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EGarrett · 22nd September 2007, 10:16 PM

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=efe_1190512037

Originally Posted by That guy

Israel isn't worth an American life or an American dollar.

That's funny, because if it wasn't for other countries aiding the cause of freedom and democracy, we wouldn't even HAVE an "America"...

France played a key role in aiding the revolution, providing the Americans with money and munitions, organizing a coalition against Britain, and sending an army and a fleet that played a decisive role at the battle that effectively ended the war at Yorktown.

In fact, I think this guy is pretty much full of **** on this particular topic. You have to actively promote and defend freedom and democracy. You can't adopt the "First they came for my neighbor, and I did nothing" policy. That's of course, plainly stupid.

WildCat · 23rd September 2007, 06:30 AM

Wow, Scheuer really shows his ignorance in that clip. In his view, all we need to do is give Islamic extremists everything they want and they'll leave us alone. Apparently, Scheuer either dismisses or ignores the long-term goal of a new world-wide Caliphate.

Beerina · 23rd September 2007, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Wow, Scheuer really shows his ignorance in that clip. In his view, all we need to do is give Islamic extremists everything they want and they'll leave us alone.

Why not? It worked with Hitler.

JoeEllison · 23rd September 2007, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Wow, Scheuer really shows his ignorance in that clip. In his view, all we need to do is give Islamic extremists everything they want and they'll leave us alone. Apparently, Scheuer either dismisses or ignores the long-term goal of a new world-wide Caliphate.

Well, he's right to dismiss it... probably the only thing he was right about. Or, do you really think that there's a threat that Islamic extremists will take over the world by blowing up a couple of buildings every few years?

JoeEllison · 23rd September 2007, 06:59 AM

Oh, and let's be fair here... the guy isn't being anti-Israel, he's being extremely isolationist. He's still wrong, but wrong for a different reason.

Undesired Walrus · 23rd September 2007, 08:00 AM

Whilst Scheuer is being bigoted and full of a whole lot of non-sensical face hair in this article, I think it is a shame some rational people do not stand against the reckless actions of Israel.

That and the terrible image it has made of liberal democracy in the Middle East.

Also, he wasn't the head of the CIA.

dudalb · 23rd September 2007, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by JoeEllison

Well, he's right to dismiss it... probably the only thing he was right about. Or, do you really think that there's a threat that Islamic extremists will take over the world by blowing up a couple of buildings every few years?

So nice to see you make light about the three thousand people who dies on 9/11.

yairhol · 23rd September 2007, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Whilst Scheuer is being bigoted and full of a whole lot of non-sensical face hair in this article, I think it is a shame some rational people do not stand against the reckless actions of Israel.

That and the terrible image it has made of liberal democracy in the Middle East.

Also, he wasn't the head of the CIA.

Right...Israel is the reckless one. Of course. How easy it is to be on the Islamic fanatics' side. Reason has no role in life and hard core religion is the way to go. Was it Muhamad who said that by the power of the sword all shall fall under Islam? Something like that...
and human lives lost are just other people's lives, as long as it's not your own, and I quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeEllison

Well, he's right to dismiss it... probably the only thing he was right about. Or, do you really think that there's a threat that Islamic extremists will take over the world by blowing up a couple of buildings every few years?

So nice to see you make light about the three thousand people who dies on 9/11.

Great. You have learned much from recent world terrors.

PogoPedant · 23rd September 2007, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by That guy

Israel isn't worth (...) an American dollar.

Considering the value of the USD, that's saying quite a lot...

JoeEllison · 23rd September 2007, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

So nice to see you make light about the three thousand people who dies on 9/11.

I didn't do that. Why would you feel obligated to interpret what I posted that way?

JoeEllison · 23rd September 2007, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by yairhol

Great. You have learned much from recent world terrors.

Yep. One of the things I learned is that stupid people will pretend that the whole world is on the brink of destruction, to justify doing the worst things possible. Even though the threat is minimal, they will twist everything to fit the frame of their cowardice and stupidity.

Undesired Walrus · 23rd September 2007, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by yairhol

Right...Israel is the reckless one. Of course. How easy it is to be on the Islamic fanatics' side. Reason has no role in life and hard core religion is the way to go. Was it Muhamad who said that by the power of the sword all shall fall under Islam? Something like that...
and human lives lost are just other people's lives, as long as it's not your own, and I quote:

Since when did I forget the Islamists reckless behaviour? Tell you what, next time I see you, I will stamp a disclaimer on my forhead to point that out for you, or, if it will calm the jumbled nerves and unhook the twisted panties, put it in my signature.

Can't you see how Israel ignoring UNSC's resolution 425 for 22 years isn't the greatest shining light for western democracy and individualistic freedom?

Gravy · 23rd September 2007, 08:21 PM

I never imagined that this thread could degenerate into personal bickering.

David Swidler · 23rd September 2007, 10:50 PM

That's cuz you're just a git.

Ziggurat · 24th September 2007, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by JoeEllison

Well, he's right to dismiss it... probably the only thing he was right about. Or, do you really think that there's a threat that Islamic extremists will take over the world by blowing up a couple of buildings every few years?

You misunderstand the threat. Knocking down the occassional building isn't what would bring them victory. Demographics will do that. The purpose of knocking down the occassional building is to maintain polarization and cultural isolation of those demographics. Europe is on track to become Muslim-majority before the end of the century. If that trend continues and those muslims can be radicalized, then they will have conquered Europe without having to win a single military victory. Terrorist attacks are not a military threat in the conventional sense, but they are absolutely vital to the Islamist strategy of radicalization.

So is this what will happen? Maybe not. But what is Europe doing to ensure it doesn't? They haven't figured that one out yet.

Gurdur · 24th September 2007, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

.... Europe is on track to become Muslim-majority before the end of the century. .....

Uh, no. Not true at all. Any stats at all to back that assertion?

Darth Rotor · 24th September 2007, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by your title

Former CIA Head: "Israel isn't worth an American Dollar."

Dishonest title. Scheuer was the head of the unit concerned with Osama Bin Laden, he was not the CIA's head, nor the head of the CIA. Suggest a correction for clarity.

That said, thanks for the link, it was humorous indeed.

Bill Maher got good mileage out of his conversation with Mr Scheuer.

As to Israel's being worth, or not worth, an American dollar, I think aid to Israel could stand a significant reduction, more along the lines of our assistance to Turkey, a NATO ally in the region, per capita.

Or Egypt, to whom we also provide aid with the intent to promote something good within the region.

We give aid to a lot of countries, the major complaint is the comparative amount given Israel versus others.

Scheuer's cynical comment about "US will do just fine regardless of how many people anywhere else ever vote" has decent historical support.

There is an element of truth to that, but it is a very short sighted point of view.

DR

EGarrett · 24th September 2007, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Dishonest title. Scheuer was the head of the unit concerned with Osama Bin Laden, he was not the CIA's head, nor the head of the CIA.

I didn't say he was the CIA's head, nor did I say he was head OF the CIA. Nonetheless, he was a CIA head, in a major area. When you watch the clip his title is made quite clear.

Quote:

Scheuer's cynical comment about "US will do just fine regardless of how many people anywhere else ever vote" has decent historical support.

If you're going to accuse other people of dishonesty, don't do what you did here. That's not what Scheuer said...you altered the quote so it would sound more reasonable and fit your point.

Darth Rotor · 24th September 2007, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by EGarrett

I didn't say he was the CIA's head, nor did I say he was head OF the CIA. Nonetheless, he was a CIA head, in a major area. When you watch the clip his title is made quite clear.

Stubborn attachment to dishonest headline noted. Your defensiveness is also noted.

Quote:

If you're going to accuse other people of dishonesty, don't do what you did here. That's not what Scheuer said...you altered the quote so it would sound more reasonable and fit your point.

Good point, that quote marks were misleading, so I'll correct my remark, to a paraphrase, not a quote, as it was spoken rather than written.

Scheuer's point, that the US will do just fine regardless of how many people anywhere else ever vote, (from the second half of the video) seems a reference to American having been in bed with a number of autocratic regimes but still doing well enough, as a nation state and a power. While his point holds a grain of truth, it is a short sighted position to take.

See how easy it is to correct an error when someone else points it out to you?

Try it sometime.

DR

EGarrett · 24th September 2007, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Stubborn attachment to dishonest headline noted. Your defensiveness is also noted.

Good point, that quote marks were misleading, so I'll correct my remark, to a paraphrase, not a quote, as it was spoken rather than written.

Right, and you'll acknowledge being a hypocrite also, right?

Quote:

Scheuer's point, that the US will do just fine regardless of how many people anywhere else ever vote, (from the second half of the video) seems a reference to American having been in bed with a number of autocratic regimes but still doing well enough, as a nation state and a power. While his point holds a grain of truth, it is a short sighted position to take.

That's still not what he said. You're still being dishonest.

Darth Rotor · 25th September 2007, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by EGarrett

Right, and you'll acknowledge being a hypocrite also, right?

Quote:

That's still not what he said. You're still being dishonest.

I justy watched the clip again. That is an accurate summary of his point, the interruptions considered. If you have an alternative summary, please share it with me. Perhaps your grasp, from your PoV, will improve my understanding of Mr Scheuer's remarks.

Back to the title.

I note your stubborn insistence on the misleading label, after it is pointed out to you. Your actions show that you are pleased to perpetuate a falsehood. Any pretension that it was an error, or an oversight, is rendered moot by your reaction to correction in detail. This shows you to be willing to defend deliberately misleading information. In some circles it is called false advertising.

Welcome to The Liar's club, population you.

DR

EGarrett · 26th September 2007, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

I justy watched the clip again. That is an accurate summary of his point, the interruptions considered. If you have an alternative summary, please share it with me. Perhaps your grasp, from your PoV, will improve my understanding of Mr Scheuer's remarks.

Back to the title.

I note your stubborn insistence on the misleading label, after it is pointed out to you. Your actions show that you are pleased to perpetuate a falsehood. Any pretension that it was an error, or an oversight, is rendered moot by your reaction to correction in detail. This shows you to be willing to defend deliberately misleading information. In some circles it is called false advertising.

Welcome to The Liar's club, population you.

DR

I asked you if you're going to acknowledge that you're a hypocrite. You're trying to avoid the point. You want to attack others, not politely point out a misleading title, but frame it as dishonesty...but you didn't bother in the least to notice that you're doing the same thing, repeatedly. Yet another sign of how your own lazy thinking and lack of memory fuel your attacks on other members...as I've shown in the past.

Check Scheuer's quote again, it's not nearly as reasonble as you're trying to make it out to be.

Darth Rotor · 26th September 2007, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by EGarrett

Check Scheuer's quote again, it's not nearly as reasonble as you're trying to make it out to be.

Quit evading, please. What do you claim his point is, contra my take on it? Note my comment previous, inviting you to present your take on it for my benefit, and perhaps for benefit of others reading.

Your claiming what it isn't is a useless comment.

DR

strathmeyer · 26th September 2007, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by EGarrett

That's funny, because if it wasn't for other countries aiding the cause of freedom and democracy, we wouldn't even HAVE an "America"...

When we sent money to Osama Bin Laden to fight the Russians, were we "aiding the cause of freedom and democracy"? Or are we unable to correctly parallel situations when they don't suit or agenda?

Darth Rotor · 26th September 2007, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by strathmeyer

When we sent money to Osama Bin Laden to fight the Russians, were we "aiding the cause of freedom and democracy"? Or are we unable to correctly parallel situations when they don't suit or agenda?

If you operate under the paradigm that opposing the USSR is an action in support of freedom and democracy, then yes, we were. If not, then the answer is not as clear.

DR

billydkid · 27th September 2007, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by EGarrett

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=efe_1190512037

That's funny, because if it wasn't for other countries aiding the cause of freedom and democracy, we wouldn't even HAVE an "America"...

France played a key role in aiding the revolution, providing the Americans with money and munitions, organizing a coalition against Britain, and sending an army and a fleet that played a decisive role at the battle that effectively ended the war at Yorktown.

In fact, I think this guy is pretty much full of **** on this particular topic. You have to actively promote and defend freedom and democracy. You can't adopt the "First they came for my neighbor, and I did nothing" policy. That's of course, plainly stupid.

Honestly, I simply think he didn't make his point exactly in the way he meant. Israel is far and away the best armed nation in the region and could demolish any country that threatens it - so there is no need to sacrifice American lives in its defense. And I have asked this question before and I ask it in all sincerity because I honestly don't know. I have to add I am pro-Israel. They are our ally (although they do seem to like to spy on us.) Is Israel really a democracy? Are all the people who live there citizens and do they all have equal civil rights? Again, I support Israel and believe they have every right to defend themselves by whatever means necessary from terrorist attacks.

Ziggurat · 27th September 2007, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by billydkid

Is Israel really a democracy? Are all the people who live there citizens and do they all have equal civil rights?

Israel is definitely a democracy, even if imperfectly so. Not everyone who lives there is a citizen, but that means nothing: every country in the world pretty much has permanent non-citizen residents. Israel does indeed have citizens who are not Jewish, and by law I believe they are supposed to have equal civil rights. That may not work out in practice all the time, but it's closer to reality than in any of Israel's neighbors.

Darth Rotor · 27th September 2007, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That may not work out in practice all the time, but it's closer to reality than in any of Israel's neighbors.

I daresay that "damning with faint praise" is getting to be an artform.

DR

fuelair · 27th September 2007, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

I never imagined that this thread could degenerate into personal bickering.

You forgot the sarcastic smilie!!

Cylinder · 27th September 2007, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by strathmeyer

When we sent money to Osama Bin Laden to fight the Russians, were we "aiding the cause of freedom and democracy"? Or are we unable to correctly parallel situations when they don't suit or agenda?

The US never funded or trained Osama bin Laden or any of his inner circle. The people funded and trained by the United States through the CIA's ISI back-channel formed the core of what became the Northern Alliance.

shemp · 27th September 2007, 10:13 PM

Israel is welcome to **** my *****.

Ziggurat · 28th September 2007, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by shemp

Israel is welcome to **** my *****.

I wasn't aware that you were making your goats available for others to use in that manner, but I doubt they will take you up on that offer.

Darth Rotor · 28th September 2007, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Cylinder

The US never funded or trained Osama bin Laden or any of his inner circle. The people funded and trained by the United States through the CIA's ISI back-channel formed the core of what became the Northern Alliance.

IIRC, on 9 September 2001, a leader in the Northern Alliance named Massoud was assassinated by two Al Q operatives posing as journalists who had camera bombs.

DR

WildCat · 28th September 2007, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

IIRC, on 9 September 2001, a leader in the Northern Alliance named Massoud was assassinated by two Al Q operatives posing as journalists who had camera bombs.

DR

It is widely assumed that OBL did that as a favor to his Taliban hosts, to entrench himself in their protection prior to 9/11.

The death of Massoud was a big blow. I am certain that he would have been a valuable asset in rebuilding the country post-Taliban.

WildCat · 28th September 2007, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by strathmeyer

When we sent money to Osama Bin Laden to fight the Russians, were we "aiding the cause of freedom and democracy"? Or are we unable to correctly parallel situations when they don't suit or agenda?

That would make sense if it was correct, but as it turns out the CIA had nothing to do with funding OBL or any other Arab fighters in Afghanistan. In fact, the Arab fighters were considered a joke by the native fighters. But OBL does know how to work the propaganda, and many people still think that he single-handedly drove the Russians from Afghanistan when in reality he played a very minor, insignificant role.

E.J.Armstrong · 30th September 2007, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

...Europe is on track to become Muslim-majority before the end of the century. If that trend continues and those muslims can be radicalized, then they will have conquered Europe without having to win a single military victory. ...

And if all water turned to gold he Muslims in Europe would own all the gold and if they all jumped up and down at once the orbit of the earth would be altered and if ...

What complete sectarian bigotry and intentional demonisation of an entire religious group of the worst possible kind.

E.J.Armstrong · 30th September 2007, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

That would make sense if it was correct, but as it turns out the CIA had nothing to do with funding OBL or any other Arab fighters in Afghanistan. In fact, the Arab fighters were considered a joke by the native fighters. But OBL does know how to work the propaganda, and many people still think that he single-handedly drove the Russians from Afghanistan when in reality he played a very minor, insignificant role.

AS you know that is false as demonstrated by this link. http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html
wherin it points out: -
'With the active encouragement of the CIA and Pakistan's ISI [Inter Services Intelligence], who wanted to turn the Afghan jihad into a global war waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan's fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan jihad.3
The Islamic "jihad" was supported by the United States and Saudi Arabia with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade:

In March 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166,...[which] authorize[d] stepped-up covert military aid to the mujahideen, and it made clear that the secret Afghan war had a new goal: to defeat Soviet troops in Afghanistan through covert action and encourage a Soviet withdrawal. The new covert U.S. assistance began with a dramatic increase in arms supplies -- a steady rise to 65,000 tons annually by 1987, ... as well as a "ceaseless stream" of CIA and Pentagon specialists who traveled to the secret headquarters of Pakistan's ISI on the main road near Rawalpindi, Pakistan. There the CIA specialists met with Pakistani intelligence officers to help plan operations for the Afghan rebels.4
The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) using Pakistan's military Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) played a key role in training the Mujahideen. In turn, the CIA sponsored guerrilla training was integrated with the teachings of Islam:

Predominant themes were that Islam was a complete socio-political ideology, that holy Islam was being violated by the atheistic Soviet troops, and that the Islamic people of Afghanistan should reassert their independence by overthrowing the leftist Afghan regime propped up by Moscow.'

THe USA supported many human rights abusers such as Saddam Hussein.

EGarrett · 30th September 2007, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Quit evading, please. What do you claim his point is, contra my take on it? Note my comment previous, inviting you to present your take on it for my benefit, and perhaps for benefit of others reading.

Your claiming what it isn't is a useless comment.

DR

Sorry, but you have a rather sad habit of being so quick to attack other people that you ignore your own hypocritical behavior. Check Scheuer's exact quote then compare it to your own. You accuse others of dishonesty when you make the same mistakes, often more. You just compound it by trying to personally attack other people without even realizing what you're doing. As soon as you admit to that behavior I'll be happy to move on. But ignoring it, no.

Originally Posted by strathmeyer

When we sent money to Osama Bin Laden to fight the Russians, were we "aiding the cause of freedom and democracy"? Or are we unable to correctly parallel situations when they don't suit or agenda?

Yes, we were aiding the cause of freedom and democracy. Stopping the spread of communism was pretty clearly linked to that. I'm not sure what your point is...we were supposed to fight every potential threat simultaenously? That's not feasible...and some things are greater priorities than others at different times in the world.

Originally Posted by billydkid

Honestly, I simply think he didn't make his point exactly in the way he meant. Israel is far and away the best armed nation in the region and could demolish any country that threatens it - so there is no need to sacrifice American lives in its defense. And I have asked this question before and I ask it in all sincerity because I honestly don't know. I have to add I am pro-Israel. They are our ally (although they do seem to like to spy on us.) Is Israel really a democracy? Are all the people who live there citizens and do they all have equal civil rights? Again, I support Israel and believe they have every right to defend themselves by whatever means necessary from terrorist attacks.

If Scheuer had said "Israel can protect themselves," that would be fine. But he made a dismissal of the entire idea of promoting democracy abroad. He also said it as a specific counter to Maher's point. That's where I take issue.

Darth Rotor · 2nd October 2007, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by EGarrett

As soon as you admit to that behavior I'll be happy to move on. But ignoring it, no.

Yet another evasion noted, after two polite requests for you to state your take on his words. The idea is to continue the discussion, but since you can't counter my take on his words, I will take it that you agree with me -- since you offer nothing other than "no it isn't" as a response -- and would rather spend time bickering than sharing your difference in understanding of his comments.

More dishonesty, sadly, consistent with your promotion of deliberately misleading title in the OP.

DR

EGarrett · 2nd October 2007, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Yet another evasion noted, after two polite requests for you to state your take on his words. The idea is to continue the discussion, but since you can't counter my take on his words, I will take it that you agree with me -- since you offer nothing other than "no it isn't" as a response -- and would rather spend time bickering than sharing your difference in understanding of his comments.

More dishonesty, sadly, consistent with your promotion of deliberately misleading title in the OP.

DR

Right. Ignorant hypocrisy exposed.

BTW, remember the time before this one, when you went out of your way to try to attack me for starting a thread claiming it was pointless and no one would reply...and yet, like a fool, you forgot that you yourself had replied in depth? Then I copy/pasted it and you apologized in embarrassed fashion?

22nd September 2007, 10:16 PM	#1
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,987	Former CIA Head: "Israel isn't worth an American Dollar." http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=efe_1190512037 Originally Posted by That guy Israel isn't worth an American life or an American dollar. That's funny, because if it wasn't for other countries aiding the cause of freedom and democracy, we wouldn't even HAVE an "America"... France played a key role in aiding the revolution, providing the Americans with money and munitions, organizing a coalition against Britain, and sending an army and a fleet that played a decisive role at the battle that effectively ended the war at Yorktown. In fact, I think this guy is pretty much full of **** on this particular topic. You have to actively promote and defend freedom and democracy. You can't adopt the "First they came for my neighbor, and I did nothing" policy. That's of course, plainly stupid.
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,987	__________________ EG

23rd September 2007, 06:43 AM	#3
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by WildCat Wow, Scheuer really shows his ignorance in that clip. In his view, all we need to do is give Islamic extremists everything they want and they'll leave us alone. Why not? It worked with Hitler.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

23rd September 2007, 02:25 PM	#8
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus Whilst Scheuer is being bigoted and full of a whole lot of non-sensical face hair in this article, I think it is a shame some rational people do not stand against the reckless actions of Israel. That and the terrible image it has made of liberal democracy in the Middle East. Also, he wasn't the head of the CIA. Right...Israel is the reckless one. Of course. How easy it is to be on the Islamic fanatics' side. Reason has no role in life and hard core religion is the way to go. Was it Muhamad who said that by the power of the sword all shall fall under Islam? Something like that... and human lives lost are just other people's lives, as long as it's not your own, and I quote: Quote: Originally Posted by JoeEllison Well, he's right to dismiss it... probably the only thing he was right about. Or, do you really think that there's a threat that Islamic extremists will take over the world by blowing up a couple of buildings every few years? So nice to see you make light about the three thousand people who dies on 9/11. Great. You have learned much from recent world terrors.
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

23rd September 2007, 03:01 PM	#9
PogoPedant Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 764	Originally Posted by That guy Israel isn't worth (...) an American dollar. Considering the value of the USD, that's saying quite a lot...
PogoPedant Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 764

23rd September 2007, 08:21 PM	#13
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	I never imagined that this thread could degenerate into personal bickering.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

23rd September 2007, 06:30 AM	#2
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,471	Wow, Scheuer really shows his ignorance in that clip. In his view, all we need to do is give Islamic extremists everything they want and they'll leave us alone. Apparently, Scheuer either dismisses or ignores the long-term goal of a new world-wide Caliphate.

23rd September 2007, 06:49 AM	#4
JoeEllison Cuddly Like a Koala Bear Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 7,276	Originally Posted by WildCat Wow, Scheuer really shows his ignorance in that clip. In his view, all we need to do is give Islamic extremists everything they want and they'll leave us alone. Apparently, Scheuer either dismisses or ignores the long-term goal of a new world-wide Caliphate. Well, he's right to dismiss it... probably the only thing he was right about. Or, do you really think that there's a threat that Islamic extremists will take over the world by blowing up a couple of buildings every few years?

23rd September 2007, 06:59 AM	#5
JoeEllison Cuddly Like a Koala Bear Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 7,276	Oh, and let's be fair here... the guy isn't being anti-Israel, he's being extremely isolationist. He's still wrong, but wrong for a different reason.

23rd September 2007, 08:00 AM	#6
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,904	Whilst Scheuer is being bigoted and full of a whole lot of non-sensical face hair in this article, I think it is a shame some rational people do not stand against the reckless actions of Israel. That and the terrible image it has made of liberal democracy in the Middle East. Also, he wasn't the head of the CIA.

23rd September 2007, 02:16 PM	#7
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	Originally Posted by JoeEllison Well, he's right to dismiss it... probably the only thing he was right about. Or, do you really think that there's a threat that Islamic extremists will take over the world by blowing up a couple of buildings every few years? So nice to see you make light about the three thousand people who dies on 9/11.

23rd September 2007, 03:07 PM	#10
JoeEllison Cuddly Like a Koala Bear Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 7,276	Originally Posted by dudalb So nice to see you make light about the three thousand people who dies on 9/11. I didn't do that. Why would you feel obligated to interpret what I posted that way?

23rd September 2007, 03:10 PM	#11
JoeEllison Cuddly Like a Koala Bear Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 7,276	Originally Posted by yairhol Great. You have learned much from recent world terrors. Yep. One of the things I learned is that stupid people will pretend that the whole world is on the brink of destruction, to justify doing the worst things possible. Even though the threat is minimal, they will twist everything to fit the frame of their cowardice and stupidity.

23rd September 2007, 03:14 PM	#12
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,904	Originally Posted by yairhol Right...Israel is the reckless one. Of course. How easy it is to be on the Islamic fanatics' side. Reason has no role in life and hard core religion is the way to go. Was it Muhamad who said that by the power of the sword all shall fall under Islam? Something like that... and human lives lost are just other people's lives, as long as it's not your own, and I quote: Since when did I forget the Islamists reckless behaviour? Tell you what, next time I see you, I will stamp a disclaimer on my forhead to point that out for you, or, if it will calm the jumbled nerves and unhook the twisted panties, put it in my signature. Can't you see how Israel ignoring UNSC's resolution 425 for 22 years isn't the greatest shining light for western democracy and individualistic freedom?

23rd September 2007, 10:50 PM	#14
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	That's cuz you're just a git.

24th September 2007, 11:17 AM	#15
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,285	Originally Posted by JoeEllison Well, he's right to dismiss it... probably the only thing he was right about. Or, do you really think that there's a threat that Islamic extremists will take over the world by blowing up a couple of buildings every few years? You misunderstand the threat. Knocking down the occassional building isn't what would bring them victory. Demographics will do that. The purpose of knocking down the occassional building is to maintain polarization and cultural isolation of those demographics. Europe is on track to become Muslim-majority before the end of the century. If that trend continues and those muslims can be radicalized, then they will have conquered Europe without having to win a single military victory. Terrorist attacks are not a military threat in the conventional sense, but they are absolutely vital to the Islamist strategy of radicalization. So is this what will happen? Maybe not. But what is Europe doing to ensure it doesn't? They haven't figured that one out yet.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

24th September 2007, 12:04 PM	#16
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by Ziggurat .... Europe is on track to become Muslim-majority before the end of the century. ..... Uh, no. Not true at all. Any stats at all to back that assertion?
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

24th September 2007, 12:57 PM	#17
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,379	Originally Posted by your title Former CIA Head: "Israel isn't worth an American Dollar." Dishonest title. Scheuer was the head of the unit concerned with Osama Bin Laden, he was not the CIA's head, nor the head of the CIA. Suggest a correction for clarity. That said, thanks for the link, it was humorous indeed. Bill Maher got good mileage out of his conversation with Mr Scheuer. As to Israel's being worth, or not worth, an American dollar, I think aid to Israel could stand a significant reduction, more along the lines of our assistance to Turkey, a NATO ally in the region, per capita. Or Egypt, to whom we also provide aid with the intent to promote something good within the region. We give aid to a lot of countries, the major complaint is the comparative amount given Israel versus others. Scheuer's cynical comment about "US will do just fine regardless of how many people anywhere else ever vote" has decent historical support. There is an element of truth to that, but it is a very short sighted point of view. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 24th September 2007 at 01:01 PM.

24th September 2007, 02:53 PM	#18
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,987	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Dishonest title. Scheuer was the head of the unit concerned with Osama Bin Laden, he was not the CIA's head, nor the head of the CIA. I didn't say he was the CIA's head, nor did I say he was head OF the CIA. Nonetheless, he was a CIA head, in a major area. When you watch the clip his title is made quite clear. Quote: Scheuer's cynical comment about "US will do just fine regardless of how many people anywhere else ever vote" has decent historical support. If you're going to accuse other people of dishonesty, don't do what you did here. That's not what Scheuer said...you altered the quote so it would sound more reasonable and fit your point.
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,987	__________________ EG Last edited by EGarrett; 24th September 2007 at 02:56 PM.

24th September 2007, 03:00 PM	#19
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,379	Originally Posted by EGarrett I didn't say he was the CIA's head, nor did I say he was head OF the CIA. Nonetheless, he was a CIA head, in a major area. When you watch the clip his title is made quite clear. Stubborn attachment to dishonest headline noted. Your defensiveness is also noted. Quote: If you're going to accuse other people of dishonesty, don't do what you did here. That's not what Scheuer said...you altered the quote so it would sound more reasonable and fit your point. Good point, that quote marks were misleading, so I'll correct my remark, to a paraphrase, not a quote, as it was spoken rather than written. Scheuer's point, that the US will do just fine regardless of how many people anywhere else ever vote, (from the second half of the video) seems a reference to American having been in bed with a number of autocratic regimes but still doing well enough, as a nation state and a power. While his point holds a grain of truth, it is a short sighted position to take. See how easy it is to correct an error when someone else points it out to you? Try it sometime. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

24th September 2007, 05:20 PM	#20
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,987	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Stubborn attachment to dishonest headline noted. Your defensiveness is also noted. Good point, that quote marks were misleading, so I'll correct my remark, to a paraphrase, not a quote, as it was spoken rather than written. Right, and you'll acknowledge being a hypocrite also, right? Quote: Scheuer's point, that the US will do just fine regardless of how many people anywhere else ever vote, (from the second half of the video) seems a reference to American having been in bed with a number of autocratic regimes but still doing well enough, as a nation state and a power. While his point holds a grain of truth, it is a short sighted position to take. That's still not what he said. You're still being dishonest.
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,987	__________________ EG

25th September 2007, 12:44 PM	#21
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,379	Originally Posted by EGarrett Right, and you'll acknowledge being a hypocrite also, right? Quote: That's still not what he said. You're still being dishonest. I justy watched the clip again. That is an accurate summary of his point, the interruptions considered. If you have an alternative summary, please share it with me. Perhaps your grasp, from your PoV, will improve my understanding of Mr Scheuer's remarks. Back to the title. I note your stubborn insistence on the misleading label, after it is pointed out to you. Your actions show that you are pleased to perpetuate a falsehood. Any pretension that it was an error, or an oversight, is rendered moot by your reaction to correction in detail. This shows you to be willing to defend deliberately misleading information. In some circles it is called false advertising. Welcome to The Liar's club, population you. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

26th September 2007, 12:48 PM	#22
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,987	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor I justy watched the clip again. That is an accurate summary of his point, the interruptions considered. If you have an alternative summary, please share it with me. Perhaps your grasp, from your PoV, will improve my understanding of Mr Scheuer's remarks. Back to the title. I note your stubborn insistence on the misleading label, after it is pointed out to you. Your actions show that you are pleased to perpetuate a falsehood. Any pretension that it was an error, or an oversight, is rendered moot by your reaction to correction in detail. This shows you to be willing to defend deliberately misleading information. In some circles it is called false advertising. Welcome to The Liar's club, population you. DR I asked you if you're going to acknowledge that you're a hypocrite. You're trying to avoid the point. You want to attack others, not politely point out a misleading title, but frame it as dishonesty...but you didn't bother in the least to notice that you're doing the same thing, repeatedly. Yet another sign of how your own lazy thinking and lack of memory fuel your attacks on other members...as I've shown in the past. Check Scheuer's quote again, it's not nearly as reasonble as you're trying to make it out to be.
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,987	__________________ EG

26th September 2007, 01:09 PM	#23
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,379	Originally Posted by EGarrett Check Scheuer's quote again, it's not nearly as reasonble as you're trying to make it out to be. Quit evading, please. What do you claim his point is, contra my take on it? Note my comment previous, inviting you to present your take on it for my benefit, and perhaps for benefit of others reading. Your claiming what it isn't is a useless comment. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 26th September 2007 at 01:20 PM.

26th September 2007, 01:21 PM	#24
strathmeyer seriously unable to be serious Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Posts: 2,382	Originally Posted by EGarrett That's funny, because if it wasn't for other countries aiding the cause of freedom and democracy, we wouldn't even HAVE an "America"... When we sent money to Osama Bin Laden to fight the Russians, were we "aiding the cause of freedom and democracy"? Or are we unable to correctly parallel situations when they don't suit or agenda?

26th September 2007, 01:25 PM	#25
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,379	Originally Posted by strathmeyer When we sent money to Osama Bin Laden to fight the Russians, were we "aiding the cause of freedom and democracy"? Or are we unable to correctly parallel situations when they don't suit or agenda? If you operate under the paradigm that opposing the USSR is an action in support of freedom and democracy, then yes, we were. If not, then the answer is not as clear. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

27th September 2007, 07:13 AM	#26
billydkid Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Blanchester, OH Posts: 4,930	Originally Posted by EGarrett http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=efe_1190512037 That's funny, because if it wasn't for other countries aiding the cause of freedom and democracy, we wouldn't even HAVE an "America"... France played a key role in aiding the revolution, providing the Americans with money and munitions, organizing a coalition against Britain, and sending an army and a fleet that played a decisive role at the battle that effectively ended the war at Yorktown. In fact, I think this guy is pretty much full of **** on this particular topic. You have to actively promote and defend freedom and democracy. You can't adopt the "First they came for my neighbor, and I did nothing" policy. That's of course, plainly stupid. Honestly, I simply think he didn't make his point exactly in the way he meant. Israel is far and away the best armed nation in the region and could demolish any country that threatens it - so there is no need to sacrifice American lives in its defense. And I have asked this question before and I ask it in all sincerity because I honestly don't know. I have to add I am pro-Israel. They are our ally (although they do seem to like to spy on us.) Is Israel really a democracy? Are all the people who live there citizens and do they all have equal civil rights? Again, I support Israel and believe they have every right to defend themselves by whatever means necessary from terrorist attacks.
	__________________ Wasting away in Blanchester.

27th September 2007, 11:35 AM	#27
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,285	Originally Posted by billydkid Is Israel really a democracy? Are all the people who live there citizens and do they all have equal civil rights? Israel is definitely a democracy, even if imperfectly so. Not everyone who lives there is a citizen, but that means nothing: every country in the world pretty much has permanent non-citizen residents. Israel does indeed have citizens who are not Jewish, and by law I believe they are supposed to have equal civil rights. That may not work out in practice all the time, but it's closer to reality than in any of Israel's neighbors.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

27th September 2007, 12:50 PM	#28
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,379	Originally Posted by Ziggurat That may not work out in practice all the time, but it's closer to reality than in any of Israel's neighbors. I daresay that "damning with faint praise" is getting to be an artform. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

27th September 2007, 12:58 PM	#29
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,321	Originally Posted by Gravy I never imagined that this thread could degenerate into personal bickering. You forgot the sarcastic smilie!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,321

27th September 2007, 09:55 PM	#30
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,933	Originally Posted by strathmeyer When we sent money to Osama Bin Laden to fight the Russians, were we "aiding the cause of freedom and democracy"? Or are we unable to correctly parallel situations when they don't suit or agenda? The US never funded or trained Osama bin Laden or any of his inner circle. The people funded and trained by the United States through the CIA's ISI back-channel formed the core of what became the Northern Alliance.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

27th September 2007, 10:13 PM	#31
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,988	Israel is welcome to ** my ***.
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what?

28th September 2007, 07:09 AM	#32
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,285	Originally Posted by shemp Israel is welcome to ** my ***. I wasn't aware that you were making your goats available for others to use in that manner, but I doubt they will take you up on that offer.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

28th September 2007, 07:42 AM	#33
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,379	Originally Posted by Cylinder The US never funded or trained Osama bin Laden or any of his inner circle. The people funded and trained by the United States through the CIA's ISI back-channel formed the core of what became the Northern Alliance. IIRC, on 9 September 2001, a leader in the Northern Alliance named Massoud was assassinated by two Al Q operatives posing as journalists who had camera bombs. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

28th September 2007, 08:17 AM	#34
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,471	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor IIRC, on 9 September 2001, a leader in the Northern Alliance named Massoud was assassinated by two Al Q operatives posing as journalists who had camera bombs. DR It is widely assumed that OBL did that as a favor to his Taliban hosts, to entrench himself in their protection prior to 9/11. The death of Massoud was a big blow. I am certain that he would have been a valuable asset in rebuilding the country post-Taliban.

28th September 2007, 08:21 AM	#35
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,471	Originally Posted by strathmeyer When we sent money to Osama Bin Laden to fight the Russians, were we "aiding the cause of freedom and democracy"? Or are we unable to correctly parallel situations when they don't suit or agenda? That would make sense if it was correct, but as it turns out the CIA had nothing to do with funding OBL or any other Arab fighters in Afghanistan. In fact, the Arab fighters were considered a joke by the native fighters. But OBL does know how to work the propaganda, and many people still think that he single-handedly drove the Russians from Afghanistan when in reality he played a very minor, insignificant role.