Truth about Nordost Valhalla power cord for audio system

[ExtremeSkeptic]

I have owned Valhalla power cord for 2 and half years now. I have cut and sliced everything to pieces and now I know the truth. I have written many megabytes of logs so I will try to sum up everything into a short text.

Noise + Valhalla = Real life

I have found that Valhalla uses AC noise in order to give fake transparency to the sound. It doesn't function without the noise, the noise must be there! It works best when plugged into the wall without any shielding or power conditioning.

AC noise and EMI entering the cable makes it sound edgy and thin. Valhalla makes it sound smooth and thick. When you combine both of them together you get the illusion of transparency and dynamics!

Removing low-level detail

Both the AC noise and Valhalla remove a lot of low-level detail which makes the background appear dead black. The AC noise makes it edgier which gives the illusion of more blackness. The Valhalla hides low-level detail which makes it cleaner, it also transforms the edginess into smooth whiteness.
The end result is more blackness and whiteness than neutral.

Vishnu

The original Valhalla has 7 conductors total. 3 for live and neutral, and 1 for ground. Vishnu has 3 conductors total, 1 for each signal.
I have done a lot of A/B-ing and Vishnu sounded noisier, thinner and faster than Valhalla, the background was noisy and it sounded veiled like something was in front of the music. I didn't know the reason but now I do. Vishnu has more low-level detail than Valhalla because it is thinner and has better noise rejection. When I separated the conductors of Vishnu I got edgier sound, the veil was reduced and it was little closer to Valhalla.

Modding the Valhalla for the most low-level detail

The first time I modded the Valhalla from the original 3 conductors per signal into 2 conductors it sounded very thin, edgy, open, cold and fatiguing. Later I realized it was just more revealing. I found the problem and it was resonance making everything brighter, after I added more vibration isolation everything got too heavy, and then I tried the Valhalla mod again and it worked. I got more speed and low-level detail. After I wrapped the Valhallas in ERS Paper I could move down to 1 conductor per signal. The improvement in low-level detail was crazy.

Later I compared 18awg stock cable + ERS vs 16awg Valhalla + ERS and I got more low-level detail with the stock cable, but it was noisy and fatiguing. The Valhalla sounded very clean just because it removed the noisy low-level detail. Stock cable gives a more neutral signal transfer while all aftermarket cables color the sound. I always preferred stock over Vishnu and PS Audio Statement. Valhalla was the only cable I liked more than stock because it made it sound like real life.

The more I tweaked my system the more low-level detail I got, but the background wasn't black anymore. It didn't make sense. I thought removing AC noise, EMI and vibration would give a blacker background, but it just made it dry, grey and warm with more low-level detail. Changing Toslink into AES/EBU made the same difference. The Toslink has a blacker background because the edginess made the low-level detail less apparent.

Short vs long Valhalla, 1 conductor per signal

I have done this experiment many times using 1 conductor per signal. The longest Valhalla I tried was 6.5 meters, and the shortest was 50cm.

• The longer the Valhalla is the cleaner, smoother, thinner, flatter, warmer and boomier it sounds like. The toned down mids and added boominess gives the illusion of more oomph in the bottom end, but it's very subtle.
• The shorter cable gives more dynamics, bass, transparency and low-level detail.

I have found that the best combination is to use the longest Valhallas at the beginning of the chain and end up with the shortest for the amp. I use 2m for CD transport, 1m for DAC, 50cm for amp. I use 1m for power conditioner because 50cm sounded too noisy.

Longer Valhalla for computer transport

My computer is 44.1 kHz with Toslink output. It doesn't have any tweaks anymore, the case is open and there is a lot of EMI all over the place. So it was time for an experiment. First I tried a 1 conductor Valhalla that was 5.5 meters long, I added it after 10+ meters of stock extension strips and stock cable. It confirmed my findings, it removed a lot of low-level detail compared to stock cable. My computer used to sound very harsh and edgy but with the 5.5m Valhalla the sound was smoother and cleaner than ever. I could listen for hours without any fatigue. But it sounded thin and veiled. Everything was too warm with too little bass.

Shorter + fatter Valhalla for computer transport

I wanted to boost up the bass so I built a 5 conductor Valhalla that was 1 meter long. It sounded much heavier and edgier than the 1 conductor 5.5 meter Valhalla. But bass transients were missing, it just sounded boom-boom-boom with stuff missing in between the beats.
There was a bigger reduction in low-level detail from a thicker cable than from a longer cable.

• The longer the Valhalla is the more of its own coloration it adds to the sound, it removes low-level detail to make it cleaner and smoother.
• A thicker Valhalla adds more body to the sound, but removes more low-level detail than a much longer cable. The reduction of low-level detail from the thicker cable doesn't make it smoother like the longer cable does, it just stays edgy.

When you are using a shorter and thicker Valhalla you get edgier and heavier sound with the illusion of transparency and dynamics. My computer now has more transparency than my modded CD transport that costs 20 times more, I don't mind the sacrifice in low-level detail when it sounds like real life.

In a proper audio system the Valhalla power cord just veils the sound. Valhalla works best with cheap and crappy gear infected with noise. People say it's insane to use a 10 times more expensive power cord than the component it is plugged into, but it's not insane, it's very smart. $3000 Valhalla power cord with $300 computer is the way to go!

[/quote]

[this charming man]

Originally Posted by ExtremeSkeptic

I have owned Valhalla power cord for 2 and half years now...snip

The important question here is:

Have you wrapped it all in tinfoil yet?

[madurobob]

Originally Posted by ExtremeSkeptic

<major snippage>
...Valhalla works best with cheap and crappy gear infected with noise. People say it's insane to use a 10 times more expensive power cord than the component it is plugged into, but it's not insane, it's very smart. $3000 Valhalla power cord with $300 computer is the way to go!

Dood, seriously - scale back you posts.

So, you are saying that in a double-blind experiment you guarantee you can regularly identify the computer with the valhalla power cord versus one powered by a variety of cheap power cords such as come with the computer or 12 ga. zip cord?

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

Originally Posted by madurobob

Dood, seriously - scale back you posts.

So, you are saying that in a double-blind experiment you guarantee you can regularly identify the computer with the valhalla power cord versus one powered by a variety of cheap power cords such as come with the computer or 12 ga. zip cord?

BTW, if you think you're going to get a clear answer from ES, you're in for a big surprise.

Check out his nutty YouTube videos where he whispers in a dark room for half an hour straight about how much he loves his power cord. Hoo boy.

[DaChew]

Originally Posted by Ripley Twenty-Nine

...he whispers in a dark room for half an hour straight about how much he loves his power cord. Hoo boy.

And he's actually talking about a power cord? A cord you plug into a wall outlet to carry electricity to a piece of electronic equipment? You're sure it's not a euphemism?

[this charming man]

Originally Posted by DaChew

And he's actually talking about a power cord? A cord you plug into a wall outlet to carry electricity to a piece of electronic equipment? You're sure it's not a euphemism?

see this thread too

[illogical]

as i stated before -- food, caffeine, and sex are going to affect your hearing. avoid them completely.

the tweakos will have to topple the DB ABX before they gain any credibility in the engineering world.

[technoextreme]

Dam it. How do I delete a post? Anway reading this is kind of confusing me. Im assuming a power cable means it's a frequency at 60Hz which pretty much means any cable will do. At that frequency a cable can be treated as a simple wire unless you do some funky things to it (IE include a ferrite bead).

[ktesibios]

The line cord is only the last six feet or so of the path from the power company's pole transformer to the amplifier. It's unlikely that the contractor who wired the house or installed the service entrance chose cable on the basis of what audio tweakos approve, and it's @#$% certain that the power company didn't bother with such considerations in installing the service drop from their network to the house.

If the wiring isn't in conduit, then the AC is passing through dozen's or hundreds of feet of unshielded cable, and the only part of the circuit where the conductors are even twisted will be the service drop outside.

So adding six feet of overpriced line cord will change all that how??

[bruto]

Oh do enlighten me please.

1. How does the Valhalla either make or preserve noise that other cords do not?

2. How does this noise get through the power supply, the transformer, diodes, regulators, chokes, capacitors etc. that are turning that AC into highly filtered DC, and so carefully designed to remove the noise? Are you saying that cheap equipment with bad filtration works better because there's more noise? Why not just goof up the power supply on a good system and get your noise for free?

[joobz]

Looking at your image. I fear that you may be imparting some horrible audio coloring effects. This will reveal itself in the base not being as full sounding and the vocal range will often sound not up front enough.


This effect is a result of energy absorbtion within the cabling itself. the em spectrum absorbed by the plastic shielding can often result in reduced impedance transitions. This is of greatest concern because this imendance transition effect is frequency dependant. meaning you will selectively color some frequencies over others resulting in a poorly produced sound that differs from the original recordings intent.

The problem is pervasive becuase the absorbed em energy by the cable coating can take hours to months to decay, dependant upon the colorants, polymers and plasticizers used.

However, I've been working on a new outer coating for cables that work to absorb out this latent energy and ensure that your cabling can produce the proper impedence field free from this coloring effect. My coating material (which is self curing and can be applied by anyone) uses quantum dot nanotechnology which can turn the abosrbed energy into photons again. typical application costs is only $250/ft of cable, but it is worth it in the long run.

[rwguinn]

Originally Posted by joobz

Looking at your image. I fear that you may be imparting some horrible audio coloring effects. This will reveal itself in the base not being as full sounding and the vocal range will often sound not up front enough.


This effect is a result of energy absorbtion within the cabling itself. the em spectrum absorbed by the plastic shielding can often result in reduced impedance transitions. This is of greatest concern because this imendance transition effect is frequency dependant. meaning you will selectively color some frequencies over others resulting in a poorly produced sound that differs from the original recordings intent.

The problem is pervasive becuase the absorbed em energy by the cable coating can take hours to months to decay, dependant upon the colorants, polymers and plasticizers used.

However, I've been working on a new outer coating for cables that work to absorb out this latent energy and ensure that your cabling can produce the proper impedence field free from this coloring effect. My coating material (which is self curing and can be applied by anyone) uses quantum dot nanotechnology which can turn the abosrbed energy into photons again. typical application costs is only $250/ft of cable, but it is worth it in the long run.

Gosh.
I need 200*j feet of it, right away!

[roger]

Awesome! How often do I have to reapply the treatment?

[ExtremeSkeptic]

With audiophile tweaks the skeptics need to look at how it worsens the sound instead of how it improves it. When using simple logic, adding 3 feet after 100 feet of house wiring can't improve the sound, it can only make it worse, and that's what aftermarket power cords do. They make the power supply function worse.

A different thickness of cable changes the sound, this is common knowledge with audiophiles. Adding thicker wiring after thin house wiring can't improve anything. To get the most neutral sound with the most low-level detail you need to use the same thickness and material as the house wiring.

If you worsen the sound with aftermarket power cables you get smooth and veiled sound which is "better" for some audiophiles. But I preferred stock cable because it had the most low-level detail. For me it's either stock cable or Valhalla, because Valhalla worsens the sound in a way that makes it sound cleaner because the low-level detail is reduced.

If the system has excessive brightness you get more realistic sound if you tone it down. That's what audiophile tweaks do, they make it worse.

[joobz]

Originally Posted by roger

Awesome! How often do I have to reapply the treatment?

Some would claim that you need to reapply after so many hours of play time. But this is nonsense. One application is good enough for at least 20 years.

Now, if you were to upgrade your system, a new coat might be recommened. This would prevent hysteresis in the coating from coloring your new equipment.

[joobz]

Originally Posted by rwguinn

Gosh.
I need 200*j feet of it, right away!

Thank you for your purchase. It's in the mail!

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by ExtremeSkeptic

this is common knowledge with audiophiles.

Funniest forum line of September.

Quote:

Valhalla worsens the sound in a way that makes it sound cleaner because the low-level detail is reduced.

Why do I doubt that's what it says in the promotional literature?

[joobz]

Originally Posted by ExtremeSkeptic

With audiophile tweaks the skeptics need to look at how it worsens the sound instead of how it improves it.

Simply wrong. You can't know how it "worsens" since you do not have a pure source for comparision. All you can do is see how it recreates the source based off of an ideal system.

Actually, I can't see how you don't hear the cable coloring based upon the wiring in your diagram. The only way you can get rid of that is with the quantum dot coating I've made. But then again, if you can't hear the effect I'm describing, then you obviously don't have the descerning audio pallate to warrant all of the money you spent. Which would mean you would only waste money on my product. It really is only for the high-end consumer. Most people are completely happy with sub-standard audio quality.

[madurobob]

Originally Posted by ExtremeSkeptic

With audiophile tweaks the skeptics need to look at how it worsens the sound instead of how it improves it. When using simple logic, adding 3 feet after 100 feet of house wiring can't improve the sound, it can only make it worse, and that's what aftermarket power cords do. They make the power supply function worse.

A different thickness of cable changes the sound, this is common knowledge with audiophiles. Adding thicker wiring after thin house wiring can't improve anything. To get the most neutral sound with the most low-level detail you need to use the same thickness and material as the house wiring.

This is too funny. So, the closer I am to the power generating facility the better the sound right? Why don't all you audiophiles simply have a 5KW generator outside and 00 cable from line to load? How cool would that be!

Or, at the very least, run 00 cable from the panel box buss to the equipment in order to bypass all those feet of unshielded 12 or 14 ga cable in the house. Have you tried that? I could make the adapters for a small fee.

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by DaChew

And he's actually talking about a power cord? A cord you plug into a wall outlet to carry electricity to a piece of electronic equipment? You're sure it's not a euphemism?

I do NOT want to take a chance on watching this unless you can guarantee that there are neither moans, groans, gasps or rhythmic sounds in the background

[IMST]

I'm trained as an audio engineer. We're well versed in the following concept:
LAW OF DIMISHING RETURNS
a $3000 power chord is not worth that much more than a $50 chord.
It sounds like from skimming your description that this one is WORSE because it is changing the sound.
Better to spend the money somewhere where a real positive difference could be made.
Yes, a benefit can be gained in sound quality from a better chord, but $3000 per is NUTS.

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Originally Posted by Gravy

Funniest forum line of September.

Why do I doubt that's what it says in the promotional literature?

Yes, Nordost uses false marketing for their cables. They say their cables are neutral but they are far from neutral. The Valhalla cables sound the same in every system they are used in, that's enough information to know they aren't neutral. They just worsen the sound in a way that makes it sound like real life.

Stock power cables have more low-level detail, but I don't like the sound of neutrality, it is very boring and I just want to turn off the music. But with Valhalla I want to keep listening even when there is less low-level detail. Removing stuff from the music makes it sound cleaner. Stock cable sounds noisy because of too much low-level detail. Audiophiles are confusing that low-level detail with noise problems in the audio system, I did. When they buy an aftermarket power cord that "noise" is gone. But it wasn't noise in the first place, it was low-level detail that was removed.

Audiophiles are spending $$$$$ for less neutral sound, but they think they are getting more neutral sound because of the false marketing.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally Posted by ktesibios

The line cord is only the last six feet or so of the path from the power company's pole transformer to the amplifier. It's unlikely that the contractor who wired the house or installed the service entrance chose cable on the basis of what audio tweakos approve, and it's @#$% certain that the power company didn't bother with such considerations in installing the service drop from their network to the house.

If the wiring isn't in conduit, then the AC is passing through dozen's or hundreds of feet of unshielded cable, and the only part of the circuit where the conductors are even twisted will be the service drop outside.

So adding six feet of overpriced line cord will change all that how??

Yeah, it's like having Monster speaker cables for $3 grand with "gold plated" connectors to a speaker with wires inside that are mere bell wire.
These people who buy them are suckers, born every minute. And the people who push them, like the staff at Audiophile, are born every 30 seconds.

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

Yeah, it's like having Monster speaker cables for $3 grand with "gold plated" connectors to a speaker with wires inside that are mere bell wire.
These people who buy them are suckers, born every minute. And the people who push them, like the staff at Audiophile, are born every 30 seconds.

I tried gold plated AC connectors and they removed low-level detail which made it sound "warm". It just made it worse.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally Posted by ExtremeSkeptic

I tried gold plated AC connectors and they removed low-level detail which made it sound "warm". It just made it worse.

Which minute were you born?

[bruto]

Originally Posted by In My Spare Time

I'm trained as an audio engineer. We're well versed in the following concept:
LAW OF DIMISHING RETURNS
a $3000 power chord is not worth that much more than a $50 chord.
It sounds like from skimming your description that this one is WORSE because it is changing the sound.
Better to spend the money somewhere where a real positive difference could be made.
Yes, a benefit can be gained in sound quality from a better chord, but $3000 per is NUTS.

So now I'm curious. Assuming a cord is adequate for the current demand, so there is no voltage drop, has plugs and connectors adequate to conduct current without resistive loss or noise, and that the equipment itself is reasonably well designed so that it doesn't pick up inductive hum from nearby cords, what is measurably different from one cord to another? What instruments do you use to compare cords, and what do they show?

[technoextreme]

Quote:

With audiophile tweaks the skeptics need to look at how it worsens the sound instead of how it improves it. When using simple logic, adding 3 feet after 100 feet of house wiring can't improve the sound, it can only make it worse, and that's what aftermarket power cords do. They make the power supply function worse.

You'd need 52Km of power line to really have an appreciable affect. Not only that but the power coming out of your line is crap to start with.

Quote:

So now I'm curious. Assuming a cord is adequate for the current demand, so there is no voltage drop, has plugs and connectors adequate to conduct current without resistive loss or noise, and that the equipment itself is reasonably well designed so that it doesn't pick up inductive hum from nearby cords, what is measurably different from one cord to another? What instruments do you use to compare cords, and what do they show?

The same way you compare audio cables.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by technoextreme

You'd need 52Km of power line to really have an appreciable affect. Not only that but the power coming out of your line is crap to start with.

The same way you compare audio cables.

That's not quite an informative answer. Some people compare audio cables by listening and imagining improvements. Presumably you could also compare audio cables by putting a signal through an oscilloscope or a distortion analyzer and quantifying the results. So my question remains, what instruments would you use to compare power cables, and what would you be looking for and measuring?

[technoextreme]

Originally Posted by bruto

That's not quite an informative answer. Some people compare audio cables by listening and imagining improvements. Presumably you could also compare audio cables by putting a signal through an oscilloscope or a distortion analyzer and quantifying the results. So my question remains, what instruments would you use to compare power cables, and what would you be looking for and measuring?

Quite honestly nothing. It's a power cable. At 60Hz and at only a few feet any distortion is going to be impossible to measure.

[jsiv]

Originally Posted by bruto

That's not quite an informative answer. Some people compare audio cables by listening and imagining improvements. Presumably you could also compare audio cables by putting a signal through an oscilloscope or a distortion analyzer and quantifying the results. So my question remains, what instruments would you use to compare power cables, and what would you be looking for and measuring?

Why don't we ask ExtremeSkeptic to measure the output of the power supplies with the various power cords as a simple test?

The answer you'll get, of course, is that it would be pointless as he only concerns himself with Advanced Physics beyond our comprehension and that such a test would prove nothing. His theories are completely cuckoo, and some even seem to be based on the assumption that nothing has changed since the early days of electronics, generations before he was even born, and that the same issues still exist today.

Audiophile power cords indeed.

I can't decide if it's worse than putting a jar of pebbles on your head to tweak the sound, though.

[jsiv]

Keep up the good work though, ExtremeSkeptic.


I really do enjoy reading your work.

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by jsiv

I can't decide if it's worse than putting a jar of pebbles on your head to tweak the sound, though.

Why do that when you can wear my quantum transducer conditioning balaclava ($149.95 for 20-use platinum-coated hemp model, minimum order 12; $179.95 for analog)?

[Alareth]

Originally Posted by Gravy

Why do that when you can wear my quantum transducer conditioning balaclava ($149.95 for 20-use platinum-coated hemp model, minimum order 12; $179.95 for analog)?

Does it come in colors?

[technoextreme]

Originally Posted by jsiv

Why don't we ask ExtremeSkeptic to measure the output of the power supplies with the various power cords as a simple test?

The answer you'll get, of course, is that it would be pointless as he only concerns himself with Advanced Physics beyond our comprehension and that such a test would prove nothing. His theories are completely cuckoo, and some even seem to be based on the assumption that nothing has changed since the early days of electronics, generations before he was even born, and that the same issues still exist today.

Technically speaking the aspect of electronics he's trying to relate to us hasn't changed since the telegraph. At least I think that's what he's trying to convey because quite frankly he makes my head hurt and Im supposed to know the advance physics of how this works. Any good engineer would realize that it's just pointless at this frequency with such a short length.

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by Alareth

Does it come in colors?

Well, it's reversible, but we don't recommend wearing it rough side out if you have cats.

[ExtremeSkeptic]

I was talking to an audiophile and realized they are as bad as the skeptics. He had made himself believe his system was more neutral than anything else. He tells everyone to buy the same power cords as he did without having listened to any other cables first. He said you get better sound the more it costs. He was rating the gear based on the price. His logic was even worse than the biggest skeptic. He was always justifying his own purchases by telling others how much more "neutral" it is.

But based on my experiments all the high-end gear make it less neutral. Pro gear with good measured performance have the most neutral sound, the snake-oil high-end make the sound worse. But the audiophiles can't admit it to themselves because then they would realize they wasted a lot of money. I have $30 000 worth of Valhalla cables and I'm not afraid to admit that they make it sound worse. Stock power cables are more neutral, that's why they use them in recording studios.

After 3 years of audiophilia I have found that Benchmark DAC1 and ICEpower amp gives the most neutral sound. High-end audiophile gear are made by hobbyist manufacturers in a small garage who don't know what they are doing, they are only using their ears to make their box sound "musical". All audiophiles complain of bright/edgy/digital sound and those muddy broken malfunctioning boxes hide that edginess to make it sound "warmer", but it also removes the details.

I have found that EMI, vibration and AC noise are the reasons for that edginess. Fix those problems and you get smoother sound with more detail.

[tracer]

Originally Posted by ExtremeSkeptic

I was talking to an audiophile and realized they are as bad as the skeptics.

So not even an audiophile is woo-woo enough for you?


By the way, how do you feel about the top story in the latest SWIFT? It seems a prominent audiophile may be about to take the Million Dollar Challenge.

[LTC8K6]

Quote:

I have $30 000 worth of Valhalla cables

You mean you paid that much for them, which has nothing to do with what they are worth.

[dudalb]

I see the Extreme Skeptic is still not getting the help he so badly needs.

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

You mean you paid that much for them, which has nothing to do with what they are worth.

I bought them used for half price so I could sell them if I didn't like them. I liked them but didn't know the reason. But now I do. They remove low-level detail to make it sound cleaner. Too much low-level detail sounds noisy and fatiguing. I have tried stock cable many times but I don't like neutral sound, it is too boring.