To read or not to read?

coldreader · 30th September 2007, 01:37 PM

I hope that forum members can help me resolve an ethical dilemma.

When I was a teenager, many years ago, I looked around for something distinctive I could do to break the ice at parties and make friends. I hit on palm reading, mainly because no one else I knew was doing it and it sounded cool.

In the course of studying palmistry I came across my city's bylaws against fortune telling. Forewarned -- in the conventional sense! -- I took care never to make predictions during readings. My routine was to tell the subject that the palm was like a map, showing them where they had the power to go. Then I'd proceed with what I later learned was a cold reading, always emphasizing the positive -- I was, after all, trying to make friends.

My palm reading did have the social result I wanted, but after a while I began to feel very uncomfortable with how seriously some people took it. I stopped for several years and only started again when a friend asked me to do readings for a charity fundraising. I've since been invited to perform at several fundraisers.

When giving a reading, I state first that I am not a psychic and will do only a personality analysis. This approach usually goes down well enough, except once with a Baptist church that kicked me out of a bazaar on the grounds that as only God knows what will be, if I made predictions that would prove I was a harmless charlatan; therefore, not making predictions smacked of satanism.

My ethical dilemma relates to the fact that, as you know, many people want to believe in psychic powers, sometimes desperately. I am concerned that despite my not-a-psychic caveat and upbeat readings, I am contributing to harmful beliefs that open up emotionally vulnerable people to exploitation by predators. For example, a young woman came back to me after a reading, said I'd seen the real her, and asked me seriously if she should consult a voodoo priest who advertised in a local tabloid. I talked her out of it, but it was an unsettling experience.

I am a regular reader of Swift and even have a Randi doll that sits on my computer desk to remind me daily that there is still sanity in the world. I would value the views of forum members about the ethics of doing palm readings to raise funds for charities.

fls · 30th September 2007, 02:05 PM

Can you turn it into a lesson on how psychics fool people?

Linda

schlitt · 30th September 2007, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by coldreader

I hope that forum members can help me resolve an ethical dilemma.

When I was a teenager, many years ago, I looked around for something distinctive I could do to break the ice at parties and make friends. I hit on palm reading, mainly because no one else I knew was doing it and it sounded cool.

In the course of studying palmistry I came across my city's bylaws against fortune telling. Forewarned -- in the conventional sense! -- I took care never to make predictions during readings. My routine was to tell the subject that the palm was like a map, showing them where they had the power to go. Then I'd proceed with what I later learned was a cold reading, always emphasizing the positive -- I was, after all, trying to make friends.

My palm reading did have the social result I wanted, but after a while I began to feel very uncomfortable with how seriously some people took it. I stopped for several years and only started again when a friend asked me to do readings for a charity fundraising. I've since been invited to perform at several fundraisers.

When giving a reading, I state first that I am not a psychic and will do only a personality analysis. This approach usually goes down well enough, except once with a Baptist church that kicked me out of a bazaar on the grounds that as only God knows what will be, if I made predictions that would prove I was a harmless charlatan; therefore, not making predictions smacked of satanism.

My ethical dilemma relates to the fact that, as you know, many people want to believe in psychic powers, sometimes desperately. I am concerned that despite my not-a-psychic caveat and upbeat readings, I am contributing to harmful beliefs that open up emotionally vulnerable people to exploitation by predators. For example, a young woman came back to me after a reading, said I'd seen the real her, and asked me seriously if she should consult a voodoo priest who advertised in a local tabloid. I talked her out of it, but it was an unsettling experience.

I am a regular reader of Swift and even have a Randi doll that sits on my computer desk to remind me daily that there is still sanity in the world. I would value the views of forum members about the ethics of doing palm readings to raise funds for charities.

There are many ways to look at this, here are a few:

-With your disclaimer you are actually helping to debunk psychics, by showing people that it can be done convincingly using non psychic techniques. - Therefore what you are doing is a positive thing.

-The very act of doing this gives the suggestion of validity to the phenomena, even with the disclaimer. - Therefore what you are doing is a negative thing.

-The people who do not beleive your disclaimer, and think that you really are psychic, are going to beleive this stuff regardless of whether you are doing your act or not. - Therefore what you doing this has no effect.

-If you perform without revealing the reading to be fake, you are pomoting false beliefs in a convincing manner. - Which is a negative thing.

I think it really comes down to the way in which your perform. If your goal is to educate, then i would say this is not a bad thing to be doing.
Having said this though, i am not sure people would want to give you money for a fortune telling they knew was false. So preceding the demonstration with a disclaimer which indicated the following reading would be meaningless, would likely put people off paying. By the same token, revealing the reading was fake after it has been performed would probably annoy the person for having paid you money.
So to do this in a way that would be viable for fund raising, you would most likely have to present yourself as genuine?
Which would be a negative thing in my opinion.

Interestingly, as you may already know, this is how Sylvia Browne started also, but her stance was "Screw it, if people are stupid enough to believe it, i am going to exploit them."

this charming man · 30th September 2007, 02:42 PM

coldreader, have you watched any Derren Brown? As Linda says, maybe you could go the educational route.

Cuddles · 1st October 2007, 03:56 AM

If you're not pretending to be psychic, there really isn't a problem. There will still be ome people who firmly believe you just don't want to admit that the spirits are talking to you, but they are probably past helping. Everyone else will either get a bit of education in what is possible even without psychic powers, or will just have a bit of fun if they alreadt knew that.

Southwind17 · 1st October 2007, 04:06 AM

Acquire a clown's outfit and some custard pies. It's completely harmless, and such a laugh!

Miss Whiplash · 1st October 2007, 09:36 AM

I agree with Cuddles. You aren't claiming psychic powers. You are doing an act for charity. If you were doing slight of hand, you'd still find a minority who believed you used the supernatural to palm a coin.

To me, this is no different than the Halloween carnival when I was a kid. One afternoon a year, an elderly lunchroom lady became the Amazing Madame Zolar and read palms for the princely sum of 25 cents to benefit the school. Of course all readings incorporated our eating habits she observed, year in and out. "You will be happy and prosperous in life, but first you must eat your carrots. "

Ashles · 1st October 2007, 09:51 AM

I disagree with some of the previous posters - even by claiming to be doing a personaility analysis you are misleading.

Misleading people about their personalities can still be damaging (although in probably usually a much more minor way). They may well end up making decisions based on what you say, decisions they would be better off making by having actually thought them through.

I guess if your 'readings' are so neutral that they couldn't be used in that way at all then I guess it's not really a problem, but any form of deception in this way and pretense of knowledge that doesn't exist unsettles me a little.

Especially when we bear in mind how what people recall from these sessions is often greatly exaggerated from what was actually said.

TX50 · 1st October 2007, 10:02 AM

Just stop doing it! It's silly and all it does is help spread the "psychic" meme.
I'm sure there's some better way you could contribute to charity, if that's
a concern.

RenaissanceBiker · 1st October 2007, 11:15 AM

You should only use your powers for good. I once had a conversation with a couple of IT guys about a VB virus that showed up on a co-workers machine. I know a little VB so I was able to look at the code and figure out what it did. The older guy was just interested in reversing the damage done and preventing it in the future. The younger guy was a little too interested in how it worked and said, "One day I'm going to write a killer virus." I just gave him a disapproving look and said, "We must only use our powers for good." I can only hope he decided to follow my example, but I did make sure he didn't get a copy of that code that day.

Coldreader, you are in the same situation now. It is far better for you to only use your "powers" for good.

insidespace · 1st October 2007, 11:28 AM

I think this is a very interesting question. I have heard that people do things without knowing the reasons for doing them. So, although this person does not believe he (or she) is "palm" reading "really," nevertheless they may be!!

Everyone knows that *some* people, whether by skill or "psychic" ability, can read "things" like palms, tea-leaves, and the like. "How" this happens is controversial. Some say it is the "psychic energy" that comes through these people and it is not *really* the palms or tea-leaves. Others dispute this, saying that the palms and tea_leaves are the key. I guess no-one really knows.

However, this poster may in fact have that "psychic energy" whether they know it or not!!! So I would not feel anything wrong with this practice.

After all, no-one is "forced" to have their palm read, and even the most accurate and skillful palm reader would say they are not 100% accurate, so you can take it as you like, or not at all.

Remember, leaves are green because that is the light they do *not* use.

Hope this helps your understanding.

Apology · 1st October 2007, 11:32 AM

I think by advising people that you're not a psychic you've done your duty. As long as it's only for charity and you don't go pro/charge for private readings, I don't see how it's different than getting a reading from Lunchlady Doris (lol Vampire).

Of course if you're uncomfortable with it, you should stop. I would never advise anyone to continue in an activity that they found morally questionable. However, I think under the circumstances that you've described, it's all right.

Southwind17 · 1st October 2007, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by insidespace

I think this is a very interesting question. I have heard that people do things without knowing the reasons for doing them. So, although this person does not believe he (or she) is "palm" reading "really," nevertheless they may be!!

Everyone knows that *some* people, whether by skill or "psychic" ability, can read "things" like palms, tea-leaves, and the like. "How" this happens is controversial. Some say it is the "psychic energy" that comes through these people and it is not *really* the palms or tea-leaves. Others dispute this, saying that the palms and tea_leaves are the key. I guess no-one really knows.

However, this poster may in fact have that "psychic energy" whether they know it or not!!! So I would not feel anything wrong with this practice.

After all, no-one is "forced" to have their palm read, and even the most accurate and skillful palm reader would say they are not 100% accurate, so you can take it as you like, or not at all.

Remember, leaves are green because that is the light they do *not* use.

Hope this helps your understanding.

So you think the clown suit and custard pies suggestion is not a suitable alternative?

tracer · 1st October 2007, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by coldreader

When giving a reading, I state first that I am not a psychic and will do only a personality analysis. This approach usually goes down well enough, except once with a Baptist church that kicked me out of a bazaar on the grounds that as only God knows what will be, if I made predictions that would prove I was a harmless charlatan; therefore, not making predictions smacked of satanism.

Wait ... WHAT?!

You're a satanist if you DON'T make predictions?!

Big Les · 1st October 2007, 12:29 PM

I think you should absolutely carry on doing it, as convincingly as possible, and then spend as long as you did reading them explaining how it's all just a trick. Only the most entrenched are going to come away believing you in spite of your own protests to the contrary. The rest will feel silly and might resent you initially, but hopefully you'll have inoculated some people to the dreaded woo. Fighting fire with fire, as it were.

danielk · 1st October 2007, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Big Les

[...] the most entrenched are going to come away believing you in spite of your own protests to the contrary.

Indeed, as insidespace has just perfectly demonstrated.

TV's Frank · 1st October 2007, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by coldreader

When giving a reading, I state first that I am not a psychic and will do only a personality analysis. This approach usually goes down well enough, except once with a Baptist church that kicked me out of a bazaar on the grounds that as only God knows what will be, if I made predictions that would prove I was a harmless charlatan; therefore, not making predictions smacked of satanism.

Wait.

Let me get this straight:

Only God knows what will be, therefore people cannot predict the future.

If you say you're making predictions, you're obviously a fake and are harmless.

If you say you're NOT making predicitions, you're an agent of Satan?

Computing...
Computing...
Compu***ERROR DIVIDE BY ZERO***

EeneyMinnieMoe · 1st October 2007, 04:36 PM

I think the solution would be to be more careful about which audiences you play to.

I'd avoid certain churches because I think those people would be most suseptible to believing that sort of thing and, as bad as this sounds, any place where there are lots of middle-aged women to be found.

Blue Mountain · 1st October 2007, 04:53 PM

Part of the shtick is that the palm, crystal ball, card, tea cup, etc, etc is only a prop to cover up the fact you're cold reading. Instead of reading palms, carry an ordinary, everyday object with you and perform a reading using that. Do not let the person you're reading handle or even touch the object.

Perhaps you could even perform the reading using a newspaper article or a "Dick and Jane" book. That may be enough to demonstrate to the person that it's not the object that matters.

Southwind17 · 2nd October 2007, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Part of the shtick is that the palm, crystal ball, card, tea cup, etc, etc is only a prop to cover up the fact you're cold reading. Instead of reading palms, carry an ordinary, everyday object with you and perform a reading using that. Do not let the person you're reading handle or even touch the object.

Perhaps you could even perform the reading using a newspaper article or a "Dick and Jane" book. That may be enough to demonstrate to the person that it's not the object that matters.

How about a custard pie? At least you'll have something to look forward to regardless of the outcome! Oh yes, agreed, don't let the people you're reading handle or even touch it!

arthwollipot · 2nd October 2007, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Part of the shtick is that the palm, crystal ball, card, tea cup, etc, etc is only a prop to cover up the fact you're cold reading. Instead of reading palms, carry an ordinary, everyday object with you and perform a reading using that. Do not let the person you're reading handle or even touch the object.

Originally Posted by Southwind17

How about a custard pie? At least you'll have something to look forward to regardless of the outcome! Oh yes, agreed, don't let the people you're reading handle or even touch it!

Actually, the prop that sprung into my mind at this point was a magnifying glass. You could look at their fingernails, earlobes and hair, all the while making profound-sounding statements like "elementary" and "The game's afoot!"

Mensvoort · 26th May 2008, 08:27 AM

Hmmm ... interesting discussion!

Coldreader, your story and intents sound very sincere. And if you have some knowledge about hands and palm reading, what is wrong with sharing it with others?

I think your approach is quite unique.

Beerina · 27th May 2008, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Miss Whiplash

I agree with Cuddles. You aren't claiming psychic powers. You are doing an act for charity. If you were doing slight of hand, you'd still find a minority who believed you used the supernatural to palm a coin.

Randi himself does magic tricks all the time, for charity and for pay (well, probably not for pay anymore.) In any case, he never claims actual magic powers. There's nothing wrong with this as long as:

1. You don't claim real magical powers (don't know how loudly you must disclaim them, that's another question)

2. You don't abuse the faith of people who you suspect really believe, e.g. Sylvia Brown claiming some woman's kidnapped kid is still alive, when in reality he's already lying rotting in a gully somewhere, or vice versa.

As palmistry is a similar type of prediction and life-reading to "psychics", you would have to take a lot more care with #2 than a magician doing tricks you just watched would.

Ladewig · 27th May 2008, 01:07 PM

If it were me, I'd not do it. If I saw you doing it, I would neither endorse nor condemn you.

Ladewig · 27th May 2008, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by slipknot0129

after people die they can create their own realities depending on what belief system they use,

Great! I'm going to create a reality where I come back to life and am immortal. I would have thought that this created reality would have been more popular with the billions of people who have already died and created their reality, but surprisingly, Jesus was the only one to have thought of it. My afterlife is going to be Awesome.

Quote:

thats really the main point freedom of religion.

My, oh my, what a shaggy non-sequitur you have there.

Ladewig · 27th May 2008, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mensvoort

Hmmm ... interesting discussion!

Coldreader, your story and intents sound very sincere. And if you have some knowledge about hands and palm reading, what is wrong with sharing it with others?
.

In another thread, you mentioned the "possibilities regarding palm reading." Would you elaborate? Do you believe that things can be revealed by the shape and length of the lines in one's palm?

Lanzy · 27th May 2008, 03:11 PM

My daughter does the same thing with Tarot cards. Always tells her audience it is not supernatural in any way. Her close friends get a kick out of the reactions of her "clients"; but more often than she likes some people take it very seriously. She freaked a guy out so bad he was almost in hesterics, even after she told him her information came from just listening to his friends talk. She puts it in the frame of a party trick and is getttng really good. She has been advised many times to make money of it but steadfastly refuses. Oh, she has never bothered to learn the real values of the cards.

-Fran- · 28th May 2008, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Lanzy

My daughter does the same thing with Tarot cards. Always tells her audience it is not supernatural in any way.

I used to do that too when I was in my early 20s. It was just a game to me. I bought the cards because of the pretty art at first and then became interested in learning how to use them. I quickly got it that it couldn't work the way it claimed, and soon understood the cold reading aspect of it, though I had no idea that there was such a word back then.

I never claimed any powers either and never took any money from anyone, it was something funny to do at social get togethers with friends and relatives - indeed a good party trick and ice breaker or a good conversation starter I thought back then when I was young and naive

.

But I stopped it when I saw how people was taking it way too seriously. It wasn't fun anymore when some insisted I had psychic powers even when I told them I hadn't, it wasn't fun when friends and relatives told their friends and co-workers and people started to call me at home and I felt pressured all the time to do readings. It wasn't fun anymore when people came to me and wanted advice about really serious things as if they should get a divorce or not - I never wanted that kind of responsibility, or that sort of influence in peoples' lives. It also annoyed me that some people around me would never listen to me or my advice before, but with a silly deck of cards in my hands I suddenly was someone?

As an art project I did a hand printed table cloth for tarot readings that said in big letters "People believe in what they want to believe in" in Latin and used it in readings - People always asked what it said, I told them, and they just said "Ohhh" and went on asking questions

Sayings in latin are maybe "magical" enough in themselves to not let the actual meaning of it sway a believer

ETA: Forgot this

Originally Posted by Lanzy

Oh, she has never bothered to learn the real values of the cards.

I recognize this! I never bothered to do that either. I started to, but there was just too much boring information and too much to learn by heart. I was much too lazy to learn all that. I learnt the basics, and then just... blabbered on, cold reading style. Now and then someone I was reading for knew more than just a few basic things about tarot cards and noticed that what I said about a certain card wasn't what it is usually said to mean. But then I just told them, without a moment of hesitation that I was using a special deck of cards that had all different meanings, and showed them that some of the trump cards were different than in a traditional tarot deck (I used Crowley's deck, and a few of its cards are indeed different, I just had to show the few that were, and no one ever questioned that I blabbered nonsense no matter what card came up

)

ETA again:
To the OP. I would stop doing it if I were you. if you feel a bit bad about it now in some situations, you will probably keep feeling bad about it, because those situations will keep coming up. But it's your decision of course, I do not think you are doing something wrong per se, since you are not claiming it to be supernatural.

ETA again!!!!
Almost a year old thread...

Typical of me! If I could choose a psychic ability it would be the one to detect an old thread before I reply to it since I can't seem to be able to actually read how old it is

30th September 2007, 01:37 PM	#1
coldreader New Blood Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2	To read or not to read? I hope that forum members can help me resolve an ethical dilemma. When I was a teenager, many years ago, I looked around for something distinctive I could do to break the ice at parties and make friends. I hit on palm reading, mainly because no one else I knew was doing it and it sounded cool. In the course of studying palmistry I came across my city's bylaws against fortune telling. Forewarned -- in the conventional sense! -- I took care never to make predictions during readings. My routine was to tell the subject that the palm was like a map, showing them where they had the power to go. Then I'd proceed with what I later learned was a cold reading, always emphasizing the positive -- I was, after all, trying to make friends. My palm reading did have the social result I wanted, but after a while I began to feel very uncomfortable with how seriously some people took it. I stopped for several years and only started again when a friend asked me to do readings for a charity fundraising. I've since been invited to perform at several fundraisers. When giving a reading, I state first that I am not a psychic and will do only a personality analysis. This approach usually goes down well enough, except once with a Baptist church that kicked me out of a bazaar on the grounds that as only God knows what will be, if I made predictions that would prove I was a harmless charlatan; therefore, not making predictions smacked of satanism. My ethical dilemma relates to the fact that, as you know, many people want to believe in psychic powers, sometimes desperately. I am concerned that despite my not-a-psychic caveat and upbeat readings, I am contributing to harmful beliefs that open up emotionally vulnerable people to exploitation by predators. For example, a young woman came back to me after a reading, said I'd seen the real her, and asked me seriously if she should consult a voodoo priest who advertised in a local tabloid. I talked her out of it, but it was an unsettling experience. I am a regular reader of Swift and even have a Randi doll that sits on my computer desk to remind me daily that there is still sanity in the world. I would value the views of forum members about the ethics of doing palm readings to raise funds for charities.
coldreader New Blood Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2

30th September 2007, 02:06 PM	#3
schlitt Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,081	Originally Posted by coldreader I hope that forum members can help me resolve an ethical dilemma. When I was a teenager, many years ago, I looked around for something distinctive I could do to break the ice at parties and make friends. I hit on palm reading, mainly because no one else I knew was doing it and it sounded cool. In the course of studying palmistry I came across my city's bylaws against fortune telling. Forewarned -- in the conventional sense! -- I took care never to make predictions during readings. My routine was to tell the subject that the palm was like a map, showing them where they had the power to go. Then I'd proceed with what I later learned was a cold reading, always emphasizing the positive -- I was, after all, trying to make friends. My palm reading did have the social result I wanted, but after a while I began to feel very uncomfortable with how seriously some people took it. I stopped for several years and only started again when a friend asked me to do readings for a charity fundraising. I've since been invited to perform at several fundraisers. When giving a reading, I state first that I am not a psychic and will do only a personality analysis. This approach usually goes down well enough, except once with a Baptist church that kicked me out of a bazaar on the grounds that as only God knows what will be, if I made predictions that would prove I was a harmless charlatan; therefore, not making predictions smacked of satanism. My ethical dilemma relates to the fact that, as you know, many people want to believe in psychic powers, sometimes desperately. I am concerned that despite my not-a-psychic caveat and upbeat readings, I am contributing to harmful beliefs that open up emotionally vulnerable people to exploitation by predators. For example, a young woman came back to me after a reading, said I'd seen the real her, and asked me seriously if she should consult a voodoo priest who advertised in a local tabloid. I talked her out of it, but it was an unsettling experience. I am a regular reader of Swift and even have a Randi doll that sits on my computer desk to remind me daily that there is still sanity in the world. I would value the views of forum members about the ethics of doing palm readings to raise funds for charities. There are many ways to look at this, here are a few: -With your disclaimer you are actually helping to debunk psychics, by showing people that it can be done convincingly using non psychic techniques. - Therefore what you are doing is a positive thing. -The very act of doing this gives the suggestion of validity to the phenomena, even with the disclaimer. - Therefore what you are doing is a negative thing. -The people who do not beleive your disclaimer, and think that you really are psychic, are going to beleive this stuff regardless of whether you are doing your act or not. - Therefore what you doing this has no effect. -If you perform without revealing the reading to be fake, you are pomoting false beliefs in a convincing manner. - Which is a negative thing. I think it really comes down to the way in which your perform. If your goal is to educate, then i would say this is not a bad thing to be doing. Having said this though, i am not sure people would want to give you money for a fortune telling they knew was false. So preceding the demonstration with a disclaimer which indicated the following reading would be meaningless, would likely put people off paying. By the same token, revealing the reading was fake after it has been performed would probably annoy the person for having paid you money. So to do this in a way that would be viable for fund raising, you would most likely have to present yourself as genuine? Which would be a negative thing in my opinion. Interestingly, as you may already know, this is how Sylvia Browne started also, but her stance was "Screw it, if people are stupid enough to believe it, i am going to exploit them."
schlitt Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,081	Last edited by schlitt; 30th September 2007 at 02:10 PM.

30th September 2007, 02:42 PM	#4
this charming man A jumped up pantry boy Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: On a hillside desolate Posts: 1,117	coldreader, have you watched any Derren Brown? As Linda says, maybe you could go the educational route.
	__________________ Avatar animation by Paulhoff http://southernskeptics.wordpress.com/ http://southernskeptics.net Last edited by this charming man; 30th September 2007 at 02:43 PM. Reason: sweaty palms

1st October 2007, 03:56 AM	#5
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,597	If you're not pretending to be psychic, there really isn't a problem. There will still be ome people who firmly believe you just don't want to admit that the spirits are talking to you, but they are probably past helping. Everyone else will either get a bit of education in what is possible even without psychic powers, or will just have a bit of fun if they alreadt knew that.
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

1st October 2007, 04:06 AM	#6
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 4,465	Acquire a clown's outfit and some custard pies. It's completely harmless, and such a laugh!
	__________________ The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of all parts of my mind "Always" and "never" are two words that you should always remember never to use. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Why is it that when I ask for a pair of hands a brain comes attached?

30th September 2007, 02:05 PM	#2
fls Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10,236	Can you turn it into a lesson on how psychics fool people? Linda
	__________________ God:a capricious creative or controlling force said to be the subject of a religion. Evidence is anything that tends to make a proposition more or less true.-Loss Leader SCAM will now be referred to as DIM (Demonstrably Ineffective Medicine) Look how nicely I'm not reminding you you're dumb.-Happy Bunny When I give an example, do not assume I am excluding every other possible example. Thank you.

1st October 2007, 09:36 AM	#7
Miss Whiplash Nettlesome Harpy Join Date: May 2006 Location: 53 Miles West of Venus Posts: 1,583	I agree with Cuddles. You aren't claiming psychic powers. You are doing an act for charity. If you were doing slight of hand, you'd still find a minority who believed you used the supernatural to palm a coin. To me, this is no different than the Halloween carnival when I was a kid. One afternoon a year, an elderly lunchroom lady became the Amazing Madame Zolar and read palms for the princely sum of 25 cents to benefit the school. Of course all readings incorporated our eating habits she observed, year in and out. "You will be happy and prosperous in life, but first you must eat your carrots. "
	__________________ MondoSkepto "The Gin Palace of Rationality" "Bring me the head of the preacher man!" Siouxsie Sioux (Concerning my avatar) "...I was worried that someone that ugly would be dumb enough to put herself up for public ridicule." - The Atheist

1st October 2007, 09:51 AM	#8
Ashles Pith Artist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The '80s Posts: 8,711	I disagree with some of the previous posters - even by claiming to be doing a personaility analysis you are misleading. Misleading people about their personalities can still be damaging (although in probably usually a much more minor way). They may well end up making decisions based on what you say, decisions they would be better off making by having actually thought them through. I guess if your 'readings' are so neutral that they couldn't be used in that way at all then I guess it's not really a problem, but any form of deception in this way and pretense of knowledge that doesn't exist unsettles me a little. Especially when we bear in mind how what people recall from these sessions is often greatly exaggerated from what was actually said.
	__________________ With extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. - Jeffrey Burton Russell No one "proved" that a bumblebee can't fly. What was shown was that a certain simple mathematical model wasn't adequate or appropriate - Ivars Peterson

1st October 2007, 10:02 AM	#9
TX50 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,556	Just stop doing it! It's silly and all it does is help spread the "psychic" meme. I'm sure there's some better way you could contribute to charity, if that's a concern.
TX50 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,556

1st October 2007, 11:15 AM	#10
RenaissanceBiker Eats shoots and leaves. Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 6,810	You should only use your powers for good. I once had a conversation with a couple of IT guys about a VB virus that showed up on a co-workers machine. I know a little VB so I was able to look at the code and figure out what it did. The older guy was just interested in reversing the damage done and preventing it in the future. The younger guy was a little too interested in how it worked and said, "One day I'm going to write a killer virus." I just gave him a disapproving look and said, "We must only use our powers for good." I can only hope he decided to follow my example, but I did make sure he didn't get a copy of that code that day. Coldreader, you are in the same situation now. It is far better for you to only use your "powers" for good.
	__________________ "Truth does not contradict truth." - St. Augustine "Faith often contradicts faith. Therefore faith is not an indication of truth." - RenaissanceBiker

1st October 2007, 11:28 AM	#11
insidespace Scholar Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 89	I think this is a very interesting question. I have heard that people do things without knowing the reasons for doing them. So, although this person does not believe he (or she) is "palm" reading "really," nevertheless they may be!! Everyone knows that some people, whether by skill or "psychic" ability, can read "things" like palms, tea-leaves, and the like. "How" this happens is controversial. Some say it is the "psychic energy" that comes through these people and it is not really the palms or tea-leaves. Others dispute this, saying that the palms and tea_leaves are the key. I guess no-one really knows. However, this poster may in fact have that "psychic energy" whether they know it or not!!! So I would not feel anything wrong with this practice. After all, no-one is "forced" to have their palm read, and even the most accurate and skillful palm reader would say they are not 100% accurate, so you can take it as you like, or not at all. Remember, leaves are green because that is the light they do not use. Hope this helps your understanding.
insidespace Scholar Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 89

1st October 2007, 11:32 AM	#12
Apology Reader's of the Boden Codex Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,584	I think by advising people that you're not a psychic you've done your duty. As long as it's only for charity and you don't go pro/charge for private readings, I don't see how it's different than getting a reading from Lunchlady Doris (lol Vampire). Of course if you're uncomfortable with it, you should stop. I would never advise anyone to continue in an activity that they found morally questionable. However, I think under the circumstances that you've described, it's all right.

1st October 2007, 11:38 AM	#13
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 4,465	Originally Posted by insidespace I think this is a very interesting question. I have heard that people do things without knowing the reasons for doing them. So, although this person does not believe he (or she) is "palm" reading "really," nevertheless they may be!! Everyone knows that some people, whether by skill or "psychic" ability, can read "things" like palms, tea-leaves, and the like. "How" this happens is controversial. Some say it is the "psychic energy" that comes through these people and it is not really the palms or tea-leaves. Others dispute this, saying that the palms and tea_leaves are the key. I guess no-one really knows. However, this poster may in fact have that "psychic energy" whether they know it or not!!! So I would not feel anything wrong with this practice. After all, no-one is "forced" to have their palm read, and even the most accurate and skillful palm reader would say they are not 100% accurate, so you can take it as you like, or not at all. Remember, leaves are green because that is the light they do not use. Hope this helps your understanding. So you think the clown suit and custard pies suggestion is not a suitable alternative?
	__________________ The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of all parts of my mind "Always" and "never" are two words that you should always remember never to use. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Why is it that when I ask for a pair of hands a brain comes attached?

1st October 2007, 11:45 AM	#14
tracer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Silicon Valley, Calif. Posts: 1,356	Originally Posted by coldreader When giving a reading, I state first that I am not a psychic and will do only a personality analysis. This approach usually goes down well enough, except once with a Baptist church that kicked me out of a bazaar on the grounds that as only God knows what will be, if I made predictions that would prove I was a harmless charlatan; therefore, not making predictions smacked of satanism. Wait ... WHAT?! You're a satanist if you DON'T make predictions?!

1st October 2007, 12:29 PM	#15
Big Les Not so much a medium as a large Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 5,004	I think you should absolutely carry on doing it, as convincingly as possible, and then spend as long as you did reading them explaining how it's all just a trick. Only the most entrenched are going to come away believing you in spite of your own protests to the contrary. The rest will feel silly and might resent you initially, but hopefully you'll have inoculated some people to the dreaded woo. Fighting fire with fire, as it were.
	__________________ "Feeling you’ve done something is not quite the same as the empirical scientific proof." -Stephen Fry The BS Historian

1st October 2007, 12:41 PM	#16
danielk Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Berlin Posts: 1,077	Originally Posted by Big Les [...] the most entrenched are going to come away believing you in spite of your own protests to the contrary. Indeed, as insidespace has just perfectly demonstrated.
	__________________ "Our brains are capable of much more than we realize." - mayday

1st October 2007, 12:52 PM	#17
TV's Frank Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Champaign, IL Posts: 265	Originally Posted by coldreader When giving a reading, I state first that I am not a psychic and will do only a personality analysis. This approach usually goes down well enough, except once with a Baptist church that kicked me out of a bazaar on the grounds that as only God knows what will be, if I made predictions that would prove I was a harmless charlatan; therefore, not making predictions smacked of satanism. Wait. Let me get this straight: Only God knows what will be, therefore people cannot predict the future. If you say you're making predictions, you're obviously a fake and are harmless. If you say you're NOT making predicitions, you're an agent of Satan? Computing... Computing... Compu*ERROR DIVIDE BY ZERO*
	__________________ Problem-Solving Strategy: 1) Write down problem. 2) Think very hard. 3) Write down solution.

1st October 2007, 04:36 PM	#18
EeneyMinnieMoe Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,660	I think the solution would be to be more careful about which audiences you play to. I'd avoid certain churches because I think those people would be most suseptible to believing that sort of thing and, as bad as this sounds, any place where there are lots of middle-aged women to be found.

1st October 2007, 04:53 PM	#19
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 3,643	Part of the shtick is that the palm, crystal ball, card, tea cup, etc, etc is only a prop to cover up the fact you're cold reading. Instead of reading palms, carry an ordinary, everyday object with you and perform a reading using that. Do not let the person you're reading handle or even touch the object. Perhaps you could even perform the reading using a newspaper article or a "Dick and Jane" book. That may be enough to demonstrate to the person that it's not the object that matters.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

2nd October 2007, 01:06 AM	#20
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 4,465	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Part of the shtick is that the palm, crystal ball, card, tea cup, etc, etc is only a prop to cover up the fact you're cold reading. Instead of reading palms, carry an ordinary, everyday object with you and perform a reading using that. Do not let the person you're reading handle or even touch the object. Perhaps you could even perform the reading using a newspaper article or a "Dick and Jane" book. That may be enough to demonstrate to the person that it's not the object that matters. How about a custard pie? At least you'll have something to look forward to regardless of the outcome! Oh yes, agreed, don't let the people you're reading handle or even touch it!
	__________________ The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of all parts of my mind "Always" and "never" are two words that you should always remember never to use. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Why is it that when I ask for a pair of hands a brain comes attached?

2nd October 2007, 01:29 AM	#21
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,038	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Part of the shtick is that the palm, crystal ball, card, tea cup, etc, etc is only a prop to cover up the fact you're cold reading. Instead of reading palms, carry an ordinary, everyday object with you and perform a reading using that. Do not let the person you're reading handle or even touch the object. Originally Posted by Southwind17 How about a custard pie? At least you'll have something to look forward to regardless of the outcome! Oh yes, agreed, don't let the people you're reading handle or even touch it! Actually, the prop that sprung into my mind at this point was a magnifying glass. You could look at their fingernails, earlobes and hair, all the while making profound-sounding statements like "elementary" and "The game's afoot!"
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

26th May 2008, 08:27 AM	#22
Mensvoort New Blood Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 11	Hmmm ... interesting discussion! Coldreader, your story and intents sound very sincere. And if you have some knowledge about hands and palm reading, what is wrong with sharing it with others? I think your approach is quite unique.
Mensvoort New Blood Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 11

27th May 2008, 09:18 AM	#23
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Miss Whiplash I agree with Cuddles. You aren't claiming psychic powers. You are doing an act for charity. If you were doing slight of hand, you'd still find a minority who believed you used the supernatural to palm a coin. Randi himself does magic tricks all the time, for charity and for pay (well, probably not for pay anymore.) In any case, he never claims actual magic powers. There's nothing wrong with this as long as: 1. You don't claim real magical powers (don't know how loudly you must disclaim them, that's another question) 2. You don't abuse the faith of people who you suspect really believe, e.g. Sylvia Brown claiming some woman's kidnapped kid is still alive, when in reality he's already lying rotting in a gully somewhere, or vice versa. As palmistry is a similar type of prediction and life-reading to "psychics", you would have to take a lot more care with #2 than a magician doing tricks you just watched would.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

27th May 2008, 01:07 PM	#24
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	If it were me, I'd not do it. If I saw you doing it, I would neither endorse nor condemn you.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

27th May 2008, 01:31 PM	#25
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by slipknot0129 after people die they can create their own realities depending on what belief system they use, Great! I'm going to create a reality where I come back to life and am immortal. I would have thought that this created reality would have been more popular with the billions of people who have already died and created their reality, but surprisingly, Jesus was the only one to have thought of it. My afterlife is going to be Awesome. Quote: thats really the main point freedom of religion. My, oh my, what a shaggy non-sequitur you have there.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

27th May 2008, 02:08 PM	#26
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by Mensvoort Hmmm ... interesting discussion! Coldreader, your story and intents sound very sincere. And if you have some knowledge about hands and palm reading, what is wrong with sharing it with others? . In another thread, you mentioned the "possibilities regarding palm reading." Would you elaborate? Do you believe that things can be revealed by the shape and length of the lines in one's palm?
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

27th May 2008, 03:11 PM	#27
Lanzy Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 880	My daughter does the same thing with Tarot cards. Always tells her audience it is not supernatural in any way. Her close friends get a kick out of the reactions of her "clients"; but more often than she likes some people take it very seriously. She freaked a guy out so bad he was almost in hesterics, even after she told him her information came from just listening to his friends talk. She puts it in the frame of a party trick and is getttng really good. She has been advised many times to make money of it but steadfastly refuses. Oh, she has never bothered to learn the real values of the cards.
Lanzy Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 880

28th May 2008, 04:38 PM	#28
-Fran- Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,581	Originally Posted by Lanzy My daughter does the same thing with Tarot cards. Always tells her audience it is not supernatural in any way. I used to do that too when I was in my early 20s. It was just a game to me. I bought the cards because of the pretty art at first and then became interested in learning how to use them. I quickly got it that it couldn't work the way it claimed, and soon understood the cold reading aspect of it, though I had no idea that there was such a word back then. I never claimed any powers either and never took any money from anyone, it was something funny to do at social get togethers with friends and relatives - indeed a good party trick and ice breaker or a good conversation starter I thought back then when I was young and naive . But I stopped it when I saw how people was taking it way too seriously. It wasn't fun anymore when some insisted I had psychic powers even when I told them I hadn't, it wasn't fun when friends and relatives told their friends and co-workers and people started to call me at home and I felt pressured all the time to do readings. It wasn't fun anymore when people came to me and wanted advice about really serious things as if they should get a divorce or not - I never wanted that kind of responsibility, or that sort of influence in peoples' lives. It also annoyed me that some people around me would never listen to me or my advice before, but with a silly deck of cards in my hands I suddenly was someone? As an art project I did a hand printed table cloth for tarot readings that said in big letters "People believe in what they want to believe in" in Latin and used it in readings - People always asked what it said, I told them, and they just said "Ohhh" and went on asking questions Sayings in latin are maybe "magical" enough in themselves to not let the actual meaning of it sway a believer ETA: Forgot this Originally Posted by Lanzy Oh, she has never bothered to learn the real values of the cards. I recognize this! I never bothered to do that either. I started to, but there was just too much boring information and too much to learn by heart. I was much too lazy to learn all that. I learnt the basics, and then just... blabbered on, cold reading style. Now and then someone I was reading for knew more than just a few basic things about tarot cards and noticed that what I said about a certain card wasn't what it is usually said to mean. But then I just told them, without a moment of hesitation that I was using a special deck of cards that had all different meanings, and showed them that some of the trump cards were different than in a traditional tarot deck (I used Crowley's deck, and a few of its cards are indeed different, I just had to show the few that were, and no one ever questioned that I blabbered nonsense no matter what card came up ) ETA again: To the OP. I would stop doing it if I were you. if you feel a bit bad about it now in some situations, you will probably keep feeling bad about it, because those situations will keep coming up. But it's your decision of course, I do not think you are doing something wrong per se, since you are not claiming it to be supernatural. ETA again!!!! Almost a year old thread... Typical of me! If I could choose a psychic ability it would be the one to detect an old thread before I reply to it since I can't seem to be able to actually read how old it is
	__________________ Thank goodness there are such things as lies. Imagine if everything you heard was true! (Albert Engström) Last edited by -Fran-; 28th May 2008 at 05:08 PM.