Jacqui Poole Murder Case

[SteveGrenard]

Keen’s Challenge

Chris French greatly exaggerates the amount of scholarship required for an impartial assessment of the Dorr-Lethe case, but I won’t press the point because all he has to do his explain away a much simpler case which I have been investigating with Guy Playfair: an Irishwoman is badgered by the voices of a recently murdered woman she’s never heard of. She provides the police with 125 specific statements about the deceased, the murder scene, and the personality, appearance, route taken, method of entry and name of the murderer. Apart from a few unverifiable statements, all but one proved correct.

We have examined all the original documentary evidence. Apart from a very few statements, all must have had a paranormal origin. The only issue is where the information came from – the dead woman or the minds of the policeman who discovered the body, the murderer himself and the woman’s family. The dead woman was Jacqui Poole, and the murderer, Pokie Ruark, was given a life sentence at the Old Bailey in August, 2001.

Any non-paranormal explanation?

Montague Keen
London

[SteveGrenard]

Youens takes up Keen’s challenge (Letter in The Skeptic-UK, 16.2)

The case highlighted by Montageue Keen in the last paragraph of his letter (see The Skeptic 16.1) is a very interesting one, and superficially a paranormal explanation may seem the only credible choice. However, I believe an alternative account is possible. I’ll begin with a summary of the case.

The body of Jacqueline Poole, aged 25, was discovered on Sunday, 13 February 1983 at her flat in Ruislip. She had been murdered two days earlier on Friday 11th. According to newspaper reports at the time, she had been beaten, sexually assaulted and strangled in the lounge of her flat. There was no sign of forced entry and police thought it possible she may have known her murderer. More than 10 items of jewelry were missing , which the police were hoping would turn up and provide valuable clues. A later report said police believed the murder was premeditated.

One of the investigating officers, has written in The Police Magazine:

(http:http://www.polfed.org/magazine/12_20...2001_ghost.htm)

about an interview he had with 22 year old medium Christine Holohan. According to Bartters, the medium provided a great deal of startlingly accurate information. She had been contacted by a dead spirit calling herself “Jackie Hunt” (Mrs. Poole’s unpublished maiden name). She gave accurate details abut the murder scene including “the victim’s position, clothing and injuries. Batters admits Holohan was not 100% accurate, but out of 130 points more than 120 “now seem to have been proved absolutely correct.” She gave information detailing the age and month of birth of the murderer, along with skin and hair colouring, number of tattoos and details of his previous convictions. However, even more remarkably the medium, via automatic writing, wrote down the name “pokie.” Eighteen years later
on Friday 24 August 2001 DNA technology finally helped convict the murderer, Anthony “Pokie” Ruark.

But there are other facts that could point to another, non-paranormal explanation.

The medium, Christine Holohan, lived within 10 minutes of the murder scene and she was of a similar age to the victim. Holohan has never repeated this success either before or after Mrs. Poole’s murder.

The information she gave to the police provided no new information. Ruark was in fact already suspected by the police. The one piece of information that could have been of enormous help to the police was the location of the jewelry and in this respect the medium was of no help. She was also incorrect when giving the time of the murder. At this point I can only guess at a possible explanation but I believe there is one that has more credibility than spirit communication from beyond the grave.

Suppose someone strongly suspected or perhaps even knew that Ruark was the murderer and wanted to get this information to the police without being traced back (possibly worried about retribution?). They could have passed this information on to a local medium who could then obligingly tell the police. But why not just send an anonymous letter? Well, perhaps Ruark was aware of that someone else knew the truth and would immediately put two and two together, but this way the police would not be likely to make public their source.

Was there someone who suspected Ruark and wanted to push the police in the right direction? Yes there was. According to The Times 25 August 2001: “Detective Chief Inspector Norman McKinlay was already investigating the murder, in which suspicion over Ruark was renewed by a call from a member of the public in 1999” (my emphasis).

This of course may not be the true explanation and we may well never know --- unless someone comes forward. Other explanations are also possible. The medium and victim were of similar ages, and may have had mutual friends, or Holohan may simply have overheard someone talking about what had happened. However, I believe my first hypothesis is most likely.

Finally we should not forget that ultimately it was a combination of a diligent investigation by the police together with recent advances in forensic science that ultimately got a conviction and not a ghost!

Tony Youens
Derbyshire

[SteveGrenard]

Reply by M. Keen (dated: Apr 24, 2003)

A brave but doomed attempt by Tony Youens. His confessedly superficial examination contrasts with the detailed inquiries which Guy Playfair and I made when interviewing both detectives and the medium and examining the original records.

Christine Holohan lived well over two miles away, not ten minutes walk. Her
sole inaccuracy was a reference to Saturday instead of Friday as the night of the
murder. Whether the experience has ever been repeated is irrelevant to the issue
of paranormality, but in fact, according to Batters as well as Holohan herself, it
has been.

Ruark had already given the police a persuasive alibi. He was no longer a suspect
when Holohan was interviewed. As for the supposed inability of the medium to
provide a clue to what happened to the stolen jewels after the murder: in fact a written
clue, considered meaningless at the time, was provided: details will have to await
publication of our full report.

The idea that Holohan had received her information from someone not wishing to
Iinform the police directly is another good idea blown away by the fact that she
would have had to receive the information from five separate sources who were either
unknown to one another or mutually hostile, and included the murderer himself!
the police would hardly have been ignored of such an elaborate web had it existed.

The case was reopened in 2000 because another person, not Ruark, has been
accused of the murder. Advances in DNA technology enabled Ruark’s discarded
pullover, rescued by Detective Batters, 18 years earlier, to pin the crime. It was
Holohan’s uniquely detailed evidence, plus a spontaneous psychometric “reading” which
produced three strikingly accurate pieces of personal information about one of the
detectives, that so impressed Batters and prompted him to ransack Ruark’s dustbin
and retrieve the fatal garment. Without it the case would have collapsed.

Holohan produced a large number of statements, the accuracy and relevancy of which
cannot be attributed to any normal function. Premature judgment based on inadequate
first-hand knowledge and selective evidence is unwise.

Montague Keen

[Ed]

Steve, I'd call the Irish washerwoman a suspect. That aside, is there a verbatim transcript of the statements?

It seems, so far, that we have anecdotes. Where are those police reports? Are they not confidential? How was Keene able to get to them? If he could can not we, as well?

[SteveGrenard]

I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify a few things.

The sequence of events regarding letters and replies goes like this. M. Keen issued a challenge for sceptics to give a non-paranormal explanation regarding the Jacqui Poole murder case. Chris French invited me to respond as he knew I had looked into it. Keen has now replied to my letter which will presumably be published in the next issue. Having had a preview of Keen's reply I am in the process of replying once more. Chris French will then allow Keen to come back with the final word.

"Stumpy" is indeed a serving UK police officer. As far as I know there is no big deal over his identity which will soon be apparent. After (but not prompted by) my first letter he contacted me and we have worked together on the investigation ever since.

As it turned out our reply was rather lengthy for a letter so what we propose to do is publish our material on the Internet and then I will give a somewhat briefer reply to Keen's response in The Skeptic. One reason for taking this approach is because Keen and Playfair are publishing their findings following peer review. In addition to Tony Batters kindly allowing me to see his notes we (i.e. 'Stumpy' and me) have, between us, spoken to DCI Norman McKinlay and ex-Superintendent Tony Lundy and I have to say IMHO the supernatural explanation is looking decidely weak.

All the best,

Tony
<http://www.tonyyouens.com>


cc: Chris French and M Keen

[SteveGrenard]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed
Steve, I'd call the Irish washerwoman a suspect. That aside, is there a verbatim transcript of the statements?

It seems, so far, that we have anecdotes. Where are those police reports? Are they not confidential? How was Keene able to get to them? If he could can not we, as well?

Playfair, Keen and now Youens have talked with and presumably have viewed the documentation you mention above. This will be given in more detail in Playfair and Keen's paper. However, Ed, Tony Youens and our friend Officer Stumpy are looking at these documents from the skeptical viewpoint so I am afraid for now you will have to rely on their playbacks. Obviously pages and pages of handwirtten notes in police notebooks cannot be offered in original form to a mass audience here at JREF's forum.

I understand your reaction. How could the medium have alleged to have given so much information without being involved? I thought of this as well, if not as the actual perpetrator but perhaps someone who came to the scene, perhaps at the invitation of the Ruark, later. However since she shopped Ruark to the police, I would wonder why he wouldn't implicate her in return. Even now. Actually this points up an interesting side issue which is why mediums who deal in this area are in a precarious position and the few who go public are probably phonies
or yes, involved somehow giving them intimate details. Barring a normal explanation still others may not come forward because they are rightfully paranoid they will somehow be implicated.


I would think Holohan would've thought herself as playing a dangerous game if she were involved and use the medium's ruse to give her information.

[Stumpy]

Hi Steve

I think it is important to establish "the facts" before we get into this.

Can you clarify (via M.KEEN) what "original records" have been examined (typed or handwritten) and when these records were made? Is Keen referring to the original case papers compiled during the investigation?

Can we agree that the statement ".....that so impressed Batters and prompted him to ransack Ruark’s dustbin
and retrieve the fatal garment" is erroneous? Do we agree that Batters did not recover any items of clothing during the enquiry?

best wishes

Stumpy

[SteveGrenard]

Stumpy:

Tony Youens says above that Batters allowed you and him to see his notes. Presumably these would be the same notes.
In which case you saw them. In fact, obviously, I have not.

Steve

edited to add:

I cannot agree to anything regarding recovery of the pullover. You would have to ask Batters that question.

[Lord Kenneth]

A Google search on Jacqui Poole turned up nothing relevent.

[CFLarsen]

Steve,

So, you have nothing to back this up? Zip? Zilch? Nada?

Did you honestly think that anyone would buy your tale?

Same old s**t from you...

[Cleopatra]

I take for granted that the "original documentation" includes a detailed investigation of whether the medium was with anyway connected with the victim and her environment.

But of course since there is nothing available we cannot check that.

[Ed]

Dunno. I think that if a copper in the US went around sharing his notes there would be hell to pay. Again, one cops notes are only a part of an entire investigation. I wonder if this can really go anywhere.

[CFLarsen]

It's the usual crapola from Steve and his cronies. Rumors, allegations, anecdotes, hyped-up claims...it never amounts to anything else than self-aggrandizement.

[SteveGrenard]

Lord Kenneth:

Quote:

A Google search on Jacqui Poole turned up nothing relevent.

I agree there is very little out there on the internet beyond the links given in the above posts, plus of course, the following backgrounders which are pasted from Yahoo's UK site. Although not exactly "nothing" they shed little additional light on the case other than we already know from the above links and correspondence between Keen and Youens:

Telegraph | News
... is very gratifying to be able to help Jacqueline's family to ... After seeing the only murder case he failed to solve ... he said he was pleased for Mrs Poole's family ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../25/ndna25.xml more results from this site

BBC News | UK | How science caught up with killer
... Jacqueline Poole was strangled. ... Mrs Poole's husband Malcolm later remarried and moved away from London. But he is said to be delighted that her murder has been ...
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1459056.stm more results from this site

Psychic News New Age Tiscali
... Through her Jacqueline Poole was able to point the finger ... to convict Anthony Ruark of murder, as tiny ... Recollecting her involvement in this case Christina said ...
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/lifestyle/n...es/murder.html

THE FORENSIC SCIENCE SERVICE
... the Metropolitan Police find the killer of Jacqueline Poole, who was ... Dr Jonathan Whitaker had revisited evidence from the murder using more ... This case shows the ...
http://www.forensic.gov.uk/forensic/...1/24-08-01.htm

Observer | Gone but not forgotten
... responsible for putting away Anthony Ruark for the murder of his lover, Jacqueline Poole, 18 years earlier. McKinlay started reinvestigating the case on his ...
observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4606535-102280,00.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If nothing else they verify the existence of the case which seems that those not familiar with it wish to dispute.

[Cleopatra]

The case might be verified but look what the first link--Telegraph News-- that you provided say :

Quote:

A MAN who got away with murder for 18 years was jailed for life at the Old Bailey yesterday, thanks to advances in DNA technology.

( bold face mine)

You provided evidence that an old case was solved thanks to Science and not because a medium provided the Police with important info.

[Lucianarchy]

The story starts when Christina was about 12 or 13. “I was looking into cups and seeing things and thinking it was all quite normal and that everyone could see what I could.


“I soon discovered while on holiday in the Isle of Man that I was indeed different and that I had a gift, granted only to a few. I saw death in the cup of a 16-year-old girl who within two hours was notified of her mother’s death.


Eighteen years ago in 1983, Christina was living in a quiet place in England, called Ruislip Gardens, with her sister, Mary. She was working as a medium/psychic when the news broke of the murder of Jacquie Poole.


Jacquie (25) had been raped and strangled. Christina, like everyone in the area, was shocked at the tragic death of Jacquie. Christina never knew Jacquie notwithstanding the fact that she lived only ten minutes by bus away from where Jacquie lived and worked.


Within days of the murder Christine explained: “I became aware of a spirit trying to come through and as I was trying to earn a living I used my guide to hold back the spirit but she was very insistent and agitated “I was asleep one night and felt the blankets being pulled violently and when I awoke it was to find that my blanket was on fire, I had left the gas fire lighting, a dangerous thing to do.


“There was no one in the room only me so I knew that someone had saved me. I asked was Jacquie present and the light flickered and I agreed to allow her make contact.”


What followed for Christina was the most horrific journey she had ever taken. Jacquie showed me “her last moments on earth, every detail was shown as if in freeze frame shots, like watching a film, nothing was left to the imagination. Jacquie pleaded with me to bring her murderer to justice”.
http://archives.tcm.ie/carlownationa...7/story109.asp

[SteveGrenard]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleopatra
The case might be verified but look what the first link--Telegraph News-- that you provided say :

( bold face mine)

You provided evidence that an old case was solved thanks to Science and not because a medium provided the Police with important info.

If you read the correspondence of Keen as well as Youens' response you will see that no one disputes the fact that Ruark was brought to justice and convicted on the basis of DNA technology and not the medium's word for it. This is a case where the murderer was not caught and convicted for 18 years until such technology became available in spite of a medium's report to the police describing the details of the murder and the name of the perpetrator. The police dutifully recorded the medium's report but could not and did not act on it in either charging or trying to convict the perpetrator. Yes, it took the DNA evidence (not available originally) to do that.

[Cleopatra]

I wonder why the papers that refer to Tony Lunby and his house in Spain mention nothing about the above...

[SteveGrenard]

Lundy is retired from the police and lives in Spain.

[CFLarsen]

Steve,

Why do you post these claims of purported paranormal assistance in criminal cases, when your own links disproves you?

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Telegraph | News
... is very gratifying to be able to help Jacqueline's family to ... After seeing the only murder case he failed to solve ... he said he was pleased for Mrs Poole's family ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../25/ndna25.xml more results from this site

Quote:

"A MAN who got away with murder for 18 years was jailed for life at the Old Bailey yesterday, thanks to advances in DNA technology."

Not a peep about any psychic.

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
BBC News | UK | How science caught up with killer
... Jacqueline Poole was strangled. ... Mrs Poole's husband Malcolm later remarried and moved away from London. But he is said to be delighted that her murder has been ...
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1459056.stm more results from this site

Not a peep about any psychic.

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Psychic News New Age Tiscali
... Through her Jacqueline Poole was able to point the finger ... to convict Anthony Ruark of murder, as tiny ... Recollecting her involvement in this case Christina said ...
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/lifestyle/n...es/murder.html

Quote:

Detective Constable Tony Batters, who interviewed Christine and was the first officer at the scene of the crime, stated: Over a period of an hour and a half to two hours she went into a series of trances and she gave us information. The one common denominator was that it was all known only to the victim.

'I thought she was reading my mind because she described the scene exactly as I'd found it. She gave a completed reconstruction of how the victim was lying, what she was wearing and what her injuries were.

She gave us information about jewellery that was stolen and unusual things such as the victim wearing two of a number of rings. There was an extraordinary amount of detail. She was adamant she was only receiving information from the victim.

In fact out of the 150 specific details she provided, the only discrepancy was that she gave the wrong date for the crime, an easy mistake to make at the best of times.

If the psychic only told things that were known to the victim, how come the psychic didn't know the time of death?

If the psychic could give a complete reconstruction, how come the psychic weren't a primary suspect?

If all this was so precise, how come it was never used in court?

But, as always, stories like these have an explanation:

Quote:

"Feature taken from Psychic News"

Ah.

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
THE FORENSIC SCIENCE SERVICE
... the Metropolitan Police find the killer of Jacqueline Poole, who was ... Dr Jonathan Whitaker had revisited evidence from the murder using more ... This case shows the ...
http://www.forensic.gov.uk/forensic/...1/24-08-01.htm

Quote:

The Forensic Science Service played a crucial part in helping the Metropolitan Police find the killer of Jacqueline Poole, who was raped and murdered in her own home in London in 1983.

Not a peep about any psychic.

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Observer | Gone but not forgotten
... responsible for putting away Anthony Ruark for the murder of his lover, Jacqueline Poole, 18 years earlier. McKinlay started reinvestigating the case on his ...
observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4606535-102280,00.html

Not a peep about any psychic.

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
If nothing else they verify the existence of the case which seems that those not familiar with it wish to dispute.

Huh? There is not a shred of evidence in these links that a psychic has helped solve any crime, Steve. What is your point, then?

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
The police dutifully recorded the medium's report but could not and did not act on it in either charging or trying to convict the perpetrator. Yes, it took the DNA evidence (not available originally) to do that.

So, they didn't believe her, even though she gave information that only the victim could have known? Do you understand the implications of that, Steve? Gross negligence on behalf of the police.

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Keen’s Challenge
....
Any non-paranormal explanation?
....
Montague Keen
London

Errr....yes, Monty: SCIENCE!!

[Cleopatra]

Yes I read that and Telegraph mentions that Tony Lundy --who lead the original inquiry-- flew from Spain for the trial. This is an interesting detail but I find more interesting the absence of any reference to the info Lucy posted above.

[Lord Kenneth]

Don't you people know? It's the evil skeptic conspiracy! In fact ALL MURDERS are solved by the help of PSYCHICS, but evil negative-vibration rays from skeptics cloud the truth.

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard


The police dutifully recorded the medium's report

I am not trying to be argumentitive but how do you know that? How do you know it was not filed under "nut job"? Seriously, I expect that cas files are full of all sorts of crap. This sounds like an assertion without meaning necessarily adhering to it.

[Stumpy]

The link for Tony Youens report will be on-line within the next 60 mins (barring any technical disasters). It may be worthwhile in the meantime reviewing M.Keens comments, posted via Steve Grenard, in respect of this case in the original thread:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...&threadid=7420

Stumpy

[SteveGrenard]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed


I am not trying to be argumentitive but how do you know that? How do you know it was not filed under "nut job"? Seriously, I expect that case files are full of all sorts of crap. This sounds like an assertion without meaning necessarily adhering to it.

Ed: Please read Detective Batters' account in the UK Police Federation's magazine at the link given in Youens' e-mail above
and decide how or where the "report" was filed. This is the report that piqued Keen and Playfair's interest in the case.
This is how I know Batters recorded the medium's statement but do I know where and how it was filed? No.

Cleo: Yes, there are no Telegraph or BBC accounts online re the psychic's involvement in this case, only the UK Police Federation article I refer to just above is available online.

[Cleopatra]

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard


Cleo: Yes, there are no Telegraph or BBC accounts online re the psychic's involvement in this case, only the UK Police Federation article I refer to just above is available online.

First of all let's get something straight. I want you to be true. Regardless my personal opinion about mediums I read every information anticipating to be persuaded but as you understand in order to be persuaded I need logical evidences or logical theories.

This story poses me some difficulties, maybe I am missing clues.

For example, in the site of the Police Federation we have a reference to the trial that was held on Aug.2001 according to which the "hot info" regarding the medium were not disclosed to the Jury.

Why? I do not believe that the police officers that testified weren't asked in a detailed manner about the previous investigation.

I hope that you understand that if we had the references to the medium in the records of the trial, things would be different. But we don't.

Also, what mediums want most ? Publicity. Why Christina didn't came to the Press after the trial to inform the general public that it was she that has provided the Police with the important info?

[Stumpy]

Okay here is the link to Tony Youens report:

http://www.tonyyouens.com/ruislip_murder.htm

There are a number of glaring (and basic) errors in Keen's "meticulaous investigation. I will quote a few items previously posted by Keen under the original thread.

Quote:

Were it not for the medium's information, and the profound impression it created on the mind of the principal police detective involved, Tony Batters, it is very unlikely that he would have gone to the trouble of retaining a discarded pullover from the waste bag of the home of Ruark.

Emphatically incorrect. Tony Batters was NOT the principal detective involved, in fact, he WAS NOT EVEN A DETECTIVE!!! Batters was a beat officer who was first to attend the scene, he was retained on the enquiry to perform administrative tasks on the enquiry. Now Keen's repeated assertions to the contrary on have two explanations, either Batters is lying about his role OR Keen has made an assumption that turned out to be hopelessly wide of the mark, which is it?

Quote:

The case was indpendently investigated by Keen and Playfair and they talked to everyone involved

Incorrect, Batters had only an office based admin role in this case the people intimately involved in this investigation were Det Supt Lundy and Det Chief Inspecter McKinlay, neither of whom were spoken to by Playfair and Keen but have been spoken to by Tony Youens and I.

Quote:

The official record appears in the public files and court records or so I am advised and these have been reviewed

The records reffered to above have not been officially released by the Metropolitan Police for ANY review. How then did Playfair and Keen come by them?

Quote:

The psychic's account appeared in a police officer's dated notes, are part of the evidence in the case at the time

No record of the alleged interview with Holohan was submitted to the enquiry by any Police Officer.

Quote:

and (Batters) was a principal witness at the eventual trial

No he wasn't! He did not give evidence, he wasn't called as part of the prosecution evidence. He did turn up in his own time and observed the proceedings.

Quote:

At the very preliminary stage of the inquiry when Batters and Smith were interviewing Holohan, Ruark was not a prime suspect

See Tony Youens article. Ruark was the Prime suspect before Holohan was allegedly interviewed - this was widely known in the area.

Quote:

The conviction was based on DNA found on stowed evidence, a sweater and other samples from he deceased

DCI McKinlay who lead the re-opened case and has all the facts states that he has no knowledge of the sweater. The ONLY DNA evidence submitted in evidence was that taken from the body of the deceased.

The article by Tony Youens more fully covers this case.

Thank you

Stumpy

[Stumpy]

The link isn't working!

Go to www.tonyyouens.com, click on "sitemap" then the link entitled "Did a medium identify a murderer"

Will try and get this sorted!

Stumpy

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Why? I do not believe that the police officers that testified weren't asked in a detailed manner about the previous investigation.

Are you kidding? If I were the defendant's attorney, I would dig up this information and use it to sow doubt about the whole investigation.

Would it work? To an extent, sure!

This is a case of post hoc, pure and simple.

[Stumpy]

In addition, the statement that Batters recovered a sweater from Ruarks dustbin is totally incorrect. He recovered no such item of clothing.

Stumpy

[Cleopatra]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Are you kidding? If I were the defendant's attorney, I would dig up this information and use it to sow doubt about the whole investigation.

Would it work? To an extent, sure!

This is a case of post hoc, pure and simple.

Please Mr. Larsen do not interfere with the interrogation of the witness

Of course you are right! There is no way that such info wasn't brought to Court.

I cannot access the site Stumpy provided but I think I know why Tony Batters didn't mention anything of those in court ; probably he never testified because he didn't have a significant role in the case...

[Stumpy]

Hi Cleopatra

You also have to consider the fact that Holohan provided NOTHING that wasn't known already!

best wishes

Stumpy

[Cleopatra]

Plus the fact , Stumpy, that if the role of Christina was so significant her story would take greater publicity than Madonna's kiss... the whole noise that Media made was about the new roads that DNA tests open for us not about the role mediums play in resolving murder cases.

[Stumpy]

DOH! Damn internet!

Try cutting and pasting this into your address bar:

http://www.tonyyouens.com/ruislip_murder.htm

[Cleopatra]

I got in just by clicking on the link. Thanks.

Very impressive! It seems that the medium provided exclusive info about a person that was arrested within the first 24 hours of the investigation.... Right!

[Ed]

Pardon me for appearing jaded but it always seems to follow the same course. Breathless assertion by a decidedly interested observer, great debate on the assertion and details provided, battle lines drawn, examination of the real data, prosaic explanation.The fact, seems to be, that they had the villain in their sights early on and when technology allowed they nailed him. Is that about it? Also, the idea that a copper would have leeway in taking anything from a crime scene seems ludicrous to me. Nothing is ever a clear woo-woo win with these stories. One has to ask oneself "why is that so?"

Now, let us play copper. What does Mr. Monegue Keene have to gain by trumping up a story? Anything?

[Stumpy]

Ed wrote:

Quote:

Pardon me for appearing jaded but it always seems to follow the same course. Breathless assertion by a decidedly interested observer, great debate on the assertion and details provided, battle lines drawn, examination of the real data, prosaic explanation.The fact, seems to be, that they had the villain in their sights early on and when technology allowed they nailed him. Is that about it? Also, the idea that a copper would have leeway in taking anything from a crime scene seems ludicrous to me. Nothing is ever a clear woo-woo win with these stories. One has to ask oneself "why is that so?"

You seem to have nailed this non-story in a nutshell. The fact is that the "meticulous investigation" consisted of speaking to those who were likely to provide the desired outcome (IMHO).

Stumpy

[Cleopatra]

Well, Ed I thought about it myself.

That's why I attempted to approach the story backwards; from the end ( the trial) to the beginning : why those clues weren't brought to court? Which officer took the risk to hide such info from court and why? Honestly I do not believe that any police officer would have an interest to hide things from the court.

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Stumpy
Ed wrote:



(IMHO).

Stumpy

BS, give yourself more credit.

You know we, I, get accused of being close minded. I think I am more now than I was 5 years ago. But Jesus Christ on the Millenium Wheel WTF can you expect? What, that eventually they will construct some loony story that can't be disproven in a second? The woo-woo arguments are not so much arguments as intellectual erosion. You sort of get worn down to the point where you say "yeah, whatever". And funnily enough, there are always reporters right about an inch from the woo-woos.

I sorta can see the frauds' point. It is easy work, it must be intellectually stimulating, you can come out with ANYTHING and some loon will buy into it, there is BY DEFINITION NO SUCH THING AS DAMAGE CONTROL IN WOO-WOO LAND. They probably get to pick up chicks a lot more than your average sceptic. Plus they get to "peer review" each other's papers.

The news guys too are understandable. Hell, which is better 1) DNA nabs murderer or 2) GHOST FINGERS BAD GUY!!!!!. They have to sell papers.

I don't get the believers. They are like soylant green. Weird.

[Garrette]

About a year ago on TVtalkshows, a poster named Pete (whom I believe to be Lucianarchy under another name) posted the Poole murder case as a solid example of psychics solving crimes.

We debunked it then (Lurker springs to mind). I don't recall Steve being in on the conversation, but it is disingenuous of Luci to bring it up now as if he/she doesn't know any better.

This post and the next couple are nearly verbatim copies of my posts on that board (minor grammatical fixes and such):

Okay, this after a quick search. If I were in the UK, I'd contact the agencies and look for files from the initial investigation in 1983 and then re-opened investigation in 2001.

There are 3 sources supporting the psychic-solved-the-crime version. You'll find several websites, but if you trace them, you'll find only three sources that are repeatedly referenced. The first is an article by James Millbank that appeared in "News of the World" on August 26, 2001. The second is an unattributed article appearing in "Psychic News". The third, and most detailed, is the article written by Tony Batters, an investigator on the initial case; its title is "But Ghosts Can't Testify?". This article appeared in the December 2001 issue of Police Magazine.

Do a search on Ruark and Poole and murder, and you'll find other articles discussing the solution to this murder, but these other articles, amazingly, attribute the reason to science and persistence.

at news.bbc.co.uk you'll find "How Sciece Caught Up With Killer", and "DNA Cathces Killer After 18 Years," both dated August 24th, 2001.

at www.bucksfreepress.co.uk is "DNA Linked Suspect to Barmaid's Death" dated August 17th 2001 (a few days before his sentencing)

and at www.solvethecrime.co.uk is "Scientific Expertise and DNA Database Combine to Catch Killer," also dated August 24th, 2001.

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Undisputed facts of the case:

Jackie Poole (maiden name Jackie Hunt) was murdered on February 11th, 1983, in her apartment in Ruislip at the age of 25.

Jackie had a lover/boyfriend at the time: Anthony Ruark, then aged 23.

Ruark was immediately a prime suspect but could not be positively linked to the murder.

Prior to any meeting with the alleged psychic, Ruark "had already been interviewed as an acquaintance of the victim, he and his girlfriend having responded to an immediate police appeal. His subsequent arrest resulted from a lie in his witness statement that he was traveling by train at the critical time." (This is from the article that Batters wrote)

The investigation was closed down (not officially closed; unsolved murders are never closed in the UK) in 1984.

In 1998, the case was reopened. The Detective Chief Inspector gathered the original forensic items and sent them off to "the lab."

The Inspector also obtained DNA from Ruark whom he knew had been the prime suspect.

In 1999, the lab called the Inspector to say there was a match between Ruark's DNA and the semen found on Poole. Material found under Poole's fingernails was also found to match Ruark's DNA.

Ruark was convicted of the murder in 2001.

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Psychic Claims, as put forth by Tony Batters on behalf of Christine Holohan:

Within a few days of the murder, Batters and his partner were assigned to talk to Holohan, who had called the station and who also lived in Ruislip.

Holohan had been 'bothered' by psychic experiences since childhood.

Holohan claims in the "News of the World" article that "I lived in the area and had read about the murder in the papers. Then one night I woke up to find my bed shaking and the lights flickering. I thought: 'Oh my God!' then looked up and saw this blonde woman staring at me, tearing at my sheets in panic. Instantly I knew it was Jackie and she told me what had happened. Over the next few weeks she kept coming."

In Tony Batters' article (and remember, Tony is the one who actually spoke with her at the time), he says this: "She [Holohan] claimed she was repeatedly hearing the voice of a spirit who called herself 'Jackie Hunt'..." and "In a series of self-induced trances, the young woman gave us extraordinarily accurate details about the murder scene, as if she were reading my mind. I had been the first officer on the scene, where I remained for many hours. She described the scene just as I found it..."

First point: Note the SIGNIFICANT differences in method between the Batters article and the "News of the World" article. If Holohan were being visited by the victim and told what happened, then the "self-induced trances" are a sham. What is the purpose of a trance when the information is already known and needs only to be relayed?

Second point: The scene described in "News of the World" is a hypnogogic/hypnopompic hallucination to a T.

Third point: Batters admits that he knew the details of the murder scene prior to visiting Holohan. The interview is therefore "contaminated." If Holohan had written down all her observations without input from anyone having knowledge of the crime and forwarded them to a third party who then asked Batters to rate them, it would perhaps be impressive. Unfortunately, the manner in which this occurred leaves open the very real possibility that Batters was simply cold read by a Holohan who was either fraudulent or self-deluded.

And before you object that Batters' status as a cop would prevent any cold-reading, let me say that cops are as susceptible to this as anyone else, especially those with less experience. And remember: Batters was first on scene, hence, a beat cop, hence, lower rank and less experience.

I could go on, but there is nothing to indicate it is worth more effort.