeing the pictures more now, I'm revised my earlier thought that it was likely a meteorite. Now I don't think there's evidence yet that it was from space at all.

Now I think it is more likely to more of human-made/terrestial origin. Exploded sewer line isn't a bad guess...

~goodguyseatpie~

Achán hiNidráne · 18th September 2007, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Isn't there already a thread elsewhere on JREF about H P Lovecraft's, The Color Out of Space?

That's what I thought when I first heard this story. I guess we'll know what the Colour sucks the lifeforce out of every living thing in Peru, leaving the whole country a pile of gray dust.

Kopji · 18th September 2007, 09:19 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7001897.stm

The locals say they saw a fireball. Humm, the crater doesn't look 30m wide to me. Anyone missing a rocket?

andyandy · 19th September 2007, 12:49 PM

i saw this report on the bbc - there was a meterorite expert of some description saying that she was sceptical that it would be a meterorite, but there was no real explanation as to why....

for us non-meterorite experts, why is it unlikely to be such an event?

Macoy · 19th September 2007, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by andyandy

i saw this report on the bbc - there was a meterorite expert of some description saying that she was sceptical that it would be a meterorite, but there was no real explanation as to why....

for us non-meterorite experts, why is it unlikely to be such an event?

My original link has moved to here:

http://www.spaceweather.com/archive....h=09&year=2007

No update on seismic reports.

CapelDodger · 19th September 2007, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by neutrino_cannon

If that really is the correct picture, perhaps this is a sewer line or something that's exploded?

It doesn't look at all wholesome, does it? Frankly, I wouldn't want to live near it. Just looking at it would make me feel ill.

In a more general sense, meteorite-meets-landfill is perhaps an unknown unknown that needs to be looked into. Not that I'm trying to alarm anybody.

CapelDodger · 19th September 2007, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by andyandy

i saw this report on the bbc - there was a meterorite expert of some description saying that she was sceptical that it would be a meterorite, but there was no real explanation as to why....

for us non-meterorite experts, why is it unlikely to be such an event?

I think the scepticism is mostly to do with the likelihood of alternative explanations. The "How can I get out of this?" local effect. Once there are boots on the ground we'll learn more.

GoodGuysEatPie · 19th September 2007, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by andyandy

i saw this report on the bbc - there was a meterorite expert of some description saying that she was sceptical that it would be a meterorite, but there was no real explanation as to why....

for us non-meterorite experts, why is it unlikely to be such an event?

Up to now, there just hasn't been evidence pointing towards a meteorite, except local anecdotes of the "fireball." A fireball sighting is consistent with an object large enough to make a crater, but...I don't think anybody has ever heard of a meteorite making people sick...

This just in, however:
Meteorite is confirmed as a chondrite. For the non-meteorite experts, here's a nice explanation about chondrites, from NASA.

I'm STILL skeptical, however. Until the material has been tested by someone outside of Peru, it could be a fallen a satellite for we know...

~goodguyseatpie~

CapelDodger · 19th September 2007, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

That's what I thought when I first heard this story. I guess we'll know what the Colour sucks the lifeforce out of every living thing in Peru, leaving the whole country a pile of gray dust.

I'll bite if no-one else will ...

Don't you mean "white powder"?

DRBUZZ0 · 20th September 2007, 12:00 AM

Are they sure it's a meteorite and it didn't come from a passing aircrafts... um.... sanitary system? That could possibly make them sick.

I suppose a meteor could make you sick if it hit you and broke the skin a bit and it got infected...

GoodGuysEatPie · 20th September 2007, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

Are they sure it's a meteorite and it didn't come from a passing aircrafts... um.... sanitary system? That could possibly make them sick.

I suppose a meteor could make you sick if it hit you and broke the skin a bit and it got infected...

See the article linked to two posts up. Meteorite material has been confirmed (though no second analysis yet from the outside). I remain unconvinced that a meteorite itself could cause 200 people to get sick like this. The sickness would probably be caused by whatever the impact kicked into the air from the surface.

~goodguyseatpie~

casebro · 20th September 2007, 09:22 AM

Not to mention mass hysteria/ hypochondria.

Hmmm, note the similarity? hypochondria-chondrite? Sick from a low chondrite?

GoodGuysEatPie · 20th September 2007, 11:00 AM

A major news outlet has finally discussed the crater in an analytical way:

New York Times discussion of the Crater

The New York Times article also gives plenty of credit to science bloggers

Alternate hypotheses are thrown around. Note that in the discussion thread that follows the article, the first post says it's a government cover-up! Sheesh.

Macoy · 20th September 2007, 12:06 PM

Still no seismic reports, then.

Arkan_Wolfshade · 20th September 2007, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

I'll bite if no-one else will ...

Don't you mean "white powder"?

Nope, gray dust:
http://www.yankeeclassic.com/miskato...as/colouro.htm

GoodGuysEatPie · 20th September 2007, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Macoy

Still no seismic reports, then.

I haven't seen a specific seismic report for that location, but here's a more general report from IRIS:

Seismic Monitor: South America

Note in that report the red circle, showing activity from today. That red circle is pretty much exactly where the Puna region of Peru is. The region in general is a seismically active place.

An alternative hypothesis for the mystery crater is that it is a volcanic outcropping. That would explain the crater, the boiling water, and the noxious gases. Volcanic fumes can make people very ill.

It is possible that the fireball sighting was just a coincidence and that this outcropping just happened to be where the villagers went to investigate.

~goodguyseatpie~

Macoy · 20th September 2007, 06:07 PM

There are theories that tectonic events can produce 'plasma fireballs' similar to so-called ball lightning.

Mr. Scott · 20th September 2007, 06:53 PM

From NY Times:

Quote:

Update, 6:48 PM Eastern [9/20] More convincing tests are in: It’s a meteorite, but there’s still no explanation for the boiling water, the odors and the sickness. Also, the hole got smaller in this latest measurement. More details from The A.P.:
Astrophysicist Jose Ishitsuka of Peru’s Geophysics Institute reached the site about 6 miles from Lake Titicaca. He confirmed that a meteorite caused a crater 42 feet wide and 15 feet deep, the institute’s president, Ronald Woodman, told The Associated Press on Thursday.
Ishitsuka recovered a 3-inch magnetic fragment and said it contained iron, a mineral found in all rocks from space. The impact also registered a magnitude-1.5 tremor on the institute’s seismic equipment _ that’s as much as an explosion of 4.9 tons of dynamite, Woodman said.

phildonnia · 21st September 2007, 04:45 PM

My suspicion is a mass sociogenic illness, of which nausea is a common symptom.

A totally unexpert observation is that such cases often involve sensations of strange odors; the Gloria Ramirez incident, and the Mad Gasser for example.

petra10 · 21st September 2007, 05:17 PM

My dad worked in the coal mines.He was always talking about gases and bacterial stuff down the mines that caused the miners to feel sick.Couldn't the meteorite not just have hit something like that.

Skeptic Ginger · 22nd September 2007, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0

Are they sure it's a meteorite and it didn't come from a passing aircrafts... um.... sanitary system? That could possibly make them sick.

I suppose a meteor could make you sick if it hit you and broke the skin a bit and it got infected...

That would have to have been a veerrrrry large er um chunk of ice to have made that size crater.

GoodGuysEatPie · 25th September 2007, 02:48 PM

The New York Times today had a wrap up of the Peru crater & related illnesses. The culprit for the villager's sickness now appears to be quite mundane: the soil there contained arsenic-tainted water, and the meteorite kicked that up into the air.

New York Times - Perus Meteor

It's nice to see that at least one media outlet (besides bloggers) followed up on this little, weird story.

~goodguyseatpie~

Skeptic Ginger · 25th September 2007, 06:23 PM

I don't believe the arsenic claim either, at least until I see evidence not just that it was there, but that it actually caused the symptoms. If there is that much arsenic in the soil, such that stirring some into the air made people who went near the crater ill, then these people would be exposed to an awful lot of arsenic the rest of the time. Why wouldn't the air contamination have drifted further (small particle size) or settled more quickly (large particle size)? Wouldn't these folks have some tolerance built up which the outside scientists and other officials didn't?

This is a picture of psychsomatic illness, not arsenic kicked up by a meteorite. Why are you willing to accept an explanation without evidence even if it is more plausible than the original explanation radiation sickness was occurring?

from the article:

Quote:

The illness was the result of inhaling arsenic fumes, according to Luisa Macedo, a researcher for Peru’s Mining, Metallurgy, and Geology Institute (INGEMMET), who visited the crash site.

The meteorite created the gases when the object’s hot surface met an underground water supply tainted with arsenic, the scientists said.

Numerous arsenic deposits have been found in the subsoils of southern Peru, explained Modesto Montoya, a nuclear physicist who collaborated with the team. The naturally formed deposits contaminate local drinking water.

“If the meteorite arrives incandescent and at a high temperature because of friction in the atmosphere, hitting water can create a column of steam,” added José Ishitsuka, an astronomer at the Peruvian Geophysics Institute, who analyzed the object.

So you have a geologist making a diagnosis of a medical illness and he doesn't even have blood tests or other medical records to suggest the diagnosis at least as far as one can see from this report. In addition, the surface of a meteor which is heated up is so thin it cools too quickly to fit this explanation. I'll have to see how big a meteorite has to be before the impact involves substantial heat. One would think an astronomer would know but my experience with meteorites at the UW here in Seattle is that the planetary geologists were meteorite experts but every single astronomer most certainly wasn't.

Even if it turns out heat was substantial (size of meteorite/size of crater make it possible) the symptoms of arsenic poisoning are acute abdominal pain and other sever GI symptoms. Inhalation can lead to lung cancer but it isn't a usual means of absorbing large doses despite the fact exposure to arsenic air contaminants is common (via cutting treated lumber and around smelters).

GoodGuysEatPie · 26th September 2007, 07:54 AM

Skeptigirl makes several good points, though I would please ask not to shoot the messenger. I was merely pointing to the NYT Lede article and praising the NYT for actually following up on the story, even though they were generally accepting of this as a "solved mystery". I myself am still in "wait for more information" mode. I could have actually made that clear.

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

Why wouldn't the air contamination have drifted further (small particle size) or settled more quickly (large particle size)?

How do we know it did not do either of these? The concentration of vaporized arsenic in the air would probably diminish by the time more investigators came. This is still a very plausible scenario. However, you are right to wonder if the villager's sickness is real...and, if it is, was it actually caused by arsenic (though the article did mention a couple other contaminants as well).

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

from the article:So you have a geologist making a diagnosis of a medical illness and he doesn't even have blood tests or other medical records to suggest the diagnosis at least as far as one can see from this report. In addition, the surface of a meteor which is heated up is so thin it cools too quickly to fit this explanation. I'll have to see how big a meteorite has to be before the impact involves substantial heat. One would think an astronomer would know but my experience with meteorites at the UW here in Seattle is that the planetary geologists were meteorite experts but every single astronomer most certainly wasn't.

As an astronomer, I can say that I have known plenty of other astronomers who specialized in meteorites and were fairly knowledgeable about them. The distinction between astronomer and planetary geologist becomes fuzzier, especially when they work in a geophysics laboratory.

I'm curious, Skeptigirl, are you in the astro department at UW? (that's a great program)

~goodguyseatpie~

Skeptic Ginger · 28th September 2007, 11:02 PM

I wasn't trying to shoot the messenger, just trying to stir the, "it's settled, that explains it", mentality up a bit. And I didn't mean there were no astronomers in the meteorite field, I should have made that more clear. I merely meant to say just being an astronomer didn't necessarily make one a meteorite expert. My experience taking my specimens to the UW for ID just happened to surprise me when I had the astronomy folks send me to the geology department. At that university they have actually merged several fields in an interesting way.

Earth and Space Sciences

Mozybyte · 29th September 2007, 09:15 PM

Maybe this will help...
American spy satellite downed in Peru as US nuclear attack on Iran thwarted

Gord_in_Toronto · 30th September 2007, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Mozybyte

Maybe this will help...
American spy satellite downed in Peru as US nuclear attack on Iran thwarted

Ah. So that's the explanation!

Does nobody own a geiger counter?

Skeptic Ginger · 30th September 2007, 02:24 PM

Sniff sniff....Does anyone smell onions here?

Mozybyte · 1st October 2007, 05:56 AM

If You think that's a vegetable, have a sniff at this one...
COMMAND OVERRIDE
By William Thomas

Collin Merenoff · 15th October 2007, 09:43 PM

Let's see: A huge rock hits the earth and mushrooms a cloud of smoke and pulverized metal into the air people breathe. People get sick.

This doesn't sound strange to me at all. What am I missing?

Schneibster · 15th October 2007, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

Sniff sniff....Does anyone smell onions here?

Nawww, that's what Pravda has turned into (or perhaps always was). Ever seen the National Enquirer front pages in the checkout line at the supermarket? Yeah.

robinson · 16th October 2007, 08:28 PM

Sparks fly over Peru meteorite

Quote:

It's a story worthy of an "Indiana Jones" sequel: Drawn by outlandish legends, a controversial collector journeys to Peru, purchases pieces of a rare meteorite under shady circumstances, then has to hightail it across the border to Bolivia with police in hot pursuit.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com....php?id=108502

Quote:

Farmer, meanwhile, bemoans the lack of scientific access to the meteorite's motherlode. Even Peruvian scientists say they have been turned away by the police guarding the site. And Farmer said it's only a matter of time before the crater fills in during the Andean region's rainy season. The more time the fragile rock spends buried in the mud, the less scientifically valuable it will become.

"I told them, 'For the love of God, dig up the meteorite,'" Farmer said.
http://strange.blosker.com/link/peru...llenquot-21356

Possible picture of the smoke trail
http://meteoriteguy.com/carancassmoketrail.jpg

Quote:

The strange case of the Peruvian fireball is an occurrence that those villagers will probably never forget - and that goes for Farmer as well.

"This has turned out to be an incredible event," he told me. "I've been doing meteorites for 13 years, and nothing even close to this has ever happened."

18th September 2007, 06:53 AM	#1
GoodGuysEatPie Constructive Interference Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Westchester, New York Posts: 426	Villagers in Peru claim meteorite has made them ill A friend sent me this story this morning. I haven't had time yet to fully investigate it. Apparently a meteorite is claimed to cause all sorts of sickness to some villagers in Peru. I very much doubt it's the meteorite itself that's making them sick. http://www.reuters.com/news/video/vi...?videoId=66641 ~goodguyseatpie~

18th September 2007, 08:25 AM	#2
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,702	Considering the stuff we put up in orbit, who knows what will fall down. Evidence has yet to be gathered.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

18th September 2007, 08:41 AM	#3
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,412	Isn't there already a thread elsewhere on JREF about H P Lovecraft's, The Color Out of Space? Quote: It all began, old Ammi said, with the meteorite. Before that time there had been no wild legends at all since the witch trials, and even then these western woods were not feared half so much as the small island in the Miskatonic where the devil held court beside a curious 'lone altar older than the Indians.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

18th September 2007, 08:46 AM	#4
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Isn't there already a thread elsewhere on JREF about H P Lovecraft's, The Color Out of Space? Cornsnard it! You stole my thunder!
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

18th September 2007, 09:05 AM	#5
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,900	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Isn't there already a thread elsewhere on JREF about H P Lovecraft's, The Color Out of Space? Which IIRC was the first clearly reported Predator visit to Earth.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,900

18th September 2007, 11:28 AM	#6
GoodGuysEatPie Constructive Interference Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Westchester, New York Posts: 426	Originally Posted by Dancing David Considering the stuff we put up in orbit, who knows what will fall down. Evidence has yet to be gathered. Exactly. The text article only mentioned anecdotes from "village officials". It probably is a meteorite (rather than space garbage), but reports of noxious fumes and "boiling water" makes me raise an eyebrow. Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Isn't there already a thread elsewhere on JREF about H P Lovecraft's, The Color Out of Space? lol...ahem. I think you've solved the mystery. Nothing more to see here.

18th September 2007, 02:12 PM	#7
Macoy Writing on water Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,363	Here's a picture: http://www.spaceweather.com/
Macoy Writing on water Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,363	__________________ Realists live in a world of their own

18th September 2007, 03:52 PM	#8
neutrino_cannon Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seventh circle of limbo Posts: 2,571	If that really is the correct picture, perhaps this is a sewer line or something that's exploded?
	__________________ "Man would have been too happy, if, limiting himself to the visible objects which interested him, he had employed, to perfect his real sciences, his laws, his morals, his education, one half-the efforts he has put into his researches on the Divinity" -Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Necessity of Atheism

18th September 2007, 08:05 PM	#9
GoodGuysEatPie Constructive Interference Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Westchester, New York Posts: 426	Originally Posted by neutrino_cannon If that really is the correct picture, perhaps this is a sewer line or something that's exploded? After seeing the pictures more now, I'm revised my earlier thought that it was likely a meteorite. Now I don't think there's evidence yet that it was from space at all. Now I think it is more likely to more of human-made/terrestial origin. Exploded sewer line isn't a bad guess... ~goodguyseatpie~

18th September 2007, 08:52 PM	#10
Achán hiNidráne Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,979	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Isn't there already a thread elsewhere on JREF about H P Lovecraft's, The Color Out of Space? That's what I thought when I first heard this story. I guess we'll know what the Colour sucks the lifeforce out of every living thing in Peru, leaving the whole country a pile of gray dust.
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

18th September 2007, 09:19 PM	#11
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7001897.stm The locals say they saw a fireball. Humm, the crater doesn't look 30m wide to me. Anyone missing a rocket?

19th September 2007, 12:49 PM	#12
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,192	i saw this report on the bbc - there was a meterorite expert of some description saying that she was sceptical that it would be a meterorite, but there was no real explanation as to why.... for us non-meterorite experts, why is it unlikely to be such an event?
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

19th September 2007, 02:46 PM	#13
Macoy Writing on water Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,363	Originally Posted by andyandy i saw this report on the bbc - there was a meterorite expert of some description saying that she was sceptical that it would be a meterorite, but there was no real explanation as to why.... for us non-meterorite experts, why is it unlikely to be such an event? My original link has moved to here: http://www.spaceweather.com/archive....h=09&year=2007 No update on seismic reports.
Macoy Writing on water Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,363	__________________ Realists live in a world of their own

19th September 2007, 05:31 PM	#14
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,741	Originally Posted by neutrino_cannon If that really is the correct picture, perhaps this is a sewer line or something that's exploded? It doesn't look at all wholesome, does it? Frankly, I wouldn't want to live near it. Just looking at it would make me feel ill. In a more general sense, meteorite-meets-landfill is perhaps an unknown unknown that needs to be looked into. Not that I'm trying to alarm anybody.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

19th September 2007, 05:43 PM	#15
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,741	Originally Posted by andyandy i saw this report on the bbc - there was a meterorite expert of some description saying that she was sceptical that it would be a meterorite, but there was no real explanation as to why.... for us non-meterorite experts, why is it unlikely to be such an event? I think the scepticism is mostly to do with the likelihood of alternative explanations. The "How can I get out of this?" local effect. Once there are boots on the ground we'll learn more.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

19th September 2007, 05:48 PM	#16
GoodGuysEatPie Constructive Interference Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Westchester, New York Posts: 426	Scientist in Peru confirms meteorite... Originally Posted by andyandy i saw this report on the bbc - there was a meterorite expert of some description saying that she was sceptical that it would be a meterorite, but there was no real explanation as to why.... for us non-meterorite experts, why is it unlikely to be such an event? Up to now, there just hasn't been evidence pointing towards a meteorite, except local anecdotes of the "fireball." A fireball sighting is consistent with an object large enough to make a crater, but...I don't think anybody has ever heard of a meteorite making people sick... This just in, however: Meteorite is confirmed as a chondrite. For the non-meteorite experts, here's a nice explanation about chondrites, from NASA. I'm STILL skeptical, however. Until the material has been tested by someone outside of Peru, it could be a fallen a satellite for we know... ~goodguyseatpie~
	Last edited by GoodGuysEatPie; 19th September 2007 at 05:49 PM. Reason: put my signature in

19th September 2007, 05:49 PM	#17
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,741	Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert That's what I thought when I first heard this story. I guess we'll know what the Colour sucks the lifeforce out of every living thing in Peru, leaving the whole country a pile of gray dust. I'll bite if no-one else will ... Don't you mean "white powder"?
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

20th September 2007, 12:00 AM	#18
DRBUZZ0 Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: The Command Bunker Posts: 3,320	Are they sure it's a meteorite and it didn't come from a passing aircrafts... um.... sanitary system? That could possibly make them sick. I suppose a meteor could make you sick if it hit you and broke the skin a bit and it got infected...

20th September 2007, 06:19 AM	#19
GoodGuysEatPie Constructive Interference Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Westchester, New York Posts: 426	Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0 Are they sure it's a meteorite and it didn't come from a passing aircrafts... um.... sanitary system? That could possibly make them sick. I suppose a meteor could make you sick if it hit you and broke the skin a bit and it got infected... See the article linked to two posts up. Meteorite material has been confirmed (though no second analysis yet from the outside). I remain unconvinced that a meteorite itself could cause 200 people to get sick like this. The sickness would probably be caused by whatever the impact kicked into the air from the surface. ~goodguyseatpie~

20th September 2007, 09:22 AM	#20
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,790	Not to mention mass hysteria/ hypochondria. Hmmm, note the similarity? hypochondria-chondrite? Sick from a low chondrite?
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,790	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

20th September 2007, 11:00 AM	#21
GoodGuysEatPie Constructive Interference Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Westchester, New York Posts: 426	New York Times article A major news outlet has finally discussed the crater in an analytical way: New York Times discussion of the Crater The New York Times article also gives plenty of credit to science bloggers Alternate hypotheses are thrown around. Note that in the discussion thread that follows the article, the first post says it's a government cover-up! Sheesh.

20th September 2007, 12:06 PM	#22
Macoy Writing on water Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,363	Still no seismic reports, then.
Macoy Writing on water Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,363	__________________ Realists live in a world of their own

20th September 2007, 12:38 PM	#23
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Making Mytheon come to life Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by CapelDodger I'll bite if no-one else will ... Don't you mean "white powder"? Nope, gray dust: http://www.yankeeclassic.com/miskato...as/colouro.htm
	__________________ Amy: You should try homeopathic medicine, Bender. Try some zinc. Bender: I am forty percent zinc. Amy: Then take some echinacea, or St. John's Wort. Professor: Or a big fat placebo. It's all the same crap.

20th September 2007, 03:15 PM	#24
GoodGuysEatPie Constructive Interference Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Westchester, New York Posts: 426	Originally Posted by Macoy Still no seismic reports, then. I haven't seen a specific seismic report for that location, but here's a more general report from IRIS: Seismic Monitor: South America Note in that report the red circle, showing activity from today. That red circle is pretty much exactly where the Puna region of Peru is. The region in general is a seismically active place. An alternative hypothesis for the mystery crater is that it is a volcanic outcropping. That would explain the crater, the boiling water, and the noxious gases. Volcanic fumes can make people very ill. It is possible that the fireball sighting was just a coincidence and that this outcropping just happened to be where the villagers went to investigate. ~goodguyseatpie~

20th September 2007, 06:07 PM	#25
Macoy Writing on water Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,363	There are theories that tectonic events can produce 'plasma fireballs' similar to so-called ball lightning.
Macoy Writing on water Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,363	__________________ Realists live in a world of their own

20th September 2007, 06:53 PM	#26
Mr. Scott Under the Amazing One's Wing Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA Posts: 2,273	From NY Times: Quote: Update, 6:48 PM Eastern [9/20] More convincing tests are in: It’s a meteorite, but there’s still no explanation for the boiling water, the odors and the sickness. Also, the hole got smaller in this latest measurement. More details from The A.P.: Astrophysicist Jose Ishitsuka of Peru’s Geophysics Institute reached the site about 6 miles from Lake Titicaca. He confirmed that a meteorite caused a crater 42 feet wide and 15 feet deep, the institute’s president, Ronald Woodman, told The Associated Press on Thursday. Ishitsuka recovered a 3-inch magnetic fragment and said it contained iron, a mineral found in all rocks from space. The impact also registered a magnitude-1.5 tremor on the institute’s seismic equipment _ that’s as much as an explosion of 4.9 tons of dynamite, Woodman said.
	__________________ "thhere's waaaay too much colonialism and white supremacy in our culture to even THINK about addressing the religion of brown people, the end." A+ Global Moderator ceepolk, Dec. 9, 2012

21st September 2007, 04:45 PM	#27
phildonnia Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sac'to CA Posts: 2,339	My suspicion is a mass sociogenic illness, of which nausea is a common symptom. A totally unexpert observation is that such cases often involve sensations of strange odors; the Gloria Ramirez incident, and the Mad Gasser for example.

21st September 2007, 05:17 PM	#28
petra10 Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: scotland uk Posts: 1,796	My dad worked in the coal mines.He was always talking about gases and bacterial stuff down the mines that caused the miners to feel sick.Couldn't the meteorite not just have hit something like that.

22nd September 2007, 03:25 PM	#29
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,519	Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0 Are they sure it's a meteorite and it didn't come from a passing aircrafts... um.... sanitary system? That could possibly make them sick. I suppose a meteor could make you sick if it hit you and broke the skin a bit and it got infected... That would have to have been a veerrrrry large er um chunk of ice to have made that size crater.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

25th September 2007, 02:48 PM	#30
GoodGuysEatPie Constructive Interference Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Westchester, New York Posts: 426	Solved Mystery The New York Times today had a wrap up of the Peru crater & related illnesses. The culprit for the villager's sickness now appears to be quite mundane: the soil there contained arsenic-tainted water, and the meteorite kicked that up into the air. New York Times - Perus Meteor It's nice to see that at least one media outlet (besides bloggers) followed up on this little, weird story. ~goodguyseatpie~

25th September 2007, 06:23 PM	#31
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,519	I don't believe the arsenic claim either, at least until I see evidence not just that it was there, but that it actually caused the symptoms. If there is that much arsenic in the soil, such that stirring some into the air made people who went near the crater ill, then these people would be exposed to an awful lot of arsenic the rest of the time. Why wouldn't the air contamination have drifted further (small particle size) or settled more quickly (large particle size)? Wouldn't these folks have some tolerance built up which the outside scientists and other officials didn't? This is a picture of psychsomatic illness, not arsenic kicked up by a meteorite. Why are you willing to accept an explanation without evidence even if it is more plausible than the original explanation radiation sickness was occurring? from the article: Quote: The illness was the result of inhaling arsenic fumes, according to Luisa Macedo, a researcher for Peru’s Mining, Metallurgy, and Geology Institute (INGEMMET), who visited the crash site. The meteorite created the gases when the object’s hot surface met an underground water supply tainted with arsenic, the scientists said. Numerous arsenic deposits have been found in the subsoils of southern Peru, explained Modesto Montoya, a nuclear physicist who collaborated with the team. The naturally formed deposits contaminate local drinking water. “If the meteorite arrives incandescent and at a high temperature because of friction in the atmosphere, hitting water can create a column of steam,” added José Ishitsuka, an astronomer at the Peruvian Geophysics Institute, who analyzed the object. So you have a geologist making a diagnosis of a medical illness and he doesn't even have blood tests or other medical records to suggest the diagnosis at least as far as one can see from this report. In addition, the surface of a meteor which is heated up is so thin it cools too quickly to fit this explanation. I'll have to see how big a meteorite has to be before the impact involves substantial heat. One would think an astronomer would know but my experience with meteorites at the UW here in Seattle is that the planetary geologists were meteorite experts but every single astronomer most certainly wasn't. Even if it turns out heat was substantial (size of meteorite/size of crater make it possible) the symptoms of arsenic poisoning are acute abdominal pain and other sever GI symptoms. Inhalation can lead to lung cancer but it isn't a usual means of absorbing large doses despite the fact exposure to arsenic air contaminants is common (via cutting treated lumber and around smelters).
	__________________ (Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.) Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 25th September 2007 at 06:51 PM.*

26th September 2007, 07:54 AM	#32
GoodGuysEatPie Constructive Interference Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Westchester, New York Posts: 426	Skeptigirl makes several good points, though I would please ask not to shoot the messenger. I was merely pointing to the NYT Lede article and praising the NYT for actually following up on the story, even though they were generally accepting of this as a "solved mystery". I myself am still in "wait for more information" mode. I could have actually made that clear. Originally Posted by skeptigirl Why wouldn't the air contamination have drifted further (small particle size) or settled more quickly (large particle size)? How do we know it did not do either of these? The concentration of vaporized arsenic in the air would probably diminish by the time more investigators came. This is still a very plausible scenario. However, you are right to wonder if the villager's sickness is real...and, if it is, was it actually caused by arsenic (though the article did mention a couple other contaminants as well). Originally Posted by skeptigirl from the article:So you have a geologist making a diagnosis of a medical illness and he doesn't even have blood tests or other medical records to suggest the diagnosis at least as far as one can see from this report. In addition, the surface of a meteor which is heated up is so thin it cools too quickly to fit this explanation. I'll have to see how big a meteorite has to be before the impact involves substantial heat. One would think an astronomer would know but my experience with meteorites at the UW here in Seattle is that the planetary geologists were meteorite experts but every single astronomer most certainly wasn't. As an astronomer, I can say that I have known plenty of other astronomers who specialized in meteorites and were fairly knowledgeable about them. The distinction between astronomer and planetary geologist becomes fuzzier, especially when they work in a geophysics laboratory. I'm curious, Skeptigirl, are you in the astro department at UW? (that's a great program) ~goodguyseatpie~
	Last edited by GoodGuysEatPie; 26th September 2007 at 09:48 AM.

28th September 2007, 11:02 PM	#33
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,519	I wasn't trying to shoot the messenger, just trying to stir the, "it's settled, that explains it", mentality up a bit. And I didn't mean there were no astronomers in the meteorite field, I should have made that more clear. I merely meant to say just being an astronomer didn't necessarily make one a meteorite expert. My experience taking my specimens to the UW for ID just happened to surprise me when I had the astronomy folks send me to the geology department. At that university they have actually merged several fields in an interesting way. Earth and Space Sciences
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

29th September 2007, 09:15 PM	#34
Mozybyte Scholar Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 83	Maybe this will help... American spy satellite downed in Peru as US nuclear attack on Iran thwarted
Mozybyte Scholar Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 83	__________________ Truth is Chickens and Pigs don't grow in cages. Zero PLUS a little less, 0+(-C) = Everything Here Zero by cancellation is procreative Reality even though virtual is extremely Real Todays Mail

30th September 2007, 07:39 AM	#35
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,412	Originally Posted by Mozybyte Maybe this will help... American spy satellite downed in Peru as US nuclear attack on Iran thwarted Ah. So that's the explanation! Does nobody own a geiger counter?
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick