Help me debunk biblical numerology - CT style

arthwollipot · 2nd October 2007, 11:15 PM

I originally posted this in the Religion and Philosophy forum, but some of the nice folks over there suggested that I post here as well, since you CTers have some experience in this sort of thing.
Someone on another forum posted this:

Quote:

GOD COUNTS
This material comes from Ivan Panin's little book, now long out of print called God Counts. It’s about the Hebrew text of Genesis 1: 1.

It is the most staggering collection of numerical facts I have ever read, and I can well remember the shock to my system when I first came across these.

This verse, and the associated facts Panin mentioned, alone proves the inspiration of the Bible. There are problems, of course, but this verse stands at the gateway to the Bible, flaunting the fact that no human could have contrived it.

That's a big claim. But I challenge any and all readers to do anything like this by whatever means you choose.

As you may not know, ancient Hebrew did not have characters which acted as numbers like 1,2,3... They used the letters of the Hebrew alphabet instead. So aleph stood for 1, beth stood for 2 etc etc. Any textbook of Hebrew grammar will tell you what the values are.

Genesis 1
1 There are 7 words
2 There are 28 letters = 7 x 4
3 The sentence divides into 2 equal halves.
The first 3 words contain 14 letters = 7 x 2
The second 3 contain 14 letters = 7 x 2
4 The second half divides into 2 equal halves
“The heavens” contains 7 letters
“And the earth” contains 7 letters
5 The 3 nouns God, heavens, earth have 14 letters = 7 x 2
6 The numeric value of the 3 nouns is 777 = 7 x 111
7 The numeric value of the verb created = 203 = 7 x 29
8 The middle word and the word after it contain 7 letters
9 The middle word and the word before it contain 7 letters
10 The value of the first and last letters of the first half = 42 = 7 x 6
11 The value of the first and last letters of the last half = 91 = 7 x 13
12 The value of the first and last letters of all the words taken together = 1393 = 7 x 199
13 The value of the first and last letters of the first and last words only = 497 = 7 x 71
14 The numeric value of the 1st letter of the first and last words is 7 = 7 x 1
15 The numeric value of the last letters of the 1st and last words = 490 = 7 x 70 = 7 x 7 x 10

So there are 15 features of 7 in a single sentence.

Have a go at trying to do something similar for yourself. Then stop and realize that Our Creator is just that teensy little bit brighter than us.

Can the wonderful folks here provide me with some ammunition that I can use against this numerological garbage? I'm not that great with number puzzles and to be honesst I haven't the time to sit down and come up with something myself. Are there any JREFers who have a ready copy & paste that I can pass on?
Thanks.

defaultdotxbe · 2nd October 2007, 11:19 PM

other than the claim at the end that a human could never come up with such an assortment of 7s (but one can find it apparently) whats to debunk?

Orphia Nay · 2nd October 2007, 11:36 PM

Hi arthwollipot.

It looks like they're cherry picking "data" any way they can.

Quote:

4 The second half divides into 2 equal halves
“The heavens” contains 7 letters
“And the earth” contains 7 letters

What's the importance of 2?

(Cue mumbo-jumbo.

)

They just threw the 2 in there hoping no-one would notice, or so you would go, "wooooo, another number, wooooooo".

Quote:

5 The 3 nouns God, heavens, earth have 14 letters = 7 x 2

No, they have 15 letters.

Quote:

So there are 15 features of 7 in a single sentence.

What's the big deal even if there are 315 "features of 7 in a single sentence??

Every point they make is a cue for woos to go, "woooooo", and that's all. There is no meaning or significance.

Gravy · 2nd October 2007, 11:45 PM

Here's some debunking that's specific to Panin
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/panin.html
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/panin_mark.html
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

Mathematicians' Statement on the Bible Codes
http://math.caltech.edu/code/petition.html

Extensive links and discussions of Bible code refutations from the same site
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/torah.html

Drosnin's The Bible Code discussed here, with some good links
http://skepdic.com/bibcode.html
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbiblecode.html
http://www.csicop.org/si/9711/bible-code.html

I wonder which is better for the obsessive-compulsive person: this nonsense, counting ceiling tiles, or picking at scabs.

Brainache · 2nd October 2007, 11:54 PM

I had my tenth birthday in the same year that my son (now 12) turned ten and I will have my eleventh birthday in the same year that my daughter (now ten) turns eleven.

Therefore I conclude that God is a complete loony. Well, either him or the person who invented leap years. Or me.

arthwollipot · 2nd October 2007, 11:55 PM

Gravy, that is exactly what I was after. Thank you ever so much.

Orphia and defaultdotxbe, you have also given me some ideas. Thanks to both of you as well.

Gravy · 3rd October 2007, 12:00 AM

You're very welcome, arth. We here at the CT subforum aim to displease.

boloboffin · 3rd October 2007, 05:35 AM

Division into 3 equal halves would have been much more impressive.

Ophelia: Small nit. The author means the words in Hebrew have 14 letters.

The Almond · 3rd October 2007, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by boloboffin

Division into 3 equal halves would have been much more impressive.

Ophelia: Small nit. The author means the words in Hebrew have 14 letters.

You think the author would have been so kind as to mention that. Actually, I have no experience at all in hebrew, so I don't know what the letters total up to.

As to the OP, the problem with numerology is that it rationalizes things after the fact. You simply can't predict anything with numerology. That's why it isn't a science.

Nick227 · 3rd October 2007, 07:34 AM

I'm pretty sure Panin's been fairly extensively debunked. Drosnin too. Holy Blood Holy Grail was a hoax, and The Da Vinci Code was written on the back of it.

But (!)...there are still guys out there who are interesting in this field, mostly former maths professors who seem drawn to these things in their twilight years.

Check especially Prof Vernon Jenkins...
http://nick2211.yage.net/2701.htm
www.whatabeginning.com/Misc/Wonders/P.htm

and Dan Gleason...
www.jesus8880.com
www.revelation2368.com

The weak points, or areas of contention, in these gematria and isopsephia-based articles are invariably (i) getting the original Hebrew or Greek spelling verified, and (ii) establishing statistical significance.

Nick

Nick227 · 3rd October 2007, 07:53 AM

Of course it's worth mentioning that the very first word of Genesis 1 is berashith - in the beginning. It's a Hebrew compound word made from two particles - be, in & - rashith, beginning. The numerology of rashith is 911!

Nick

The Doc · 3rd October 2007, 08:43 AM

This reminds me of Cartman's comments in the 9/11 South Park episode lol. Bible codes are right up there on my "crazy" list.

Nice links Gravy, btw.

Minadin · 3rd October 2007, 09:36 AM

Of course, it's silly to try and use the number systems of ancient Hebrew to try and come up with meanings relative to today, or any day. This is akin to some person in the distant future re-discovering Shakespeare's iambic pentameter and trying to ascribe some mythical meaning to it.

Besides, God didn't write the Torah in Ancient Hebrew, anyway. That's just the language the Joos used back then to convey it, because they hadn't yet discovered English, the real language of God. That's why everyone speaks English on Star Trek in the future, it's universal. (Unless you're watching Star Trek in Mexico.)

Of course, even English is just our best possible verbal approximation of God's Language. Scientists now know that much of it is mathematically based, which can be hard to render into speech. (How do you pronounce ∑ anyway?) When written, it's remarkably similar to a combination of PERL and LISP . . .

Nick227 · 3rd October 2007, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Minadin

Of course, it's silly to try and use the number systems of ancient Hebrew to try and come up with meanings relative to today, or any day. This is akin to some person in the distant future re-discovering Shakespeare's iambic pentameter and trying to ascribe some mythical meaning to it.

Unless of course they articulate a periodic universal truth in symbolic form.

Nick

Jonnyclueless · 3rd October 2007, 09:54 AM

Ya know, if we weren't stuck on a base 10 numeric system who's only advantage is that we have 10 fingers, we wouldn't be dealing with this.

Swing Dangler · 3rd October 2007, 10:21 AM

A book written by man is a book written by a god but man changes god's language to English to prove number counts in English prove god exists.

Can't argue with that...

rwguinn · 3rd October 2007, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless

Ya know, if we weren't stuck on a base 10 numeric system who's only advantage is that we have 10 fingers, we wouldn't be dealing with this.

Ya.
Ain't it a~~mus~~mazing how the man-made language and numeric systems can be used to show that "our way is the truth, and here's all this amazing stuff we had to make up to prove it!"

defaultdotxbe · 3rd October 2007, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless

Ya know, if we weren't stuck on a base 10 numeric system who's only advantage is that we have 10 fingers, we wouldn't be dealing with this.

we were made in god image, so god must have 10 fingers too

Quote:

A book written by man is a book written by a god but man changes god's language to English to prove number counts in English prove god exists.

Can't argue with that...

supposedly this is done with the hebrew version, and any good bible literalist will tell you the bible wasnt written directly by god, it was divinely inspired, so in this case ancient hebrew is "gods language"

i still think the main argument is that only god could put such numerology into a sentence, debunk that and the whole thing turns into some mathemetician 2500 years ago with too much time on his hands

Jonnyclueless · 3rd October 2007, 10:45 AM

I imagine God has a Yiddish accent too.

Nick227 · 3rd October 2007, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless

Ya know, if we weren't stuck on a base 10 numeric system who's only advantage is that we have 10 fingers, we wouldn't be dealing with this.

Hebrew numerology is usually base 9, as in Kaballah of the Nine Chambers. They didn't bother with a zero, a 0. They didn't even bother with giving numbers their own symbols for quite a time. They just used the letters of their alphabet and attributed values to each viz... aleph - 1; beth - 2; gimel - 3......yod - 10; kaph - 20 etc. This is where the so-called "secret" number systems of the Bible sprang from. Because words also represented numbers, whole systems of connection arose between words that had the same, or mathematically related, numeration. Thus achad, meaning one, is related to ahebar, meaning love, as both add to 13.

This correlation of meaning through similar numeration is usually known as isopsephia. The other use of numbers in the Bible is called gematria, where numbers are related to geometrical shapes. If you look at Genesis 1:1, and add up all the numbers of the letters in the Hebrew words - Berashith berah Alhim vath Ha-Shamaim ath Ha-Aretz (in the beginning created Gods, the Heavens, and the Earth) it comes to 2701. This number is a figurate number because it can be resolved into a geometric shape - a triangle. Furthermore it possesses "reflective factorisations" because it is the sum of 37 x 73, making it quite an special number.

Later on, the Hebrews, and the Greeks, started giving numbers their own symbols - 1, 2, 3, etc, and the old system of connections between words and geometric shapes became progressively lost from public view.

These things are studied extensively in some schools of Jewish Kaballah, Judaeo-Christian Qabalah, Gnosticism, and other areas of the Western Mystery Traditions. Guys like Pavin or Drosnin are quite unrelated to this. They're just freelancers coming up with their own theories.

The zero, 0, didn't show up until later, if I recall, and was even then the subject of much controversy, with the Greeks in particular concerned that having a number represent something that didn't exist was not a good start for any mathematical system

Nick

Viper Daimao · 3rd October 2007, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Thus achad, meaning one, is related to ahebar, meaning love, as both add to 13.

So God is a U2 fan. I knew it!

slingblade · 3rd October 2007, 08:02 PM

Quote:

I wonder which is better for the obsessive-compulsive person: this nonsense, counting ceiling tiles, or picking at scabs.

I prefer scabs, but my back is sore and looks like hell right now.

ETA: what I told Art was:

Originally Posted by slingblade

Ask over in the CT subforum, too. They have to deal with all the "OMG ONOES look how many times the numbers 9 and 11 coincidentally appear in a random series of events we strung together only because they somehow contain the numbers 9 and 11!!!!11!!!! Look, it just happened again, right there, ONOES!"

...and I'm wondering if that was anywhere close?

danielk · 3rd October 2007, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Nick227

Hebrew numerology is usually base 9, as in Kaballah of the Nine Chambers. They didn't bother with a zero, a 0.

How can you speak of a "base" if you don't have a concept of zero (though not necessarily a symbol)? Doesn't the term only apply to positional numeral systems?

ETA: Ah, I found it: Hebrew numerals^WP. According to that page, it's a "quasi-decimal" system using symbols for multiples of ten, but not a positional system.

Nick227 · 4th October 2007, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Viper Daimao

So God is a U2 fan. I knew it!

Yes. Bob Marley too!

Nick

2nd October 2007, 11:15 PM	#1
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	Help me debunk biblical numerology - CT style I originally posted this in the Religion and Philosophy forum, but some of the nice folks over there suggested that I post here as well, since you CTers have some experience in this sort of thing. Someone on another forum posted this: Quote: GOD COUNTS This material comes from Ivan Panin's little book, now long out of print called God Counts. It’s about the Hebrew text of Genesis 1: 1. It is the most staggering collection of numerical facts I have ever read, and I can well remember the shock to my system when I first came across these. This verse, and the associated facts Panin mentioned, alone proves the inspiration of the Bible. There are problems, of course, but this verse stands at the gateway to the Bible, flaunting the fact that no human could have contrived it. That's a big claim. But I challenge any and all readers to do anything like this by whatever means you choose. As you may not know, ancient Hebrew did not have characters which acted as numbers like 1,2,3... They used the letters of the Hebrew alphabet instead. So aleph stood for 1, beth stood for 2 etc etc. Any textbook of Hebrew grammar will tell you what the values are. Genesis 1 1 There are 7 words 2 There are 28 letters = 7 x 4 3 The sentence divides into 2 equal halves. The first 3 words contain 14 letters = 7 x 2 The second 3 contain 14 letters = 7 x 2 4 The second half divides into 2 equal halves “The heavens” contains 7 letters “And the earth” contains 7 letters 5 The 3 nouns God, heavens, earth have 14 letters = 7 x 2 6 The numeric value of the 3 nouns is 777 = 7 x 111 7 The numeric value of the verb created = 203 = 7 x 29 8 The middle word and the word after it contain 7 letters 9 The middle word and the word before it contain 7 letters 10 The value of the first and last letters of the first half = 42 = 7 x 6 11 The value of the first and last letters of the last half = 91 = 7 x 13 12 The value of the first and last letters of all the words taken together = 1393 = 7 x 199 13 The value of the first and last letters of the first and last words only = 497 = 7 x 71 14 The numeric value of the 1st letter of the first and last words is 7 = 7 x 1 15 The numeric value of the last letters of the 1st and last words = 490 = 7 x 70 = 7 x 7 x 10 So there are 15 features of 7 in a single sentence. Have a go at trying to do something similar for yourself. Then stop and realize that Our Creator is just that teensy little bit brighter than us. Can the wonderful folks here provide me with some ammunition that I can use against this numerological garbage? I'm not that great with number puzzles and to be honesst I haven't the time to sit down and come up with something myself. Are there any JREFers who have a ready copy & paste that I can pass on? Thanks.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

2nd October 2007, 11:19 PM	#2
defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Dark Side of the Sun Posts: 7,482	other than the claim at the end that a human could never come up with such an assortment of 7s (but one can find it apparently) whats to debunk?
	__________________ I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein

2nd October 2007, 11:36 PM	#3
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 28,361	Hi arthwollipot. It looks like they're cherry picking "data" any way they can. Quote: 4 The second half divides into 2 equal halves “The heavens” contains 7 letters “And the earth” contains 7 letters What's the importance of 2? (Cue mumbo-jumbo. ) They just threw the 2 in there hoping no-one would notice, or so you would go, "wooooo, another number, wooooooo". Quote: 5 The 3 nouns God, heavens, earth have 14 letters = 7 x 2 No, they have 15 letters. Quote: So there are 15 features of 7 in a single sentence. What's the big deal even if there are 315 "features of 7 in a single sentence?? Every point they make is a cue for woos to go, "woooooo", and that's all. There is no meaning or significance.
	__________________ Are you an ex-Truther? Please share your story. ~ The Australasian Skeptics Forum.

2nd October 2007, 11:45 PM	#4
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	Here's some debunking that's specific to Panin http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/panin.html http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/panin_mark.html http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html Mathematicians' Statement on the Bible Codes http://math.caltech.edu/code/petition.html Extensive links and discussions of Bible code refutations from the same site http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/torah.html Drosnin's The Bible Code discussed here, with some good links http://skepdic.com/bibcode.html http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbiblecode.html http://www.csicop.org/si/9711/bible-code.html I wonder which is better for the obsessive-compulsive person: this nonsense, counting ceiling tiles, or picking at scabs.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links Last edited by Gravy; 2nd October 2007 at 11:57 PM.

2nd October 2007, 11:54 PM	#5
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Knob Hill. Posts: 9,086	I had my tenth birthday in the same year that my son (now 12) turned ten and I will have my eleventh birthday in the same year that my daughter (now ten) turns eleven. Therefore I conclude that God is a complete loony. Well, either him or the person who invented leap years. Or me.
	__________________ Words cannot convey the vertiginous retching horror that enveloped me as I lost consciousness. - W. S. Burroughs Invert the prominent diaphragm!!!

2nd October 2007, 11:55 PM	#6
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	Gravy, that is exactly what I was after. Thank you ever so much. Orphia and defaultdotxbe, you have also given me some ideas. Thanks to both of you as well.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

3rd October 2007, 12:00 AM	#7
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	You're very welcome, arth. We here at the CT subforum aim to displease.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

3rd October 2007, 05:35 AM	#8
boloboffin Guest Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 5,001	Division into 3 equal halves would have been much more impressive. Ophelia: Small nit. The author means the words in Hebrew have 14 letters.

3rd October 2007, 06:41 AM	#9
The Almond Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,015	Originally Posted by boloboffin Division into 3 equal halves would have been much more impressive. Ophelia: Small nit. The author means the words in Hebrew have 14 letters. You think the author would have been so kind as to mention that. Actually, I have no experience at all in hebrew, so I don't know what the letters total up to. As to the OP, the problem with numerology is that it rationalizes things after the fact. You simply can't predict anything with numerology. That's why it isn't a science.
	__________________ "Perfection, even in stupidity, is difficult to achieve without a conscious effort."--pomeroo, JREF Forum Member

3rd October 2007, 07:34 AM	#10
Nick227 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Dorset, UK Posts: 3,353	I'm pretty sure Panin's been fairly extensively debunked. Drosnin too. Holy Blood Holy Grail was a hoax, and The Da Vinci Code was written on the back of it. But (!)...there are still guys out there who are interesting in this field, mostly former maths professors who seem drawn to these things in their twilight years. Check especially Prof Vernon Jenkins... http://nick2211.yage.net/2701.htm www.whatabeginning.com/Misc/Wonders/P.htm and Dan Gleason... www.jesus8880.com www.revelation2368.com The weak points, or areas of contention, in these gematria and isopsephia-based articles are invariably (i) getting the original Hebrew or Greek spelling verified, and (ii) establishing statistical significance. Nick

3rd October 2007, 07:53 AM	#11
Nick227 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Dorset, UK Posts: 3,353	Of course it's worth mentioning that the very first word of Genesis 1 is berashith - in the beginning. It's a Hebrew compound word made from two particles - be, in & - rashith, beginning. The numerology of rashith is 911! Nick

3rd October 2007, 08:43 AM	#12
The Doc Curing Stupidity Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,160	This reminds me of Cartman's comments in the 9/11 South Park episode lol. Bible codes are right up there on my "crazy" list. Nice links Gravy, btw.
	__________________ Author - 9/11 Mysteries Viewer's Guide http://www.911mysteriesguide.com Creator - "Screw 9/11 Mysteries" http://video.google.com.au/videoplay...24912447824934

3rd October 2007, 09:36 AM	#13
Minadin Hiding his Head in the Sane Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 2,473	Of course, it's silly to try and use the number systems of ancient Hebrew to try and come up with meanings relative to today, or any day. This is akin to some person in the distant future re-discovering Shakespeare's iambic pentameter and trying to ascribe some mythical meaning to it. Besides, God didn't write the Torah in Ancient Hebrew, anyway. That's just the language the Joos used back then to convey it, because they hadn't yet discovered English, the real language of God. That's why everyone speaks English on Star Trek in the future, it's universal. (Unless you're watching Star Trek in Mexico.) Of course, even English is just our best possible verbal approximation of God's Language. Scientists now know that much of it is mathematically based, which can be hard to render into speech. (How do you pronounce ∑ anyway?) When written, it's remarkably similar to a combination of PERL and LISP . . .
	__________________ Do not seek the truth, only cease to cherish your opinions. If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are. Support the democratic freedom of the people of Iran.

3rd October 2007, 09:42 AM	#14
Nick227 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Dorset, UK Posts: 3,353	Originally Posted by Minadin Of course, it's silly to try and use the number systems of ancient Hebrew to try and come up with meanings relative to today, or any day. This is akin to some person in the distant future re-discovering Shakespeare's iambic pentameter and trying to ascribe some mythical meaning to it. Unless of course they articulate a periodic universal truth in symbolic form. Nick

3rd October 2007, 09:54 AM	#15
Jonnyclueless Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 5,360	Ya know, if we weren't stuck on a base 10 numeric system who's only advantage is that we have 10 fingers, we wouldn't be dealing with this.

3rd October 2007, 10:21 AM	#16
Swing Dangler Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: United States Posts: 1,049	A book written by man is a book written by a god but man changes god's language to English to prove number counts in English prove god exists. Can't argue with that...
	__________________ "I would imagine that if you took the top expert in that type of work and gave him the assignment of bringing these buildings down with explosives, I would bet that he could do it."-John SKilling-Head Structural Engineer WTC-1993 Seattle Times

3rd October 2007, 10:22 AM	#17
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,426	Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless Ya know, if we weren't stuck on a base 10 numeric system who's only advantage is that we have 10 fingers, we wouldn't be dealing with this. Ya. Ain't it a~~mus~~mazing how the man-made language and numeric systems can be used to show that "our way is the truth, and here's all this amazing stuff we had to make up to prove it!"
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

3rd October 2007, 10:37 AM	#18
defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Dark Side of the Sun Posts: 7,482	Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless Ya know, if we weren't stuck on a base 10 numeric system who's only advantage is that we have 10 fingers, we wouldn't be dealing with this. we were made in god image, so god must have 10 fingers too Quote: A book written by man is a book written by a god but man changes god's language to English to prove number counts in English prove god exists. Can't argue with that... supposedly this is done with the hebrew version, and any good bible literalist will tell you the bible wasnt written directly by god, it was divinely inspired, so in this case ancient hebrew is "gods language" i still think the main argument is that only god could put such numerology into a sentence, debunk that and the whole thing turns into some mathemetician 2500 years ago with too much time on his hands
	__________________ I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein

3rd October 2007, 10:45 AM	#19
Jonnyclueless Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 5,360	I imagine God has a Yiddish accent too.

3rd October 2007, 12:58 PM	#20
Nick227 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Dorset, UK Posts: 3,353	Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless Ya know, if we weren't stuck on a base 10 numeric system who's only advantage is that we have 10 fingers, we wouldn't be dealing with this. Hebrew numerology is usually base 9, as in Kaballah of the Nine Chambers. They didn't bother with a zero, a 0. They didn't even bother with giving numbers their own symbols for quite a time. They just used the letters of their alphabet and attributed values to each viz... aleph - 1; beth - 2; gimel - 3......yod - 10; kaph - 20 etc. This is where the so-called "secret" number systems of the Bible sprang from. Because words also represented numbers, whole systems of connection arose between words that had the same, or mathematically related, numeration. Thus achad, meaning one, is related to ahebar, meaning love, as both add to 13. This correlation of meaning through similar numeration is usually known as isopsephia. The other use of numbers in the Bible is called gematria, where numbers are related to geometrical shapes. If you look at Genesis 1:1, and add up all the numbers of the letters in the Hebrew words - Berashith berah Alhim vath Ha-Shamaim ath Ha-Aretz (in the beginning created Gods, the Heavens, and the Earth) it comes to 2701. This number is a figurate number because it can be resolved into a geometric shape - a triangle. Furthermore it possesses "reflective factorisations" because it is the sum of 37 x 73, making it quite an special number. Later on, the Hebrews, and the Greeks, started giving numbers their own symbols - 1, 2, 3, etc, and the old system of connections between words and geometric shapes became progressively lost from public view. These things are studied extensively in some schools of Jewish Kaballah, Judaeo-Christian Qabalah, Gnosticism, and other areas of the Western Mystery Traditions. Guys like Pavin or Drosnin are quite unrelated to this. They're just freelancers coming up with their own theories. The zero, 0, didn't show up until later, if I recall, and was even then the subject of much controversy, with the Greeks in particular concerned that having a number represent something that didn't exist was not a good start for any mathematical system Nick

3rd October 2007, 02:17 PM	#21
Viper Daimao Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 498	Quote: Thus achad, meaning one, is related to ahebar, meaning love, as both add to 13. So God is a U2 fan. I knew it!

3rd October 2007, 08:02 PM	#22
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Quote: I wonder which is better for the obsessive-compulsive person: this nonsense, counting ceiling tiles, or picking at scabs. I prefer scabs, but my back is sore and looks like hell right now. ETA: what I told Art was: Originally Posted by slingblade Ask over in the CT subforum, too. They have to deal with all the "OMG ONOES look how many times the numbers 9 and 11 coincidentally appear in a random series of events we strung together only because they somehow contain the numbers 9 and 11!!!!11!!!! Look, it just happened again, right there, ONOES!" ...and I'm wondering if that was anywhere close?
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Last edited by slingblade; 3rd October 2007 at 08:10 PM.

3rd October 2007, 08:23 PM	#23
danielk Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Berlin Posts: 1,077	Originally Posted by Nick227 Hebrew numerology is usually base 9, as in Kaballah of the Nine Chambers. They didn't bother with a zero, a 0. How can you speak of a "base" if you don't have a concept of zero (though not necessarily a symbol)? Doesn't the term only apply to positional numeral systems? ETA: Ah, I found it: Hebrew numerals^WP. According to that page, it's a "quasi-decimal" system using symbols for multiples of ten, but not a positional system.
	__________________ "Our brains are capable of much more than we realize." - mayday Last edited by danielk; 3rd October 2007 at 08:31 PM. Reason: ETA: Found it

4th October 2007, 04:49 AM	#24
Nick227 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Dorset, UK Posts: 3,353	Originally Posted by Viper Daimao So God is a U2 fan. I knew it! Yes. Bob Marley too! Nick