Fashion chain withdraws swastika handbags

Safe-Keeper · 22nd September 2007, 02:40 PM

The fashion chain Zara has withdrawn handbags adorned with light green swastikas (see below image) after an avalanche of complaints. I am reminded, as I am so often when cases like this come up, of Harry Potter's amazement whenever one of the wizard world characters he encounters tries to keep him from saying the evil antagonist Voldemort's name out loud. Do they not sound cowardly? Have you not at least once been amused by how people jump and express indignation each time the name is uttered by Harry Potter?

Are we any better than them? The Swastika has been around since the time of the Hittites, and is now found in many countries as a sacred symbol. It is the Holy symbol of Buddhism, a religion of a billion adherents. And we fear it and hate it as if our cultures depended on it. There is a determined effort by Western society to hold onto the evil of the swastika.

What annoys me here is that all too often when cases such as this one comes up, the symbol in question is not even a Nazi swastika. The Nazis' symbol of trade was black, stood on edge, and was usually found in a white circle on a red background. The 'Zara swastika', on the other hand, was light green in a white circle decorated with pink 'spikes'. I doubt anyone ever saw such imagery on anything that found its way to the front lines in World War II.

As Dumbledore said, how are we to defeat him when we dare not even utter his name? Say 'Voldemort' with me. Say it out loud, and it will lose its power.

An evil Nazi handbag. But I refuse to be scared.

TragicMonkey · 22nd September 2007, 02:45 PM

That is one butt-ugly bag. I'm surprised people were able to look at it long enough to even notice the swastikas.

Gravy · 22nd September 2007, 03:26 PM

I do think it's too early to mount a "give the swastika a chance" campaign. To the vast majority of westerners it doesn't matter that it's a religious symbol for others. It became the symbol of something almost unimaginably abhorrent. I don't blame people for thinking that its use is insensitive. The article doesn't say where the bags are made. Inditex is a Spanish company but it sounds as if it may have connections to India.

TX50 · 22nd September 2007, 03:49 PM

I was surprised recently to discover that a war memorial in the grounds of
Balmoral castle in Scotland (erected after the end of WW2) has swastika
devices on it. A small plaque notes that the swastika is there used as a celtic
symbol but it still looked incongruous in that context (to modern eyes).

fuelair · 22nd September 2007, 03:56 PM

Even at least one tribe of American Indians used it as a symbol - - it even appeared on a peace-pipe in an episode of the TV Rin-Tin-Tin and possibly on the Superman tests for chief TV episode (I am not sure on that one).

Ian Osborne · 22nd September 2007, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

I do think it's too early to mount a "give the swastika a chance" campaign. To the vast majority of westerners it doesn't matter that it's a religious symbol for others. It became the symbol of something almost unimaginably abhorrent. I don't blame people for thinking that its use is insensitive. The article doesn't say where the bags are made. Inditex is a Spanish company but it sounds as if it may have connections to India.

Quite. It might well have been used since the Hittites, but this isn't ancient Israel, it's modern Europe, and whether we like it or not, the swastika symbol will invoke associations with the nazis.

I'm reminded of Italian footballer Paolo Di Canio who gave a straight-armed salute on the football pitch, claiming it was a 'Roman salute'. He was quite correct historically, but if he thinks he can do that on a 20th century soccer pitch without aligning himself with Hitler, he's a fool.

LordoftheLeftHand · 22nd September 2007, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Even at least one tribe of American Indians used it as a symbol - - it even appeared on a peace-pipe in an episode of the TV Rin-Tin-Tin and possibly on the Superman tests for chief TV episode (I am not sure on that one).

It was also used in Japan. I remember seeing a piece of samurai armor with it (or maybe it was a mirror image, with the arms bent the other way; I can't remember).

LLH

Puppycow · 22nd September 2007, 04:27 PM

On maps in Japan it is often the symbol that indicates the location of a temple.

Nick Bogaerts · 22nd September 2007, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Are we any better than them? The Swastika has been around since the time of the Hittites, and is now found in many countries as a sacred symbol. It is the Holy symbol of Buddhism, a religion of a billion adherents.

Hinduism, Jainism, and the 'three religions'-- Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism have a legitimate claim to the term Swastika. It is a bit of a misnomer for other cultures which came up with the same cross symbol independently. (The Nazi Hakenkreuz, however, is a Swastika)

Quote:

And we fear it and hate it as if our cultures depended on it. There is a determined effort by Western society to hold onto the evil of the swastika.

Except for the Finnish Air Force, which is determined to hold on to its blue Swastika, since they also claim, quite correctly, to have been adopted it long before the Nazis (despite being a nominal ally of Germany during the Continuation War).

Lisa Simpson · 22nd September 2007, 04:44 PM

A case of mistaken swastika identity happened at a cemetery near my home. This is an article written about an article that appeared in the Orange County Register:

Quote:

A week earlier, a woman who lives in Midway City finally gave in to an uncontrollable impulse of hate, entered the cemetery grounds, and destroyed an offending grave marker there. She had seen it several times through the fence while walking by. A swastika, right in plain sight, an intolerable affront to the sensibilities any decent person.

After she committed this crime, it was initially written up by columnist Bill Johnson in a manner that struck some as sympathetic to the act. Then the twist came to light. Quoting from his column of June 16:

"Van. Van. Van. Van. ...

I have been up at the blackboard for more than 24 hours now, and I can't go back to my desk until I write it another hundred times. It's to teach me, once and for all, the difference between the hated symbol of the National Socialist Party of Germany and the ancient Buddhist religious sign meaning "enlightenment."

Van. Van. Van. Van. ...

Of course, I am not serving out a sentence at a blackboard. It just has felt that way the past few days since I wrote here of a Midway City woman who spotted a Buddhist swastika in a Westminster cemetery, mistook it for a Nazi swastika, and destroyed it.

Scores of people have written and telephoned to say it likely was a van that was destroyed, and not the German swastika. Some said the column condoned grave desecration. That is nonsense. Others called to point out the woman's likely mistake. And that's what I truly think it was. ..."

timhau · 22nd September 2007, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Nick Bogaerts

Except for the Finnish Air Force, which is determined to hold on to its blue Swastika, since they also claim, quite correctly, to have been adopted it long before the Nazis (despite being a nominal ally of Germany during the Continuation War).

It is only used in medals and heraldry nowadays; ever since 1945, they've used the round blue-and-white symbol you can see on the side and wings of these planes. The heraldric swastika looks IMO quite a bit different from the one the Nazis used; see e.g. the one in the upper left hand corner of the Presidential Standard.

ETA: I've been told (but have never verified) that the synagogue in my home town (Turku) is the only one in the world which still has ornamental swastikas on the inside. Some of the local Jewish congregation wanted to remove them during or after WWII, but the decision was that "they were there before anyone had ever heard of the Nazis, and they'll still be there when nobody remembers them anymore". I'm not sure I would have agreed with that if I was Jewish myself, but there's something really appealing about the answer.

Oliver · 22nd September 2007, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

The fashion chain Zara has withdrawn handbags adorned with light green swastikas (see below image) after an avalanche of complaints. *snip*

[Emphasis mine]

I don't know where you grew up, but this is exactly how
it works in a free market/democracy/capitalistic society.
What's the fuss about?

Remember the China Toys recalls in the last weeks?
Economically the same thing.

Wildy · 23rd September 2007, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

I don't know where you grew up, but this is exactly how
it works in a free market/democracy/capitalistic society.
What's the fuss about?

What, people complain and get their way? Is that really what a democracy is? Would you say that a Buddhist or a Hindu from using the symbol because it might insult someone?

Quote:

Remember the China Toys recalls in the last weeks?
Economically the same thing.

How is it economically the same thing? The China toys contained products that were a health hazard.

geni · 23rd September 2007, 02:16 AM

Whats odd is that as we get further from WW2 we appear to be becomeing more sensertive.

Francesca R · 23rd September 2007, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by Wildy

How is it economically the same thing? The China toys contained products that were a health hazard.

It means that companies change their policies if it's good for business to do so / bad for business not to do so.

It has nothing to do with democracy, though.

jsiv · 23rd September 2007, 02:48 AM

Come on.

I don't necessarily fault the people that made it, but in this part of the world the symbol really doesn't have any widespread traditional use and will forever be tainted and a symbol of Nazism and nothing else. The same can be said for names like Quisling or Hitler, which will never again be used.

Personally I don't think there needs to be any sort of campaign to "take the swastika back," as we never really had it to begin with. Let it go.

That they withdrew it is a good thing and capitalism in effect. There is no demand for this product, and no chance of it ever being marketable (again, in this part of the world.)

CptColumbo · 23rd September 2007, 02:50 AM

I would pull it from the shelves, or not stock it in the first place, because it's ugly.

My satchel has a logo from "Hellboy" on it. I think some people think it's a symbol for some hate group, and stare at it. One person did ask me what it represented and laughed when I told him. "Oh, I remember that movie."

Rinky · 23rd September 2007, 03:12 AM

Years ago I had a pen pal from India, and once on my birthday she sent me a sort of bracelet that had a swastika on it. I thanked her for the gift and never ever wore it in public... For her it was a positive traditional symbol, for me it screamed nazism and I would have been in trouble for wearing it.

plumjam · 23rd September 2007, 03:37 AM

Zara must be over the moon about the (possibly unintentional) free publicity bonanza.
Given that no one is seriously asserting that Zara has Nazi sympathies, it's an advertising master stroke.
Don't be surprised if this kind of thing catches on.

andyandy · 23rd September 2007, 04:47 AM

isn't the nazi symbol different to the buddhist design? The bag design would appear to be the "nazi" version rather than the version one sees in japan and elsewhere....

the ends rotate in a different manner..

Safe-Keeper · 23rd September 2007, 11:10 AM

Quote:

I don't know where you grew up, but this is exactly how
it works in a free market/democracy/capitalistic society.
What's the fuss about?

The fuss is about the fact that they are immature enough to complain in the first place.

Quote:

I don't necessarily fault the people that made it, but in this part of the world the symbol really doesn't have any widespread traditional use and will forever be tainted and a symbol of Nazism and nothing else. The same can be said for names like Quisling or Hitler, which will never again be used.

Quisling and Hitler very likely will very likely never again be used as they do not see the widespread use the swastika does in the rest of the world. The swastika is different as it is still in use in many other parts of the world.

Quote:

Personally I don't think there needs to be any sort of campaign to "take the swastika back," as we never really had it to begin with. Let it go.

The Europeans have used the swastika for thousands of years.

Cylinder · 23rd September 2007, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by andyandy

isn't the nazi symbol different to the buddhist design? The bag design would appear to be the "nazi" version rather than the version one sees in japan and elsewhere....

the ends rotate in a different manner..

Yup - the Nazi icon is a "moving" swastika. It is rotated 45 degrees.

Ian Osborne · 23rd September 2007, 11:51 PM

Yes, but you can hardly ignore the association simply because it's not an exact match. Would you say this doesn't represent the American flag because the real one isn't in the shape of Mickey Mouse?

Ranb · 24th September 2007, 12:54 AM

I was paging through a book on Lindbergh's flight from NY to Paris. The Ryan Aircraft employees who built the Spirit if St Louis all signed their names inside the propeller spinner. A swastika was also painted on the inside. It was a message of good luck prior to Lindbergh's Atlantic crossing as the swastika was a popular good luck charm and symbol with early aviators (or so the book says).

Ranb

TragicMonkey · 24th September 2007, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ranb

I was paging through a book on Lindbergh's flight from NY to Paris. The Ryan Aircraft employees who built the Spirit if St Louis all signed their names inside the propeller spinner. A swastika was also painted on the inside. It was a message of good luck prior to Lindbergh's Atlantic crossing as the swastika was a popular good luck charm and symbol with early aviators (or so the book says).

And on the other hand, Lindbergh had always sailed a little too near the wind of Nazism. Whether he actually was a Nazi sympathizer is impossible to tell at this point because his political enemies made sure to spread the rumors far and wide. Which doesn't mean, of course, that those rumors were false. Some of his actions and statements were questionable. It sort of tainted the rest of his life. Well, that and the kidnapping.

The Painter · 24th September 2007, 03:35 AM

Is this wrong?

timhau · 24th September 2007, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by The Painter

Is this wrong?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...h_4a305947.png

Yes. They're an abomination. Nazis are pretty nasty too.

Francesca R · 24th September 2007, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by plumjam

Zara must be over the moon about the (possibly unintentional) free publicity bonanza.
Given that no one is seriously asserting that Zara has Nazi sympathies, it's an advertising master stroke.

Agree absolutely

ImaginalDisc · 24th September 2007, 06:56 AM

That is an intolerable symbol of evil!

By which, of course, I refer to the twin-assed giraffe. It's like the antithesis of a pushme-pullyou.

Francesca R · 24th September 2007, 07:07 AM

Hmmm, yes. Also, has the left one had a bowel-movement there? Oh, the vagiaries of fashion. . .

sackett · 24th September 2007, 08:21 AM

During the Continuation War, the Finns had good reason to put that (rather half-hearted looking) blue Hakenkreuz on their planes and tanks: they didn't want to get zapped by their "co-belligerents."

One of the many things I've got agains the Nazis is their filthying that good old symbol. Millenia must pass before it can be used innocently.

ponderingturtle · 24th September 2007, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Whats odd is that as we get further from WW2 we appear to be becomeing more sensertive.

Likely because as similar symbols fall into disfavor because of their visual connection to the Nazi symbol, few people see swastika's in any context other than as a connection to the Nazi's.

ImaginalDisc · 24th September 2007, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Likely because as similar symbols fall into disfavor because of their visual connection to the Nazi symbol, few people see swastika's in any context other than as a connection to the Nazi's.

If only the Luftwaffe's cross had been similarly tarnished.

madurobob · 24th September 2007, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by acuity

It means that companies change their policies if it's good for business to do so / bad for business not to do so.

It has nothing to do with democracy, though.

Of course. If those butt-ugly bags had been flying off the shelves at 1K a pop I doubt they would have eliminated the line. But, with marginal sales and people complaining its stoopid not to give in.

Still, its funny how everyone was "shocked!" to find the symbol after the fact. I mean, its right out there - not hidden at all. Who are they trying to kid?

Publicity stunt?

Ranb · 24th September 2007, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

If only the Luftwaffe's cross had been similarly tarnished.

Wasn't Nazi party membership prohibited to professional military officers in the 1930's and early 40's?

Ranb

Beerina · 24th September 2007, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

http://e24.no/multimedia/archive/006...9__609288v.jpg

That is an intolerable symbol of evil!

By which, of course, I refer to the twin-assed giraffe. It's like the antithesis of a pushme-pullyou.

Well, the pushme-pullyou has a problem: Out whose mouth goes the (waste material)? This creature suffers no such problem.

Francesca R · 24th September 2007, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by madurobob

Publicity stunt?

"Publicity stunt" is a fairly good description of the fashion business, after all. The prize is in large part to win the battle for attention. When observers perceive that to be too blatant or transparent they often complain about it.

ImaginalDisc · 24th September 2007, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Well, the pushme-pullyou has a problem: Out whose mouth goes the (waste material)? This creature suffers no such problem.

Yes, yes. Sight, hearing, eating, and breathing are just problems compared to the joys of having two asses.

Corsair 115 · 24th September 2007, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Sight, hearing, eating, and breathing are blessings problems compared to the joys of having two asses.

Hey, wait until you've seen Dr. Mephisto's eight-assed turtle!

tkingdoll · 24th September 2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

And we fear it and hate it as if our cultures depended on it.

This is the point, Safe-keeper. You said it yourself. We do in fact hate and fear it, and what it represents, so therefore it's not suitable to be put on a bag.

It's perfectly rational to say "the Nazis were one of the worst things to happen to modern society, I don't want to look at swastikas thanks".

22nd September 2007, 02:40 PM	#1
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,112	Fashion chain withdraws swastika handbags The fashion chain Zara has withdrawn handbags adorned with light green swastikas (see below image) after an avalanche of complaints. I am reminded, as I am so often when cases like this come up, of Harry Potter's amazement whenever one of the wizard world characters he encounters tries to keep him from saying the evil antagonist Voldemort's name out loud. Do they not sound cowardly? Have you not at least once been amused by how people jump and express indignation each time the name is uttered by Harry Potter? Are we any better than them? The Swastika has been around since the time of the Hittites, and is now found in many countries as a sacred symbol. It is the Holy symbol of Buddhism, a religion of a billion adherents. And we fear it and hate it as if our cultures depended on it. There is a determined effort by Western society to hold onto the evil of the swastika. What annoys me here is that all too often when cases such as this one comes up, the symbol in question is not even a Nazi swastika. The Nazis' symbol of trade was black, stood on edge, and was usually found in a white circle on a red background. The 'Zara swastika', on the other hand, was light green in a white circle decorated with pink 'spikes'. I doubt anyone ever saw such imagery on anything that found its way to the front lines in World War II. As Dumbledore said, how are we to defeat him when we dare not even utter his name? Say 'Voldemort' with me. Say it out loud, and it will lose its power. An evil Nazi handbag. But I refuse to be scared.

22nd September 2007, 02:45 PM	#2
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,086	That is one butt-ugly bag. I'm surprised people were able to look at it long enough to even notice the swastikas.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

22nd September 2007, 03:26 PM	#3
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	I do think it's too early to mount a "give the swastika a chance" campaign. To the vast majority of westerners it doesn't matter that it's a religious symbol for others. It became the symbol of something almost unimaginably abhorrent. I don't blame people for thinking that its use is insensitive. The article doesn't say where the bags are made. Inditex is a Spanish company but it sounds as if it may have connections to India.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

22nd September 2007, 03:49 PM	#4
TX50 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,555	I was surprised recently to discover that a war memorial in the grounds of Balmoral castle in Scotland (erected after the end of WW2) has swastika devices on it. A small plaque notes that the swastika is there used as a celtic symbol but it still looked incongruous in that context (to modern eyes).
TX50 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,555

22nd September 2007, 03:56 PM	#5
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,954	Even at least one tribe of American Indians used it as a symbol - - it even appeared on a peace-pipe in an episode of the TV Rin-Tin-Tin and possibly on the Superman tests for chief TV episode (I am not sure on that one).
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,954

22nd September 2007, 03:59 PM	#6
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 6,383	Originally Posted by Gravy I do think it's too early to mount a "give the swastika a chance" campaign. To the vast majority of westerners it doesn't matter that it's a religious symbol for others. It became the symbol of something almost unimaginably abhorrent. I don't blame people for thinking that its use is insensitive. The article doesn't say where the bags are made. Inditex is a Spanish company but it sounds as if it may have connections to India. Quite. It might well have been used since the Hittites, but this isn't ancient Israel, it's modern Europe, and whether we like it or not, the swastika symbol will invoke associations with the nazis. I'm reminded of Italian footballer Paolo Di Canio who gave a straight-armed salute on the football pitch, claiming it was a 'Roman salute'. He was quite correct historically, but if he thinks he can do that on a 20th century soccer pitch without aligning himself with Hitler, he's a fool.
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

22nd September 2007, 04:21 PM	#7
LordoftheLeftHand Dominus Sinistrae Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,186	Originally Posted by fuelair Even at least one tribe of American Indians used it as a symbol - - it even appeared on a peace-pipe in an episode of the TV Rin-Tin-Tin and possibly on the Superman tests for chief TV episode (I am not sure on that one). It was also used in Japan. I remember seeing a piece of samurai armor with it (or maybe it was a mirror image, with the arms bent the other way; I can't remember). LLH
	__________________ What though the field be lost? All is not lost—the unconquerable will, And study of revenge, immortal hate, And courage never to submit or yield - Milton, Paradise Lost

22nd September 2007, 04:27 PM	#8
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,766	On maps in Japan it is often the symbol that indicates the location of a temple.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

22nd September 2007, 04:30 PM	#9
Nick Bogaerts Muse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Didcot, Oxfordshire Posts: 617	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper Are we any better than them? The Swastika has been around since the time of the Hittites, and is now found in many countries as a sacred symbol. It is the Holy symbol of Buddhism, a religion of a billion adherents. Hinduism, Jainism, and the 'three religions'-- Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism have a legitimate claim to the term Swastika. It is a bit of a misnomer for other cultures which came up with the same cross symbol independently. (The Nazi Hakenkreuz, however, is a Swastika) Quote: And we fear it and hate it as if our cultures depended on it. There is a determined effort by Western society to hold onto the evil of the swastika. Except for the Finnish Air Force, which is determined to hold on to its blue Swastika, since they also claim, quite correctly, to have been adopted it long before the Nazis (despite being a nominal ally of Germany during the Continuation War).
	__________________ Oh, and when the last law was down, and the devil turned on you, where would you hide, Roper, all the laws being flat? This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast, man's laws not God's, and if you cut them down—and you're just the man to do it—do you really think that you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the devil the benefit of the law, for my own safety's sake. —Robert Bolt, A Man For All Seasons

22nd September 2007, 04:44 PM	#10
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,061	A case of mistaken swastika identity happened at a cemetery near my home. This is an article written about an article that appeared in the Orange County Register: Quote: A week earlier, a woman who lives in Midway City finally gave in to an uncontrollable impulse of hate, entered the cemetery grounds, and destroyed an offending grave marker there. She had seen it several times through the fence while walking by. A swastika, right in plain sight, an intolerable affront to the sensibilities any decent person. After she committed this crime, it was initially written up by columnist Bill Johnson in a manner that struck some as sympathetic to the act. Then the twist came to light. Quoting from his column of June 16: "Van. Van. Van. Van. ... I have been up at the blackboard for more than 24 hours now, and I can't go back to my desk until I write it another hundred times. It's to teach me, once and for all, the difference between the hated symbol of the National Socialist Party of Germany and the ancient Buddhist religious sign meaning "enlightenment." Van. Van. Van. Van. ... Of course, I am not serving out a sentence at a blackboard. It just has felt that way the past few days since I wrote here of a Midway City woman who spotted a Buddhist swastika in a Westminster cemetery, mistook it for a Nazi swastika, and destroyed it. Scores of people have written and telephoned to say it likely was a van that was destroyed, and not the German swastika. Some said the column condoned grave desecration. That is nonsense. Others called to point out the woman's likely mistake. And that's what I truly think it was. ..."
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

22nd September 2007, 10:02 PM	#11
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,672	Originally Posted by Nick Bogaerts Except for the Finnish Air Force, which is determined to hold on to its blue Swastika, since they also claim, quite correctly, to have been adopted it long before the Nazis (despite being a nominal ally of Germany during the Continuation War). It is only used in medals and heraldry nowadays; ever since 1945, they've used the round blue-and-white symbol you can see on the side and wings of these planes. The heraldric swastika looks IMO quite a bit different from the one the Nazis used; see e.g. the one in the upper left hand corner of the Presidential Standard. ETA: I've been told (but have never verified) that the synagogue in my home town (Turku) is the only one in the world which still has ornamental swastikas on the inside. Some of the local Jewish congregation wanted to remove them during or after WWII, but the decision was that "they were there before anyone had ever heard of the Nazis, and they'll still be there when nobody remembers them anymore". I'm not sure I would have agreed with that if I was Jewish myself, but there's something really appealing about the answer.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips Last edited by timhau; 22nd September 2007 at 10:07 PM.

22nd September 2007, 10:56 PM	#12
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper The fashion chain Zara has withdrawn handbags adorned with light green swastikas (see below image) after an avalanche of complaints. snip [Emphasis mine] I don't know where you grew up, but this is exactly how it works in a free market/democracy/capitalistic society. What's the fuss about? Remember the China Toys recalls in the last weeks? Economically the same thing.

23rd September 2007, 01:49 AM	#13
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field. Posts: 9,922	Originally Posted by Oliver I don't know where you grew up, but this is exactly how it works in a free market/democracy/capitalistic society. What's the fuss about? What, people complain and get their way? Is that really what a democracy is? Would you say that a Buddhist or a Hindu from using the symbol because it might insult someone? Quote: Remember the China Toys recalls in the last weeks? Economically the same thing. How is it economically the same thing? The China toys contained products that were a health hazard.

23rd September 2007, 02:16 AM	#14
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,570	Whats odd is that as we get further from WW2 we appear to be becomeing more sensertive.

23rd September 2007, 02:41 AM	#15
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,825	Originally Posted by Wildy How is it economically the same thing? The China toys contained products that were a health hazard. It means that companies change their policies if it's good for business to do so / bad for business not to do so. It has nothing to do with democracy, though.

23rd September 2007, 02:48 AM	#16
jsiv King of Svalbard Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Bortenfor alle blåner Posts: 4,492	Come on. I don't necessarily fault the people that made it, but in this part of the world the symbol really doesn't have any widespread traditional use and will forever be tainted and a symbol of Nazism and nothing else. The same can be said for names like Quisling or Hitler, which will never again be used. Personally I don't think there needs to be any sort of campaign to "take the swastika back," as we never really had it to begin with. Let it go. That they withdrew it is a good thing and capitalism in effect. There is no demand for this product, and no chance of it ever being marketable (again, in this part of the world.)
	__________________ Panama er landet eg drøymer om!

23rd September 2007, 02:50 AM	#17
CptColumbo Just One More Question Join Date: May 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 9,130	I would pull it from the shelves, or not stock it in the first place, because it's ugly. My satchel has a logo from "Hellboy" on it. I think some people think it's a symbol for some hate group, and stare at it. One person did ask me what it represented and laughed when I told him. "Oh, I remember that movie."
	__________________ I've been involved in a lot of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader.--Creed, "The Office" The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be only found in the minds of men. Prejudices and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own.--Rod Serling

23rd September 2007, 03:12 AM	#18
Rinky Thinker Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 200	Years ago I had a pen pal from India, and once on my birthday she sent me a sort of bracelet that had a swastika on it. I thanked her for the gift and never ever wore it in public... For her it was a positive traditional symbol, for me it screamed nazism and I would have been in trouble for wearing it.

23rd September 2007, 03:37 AM	#19
plumjam Banned Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Valencia, Spain Posts: 7,837	Zara must be over the moon about the (possibly unintentional) free publicity bonanza. Given that no one is seriously asserting that Zara has Nazi sympathies, it's an advertising master stroke. Don't be surprised if this kind of thing catches on.

23rd September 2007, 04:47 AM	#20
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,192	isn't the nazi symbol different to the buddhist design? The bag design would appear to be the "nazi" version rather than the version one sees in japan and elsewhere.... the ends rotate in a different manner..
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

23rd September 2007, 11:10 AM	#21
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,112	Quote: I don't know where you grew up, but this is exactly how it works in a free market/democracy/capitalistic society. What's the fuss about? The fuss is about the fact that they are immature enough to complain in the first place. Quote: I don't necessarily fault the people that made it, but in this part of the world the symbol really doesn't have any widespread traditional use and will forever be tainted and a symbol of Nazism and nothing else. The same can be said for names like Quisling or Hitler, which will never again be used. Quisling and Hitler very likely will very likely never again be used as they do not see the widespread use the swastika does in the rest of the world. The swastika is different as it is still in use in many other parts of the world. Quote: Personally I don't think there needs to be any sort of campaign to "take the swastika back," as we never really had it to begin with. Let it go. The Europeans have used the swastika for thousands of years.

23rd September 2007, 11:07 PM	#22
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,860	Originally Posted by andyandy isn't the nazi symbol different to the buddhist design? The bag design would appear to be the "nazi" version rather than the version one sees in japan and elsewhere.... the ends rotate in a different manner.. Yup - the Nazi icon is a "moving" swastika. It is rotated 45 degrees.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

23rd September 2007, 11:51 PM	#23
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 6,383	Yes, but you can hardly ignore the association simply because it's not an exact match. Would you say this doesn't represent the American flag because the real one isn't in the shape of Mickey Mouse?
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

24th September 2007, 12:54 AM	#24
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,114	I was paging through a book on Lindbergh's flight from NY to Paris. The Ryan Aircraft employees who built the Spirit if St Louis all signed their names inside the propeller spinner. A swastika was also painted on the inside. It was a message of good luck prior to Lindbergh's Atlantic crossing as the swastika was a popular good luck charm and symbol with early aviators (or so the book says). Ranb

24th September 2007, 02:38 AM	#25
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,086	Originally Posted by Ranb I was paging through a book on Lindbergh's flight from NY to Paris. The Ryan Aircraft employees who built the Spirit if St Louis all signed their names inside the propeller spinner. A swastika was also painted on the inside. It was a message of good luck prior to Lindbergh's Atlantic crossing as the swastika was a popular good luck charm and symbol with early aviators (or so the book says). And on the other hand, Lindbergh had always sailed a little too near the wind of Nazism. Whether he actually was a Nazi sympathizer is impossible to tell at this point because his political enemies made sure to spread the rumors far and wide. Which doesn't mean, of course, that those rumors were false. Some of his actions and statements were questionable. It sort of tainted the rest of his life. Well, that and the kidnapping.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

24th September 2007, 03:35 AM	#26
The Painter Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New York Posts: 2,656	Is this wrong?

24th September 2007, 04:32 AM	#27
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,672	Originally Posted by The Painter Is this wrong? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...h_4a305947.png Yes. They're an abomination. Nazis are pretty nasty too.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

24th September 2007, 06:24 AM	#28
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,825	Originally Posted by plumjam Zara must be over the moon about the (possibly unintentional) free publicity bonanza. Given that no one is seriously asserting that Zara has Nazi sympathies, it's an advertising master stroke. Agree absolutely

24th September 2007, 06:56 AM	#29
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	That is an intolerable symbol of evil! By which, of course, I refer to the twin-assed giraffe. It's like the antithesis of a pushme-pullyou.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

24th September 2007, 07:07 AM	#30
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,825	Hmmm, yes. Also, has the left one had a bowel-movement there? Oh, the vagiaries of fashion. . .

24th September 2007, 08:21 AM	#31
sackett Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 3,618	During the Continuation War, the Finns had good reason to put that (rather half-hearted looking) blue Hakenkreuz on their planes and tanks: they didn't want to get zapped by their "co-belligerents." One of the many things I've got agains the Nazis is their filthying that good old symbol. Millenia must pass before it can be used innocently.
	__________________ Dyslexic and prond!

24th September 2007, 08:33 AM	#32
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,425	Originally Posted by geni Whats odd is that as we get further from WW2 we appear to be becomeing more sensertive. Likely because as similar symbols fall into disfavor because of their visual connection to the Nazi symbol, few people see swastika's in any context other than as a connection to the Nazi's.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

24th September 2007, 08:42 AM	#33
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Likely because as similar symbols fall into disfavor because of their visual connection to the Nazi symbol, few people see swastika's in any context other than as a connection to the Nazi's. If only the Luftwaffe's cross had been similarly tarnished.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

24th September 2007, 08:54 AM	#34
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven, NC Posts: 5,546	Originally Posted by acuity It means that companies change their policies if it's good for business to do so / bad for business not to do so. It has nothing to do with democracy, though. Of course. If those butt-ugly bags had been flying off the shelves at 1K a pop I doubt they would have eliminated the line. But, with marginal sales and people complaining its stoopid not to give in. Still, its funny how everyone was "shocked!" to find the symbol after the fact. I mean, its right out there - not hidden at all. Who are they trying to kid? Publicity stunt?
	__________________ Insert witty phrase or out of context post by another member here.

24th September 2007, 09:38 AM	#35
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,114	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc If only the Luftwaffe's cross had been similarly tarnished. Wasn't Nazi party membership prohibited to professional military officers in the 1930's and early 40's? Ranb