Are America the only power that can restrain Israel?

[Undesired Walrus]

And has this been demostrated in the past?

other then seeing the deaths of 18,000 Arabs after the attempted assassination of two Israeli ministers as a bit harsh, I really can not have an opinion on the foriegn policy of Israel, given my lack of knowledge on this part of the Middle East,

But I'm for an eduction on this, and wondered if this is a practical reason for keeping ties.

[Ziggurat]

The US has a strong influence on Israel. Whether or not it's strong enough to "restrain" Israel depends upon what we try to restrain them from doing, and how strongly they feel they need to do whatever it is. Our influence is not without limits (how could it be?), but it has been demonstrated in the past. The first Gulf War is a good example: Israel refrained from retaliating against SCUD missile attacks because we asked them to. Our influence with Israel is also significantly stronger than the influence of most other nations, for rather obvious reasons.

[madurobob]

"We" being the USA?

I think we actually fund most of that Israeli "power" so, in a manner of speaking, yes we are the only ones who can restrain them.

Let the flame war begin!

[Thunder]

Israel would not exist if not for the money, military security blanket, and diplomatic influence the USA provides. But the USA has only been seen to restrain Israel in the most extreme circumstances. This is because most American politicians are either in the pocket of Jewish and Christian Zionist forces, or are themselves nuts.

[This Guy]

Originally Posted by parky76

Israel would not exist if not for the money, military security blanket, and diplomatic influence the USA provides. But the USA has only been seen to restrain Israel in the most extreme circumstances. This is because most American politicians are either in the pocket of Jewish and Christian Zionist forces, or are themselves nuts.

Would these be the forces that push the drive to the New World Order?

Or is that another force entirely?

Just asking

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by parky76

Israel would not exist if not for the money, military security blanket, and diplomatic influence the USA provides.

Don't kid yourself. Their existence would be less comfortable, but they have the means to survive, and if needed there are other sponsor states (China, for example) whom they could turn to, and who would be far less concerned about the plight of Palestinians than the US is.

Quote:

But the USA has only been seen to restrain Israel in the most extreme circumstances. This is because most American politicians are either in the pocket of Jewish and Christian Zionist forces, or are themselves nuts.

Your estimation of the reason for American backing is just as groundless as your claim that Israel couldn't survive without us.

[danielk]

Funny how Israel can be both dependent on the US and have the US in its pocket at the same time.

[This Guy]

Originally Posted by danielk

Funny how Israel can be both dependent on the US and have the US in its pocket at the same time.

Those Jews are trickstie!

[geni]

Originally Posted by danielk

Funny how Israel can be both dependent on the US and have the US in its pocket at the same time.

One of the side effects of lobbying. Disney would be another example (mickey mouse act).

Plently of militry contractors almost entirely dependant on the goverment but the jobs they provide means that they have significant control over certian senitors in certian areas.

[danielk]

Originally Posted by geni

Plently of militry contractors almost entirely dependant on the goverment but the jobs they provide means that they have significant control over certian senitors in certian areas.

Which means the senators depend on popular support by the people having these jobs. It boils down to figuring out who depends on whom more.

In any case I fail to see how this applies to Israel vs. the US. While the details complicate the matter, you'll have to resolve the question one way or the other. In the end you can't have it both ways. At least not when throwing around phrases like "in the pocket", which according to my (admittedly not native) understanding of English implies 100% dependence.

[Biff Starbuck]

Is it America's job to restrain Israel?

Is it America's job to protect Israel?

In many ways I agree with Michael Scheuer's comments recently on Bill Maher's show. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ohz0omUjIE

I think America is viewed badly in much of the world for acting like the world police and intervening in other countries. However, I do see the value of having allies and mutual defense treaties. Sometimes, countries do need to band together to defend against a hostile enemy that would otherwise pick them off one by one.

The stickier question seems to be in low-level conflicts or ethnic cleansing, warlords, and cruel dictators. At the same time many are crying for intervention to protect people in Darfur, many are also calling for the US to leave Iraq. From what I have seen, there is some overlap between those groups, with a segment of the world population thinking the US should do both. But every time you intervene, you end up with un-intended consequences. How many times has the US helped country with military aid and weapons, only to be fighting against those same people 10 or 15 years later?

At what point does America step in to a conflict or genocide, if it does not directly impact the US? What if the US considers it genocide, but the UN does not? Conversely, if the UN identifies a situation needing their peacekeeping troops, should the US contribute military personnel, even if they disagree with the resolution? I don't think most countries are willing to completely give up their autonomy and hand it to the UN. And the biggest, most powerful countries like the US, Russia, and China are the most capable of standing out on their own rather than following the collective will of the UN.

All that being said, since Israel is generally believe to have nuclear weapons, I could see where it might be in America's interest to help them in a conventional war rather than allowing them to feel backed into a corner far enough where they would annihilate one of their neighbors. That would possibly draw other Islamic countries into the fight against them, resulting in even more use of nuclear weapons.

I think America should help find a diplomatic solution to the tension between the Israelis and Palestinians. Not out of altruism, but out of self interest. In my opinion, peace in the Middle East makes life safer for the US.

[geni]

Originally Posted by danielk

Which means the senators depend on popular support by the people having these jobs. It boils down to figuring out who depends on whom more.

In any case I fail to see how this applies to Israel vs. the US. While the details complicate the matter, you'll have to resolve the question one way or the other. In the end you can't have it both ways. At least not when throwing around phrases like "in the pocket", which according to my (admittedly not native) understanding of English implies 100% dependence.

It does not. It means control not dependence.

In the case of isreal it means a combination of powerful lobying groups and a sometimes significant group of voters means that it tends to be in the interests of senitors to act in the interests of Isreal. This includes sending large amounts of cash and weapons to Israel without which Israel would have a hard time existing.

The lobyests and voter groups certianly have some links to Israel and it is likely that Israel has some level of control over them thus Israel has some level of control over US policty towards it while at the same time being to a large extent dependant on the US.


If you don't follow that consider the far less complex case where a bussiness man bribes a politician to give his company a contract. the company may be dependant on that contract to make a profit but politican is in the pocket of the bussinessman.

[Thunder]

Zig- what is your theory as to why the USA allows Israel to continue building settlemants, expropriating Arab private property to settle Jews, build the seperation wall, and discriminate against the Arabs on a regular basis?

Why does the USA veto every single anti-Israel Security Counsel Resolution in the UN?

Is it because "Israel is the only freedom loving democracy in the Middle East"?

Is it because "The USA and Israel share the same values"?

Please Ziggy, do me a favor, show me you are not a complete and utter moron and don't believe such naive garbage.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by parky76

Zig- what is your theory as to why the USA allows Israel to continue building settlemants, expropriating Arab private property to settle Jews, build the seperation wall, and discriminate against the Arabs on a regular basis?

Why does the USA veto every single anti-Israel Security Counsel Resolution in the UN?

Is it because "Israel is the only freedom loving democracy in the Middle East"?

Is it because "The USA and Israel share the same values"?

Please Ziggy, do me a favor, show me you are not a complete and utter moron and don't believe such naive garbage.

parky, that post was going so well before the last clause. What a let down.

To answer your question, I refer you to the 1973 war, and the restraint imposed upon Israel, without which the Egyptian Third Army stood to be, since it was surrounded in the Sinai, annihilated, pretty much to the last man. As it worked out, a cease fire was arranged (brokered by other parties than Egypt or Israel) before the jaws of that encirclement snapped shut.

It was a curious thing, the rush of aid to Israel, but once they were back on the offensive, the drive to stop the fighting.

The Cold War was a strange time, certainly. We now live in equally strange times, of a different sort.

DR

[danielk]

Originally Posted by geni

The lobyests and voter groups certianly have some links to Israel and it is likely that Israel has some level of control over them thus Israel has some level of control over US policty towards it while at the same time being to a large extent dependant on the US.
[...]
If you don't follow that consider the far less complex case where a bussiness man bribes a politician to give his company a contract. the company may be dependant on that contract to make a profit but politican is in the pocket of the bussinessman.

So, in a nutshell, you're saying that Israel is bribing people in key positions of the US government to act against US interests? I'd like to see some evidence to support this accusation that goes beyond vague references to legitimate lobby groups.

[Gurdur]

Originally Posted by danielk

.... I'd like to see some evidence...

And with better spelling, too. The assertions were getting horrible in their mutilation of the English language.

[ZENSMACK89]

This is how it works in a nutshell...

http://www.aipac.org/Publications/Sp...an-PC-2007.pdf

"First, let me again say thank you. Your support helped me win an
election, and even more importantly, to continue the fight for the
principles and policies we believe in." - Senator Joseph Lieberman
AIPAC Policy Conference 2007
March 12, 2007

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/0...-_n_51480.html

Sen. Joseph Lieberman said Sunday the United States should consider a military strike against Iran because of Tehran's involvement in Iraq.

"I think we've got to be prepared to take aggressive military action against the Iranians to stop them from killing Americans in Iraq," Lieberman said. "And to me, that would include a strike over the border into Iran, where we have good evidence that they have a base at which they are training these people coming back into Iraq to kill our soldiers." - Joseph Lieberman Face the Nation June 10, 2007

[danielk]

And?

[geni]

Originally Posted by danielk

So, in a nutshell, you're saying that Israel is bribing people in key positions of the US government to act against US interests? I'd like to see some evidence to support this accusation that goes beyond vague references to legitimate lobby groups.

A strawman I feel. Bribery is highly illegal. Campain contributions less so but still risky. No even "legitimate lobby groups" have significant amounts of influance and control if they didn't no one would bother with them.

[Gurdur]

Geni, you're not making much sense. Care to try clarifying, please?

[geni]

Originally Posted by Gurdur

Geni, you're not making much sense. Care to try clarifying, please?

I have clarified.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by parky76

Zig- what is your theory as to why the USA allows Israel to continue building settlemants, expropriating Arab private property to settle Jews, build the seperation wall, and discriminate against the Arabs on a regular basis?

Because we don't really care about Palestinians - need we have any other reason to explain that? I don't see why. And why should we care about them? They demonstrate themselves to be our enemies at pretty much every opportunity. Is it any surprise we're not trying to look out for their interests?

As for discrimination against Arab Israeli civilians, well, we're not exactly in a position to stop that, are we? So where do you get off claiming that we "allow" them to do so? Civil rights legislation in the US didn't exactly end racism here, did it?

Quote:

Why does the USA veto every single anti-Israel Security Counsel Resolution in the UN?

Because they're an ally, and the resolutions aren't warranted.

Quote:

Is it because "Israel is the only freedom loving democracy in the Middle East"?

It helps quite a bit that they're a democracy, yes. It makes them a much better ally than any other country in the region. Do you think there are any more democratic countries in the region?

Quote:

Is it because "The USA and Israel share the same values"?

Much more than any other country in the region, yes. Do you think there are any countries in the region with values closer to ours?

Quote:

Please Ziggy, do me a favor, show me you are not a complete and utter moron and don't believe such naive garbage.

I'm not the one under the impression that Israel cannot survive without the US. They can. And they would. China would happily step into our shoes in exchange for Israeli military technology. And you've provided no argument for why you think they cannot survive without us. Who, exactly, do you think would destroy them?

[geni]

Quote:

It helps quite a bit that they're a democracy, yes. It makes them a much better ally than any other country in the region. Do you think there are any more democratic countries in the region?

When not at war lebanon tends towards democracy. Since war tends to be the ground state there that doesn't mean a vast amount.

Quote:

I'm not the one under the impression that Israel cannot survive without the US. They can. And they would. China would happily step into our shoes in exchange for Israeli military technology. And you've provided no argument for why you think they cannot survive without us. Who, exactly, do you think would destroy them?

These days no one. Not really in anyone's interests to do so. Soviet union was a threat back in the day (and there are a few hints that the soviets had some influnce over israel in the old fashion do not go beyond this point way)

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by parky76

Israel would not exist if not for the money, military security blanket, and diplomatic influence the USA provides. But the USA has only been seen to restrain Israel in the most extreme circumstances. This is because most American politicians are either in the pocket of Jewish and Christian Zionist forces, or are themselves nuts.

"Nuts" in sparky's terminology meaning: supporting people in their elimination of thugs, murderers, terrorists who even care nothing about their own people and would happily kill us if they could - instead of supporting sparkys side: the thugs, murderers, terrorists. Fell free to correct any misstatements here with firm proof (not opinion) that Hezbollah, Fatah, PLO,etc. are unarmed happy people who constantly hide in fear because Israelis are shooting (Arab made/Russian made) rockets and missiles at themselves so they have an excuse to kill civilians who happen to be having tea with the Hezbollah, Fatah, PLO at the time.

[steverino]

Originally Posted by parky76

Israel would not exist if not for the money, military security blanket, and diplomatic influence the USA provides. But the USA has only been seen to restrain Israel in the most extreme circumstances. This is because most American politicians are either in the pocket of Jewish and Christian Zionist forces, or are themselves nuts.

Snarky- I just can't believe you are Jewish. Show me your penis.