Soldier sues DoD over religious freedom

cgordon · 20th September 2007, 07:02 AM

Soldier sues DoD over religious freedom

By John Milburn - The Associated Press
Posted : Thursday Sep 20, 2007 5:43:34 EDT

FORT RILEY, Kan. — An Army soldier who unsuccessfully tried to hold a meeting for atheists and other non-Christians is suing Defense Secretary Robert Gates and an Army major, saying his right to religious freedom was violated.

The lawsuit filed Monday in federal court alleges a pattern of practices that discriminate against non-Christians in the military.

madurobob · 20th September 2007, 07:49 AM

Poor guy. He is SO going to be redeployed to Iraq and killed by an IED in the next couple of months.

"Where is your no-god now?"

Darth Rotor · 20th September 2007, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by cgordon

Soldier sues DoD over religious freedom

By John Milburn - The Associated Press
Posted : Thursday Sep 20, 2007 5:43:34 EDT

FORT RILEY, Kan. — An Army soldier who unsuccessfully tried to hold a meeting for atheists and other non-Christians is suing Defense Secretary Robert Gates and an Army major, saying his right to religion freedom was violated.

The lawsuit filed Monday in federal court alleges a pattern of practices that discriminate against non-Christians in the military.

How is atheism a religion, again?

On the R & P forum, a pretty good case has been made that Atheism is not a religion. Perhaps he is making a variation on the Establishment Clause argument, or even a XIVth Amendment bid, based on an equal protection (for both religious and on religious persons, and an atheist is non religious) under the law.

Or, he may have begun this with a standard EO grievance (unfair treatment) under DoD regulations and it has turned into a lawsuit for any number of reasons.

This will be interesting to watch unfold.

DR

IMST · 20th September 2007, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

How is atheism a religion, again?

On the R & P forum, a pretty good case has been made that Atheism is not a religion. Perhaps he is making a variation on the Establishment Clause argument, or even a XIVth Amendment bid, based on an equal protection (for both religious and on religious persons, and an atheist is non religious) under the law.

Or, he may have begun this with a standard EO grievance (unfair treatment) under DoD regulations and it has turned into a lawsuit for any number of reasons.

This will be interesting to watch unfold.

DR

Seems to me the right to religious freedom includes the right not be religious. And if religious groups can organize, then why not the community of the non religious. I think he's got a case if the facts pan out.

bokonon · 20th September 2007, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

How is atheism a religion, again?

I think interfering with a meeting of self-proclaimed atheists would violate freedom of religion regulations even though atheism is not a religion.

Since, in this case, the meeting was for "atheists and other non-Christians," the defense won't have that leg to stand on anyway.

pgwenthold · 20th September 2007, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

How is atheism a religion, again?

It's not.

His objection in this case is that he is being required to have religion in order to use the facilities. He is arguing that the policy infringes on his freedom to not have a religion because his group is denied privelidges that religious groups get.

Cain · 20th September 2007, 07:45 PM

Freedom of religion is closely related to freedom of conscience and freedom of worship. Religious belief is often at the core of a person's identity, unlike, say, a favorite television show (yes, there are exceptions). The problem for non-theists is that a lack of belief in a god or gods would be completely meaningless, much like a lack of belief in dragons or pixies, if not for the fact that a lot of people believe in god(s). Atheist meetings are conducted by an large to sneer, perhaps sharpen arguments, but mostly to meet like-minded people (in my experience). Maybe religious gatherings are brought together for essentially the same purposes, but formally doing as God says, glorifying "Him," and so on. That said, the atheists should probably get their meeting because the world is a messy place.

bigred · 23rd September 2007, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by cgordon

The lawsuit filed Monday in federal court alleges a pattern of practices that discriminate against non-Christians in the military.

If he means the military in general, that's about as laughable as "the military is racist" bits which people have tried to pull in their boneheaded attempts to whine/get their way regardless of logic/etc. While specific individuals in the military may be racist (or bigoted religiously) in any given case, the military itself is pointedly and explicitly anything but, and goes out of its way to make sure this is so and people know it's so. It's not just "CYA" either; they mean it.

Then again this is an Army puke we're talking about, so stupid should be expected.

My guess is it was closing time @ the MWR but he wanted to stay and they booted him out.

Beerina · 23rd September 2007, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

It's not.

His objection in this case is that he is being required to have religion in order to use the facilities. He is arguing that the policy infringes on his freedom to not have a religion because his group is denied privelidges that religious groups get.

I believe the US Supreme Court has ruled that atheism is a religion in the sense that atheist beliefs enjoy the same First Ammendment protection as "religous" beliefs.

This would be an interesting case -- with that interpretation, it would definitely be wrong for the military to restrict use of those "religion" rooms from atheists having atheist discussions.

Checkmite · 23rd September 2007, 11:44 AM

It's interesting that today soldiers try to get around orders by suing their commanders.

drkitten · 24th September 2007, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi

It's interesting that today soldiers try to get around orders by suing their commanders.

... as is appropriate when commanders exceed their lawful authority and issue unlawful orders.

What will you do when your commander tells you to torture and execute POWs?

Checkmite · 24th September 2007, 09:30 AM

I'm not sure disallowing use of a room for a private meeting is the same as ordering someone to torture and execute POWs.

Miss Anthrope · 24th September 2007, 09:44 AM

I think the meat of the case lies here:

Quote:

According to the filing, Spc. Jeremy Hall received permission to distribute flyers around his base in Iraq for a meeting of atheists and non-Christians. When he tried to convene the meeting, Hall said, Maj. Paul Welborne stepped in, threatening to file military charges against Hall and block his re-enlistment.

Quote:

The lawsuit claims Hall was forced to “submit to a religious test as a qualification to his post as a soldier.” Hall and the foundation are asking the court to block Welborne from establishing “compulsory religious practices” and order Gates to prevent Welborne from interfering with Hall’s free speech rights

This is about a lot more than the use of facilities.

bigred · 24th September 2007, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi

I'm not sure disallowing use of a room for a private meeting is the same as ordering someone to torture and execute POWs.

ya think?

PS suing one's commander is not 'appropriate' - in fact it's "N/A" and absurd. This is the military, which is quite different than the civilian world in various ways. More appropriate is not to follow the order and/or report it to one's supervisor and/or his commander's superior.

Checkmite · 24th September 2007, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Miss Anthrope

I think the meat of the case lies here:

Ah. Still - there's a protocol to follow, and I'm not convinced it was followed here. If you're given an illegal order, then you follow up the order-giver's chain of command until you get the results you want.

20th September 2007, 07:02 AM	#1
cgordon Muse Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 900	Soldier sues DoD over religious freedom Soldier sues DoD over religious freedom By John Milburn - The Associated Press Posted : Thursday Sep 20, 2007 5:43:34 EDT FORT RILEY, Kan. — An Army soldier who unsuccessfully tried to hold a meeting for atheists and other non-Christians is suing Defense Secretary Robert Gates and an Army major, saying his right to religious freedom was violated. The lawsuit filed Monday in federal court alleges a pattern of practices that discriminate against non-Christians in the military.
	__________________ "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

20th September 2007, 07:49 AM	#2
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven, NC Posts: 5,519	Poor guy. He is SO going to be redeployed to Iraq and killed by an IED in the next couple of months. "Where is your no-god now?"
	__________________ Insert witty phrase or out of context post by another member here.

20th September 2007, 09:07 AM	#3
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,261	Originally Posted by cgordon Soldier sues DoD over religious freedom By John Milburn - The Associated Press Posted : Thursday Sep 20, 2007 5:43:34 EDT FORT RILEY, Kan. — An Army soldier who unsuccessfully tried to hold a meeting for atheists and other non-Christians is suing Defense Secretary Robert Gates and an Army major, saying his right to religion freedom was violated. The lawsuit filed Monday in federal court alleges a pattern of practices that discriminate against non-Christians in the military. How is atheism a religion, again? On the R & P forum, a pretty good case has been made that Atheism is not a religion. Perhaps he is making a variation on the Establishment Clause argument, or even a XIVth Amendment bid, based on an equal protection (for both religious and on religious persons, and an atheist is non religious) under the law. Or, he may have begun this with a standard EO grievance (unfair treatment) under DoD regulations and it has turned into a lawsuit for any number of reasons. This will be interesting to watch unfold. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 20th September 2007 at 09:10 AM.

20th September 2007, 11:25 AM	#5
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,444	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor How is atheism a religion, again? I think interfering with a meeting of self-proclaimed atheists would violate freedom of religion regulations even though atheism is not a religion. Since, in this case, the meeting was for "atheists and other non-Christians," the defense won't have that leg to stand on anyway.
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,444

20th September 2007, 11:59 AM	#6
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,066	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor How is atheism a religion, again? It's not. His objection in this case is that he is being required to have religion in order to use the facilities. He is arguing that the policy infringes on his freedom to not have a religion because his group is denied privelidges that religious groups get.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

20th September 2007, 11:11 AM	#4
IMST If Charlie Parker Was a Gunslinger, There'd Be a Whole Lot of Dead Copycats Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,128	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor How is atheism a religion, again? On the R & P forum, a pretty good case has been made that Atheism is not a religion. Perhaps he is making a variation on the Establishment Clause argument, or even a XIVth Amendment bid, based on an equal protection (for both religious and on religious persons, and an atheist is non religious) under the law. Or, he may have begun this with a standard EO grievance (unfair treatment) under DoD regulations and it has turned into a lawsuit for any number of reasons. This will be interesting to watch unfold. DR Seems to me the right to religious freedom includes the right not be religious. And if religious groups can organize, then why not the community of the non religious. I think he's got a case if the facts pan out.

20th September 2007, 07:45 PM	#7
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,933	Freedom of religion is closely related to freedom of conscience and freedom of worship. Religious belief is often at the core of a person's identity, unlike, say, a favorite television show (yes, there are exceptions). The problem for non-theists is that a lack of belief in a god or gods would be completely meaningless, much like a lack of belief in dragons or pixies, if not for the fact that a lot of people believe in god(s). Atheist meetings are conducted by an large to sneer, perhaps sharpen arguments, but mostly to meet like-minded people (in my experience). Maybe religious gatherings are brought together for essentially the same purposes, but formally doing as God says, glorifying "Him," and so on. That said, the atheists should probably get their meeting because the world is a messy place.
	__________________ *Arrested Development* is coming back! Michael (to GOB): Get rid of the Seaward. Lucille: I’ll leave when I’m good and ready.

23rd September 2007, 06:37 AM	#8
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,533	Originally Posted by cgordon The lawsuit filed Monday in federal court alleges a pattern of practices that discriminate against non-Christians in the military. If he means the military in general, that's about as laughable as "the military is racist" bits which people have tried to pull in their boneheaded attempts to whine/get their way regardless of logic/etc. While specific individuals in the military may be racist (or bigoted religiously) in any given case, the military itself is pointedly and explicitly anything but, and goes out of its way to make sure this is so and people know it's so. It's not just "CYA" either; they mean it. Then again this is an Army puke we're talking about, so stupid should be expected. My guess is it was closing time @ the MWR but he wanted to stay and they booted him out.

23rd September 2007, 07:51 AM	#9
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by pgwenthold It's not. His objection in this case is that he is being required to have religion in order to use the facilities. He is arguing that the policy infringes on his freedom to not have a religion because his group is denied privelidges that religious groups get. I believe the US Supreme Court has ruled that atheism is a religion in the sense that atheist beliefs enjoy the same First Ammendment protection as "religous" beliefs. This would be an interesting case -- with that interpretation, it would definitely be wrong for the military to restrict use of those "religion" rooms from atheists having atheist discussions.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

23rd September 2007, 11:44 AM	#10
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	It's interesting that today soldiers try to get around orders by suing their commanders.
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24th September 2007, 07:37 AM	#11
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi It's interesting that today soldiers try to get around orders by suing their commanders. ... as is appropriate when commanders exceed their lawful authority and issue unlawful orders. What will you do when your commander tells you to torture and execute POWs?

24th September 2007, 09:30 AM	#12
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	I'm not sure disallowing use of a room for a private meeting is the same as ordering someone to torture and execute POWs.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

24th September 2007, 09:44 AM	#13
Miss Anthrope All your post are belong to us Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: A Tiny Oasis in the PNW Posts: 3,597	I think the meat of the case lies here: Quote: According to the filing, Spc. Jeremy Hall received permission to distribute flyers around his base in Iraq for a meeting of atheists and non-Christians. When he tried to convene the meeting, Hall said, Maj. Paul Welborne stepped in, threatening to file military charges against Hall and block his re-enlistment. Quote: The lawsuit claims Hall was forced to “submit to a religious test as a qualification to his post as a soldier.” Hall and the foundation are asking the court to block Welborne from establishing “compulsory religious practices” and order Gates to prevent Welborne from interfering with Hall’s free speech rights This is about a lot more than the use of facilities.
	__________________ We're not elected officials, nor are we paid professionals. You want us to act as such? Fine. Cough up the cash - because as a professional, I don't come cheap."-Jmercer, who happens to rock.[/color]

24th September 2007, 12:43 PM	#14
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,533	Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi I'm not sure disallowing use of a room for a private meeting is the same as ordering someone to torture and execute POWs. ya think? PS suing one's commander is not 'appropriate' - in fact it's "N/A" and absurd. This is the military, which is quite different than the civilian world in various ways. More appropriate is not to follow the order and/or report it to one's supervisor and/or his commander's superior.

24th September 2007, 01:59 PM	#15
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	Originally Posted by Miss Anthrope I think the meat of the case lies here: Ah. Still - there's a protocol to follow, and I'm not convinced it was followed here. If you're given an illegal order, then you follow up the order-giver's chain of command until you get the results you want.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 Last edited by Checkmite; 24th September 2007 at 02:02 PM.