We should face reality - paranormality has won.

[The Atheist]

I'm beginning to think that the war on stupid is slowly being lost.

I see growth in areas of paranormality, while I see precious little in scepticism. Taking NZ as a classic example, hundreds of "psychics" are scamming thousands of people weekly, generating enormous cashflow, while the few of us out there attacking these charlatans do it for love, not money.

Aside from extremely high-profile people like James Randi, there are few sceptics who could earn a living from it, while any jack-**** piece of flotsam can claim psychic powers, advertise his phone number and he will get business. This is a fairly recent phenomenon and I don't believe that anyone was actually making a living out of pretending to be psychic 30-35 years ago, when I was growing up.

To make matters worse, I find this stuff going on (and who cannot recal the recent, acrimonious exchanges on JREF's experiment with Google ads:

The Bad Astronomer, hoping to find a pillar of reason, I find:



That Google ad is for a monthly psychic/astrological readout, hence the 18+ requirement - it starts off looking like a simple, fun thing and ends up with a contracted provision of messages at a cost of around $10 p.mth. Going by the sheer numbers of these ads, they must be making a fortune.

Here it is again, this time at another hoped-for-bastion of reason, Museum of Hoaxes:



Then, far more dangerous, this on the Straight Dope pages - once an monumentally sceptical site:



Advertising psychics is one thing, getting people to drink tea to cure AIDS is downright immoral.

Do these people not see that debunking something one minute, while running ads the next is just insane?

Clearly not.

Alex, from Museum of Hoaxes had this to say in response to my e mail to him:

Quote:

I have little control over what appears in the google ads. But
honestly, I have no problem taking money from psychics. It's not
going to make me say nice things about them.

-Alex

I'm sure he has no problem taking money from psychics, but how is this perceived by the punters?

I think the Bad Astronomy guy's a member here, so I'll shoot him a PM if someone doesn't beat me to it, but I'd be interested to see his rationale.

Overall, I think we're preaching a message nobody particularly wants to hear. TV has played its part in re-opening what was essentially dispensed with as witchcraft centuries ago, and it looks like the internet is proving an even better weapon in the paranormals' war chest.

Can we turn it around?

[The Atheist]

Oh yeah, I forgot this complete drop-kick:



If anyone knows this bloke, give him an uppercut!

[Miss Whiplash]

Those of us who use Google AdSense have no control over what ads are displayed on our websites. The ads are chosen by Google depending upon site content and readership. If you want to beat up on someone, go beat up on Google.

How Adsense Works

[Apology]

I wanted to second what The Vampire said about Google AdSense. It's a terrible program and even the advertisers are often upset about where Google puts their ads. It's unlikely that anyone on friendlyatheist.com is going to click on an ad for Christian products, but they still have to pay for the ad. It's all based on keywords. If someone posted "Christ, I have a headache," that's enough to trigger the Jesus-Christ-Real-Story ad.

[Miss Whiplash]

What gets me is those who complain about the Google ads can never seem to find the "Donate" button on the other side of the screen. If more people hit that "Donate" button, at least on my site, the Google ads would vanish.

[hmmm...]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Overall, I think we're preaching a message nobody particularly wants to hear. TV has played its part in re-opening what was essentially dispensed with as witchcraft centuries ago, and it looks like the internet is proving an even better weapon in the paranormals' war chest.

Can we turn it around?

Probably not ! But it's fun trying.

[Wowbagger]

I get the sense that the tide is turning, that science is slowly, but surely, winning the battle. If you sense a surge in paranormal ads and activities, it might be because the businesses are feeling threatened.

Maybe. I could be wrong, though.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

I get the sense that the tide is turning, that science is slowly, but surely, winning the battle. If you sense a surge in paranormal ads and activities, it might be because the businesses are feeling threatened.

Maybe. I could be wrong, though.

I hope you're right. Maybe we are just becoming more aware of this apparent pandemic of fecencephalopathy because of the exposure afforded by boards like this.

[bokonon]

I don't think the overall level of woo is rising, it's just suffusing into more subsects. Where once it was just tea and tarot cards, now it's feng shui and aura color charting.

It may be that the internet is making the market more efficient -- anyone who wants to find a dog whisperer can now do so -- but I seriously doubt that the ordinary garden-variety psychic is raking in loads of cash. The celebrities who get on TV probably are, but they're also probably siphoning away money that would previously have gone to a televangelist.

Of course, I don't have any hard statistics, so I could be completely wrong.

[buzz lightyear]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I'm beginning to think that the war on stupid is slowly being lost.

There is no war ,Athiest, just consciousness changing.
Admittidly, a few stragglers like yourself are finding it difficult, and are clinging desperately to your old ways.

And the charlatans are profiting, as they always have done in times of change.

But like Canute, you can not hold back the tide, we are (thank god) an evolving species.
Future generations will have the psychic abilities that are being explored at the moment.
It is a bit like a distant bushfire, we can see and smell the smoke (that is why you guys are agitated), but there is nothing you can do to stop it.

[hmmm...]

Originally Posted by buzz lightyear

Future generations will have the psychic abilities that are being explored at the moment.

I say, that's jolly good news! What psychic powers might we look forward to do you think?

[Jeff Corey]

Originally Posted by buzz lightyear

There is no war ,Athiest, just consciousness changing.
Admittidly, a few stragglers like yourself are finding it difficult, and are clinging desperately to your old ways.

And the charlatans are profiting, as they always have done in times of change.

But like Canute, you can not hold back the tide, we are (thank god) an evolving species.
Future generations will have the psychic abilities that are being explored at the moment.
It is a bit like a distant bushfire, we can see and smell the smoke (that is why you guys are agitated), but there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Well, some of are actively trying to stop stupidity, ignorance, bald faced lies, and people who can't spell words such as "atheist" and "admittedly". Future generations are about as likely to develop psychic abilities as wings.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by The Vampire

Those of us who use Google AdSense have no control over what ads are displayed on our websites.

I'm well aware of that - it's precisely why I won't use them.

Originally Posted by The Vampire

What gets me is those who complain about the Google ads can never seem to find the "Donate" button on the other side of the screen. If more people hit that "Donate" button, at least on my site, the Google ads would vanish.

Well, if this is your website- and I'm assuming it is as it's in your sig - then you would think that way:



I don't know what your traffic is like, but I'd be highly impressed and surprised if it was anywhere near that generated by my websites. I neither seek donations nor allow ads.

If you're doing it to make a profit, fair enough. If, on the other hand, you want to be taken seriously, then advertising how to develop psychic powers on the same page as dissing Sylvia isn't a good look, as far as I can see.

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

I get the sense that the tide is turning, that science is slowly, but surely, winning the battle. If you sense a surge in paranormal ads and activities, it might be because the businesses are feeling threatened.

Maybe. I could be wrong, though.

It might be because they've got more customers than they can handle, so are happy to undertake multi-million dollar ad campaigns, as the "over 18 only" ads show. I spoke to a fairly astute internet/site developer friend and he estimates that that organisation has spent over $US1M in advertising based on the number of sites and clicks they're generating.

That doesn't sound like a business in trouble.

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

I hope you're right. Maybe we are just becoming more aware of this apparent pandemic of fecencephalopathy because of the exposure afforded by boards like this.

But did the pandemic exist previously?

I see tv programs being shown, both dramas and "reality" programs which would have been laughed off the screen only 20 years ago, now having huge audiences of believers.

Which leads to the next question...

Originally Posted by bokonon

I don't think the overall level of woo is rising, it's just suffusing into more subsects. Where once it was just tea and tarot cards, now it's feng shui and aura color charting.

It may be that the internet is making the market more efficient -- anyone who wants to find a dog whisperer can now do so -- but I seriously doubt that the ordinary garden-variety psychic is raking in loads of cash. The celebrities who get on TV probably are, but they're also probably siphoning away money that would previously have gone to a televangelist.

Of course, I don't have any hard statistics, so I could be completely wrong.

Statistics would be helpful, but I'm unable to find anything.

I agree that most psychics probably don't get rich from it, but again, winding the clock back 20 years, the only "woos" making a [meagre] living out of it were a few writers in women's magazines. Now, I'm bombarded with ads in every newspaper, magazine and website. I know that most psychics have multiple phone listings, but there are unquestionably noticeable numbers of people making a livelihood out of being a charlatan which just didn't used to exist.

I don't see televangelists on the breadline just yet, either.

[schlitt]

Atheist, i feel your frustration, and i beleive these superstitions are gaining ground also.
The problem is much larger than humans beleiving in illogical, untrue things.
The problem is WHY people beleive in illogical , untrue things - and this is something that cannot be rectified, except maybe through another few thousand years of evolution.

But we should not give up the fight, there are those out there with the capacity for solid reasoning, that have just not been presented with the right information yet.

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by buzz lightyear

It is a bit like a distant bushfire, we can see and smell the smoke (that is why you guys are agitated), but there is nothing you can do to stop it.

I'm of a mind to mosey over there and pee on it anyway. Who's with me?

[Slimething]

I'm not sure who's winning or losing at the moment. One thing to consider is that a saturated advertising market is a sign of a mature market. IOW, there's a glut of psychics and they're all competing furiously for the next dollar. I sure hope that's it.

Whether we're winning or losing, it doesn't matter much. We skeptics need to push against that wall, whatever may come.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by schlitt

Atheist, i feel your frustration, and i beleive these superstitions are gaining ground also.
The problem is much larger than humans beleiving in illogical, untrue things.
The problem is WHY people beleive in illogical , untrue things - and this is something that cannot be rectified, except maybe through another few thousand years of evolution.

This is the part which bothers me the most - I think we have a reasonably good grip on why people like Buzz think the world's run by gigantic reptiles, but it doesn't seem to slow the process down at all.

Originally Posted by Gravy

I'm of a mind to mosey over there and pee on it anyway. Who's with me?

Where do we stop educating and start being simply contrarian if people don't want to hear the message?

Originally Posted by Slimething

I'm not sure who's winning or losing at the moment. One thing to consider is that a saturated advertising market is a sign of a mature market. IOW, there's a glut of psychics and they're all competing furiously for the next dollar. I sure hope that's it.

I hope you're right, but to think that without exploring the facts would be a touch delusional. I was hoping someone could come up with some details/trends/etc.

Originally Posted by Slimething

Whether we're winning or losing, it doesn't matter much. We skeptics need to push against that wall, whatever may come.

Even if pushing against the wall is a complete waste of time? Wouldn't we be better off just saying, "**** it" and go fishing?

[Slimething]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I hope you're right, but to think that without exploring the facts would be a touch delusional. I was hoping someone could come up with some details/trends/etc.

I see what you mean. I do believe there's hope for optimism in that I've heard, but cannot instantly put my finger on the basis, that:

• belief in the paranormal is correlated with IQ and education
• people are generally getting smarter, based on IQ testing
• more people are getting educated

I know this is just hand-waving right now but I'll try to pull together some facts.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Slimething

I see what you mean. I do believe there's hope for optimism in that I've heard, but cannot instantly put my finger on the basis, that:

• belief in the paranormal is correlated with IQ and education
• people are generally getting smarter, based on IQ testing
• more people are getting educated

I know this is just hand-waving right now but I'll try to pull together some facts.

Love to see some, because I know for certain that higher intelligence equates to fewer kids, so unless thick people are having lots of smart kids, we're going to get swamped!

[rjh01]

All I see in this thread is the fact that woo still exists. No evidence that it has increased since date x. Not even a mention of a date x. All I know is that if I look at newspapers published at the start of the 1900s or even in the 1950s the amount of woo in them was a lot greater than now.

[The Atheist]

Here's one study, showing 75% belief in some paranormal BS - in USA.

One interesting note in the comments on the Gallup survey is this bit:

Originally Posted by CSICOP

Data from similar polls going back to 1990 indicate a steady, if slow, rise in belief in a number of the items listed.

And apparently 66% of non-christians hold at least one paranormal belief.

Here's an excellent article from 1994
(pity lots of the better-looking pages are sub-only ones)

[schlitt]

Amoung the infinite reasonings behind the resurgence of superstition i see two key issues (these are by no means the only key issues however).

1.) Why people beleive - the psychology behind belief and critical thinking capability
2.) Factors that induce belief - the role society plays

1.) This is something largely beyond the control of anyone. The fact is some people do not have the capacity to cross reference information in their mind and come to accurate conclusions. You may construct a perfect argument for someone, which steps logically through information, and then draws to a conclusion, based on the information given, but the fact is, it still requires the person to work through the information logically, cross reference it in their mind, and formulate a conclusion. If the person is unable to arrive at the conclusion, because they do not have the capacity, then the argument is meaningless to them.
Others may technically have the capacity to think logically, but through prior circumstance this has been silenced by emotional factors, or misinformation.
With these types of people it then becomes a case of providing the exact type of input for their brains to process the information which can be cross referenced with their current thinking, with which an accurate logical conclusion can be drawn. The challenge is; there is know way to know the information that is required to do this, as it is different for each person, and directly relative to their current brain state.

2.) Todays society is largely made up of people who work/waste around 40% of their waking hours dedicating their lifes to making someone else money, and then using a large majority of their free time sitting catatonically in front of a televsion which imparts all manner of ill thought out, misinformed information directly into their brain. People then take this information on board, and regurgitate it in their mind and to others, as their own opinion.
(I realise this is a huge generalisation, and is not always strictly the case, but im sure you get my drift )
Television is driven almost exclusively by profit. Paranormal phenomena has been proven to be very successfull entertainment concept, Skepticism... not so much. As long as television is driven by what ratings and money (forever), then pro superstition programming will outweigh skeptical programming by a HUGE margin. Because humans seem to have a desire for this nonsense to be true, and they are increasingly being bombarded with it, they accept it as truth, because it seems like the right thing to do.

Number 2, we can do something about, and people like James Randi, Richard Dawkins, Robert Lancaster are. Number 1 is a little trickier.

[rjh01]

Quote:

Data from similar polls going back to 1990 indicate a steady, if slow, rise in belief in a number of the items listed.

This suggests that in 1990 there was another poll done. The main difference was that in 1990 they put fewer items in the poll. It does not indicate any growth in woo.

Again the 1994 article does not mention over what time period it is talking about. It is very vague.

[Sherman Bay]

The Google adsense choices bother me a lot, too, and it seems to clash with their extremely high-tech culture. I think Google needs to be leaned on a bit and implored to think about what they are doing. Isn't their motto, "Do no evil"? If so, even if psychic sites are a major source of income, they need to consider how much evil they are propagating with that liberal policy.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by rjh01

Again the 1994 article does not mention over what time period it is talking about. It is very vague.

Pretty much everything on the subject is. Feel free to find more relevant figures. I will e mail CSICOP.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by schlitt

Amoung the infinite reasonings behind the resurgence of superstition i see two key issues (these are by no means the only key issues however).

1.) Why people beleive - the psychology behind belief and critical thinking capability
2.) Factors that induce belief - the role society plays

Number 2, we can do something about, and people like James Randi, Richard Dawkins, Robert Lancaster are. Number 1 is a little trickier.

Yep. Agree entirely. I've long harboured the suspicion that very, very few people are completely untainted by paranormal beliefs and I've seen nothing to disspell that notion yet.

Excellent points.

[Cuddles]

I don't think paranormality has won or that it ever will. In fact, I think science is a sure thing to come out on top, although woo will never disappear completely. The important difference is that science can come up with new things. Woo can't. Sure, they dress their ideas up in new clothes, but there are only really a few basic types of woo.

Healing. Sure, there's a big market for woo here, but just think how much there used to be. More than about 200 years ago, virtually all healing was woo. Then science came along and gave us all kinds of cures. The role of woo in healing is now almost exclusively a supporting one, the vast majority of people use real medicine, even if they use woo as well. There's still a little way to go, but science has pretty much won this battle, there's just a bit of cleaning up left.

Communication. It used to be everyone's fantasy to see distant things and talk to people around the world. Now we can. There are still a few people who claim telepathy or clairvoyance, but who wants to waste time with woo when someone has already stuck a webcam wherever it is you're trying to look? Science won this one with the invention of the radio, and for the most part even the woos realise this.

Telekinesis. Using this to mean any kind of action at a distance. Just imagine if you could turn your TV on without touching it. Or unlock your car or garage by remote. What if you could have a whole building full of automatons making things with a single human controlling them? What if you could kill people just by pointing a specially carved stick at them? Aside from a few party tricks, what does woo have here that science can't do much, much better? Yes, some people still believe in this crap, but it's not exactly taking over the world.

Psychics and mediums. These have always existed and, when it comes down to it, this is all woo really has left. This is the only area, aside from religion, that that can make genuinely untestable claims, and it seems to be the only area of woo that is still going strong without taking a good kickin from science at every turn. Yet even this area is smaller than it used to be. Time was when virtually every single person in the world believed in spirits, psychics, ghosts, god and whatever. Such belief is still widespread, but nowhere near as much as it used to be. Science may not have won this battle yet, but it is certainly not losing.

In the end, there are far more people around now who don't believe in woo than there ever have been before. Possibly even worse from the woos' point of view is that there are even more people who just don't care. There always have been and always will be a smallish group of harcore woos and a smallish group who oppose them. In the past, the woos have always relied on the default position of the general public being belief, and so the non-believers could be largley ignored, and even helped by using the old "They oppose it so there must be something in it" technique. This approach does't work so much any more, because when presented with the claim "I'm psychic", the reaction from the general public is "Meh", and when presented with "I can see what's in another room without being there and talk to someone on the other side of the world", the general reaction is "So can I".

[cyborg]

Originally Posted by buzz lightyear

Admittidly, a few stragglers like yourself are finding it difficult, and are clinging desperately to your old ways.

*Sigh* It is rather unfortunate that all that is seemingly required to turn an entire proposition about reality on its head in the human mind is simply for a chemical switch to go one way rather than the other.

It is you who are having problems comprehending reality - clinging desperately to outdated notions about it.

Quote:

And the charlatans are profiting, as they always have done in times of change.

Yeah... so where are all those non-charlatans hiding then?

Quote:

But like Canute, you can not hold back the tide, we are (thank god) an evolving species.

I like the unknowing irony of this sentence.

Quote:

Future generations will have the psychic abilities that are being explored at the moment.

Hmm... no.

Quote:

It is a bit like a distant bushfire, we can see and smell the smoke (that is why you guys are agitated), but there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Yeah. I'm trying to stop it. I must be. That can be the only explanation that could possibly explain why I am skeptical of such claims.

Yep. I must hate it. Nothing else would make any sense. I must want to strip people of psychic powers and round them up in gulags.

[Miss Whiplash]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I'm well aware of that - it's precisely why I won't use them.



Well, if this is your website- and I'm assuming it is as it's in your sig - then you would think that way:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s...st/mondosk.jpg



I don't know what your traffic is like, but I'd be highly impressed and surprised if it was anywhere near that generated by my websites. I neither seek donations nor allow ads.

If you're doing it to make a profit, fair enough. If, on the other hand, you want to be taken seriously, then advertising how to develop psychic powers on the same page as dissing Sylvia isn't a good look, as far as I can see.

*sarcasm* Gee! No **** Sherlock! I would have never thought that at all! The idea never crossed my mind! *sarcasm*

You must have deeper pockets than I do, or use free services. If you'd like to donate the $200/yr to keep the webpage up, like I said, the ads will go.

I patiently await your pushing the "Donate" button, Atheist. (Come on big guy. I know you can find it!) As you get so many hits on your sites. I know it will not be a problem.

And yes, that is my website. That's why it's in my sig and the screen names are the same and I link to it a lot here. (Man! How did you ever figure that out!)

[Ryan O'Dine]

One thing to bear in mind is that hard-core modern science has been around only two or three hundred years. Superstition, OTOH, is a fixture of human cognition and has been around since Adam and Eve (er... you know what I mean). No doubt there’ll be fluctuations in the amount of woo over the course of decades, but when you think about it, it's amazing science has made as much headway as it has in the brief time it's been around.

So you can despair about the short-term trends, and maybe I'll join you. But if you think that woo will crowd out science in the long term -- that "paranormality has won" -- well, you're on your own, my friend.

Just ask the once-powerful tobacco lobby how easy it is to kill off science.

[Miss Whiplash]

One thing The Atheist did not address in his whining over Google AdSense ads, is there are many times these ads are showing science products on our pages.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Originally Posted by Cuddles

I don't think paranormality has won or that it ever will. In fact, I think science is a sure thing to come out on top, although woo will never disappear completely.

Exactly. I realize "religion" is just a subset of "paranormality", but let's not forget that everything that is now the realm of science was once the realm of religion.

[Langis]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

We should face reality - paranormality has won.

My petty pride won't allow such an event to register in my brain.

Other than taking over the world (which I've been preparing to do since I was 10), the only thing to do is to keep fighting the good fight. Question the woo 'til the end of your days. That's what I'll do.

[Denver]

I don't think it is 'winning'. But it is, and always has been, 'on the move'.

If we divide the playing field into two main areas, with accepted science on the left, and the unknown/theoretical/mysterious on the right, there is a sweet spot in the middle. This area, while unproven (or sometimes even unprovable), is far enough away from 'unknown' not to be rejected outright by many, but close enough to the scientific/known that it even looks plausible. This is the perfect place for charlatans to set up shop.

Science, of course, continues to do its best to push this line back. As Science moves to the unknown side, this sweet-spot must move too.

So, while you will continue to see the paranormal come up with new ideas and new scams, some old ones will either be falling, or scrambling to evolve and adapt to science's new positions. I would say, then, that there is no need to be discouraged. What you perceive as growth in the paranormal field, is really retreat from earlier strongholds and entry into new ones.

But the chase goes on.

[ImaginalDisc]

Yes, Ogtek, this heresey of "science" is now dead.

Yesterday, as I was propitating the angry spirits of my ancestors and begging them for a bountiful hunt, I reflected on how little this "science" effects our lives. I threw my spear (with a crude, pointed wooden end, lacking even the simple benefit of fire hardening) at an elk, and only grazed the beast. I had angered it, rather than slain it. It ran me down and I was wracked with demons of pain and bleeding.

As my soul drifted away I had a vision of a terrifying and confusing world where people communicate with one another sing glowing boxes and clicking, clacking boards. These people were swallowed by gleaming firebirds and disgorded when the thing took roost. They made hollow thorns and stuck one another with them to fend off the spirits of illness, rather than sacrificing animals. In their madness, they even dreamed that they had touched the moon and the stars.

Oh, Ogtek. I picked my way across the steppes and now I lay dying, my body polluted with the spirits of pus and fever. I am glad to be warmed by your words, assuring me that our "science" is gone. What a terrible world it would be if it won. We are right to celebrate the triumph of woo.

[Wowbagger]

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

I hope you're right. Maybe we are just becoming more aware of this apparent pandemic of fecencephalopathy because of the exposure afforded by boards like this.

Of course, what I wrote earlier could just be my cautious optimism talking.

Originally Posted by The Atheist

It might be because they've got more customers than they can handle, so are happy to undertake multi-million dollar ad campaigns, as the "over 18 only" ads show. I spoke to a fairly astute internet/site developer friend and he estimates that that organisation has spent over $US1M in advertising based on the number of sites and clicks they're generating.

That doesn't sound like a business in trouble.

Perhaps it depends on the business. Some of the woo stuff is thriving, because people are soaking it up; other woo stuff is seeking more aggressive promotion because people are not.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by The Vampire

You must have deeper pockets than I do, or use free services. If you'd like to donate the $200/yr to keep the webpage up, like I said, the ads will go.

Well, there's your problem - $200 annually is a ridiculously high cost. Shop around.

Originally Posted by The Vampire

And yes, that is my website. That's why it's in my sig and the screen names are the same and I link to it a lot here. (Man! How did you ever figure that out!)

Well, lots of websites in sigs aren't owned by the poster, so I was making sure rather than assuming anything. I dislike assumptions.

Originally Posted by The Vampire

One thing The Atheist did not address in his whining over Google AdSense ads, is there are many times these ads are showing science products on our pages.

Whining? How is it whining? I've said that everyone is clearly free to use Google Adsense, I just happen to think it creates a fairly hypocritical look to be claiming to be a sceptic then advertising the very thing you're railing against.

Originally Posted by Langis

Other than taking over the world (which I've been preparing to do since I was 10), the only thing to do is to keep fighting the good fight. Question the woo 'til the end of your days. That's what I'll do.

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

So you can despair about the short-term trends, and maybe I'll join you. But if you think that woo will crowd out science in the long term -- that "paranormality has won" -- well, you're on your own, my friend.

Don't be misled, I wasn't suggesting that we're about to enter another era of warlocks, witches and alchemy - I'm not shutting down my own sites, let alone recommending anyone else do that.

What is bugging me is the unlimited growth of this stuff, the love for it in tv-land (which is feeding on itself to create more growth) and the inability of rationality to force its way into the thick heads of the believers.

The core problem is that the growth appears to be far stronger than it was a generation ago.

It may be time for a new approach. What that might be, I have no idea, but a good start would be some kind of legal challenge to people who charge money for psychic services. Take the MDC and Edge as a case in point. Edge has failed a challenge and would certainly fail again, yet he thinks he might get it right this time. Stupidity is endemic and recurring.

Originally Posted by Cuddles

In the end, there are far more people around now who don't believe in woo than there ever have been before. Possibly even worse from the woos' point of view is that there are even more people who just don't care

That doesn't appear to be borne out by what little information we do have.

Also, in your list, you missed a couple of things which have grown exponentially from almost zero 30 years ago - feng shui and Paganism. In the west, feng shui was virtually unknown and almost all of Paganism had died out hundreds of years previously, yet nowadays they have millions of followers.

You did notice the study which showed that 75% of people believe at least 1/10 of kinds of "paranormal activity", and that the list was nowhere near complete?

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

Perhaps it depends on the business. Some of the woo stuff is thriving, because people are soaking it up; other woo stuff is seeking more aggressive promotion because people are not.

Well, I think it's a lot simpler than that - there aren't too many ways to make money out of telekinesis, while there are out of Feng Shui, psychic messages & healing and astrology.

[geni]

The ads are largely meaningless. What skeptical services or producs are people going to be interested in advertiseing with those keywords? Thus even penny paranormaly product ads are going to predominate.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by geni

The ads are largely meaningless. What skeptical services or producs are people going to be interested in advertiseing with those keywords? Thus even penny paranormaly product ads are going to predominate.

I think you've contradicted yourself a bit here - how can they be meaningless when there's a huge proliferation of them? You're right about scepticism having nothing to sell, though.